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Author Topic: New Brian Wilson song just premiered on radio  (Read 66534 times)
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« Reply #225 on: February 17, 2015, 11:11:41 PM »

^ that was awesome
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« Reply #226 on: February 17, 2015, 11:51:22 PM »

If you expected me not to reply and discuss directly after it was aimed at me, especially where my intent and premise was described other than what it actually was, you were mistaken. I'll have a conversation, I'll get heated in the conversation and expect heat back, but I won't be patronized or talked down to by anyone. I've been "at this" for 20+ years too and now make a full time living with music which I'm thankful for and feel very blessed to do on a daily if not hourly basis, but I don't feel it necessary to throw that in someone's face to score points in a discussion.

If there's more to this personally that I should know, drop me a line off the board, the door is always open and the coffee is always brewin'.

This was about the new single, yeah it got sidetracked but I guess that's the way things go sometimes. I make no attempts to hide some frustrations any time "Autotune" is brought up as a negative in a discussion regarding a new Brian Wilson song, whether it is or is not relevant or even factual. It's been happening since the new album was announced. Call it my hangup and call it over and out.


The "more to this personally" thing got that "squirrely baffled look" face from me.  Not sure what the avatar for that would be but, nothing of the kind.  I'm seriously saying that if this is your take on peoples' criticism, and this is your living, you really oughta rethink how you process criticism.  That is not patronization.  That is advice, and the fact that you've been doing it as long as you have means that this is something that (from my perspective) it would have benefited you to internalize by now.  I wasn't "scoring points" so much as I was pointing out that, you kept throwing a hypothetical at me as if it was going to prove something or it was a phenomenon I'd never encountered.  If I hadn't backed it up with saying, "yes, I have actually done this and experienced this and your hypothetical doesn't change anything" it wouldn't be worth much, would it?

Yes, I know a lot of musicians get bent out of shape about stuff like this, but you actually made the best argument yourself:  people aren't very well informed, and no one cares.  But that doesn't mean their criticism is invalid, because those are the customers. It means our picayune excuses that "we didn't use any autotune" are invalid (it also means most people don't care either way).  If multiple peoples' perception is that it's there, then we helped create that somehow.  They're not musicians.  They don't know what they're hearing, they just know they don't like it and something sounds weird to them.  It's up to us to figure out what's bugging them and whether it need concern us or not.  We don't have to, but it's no skin off the audiences' back if we don't.  Only ours.

I think I'm saying the same things over and over again but if your feelings were hurt, I'm sorry.  Regardless of your experience -- and I know that there are a lot of experienced musicians who think the same as you do, so it doesn't in anyway invalidate that -- I think your premise is flat wrong.  It does not mean I think you're a moron or in someway a lesser being.  But I think it's something you probably would benefit from hearing.  If you think that's patronization, well -- kinda gets back to the same point I've been making: you can stand on your laurels, or you can listen and consider that even if something isn't said the way you might want it to be said, there might be a grain of truth there to benefit from.

/peaceout

It is not, nor was it ever about me from the beginning and through every post I've made here. It was about a general notion of taking critical shots at a Brian Wilson album based on Autotune use before anyone heard a single note, then after a cel phone video clip was posted, then after a single was streamed online via a radio show, and now we have that track available in full quality to buy on iTunes - and the preview of the album on Google, much better items to judge and form opinions. The Autotune comments have appeared at every turn -  that's my issue as a fan, as mentioned, and I'm vocal about it.

Why you specifically directed any of this toward me and now have published for the board to read how I can better excel at my profession by taking criticism properly is the "personally" bit I referred to, and which I left a door open for further discussion or even clarification if necessary. But I wasn't expecting another lecture about taking criticism to appear publicly on the board.

Your comments and suggestions about professional criticism - Perhaps forward it to Brian Wilson regarding his new music. That's what the topic was, that's what I was writing about, that's what people reading wanted to read about, and what it should have been before it turned into a discussion about me.

