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Author Topic: interesting article: "Mike Love states his case"  (Read 105870 times)
Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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« Reply #575 on: March 11, 2015, 12:30:27 PM »

VDP once told me his name was indeed on a SMiLE song he had nothing to do with--and I'm pretty sure it was "Wind Chimes".

He also told me that he was definitely NOT the man behind the lyrics to "He Gives Speeches".

Wasn't it Wonderful that had the come-and-go credit?


No, it was Wind Chimes. Makes sense. The lyrics to WC are very simplistic and straightforward. Nothing at all like the dense, reference-ridden and open to a million interpretations poetry as the rest of the songs. Wonderful is definitely in his style though. Along with Surfs Up it's probably the least straightforward song on the album, lyrics wise. I'd be absolutely shocked to learn that anyone else wrote that.

He Gives Speeches certainly sounds like his writing too. I guess he didn't write it if he says he didn't. But perhaps he's misremembering? If not, then Brian must have wrote it in an intentional nod to VDP's style. But even that I find hard to believe.
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& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #576 on: March 11, 2015, 12:50:36 PM »

VDP once told me his name was indeed on a SMiLE song he had nothing to do with--and I'm pretty sure it was "Wind Chimes".

He also told me that he was definitely NOT the man behind the lyrics to "He Gives Speeches".

Wasn't it Wonderful that had the come-and-go credit?


No, it was Wind Chimes. Makes sense. The lyrics to WC are very simplistic and straightforward. Nothing at all like the dense, reference-ridden and open to a million interpretations poetry as the rest of the songs. Wonderful is definitely in his style though. Along with Surfs Up it's probably the least straightforward song on the album, lyrics wise. I'd be absolutely shocked to learn that anyone else wrote that.

He Gives Speeches certainly sounds like his writing too. I guess he didn't write it if he says he didn't. But perhaps he's misremembering? If not, then Brian must have wrote it in an intentional nod to VDP's style. But even that I find hard to believe.

I'm pretty sure Windchimes was not credited to Parks on the SS album or the Wild Honey single in 1967. Buehler?

Wasn't Parks credited for Wonderful and then he wasn't and then he was?
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« Reply #577 on: March 11, 2015, 01:00:13 PM »

VDP once told me his name was indeed on a SMiLE song he had nothing to do with--and I'm pretty sure it was "Wind Chimes".

He also told me that he was definitely NOT the man behind the lyrics to "He Gives Speeches".

Wasn't it Wonderful that had the come-and-go credit?


No, it was Wind Chimes. Makes sense. The lyrics to WC are very simplistic and straightforward. Nothing at all like the dense, reference-ridden and open to a million interpretations poetry as the rest of the songs. Wonderful is definitely in his style though. Along with Surfs Up it's probably the least straightforward song on the album, lyrics wise. I'd be absolutely shocked to learn that anyone else wrote that.

He Gives Speeches certainly sounds like his writing too. I guess he didn't write it if he says he didn't. But perhaps he's misremembering? If not, then Brian must have wrote it in an intentional nod to VDP's style. But even that I find hard to believe.

I'm pretty sure Windchimes was not credited to Parks on the SS album or the Wild Honey single in 1967. Buehler?

Wasn't Parks credited for Wonderful and then he wasn't and then he was?

Exactly. But he *was* credited in 2004. Isn't that the discrepancy?

If the Wonderful credit has gone back and forth, it's news to me. Regardless, there can be no doubt that those are Van Dyke's words.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #578 on: March 11, 2015, 01:05:12 PM »

VDP once told me his name was indeed on a SMiLE song he had nothing to do with--and I'm pretty sure it was "Wind Chimes".

He also told me that he was definitely NOT the man behind the lyrics to "He Gives Speeches".

Wasn't it Wonderful that had the come-and-go credit?


No, it was Wind Chimes. Makes sense. The lyrics to WC are very simplistic and straightforward. Nothing at all like the dense, reference-ridden and open to a million interpretations poetry as the rest of the songs. Wonderful is definitely in his style though. Along with Surfs Up it's probably the least straightforward song on the album, lyrics wise. I'd be absolutely shocked to learn that anyone else wrote that.

He Gives Speeches certainly sounds like his writing too. I guess he didn't write it if he says he didn't. But perhaps he's misremembering? If not, then Brian must have wrote it in an intentional nod to VDP's style. But even that I find hard to believe.

I'm pretty sure Windchimes was not credited to Parks on the SS album or the Wild Honey single in 1967. Buehler?

Wasn't Parks credited for Wonderful and then he wasn't and then he was?

Exactly. But he *was* credited in 2004. Isn't that the discrepancy?

If the Wonderful credit has gone back and forth, it's news to me. Regardless, there can be no doubt that those are Van Dyke's words.

Yes, you're right, I got it backwards. He wasn't credited for Wonderful in 1967, then he was and wasn't later. Edit: Or maybe I'm wrong about that too, it just seems to me that VDP was left off the credit for Wonderful on some comp or re-issue.