I'll gladly take criticism about my work and career from those who actually know enough firsthand about it or about me in general to do so. Again, I won't have someone list what they think may be my professional shortcomings on a public forum and then give me suggestions on how to improve, if that person doesn't know me at all. Or, sadly, has not a clue what exactly it is that I do and how I do it. That's disrespect. I won't sit back and take that from anyone, either in person or on a message board. I hope you can understand that, Adam, as I wouldn't want to see someone like that start listing publicly what they think are your faults as a professional if they don't even know who you are or what you do when you clock in to work every day.

If you don't see what you just wrote in that reply as patronizing, and it was directed personally at me as in "I'm seriously saying that if this is your take on peoples' criticism, and this is your living, you really oughta rethink how you process criticism. ", it's more sad to see coming from you or anyone else than worth arguing about here.

I can say with pretty much 100% accuracy that you don't know enough about me or what I do, what I did or what happened to get to where I am now in Feb 2015, or even how I do things on a daily basis, to feel some of these comments are fit for a public message board, for all to read what you think are my .

If you have a beef with me, take it off the board which is the advice anyone else would get or give as well. This never was personal, this kind of thing should never be personal and aired out on a message board, I don't know how or why the focus became my professional or personal life and your giving opinions on how I could rethink or improve myself instead of opinions about Autotune and effects on some record or song, but I've had my fill of it and it needs to stop in general. I'll discuss and argue anything but taking this stuff into comments about professional/private life is going too far.
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« Reply #227 on: February 17, 2015, 11:52:35 PM »

I can't believe anyone is going on about whether there might (or might not) be Auto-Tune on 'The Right Time' when there's a mix (admittedly possibly not the one that's on NPP) of that other album track 'Our Special Love' out there in which Brian is not so much Auto-Tuned as... Melodyned to Death. Now THAT is over-production on the vocals...

I can't access the GooglePlay previews (fershenliggen regionalisation... the curse of the modern media experience), but I'm not feeling the NPP love so far (although I'll be the first to admit it if the rest of the material persuades me otherwise). The Adult Contemporary sound is still muzack to my ears (like drowning in horribly over-sweet honey), and although Al sounds good on The Right Time, it's a very thin rewrite of a (to my ears) already over-sugary AC album track that is itself 17 years old...

Perhaps I just need some coffee and another few listens... and a proxy to get me some GooglePlay action...
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« Reply #228 on: February 18, 2015, 02:10:04 AM »

GuitarFool, I'm just shaking my head at your post.  

I'm not making any assumptions about you based on anything other than what you've written.  Nor have I personally criticized - once - Brian's track.  I just joined in a discussion other people were having, and you yourself got excised based on a proposition that I thought was bunk.  And I repeatedly said why.

I understand why you feel patronized - really do, though I don't agree - but honestly you're giving me nowhere to go here, because all I'm doing is pointing out the flaw in what you're saying, and how that plays into our work, and you're kinda sorta little by little freaking out on me and taking it all as a personal thing...and even by pointing that out, it could be taken as patronizing.  So what can I do?  

The thing is, you could take it as what it is - friendly advice from a fellow professional who's been there and who sees things differently.  And as an illustration of why I just don't buy your basic premise.  *shrug* I could be wrong, and you're free to ignore it.  I honestly believe I have things I can learn from everybody, and some of the best insight I have ever been given has initially made me absolutely furious.  I've felt patronized and undervalued for most of my life, and I finally figured out it was coming from my own sense of insecurity.  I was angry because people saw something in me that I didn't want to acknowledge and wanted to deny.  Until one day I let it go.  And I wasn't that guy anymore, and this stuff didn't bug me anymore.

It's true that I don't know you, and I have made absolutely zero judgments about your music, but the fact that you felt the need to go on such a lengthy post and construe my noodlings as a personal attack, when it really was the opposite of that -- well, again, I can't really write anything, can I?  Because whatever I say, or point out, would just inflame you further, or taken as, again, patronizing, or making judgments about someone I don't know.  All I can say is...I was simply going off what you wrote.

So again - as gently as I can - you can stand on your laurels and take things as an affront, or find insight in peoples' perceptions, even when they seem unfair or wrong, because there usually is a kernel of truth in them, which empowers you, and you can discard the rest.  I know how patronizing that sounds, but it's simply the truth, man!  So as in "autotune," so as in anything I might have written.  Rather than taking it as an attack, you can ask yourself why I might have gathered this wrong impression from what you wrote.  Just as a person who didn't autotune might ask what the listener was actually hearing, instead of just saying "but I didn't use autotune!"  You see what I mean?  It's the opposite of patronization to deal with someone fairly and honestly and call something as they see it.  It is a sign of respect and a belief in the maturity of the other person that they are going to be able to take it as it's meant.

But *shrug* if you think I'm out to get you or diss you, you truly don't see where I'm coming from at all.  And while that saddens me, because I have no intent to hurt or anger you, at the end of the day, I am not the one who might be hurt by it.

Be well, sir.  Seriously.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 02:23:09 AM by adamghost » Logged
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« Reply #229 on: February 18, 2015, 02:26:14 AM »

Hate to say this, but I think there's a cohort of posters who talk about this because they can; I dunno, maybe it makes them feel better that they can pick out something like this. When TWGMTR was released there was one insufferable asshole who would go on and on about the damn thing like he was the smartest guy in the world, though I suspect he's only just heard of it on here. Hey let's see if we can detect autotune on....

Unfortunately, this griping was picked up by newspaper writers (the hipster guy who writes for The Guardian being a prime example) who then banged on about it in their reviews - when I suspect it would never have crossed their minds to mention it because they, like most people, are well aware that electronic trickery has been going on for years, but if you want it to spoil your enjoyment of the music, wear yourself out.
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« Reply #230 on: February 18, 2015, 02:58:29 AM »

Something to consider about autotune is that in my view, it is to 2015 what gated snare drums were to 1985.  Yes, they sounded great on "in The Air Tonight," but once that effect took hold, it just became silly, artificial and as others have noted, monotonous.  And now when we hear that effect, the song is no longer timeless.  It screams "1985!!!"  That's the degree to which the tuned "sound" is the sound of pop music in our era.  It may be that a lot of people don't perceive it...yet.  But it's rather like CGI, at first you're like "holy cow!  That movie looks amazing!"  But as everyone starts to use it, and uses it willy-nilly, you become fatigued of it and it takes you out of the moment.

The thing I keep thinking of, though, is that *everything* dates.  A random person listening to "Fun Fun Fun" or "Add Some Music" would be able to pin them down to within a few years of their recording just as much as someone listening to a gated-snare-fest would.

Being dated isn't a problem; the only question is whether you like the dates it sounds like!

Cheers,
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« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 03:03:39 AM by Jonathan Blum » Logged
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« Reply #231 on: February 18, 2015, 02:59:03 AM »

Hate to say this, but I think there's a cohort of posters who talk about this because they can; I dunno, maybe it makes them feel better that they can pick out something like this. When TWGMTR was released there was one insufferable asshole who would go on and on about the damn thing like he was the smartest guy in the world, though I suspect he's only just heard of it on here. Hey let's see if we can detect autotune on....

Unfortunately, this griping was picked up by newspaper writers (the hipster guy who writes for The Guardian being a prime example) who then banged on about it in their reviews - when I suspect it would never have crossed their minds to mention it because they, like most people, are well aware that electronic trickery has been going on for years, but if you want it to spoil your enjoyment of the music, wear yourself out.

Everybody everywhere talks about stuff "because they can". It's part of that whole "freedom of speech" thing. Of course some people act like twatasaurs about their alleged knowledge, and the sheeple just eat that stuff up. People with any modicum of intelligence learn to discount the majority of opinions of internet "experts" and have the eyes and ears and mouths and noses to make their own opinions.

It's when you start reading about the autotunes and melodynes in legitimate, printed, news sources that you need to start questioning the artistic integrity of Brian Wilson and his collaborators.
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« Reply #232 on: February 18, 2015, 03:08:58 AM »

Wow, that hit the spot, I choked up listening to it. I want more, lol!
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« Reply #233 on: February 18, 2015, 03:55:57 AM »

Just curious, trying to start an even-tempered debate... Smiley

What is it that causes the Robo Al effect that i can hear? Ray said it's not Auto-tune, but that's just one brand of pitch correction software. Are you saying, Ray, that there is no pitch correction on the track, or that it's just not the Auto-tune brand?