So you might not get credited if you deserved it in 1967 but you wouldn't get credited if you didn't. Mike was credited with Mama Says in 1967.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 01:12:58 PM by Cam Mott » Logged

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« Reply #579 on: March 11, 2015, 01:37:06 PM »

So you might not get credited if you deserved it in 1967 but you wouldn't get credited if you didn't. Mike was credited with Mama Says in 1967.

This is astoundingly specious reasoning. In 1967? You mean something was going on that particular year that made it so that people who deserved credit might not get it but prevented the possibility that people could ever get credit without deserving it? So if Wild Honey came out a few months later in 1968, then it could be possible that Mike got undeserved credit but definitely not in 1967 since this one other example suggests that it in 1967 it was simply not a possibility that you could ever be credited for a song you didn't write? Is that what you are arguing here?

Can we not just as easily conclude from this example of Parks that people just got credits wrong period not that people got credits wrong in a particular kind of way in a particular year?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 01:42:46 PM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
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« Reply #580 on: March 11, 2015, 01:47:17 PM »

He Gives Speeches certainly sounds like his writing too. I guess he didn't write it if he says he didn't. But perhaps he's misremembering? If not, then Brian must have wrote it in an intentional nod to VDP's style. But even that I find hard to believe.

I'm with you. I can't imagine who else would have written it? And even though this conversation attests to the fact that the credits around this period were a bit up in the air, Parks's credit on She's Goin' Bald just lends more evidence to the probability that Van Dyke wrote those lyrics. I mean, it was so long ago and He Gives Speeches seemed to be treated as a throwaway in the Smile recordings (a fragment, dealt with once and then never returned to during the Smile period, only to be re-written substantially on SS), it could have just been such an insignificant, spur of the moment kind of thing that it was easily something that was forgotten.

The question I'd like someone to ask Van Dyke is if he ever wrote any lyrics to Child is Father of the Man in 1966.
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« Reply #581 on: March 11, 2015, 02:05:45 PM »

"Just a few years ago, Don Was made me aware of the fact that my name wasn't on 'Windchimes, and wasn't on 'Wonderful'. He said, 'Didn't you write those songs?' Yes, I worked on those songs. But that just points out my own oblivion on the about the situation, that I'd been distanced that much by the painful recollection of that period and didn't want to think about it".

"I went up to Brian's in 2003 to work further on the project, and that's when I pointed out to him that I was uncomfortable about not being given credit for working on those songs. Brian came into the room when I was talking to Melinda and said 'Well, what is it?'. She said 'Well, Van Dyke was not credited for this thing that we were talking about'.  He said, 'Did you work on Wind Chimes?'. And I said 'Yes I did Brian. I wrote the lyrics for that'. He said 'You wouldn't lie to me, would you?'. And all of this stuff about Mike Love providing lyrics so many years ago, and the recent lawsuits-all of that came back. But in spite of that, and the appearance of appearing mercenary, I had to say 'No, I wouldn't lie to you. I did work on those songs'. So they just changed. That's so crazy".

From Smile: The Story of Brian Wilson's Lost Masterpiece
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 02:10:38 PM by Mr. Verlander » Logged
Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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« Reply #582 on: March 11, 2015, 02:35:46 PM »

He Gives Speeches certainly sounds like his writing too. I guess he didn't write it if he says he didn't. But perhaps he's misremembering? If not, then Brian must have wrote it in an intentional nod to VDP's style. But even that I find hard to believe.

I'm with you. I can't imagine who else would have written it? And even though this conversation attests to the fact that the credits around this period were a bit up in the air, Parks's credit on She's Goin' Bald just lends more evidence to the probability that Van Dyke wrote those lyrics. I mean, it was so long ago and He Gives Speeches seemed to be treated as a throwaway in the Smile recordings (a fragment, dealt with once and then never returned to during the Smile period, only to be re-written substantially on SS), it could have just been such an insignificant, spur of the moment kind of thing that it was easily something that was forgotten.

The question I'd like someone to ask Van Dyke is if he ever wrote any lyrics to Child is Father of the Man in 1966.

That's sound reasoning. Makes more sense than any other scenario I could imagine.

I'd like to know what the lyrics for Look were, if there were additional lyrics written and recorded for I'm in Great Shape and, obviously, if Van Dyke wrote them. I don't believe for a second that the BWPS vocals for Look or Child were definitive '66. Way below the SMiLE standard. Even the child lyrics written for project smile are way better.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #583 on: March 11, 2015, 05:15:11 PM »

So you might not get credited if you deserved it in 1967 but you wouldn't get credited if you didn't. Mike was credited with Mama Says in 1967.

This is astoundingly specious reasoning. In 1967? You mean something was going on that particular year that made it so that people who deserved credit might not get it but prevented the possibility that people could ever get credit without deserving it? So if Wild Honey came out a few months later in 1968, then it could be possible that Mike got undeserved credit but definitely not in 1967 since this one other example suggests that it in 1967 it was simply not a possibility that you could ever be credited for a song you didn't write? Is that what you are arguing here?