I can hear something "unnatural" on Al's voice. It's not on every syllable of every word, but there is some vocal effect going on in many places. Whether it's an intentional effect to get it sounding modern and shiny for teh internetz, or whether it's the production team not allowing a single (human) off-key note, IMO, i would prefer to hear Al's voice without this effect. I'm not against pitch correction itself, I actually like Cher's song and Kanye West, but i don't like it with the Beach Boys.

Wow, my plea backfired, eh? Smiley

Let's keep this friendly!
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« Reply #234 on: February 18, 2015, 05:31:51 AM »

.
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« Reply #235 on: February 18, 2015, 05:48:20 AM »

Hate to say this, but I think there's a cohort of posters who talk about this because they can; I dunno, maybe it makes them feel better that they can pick out something like this. When TWGMTR was released there was one insufferable asshole who would go on and on about the damn thing like he was the smartest guy in the world, though I suspect he's only just heard of it on here. Hey let's see if we can detect autotune on....

Unfortunately, this griping was picked up by newspaper writers (the hipster guy who writes for The Guardian being a prime example) who then banged on about it in their reviews - when I suspect it would never have crossed their minds to mention it because they, like most people, are well aware that electronic trickery has been going on for years, but if you want it to spoil your enjoyment of the music, wear yourself out.

Everybody everywhere talks about stuff "because they can". It's part of that whole "freedom of speech" thing. Of course some people act like twatasaurs about their alleged knowledge, and the sheeple just eat that stuff up. People with any modicum of intelligence learn to discount the majority of opinions of internet "experts" and have the eyes and ears and mouths and noses to make their own opinions.

It's when you start reading about the autotunes and melodynes in legitimate, printed, news sources that you need to start questioning the artistic integrity of Brian Wilson and his collaborators.

Unnfortunately, there are a lot sheeple and that includes those in legitimate, printed news sources.

Freedom of Speech? You had me going there, Stack
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« Reply #236 on: February 18, 2015, 06:19:22 AM »

Being dated isn't a problem; the only question is whether you like the dates it sounds like!

Very good point. Personally, I would have preferred if they had gone for the BBToday! soundscape rather than the Your Imagination soundscape with "The First Time"... But having been able to listen to the previews through the kindness of a fellow board member, it seems like there is a pretty wide diversity in the sounds of the different tracks. Some even seem to have an 80s dated sound! Cheesy
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« Reply #237 on: February 18, 2015, 06:37:50 AM »

I know it's not my argument, but I'm really confused with guitarfool.

It's obvious that Adam is just basically pointing that those who complain about "autotune" may just be misidentifying the reason why the sound of the track doesn't work for them. Some hear vocals that might be processed in a certain way and they just say "autotune" because they don't really know much about the different programs and whatnot. I don't understand why guitarfool is getting so bugged about it. Usually he's a great poster and a very good moderator.

Personally, I think all the complaining about "autotune" or the vocals sounding over processed is much ado about nothing. The only time on TWGMTR that I thought the processing was really noticeable was on "Spring Vacation" and "Shelter". But whatever. People have their own opinions.
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« Reply #238 on: February 18, 2015, 06:38:49 AM »

Hate to say this, but I think there's a cohort of posters who talk about this because they can; I dunno, maybe it makes them feel better that they can pick out something like this. When TWGMTR was released there was one insufferable asshole who would go on and on about the damn thing like he was the smartest guy in the world, though I suspect he's only just heard of it on here. Hey let's see if we can detect autotune on....

Unfortunately, this griping was picked up by newspaper writers (the hipster guy who writes for The Guardian being a prime example) who then banged on about it in their reviews - when I suspect it would never have crossed their minds to mention it because they, like most people, are well aware that electronic trickery has been going on for years, but if you want it to spoil your enjoyment of the music, wear yourself out.

Critics didn’t pick up on the “autotune” issue as it pertains to the BBs because one guy mentioned it somewhere in a review in 2012. It has been an ongoing thing in the industry for a long time, and like many other perceived “blights” on any number of forms of art, there is a constant back and forth between people calling it out/criticizing it, people who don’t care, and people who say they like it or want to justify it.