Can we not just as easily conclude from this example of Parks that people just got credits wrong period not that people got credits wrong in a particular kind of way in a particular year?

1967 because that's when the songs in question happened and were documented, not in 1968 or 45+ years after the fact.

You could easily conclude that but it might be astoundingly specious, since at the time so far there is only evidence that the "mistakes" made were in not crediting co-authors that deserved it with no examples of a co-author being incorrectly credited with something he didn't deserve.
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« Reply #584 on: March 11, 2015, 10:55:44 PM »

I'd like to know what the lyrics for Look were, if there were additional lyrics written and recorded for I'm in Great Shape and, obviously, if Van Dyke wrote them. I don't believe for a second that the BWPS vocals for Look or Child were definitive '66. Way below the SMiLE standard. Even the child lyrics written for project smile are way better.

I faintly remember reading there were no lyrics for Look in 1967, there were some for CIFOTM but they were lost. So you're right in believing the Look/CIFOTM lyrics aren't from 1966.

I wouldn't say though they are below the standard of the 1966 penned lyrics, they're just surprisingly short. The older lyrics have far more words per bar, if you will. Smiley
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« Reply #585 on: March 12, 2015, 12:43:11 AM »

I'd like to know what the lyrics for Look were, if there were additional lyrics written and recorded for I'm in Great Shape and, obviously, if Van Dyke wrote them. I don't believe for a second that the BWPS vocals for Look or Child were definitive '66. Way below the SMiLE standard. Even the child lyrics written for project smile are way better.

I faintly remember reading there were no lyrics for Look in 1967, there were some for CIFOTM but they were lost. So you're right in believing the Look/CIFOTM lyrics aren't from 1966.

I wouldn't say though they are below the standard of the 1966 penned lyrics, they're just surprisingly short. The older lyrics have far more words per bar, if you will. Smiley

I could be wrong, but I thought I heard Look indeed had vocals, but the tape was recorded over. Further proof that whole song was probably scrapped early on.

Nah, I think they're subpar. Look is just a mashup of Wonderful and Child, which works fine in BWPS but in '66 I think each track was supposed to stand alone. If there were "suites" it'd be grouping the songs in some meaningful way on each side, not having them recycle lyrics from one another, and no link tracks.

Child's new lyrics are just too "one dimensional" and overly positive. Again, fine for BWPS, but ill-suited to the more spookier, psychedelic, 60s SMiLE. *That* album dealt with some heavy stuff. Even the musical comedies like Heroes and Vega-Tables mention a woman getting shot to death and subtle references to drugs (I threw away my candy bar and I ate the wrapper = rolling a blunt, in my mind). I suspect the original CIFOTM would have explored the idea that your childhood experiences directly influence what kind of man you grow into. They "raise" you, like a father does. And going by the baby crying, and Brian's history, I'd hazard a guess that negative childhood influences would be the focus, or at least mentioned. Not this feel good "I believe!" stuff. What does that even mean, or have anything to do with the title/chorus?

In any case, those new lyrics aren't nearly as poetic or open ended enough, in my opinion. GV and Wind Chimes are simple too, but they weren't written by Van Dyke. I'd expect much better from him. Plus, GV is at least still very abstract in how it describes love. And WC is more about painting a tranquil scene. You can read into it as a guy tripping finding new meaning in the simple things. Or how all of us focus on the little pleasures in life as the days pass by. The new Look and Child lyrics have no alternate interpretation or redeeming qualities. They're just below the SMiLE standard. At least as far as I'm concerned.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #586 on: March 12, 2015, 01:22:20 AM »

I could be wrong, but I thought I heard Look indeed had vocals, but the tape was recorded over.

Vocals or actually lyrics? I seem to remember the BWPS clarinet melody was from a deleted 1966 overdub they had found some faint trace somewhere, and there is indeed documentation for a vocal session, but not necessary a lead vocal with lyrics.


In any case, those new lyrics aren't nearly as poetic or open ended enough, in my opinion.
...
The new Look and Child lyrics have no alternate interpretation

Right, they're not as cryptic anyway, so they are substantially different.


GV and Wind Chimes are simple too, but they weren't written by Van Dyke.

A posting a bit further up claims they were written by VDP. But they aren't as VDPesque like Wonderful, Surf's Up, or DYLW, that's for sure.
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« Reply #587 on: April 19, 2015, 01:02:30 PM »

I just saw/heard this for the first time. It was uploaded in 2013 shortly before BAD started. Mike is asked about that and the chance of another Beach Boys project.
If I understand correctly Mike says that he and Brian talked about an album but that never happened and instead "That's why God made the radio" developed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcywqyC-f3Q
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« Reply #588 on: April 19, 2015, 01:17:46 PM »



There's a session sheet for vocals that have never turned up; by that point, it had been renamed 'I Ran', or at least that's what the box read.
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