I do think, somewhat ironically, it is the old fogey artists using autotune (and, let me remind again that we this is a genericized use of the word that could mean any number of pitch-correction tools) that sometimes garners more attention and criticism. Why? I can only think of the obvious reasons: Super young artists (with super young listeners) started out using it (and hearing it) from the get-go. Older artists that started out not using it (including artists from the 70s and 80s and even 90s who used plenty of *other* studio effects/tricks) and then moved to using it end up sounding much more noticeably different. Remember when older listeners actually thought some “autotune” effects were actually a vocoder or something similar?

I remember a few years back someone here tracked down a totally random quote from Burton Cummings:

“I was listening to a new Beach Boys album ( “That’s Why God Made The Radio”) and it was so obvious the vocals had been auto tuned,” fumed Cummings. “Obviously I was not impressed. I mean this is the same Beach Boys that recorded Pet Sounds and all those great vocal harmonies yet they felt they had to resort to auto-tuning!”

There was also a big hoopla not too long ago about Aretha Franklin’s cover of that Adele song, and all of a sudden everybody decided to go all “Wtf? Why is she using autotune?”, the implication being “We know most of the current popular artists use it, and we frown upon it (though not enough to not buy the stuff and heap praise on it), but Aretha?” Which leads me to this:

I think the CGI analogy that has been used is apt. But here’s a different analogy: Use of autotune is kind of like popular s****y movies. How many times has a movie been roundly criticized, made fun of, constantly referred to as if “who would go see that?”, yet the thing is #1 at the box office. That’s autotune. It’s like Kenny G or John Tesh music. Everybody makes fun of it and derides it, but many of those same people are probably buying it.

To quickly also go back to the assertion that 2012 (e.g. TWGMTR and the C50 live album) don’t matter, and we’re talking about 2015 now, I don’t agree. We shouldn’t assume everything (or anything) Brian and Joe Thomas does in 2015 will be awash in autotune, but to wonder or suggest after hearing a recording, I don’t think that’s out of line at all. Let’s be clear as well. In terms of the “you don’t know if you didn’t personally record and mix it” rule, we don’t know if anything was autotuned ever. Did anyone admit Mike was autotuned up the wazoo on “Don’t Back Down” on the C50 live album? No. Does anyone here disagree that it’s autotuned up the wazoo to the point of sounding like Johnny 5 from “Short Circuit”?
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« Reply #239 on: February 18, 2015, 06:40:45 AM »

You should never take people who use the term "sheeple" seriously.
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« Reply #240 on: February 18, 2015, 08:00:42 AM »

So how's about I just say "I don't like the way the vocals sound." Does that make me a hipster asshole? I mean, we criticize Dennis' double tracking on ItBoMM, don't we? Is that something you've all "had enough of"?

This autotune thing is a red herring, as adamghost has pointed out.
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« Reply #241 on: February 18, 2015, 09:27:14 AM »

Hate to say this, but I think there's a cohort of posters who talk about this because they can; I dunno, maybe it makes them feel better that they can pick out something like this. When TWGMTR was released there was one insufferable asshole who would go on and on about the damn thing like he was the smartest guy in the world, though I suspect he's only just heard of it on here. Hey let's see if we can detect autotune on....

Unfortunately, this griping was picked up by newspaper writers (the hipster guy who writes for The Guardian being a prime example) who then banged on about it in their reviews - when I suspect it would never have crossed their minds to mention it because they, like most people, are well aware that electronic trickery has been going on for years, but if you want it to spoil your enjoyment of the music, wear yourself out.

Preach it brother.
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« Reply #242 on: February 18, 2015, 09:30:41 AM »

I've had Al's voice stuck in my head all day, damn you Al.

You mean you've had Joe Thomas' pro tools filter stuck in your head, right??? I mean lets not lose track of what's important here, Shady. 
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« Reply #243 on: February 18, 2015, 11:07:16 AM »

Hi,

So great to hear this song and all the previews from the new album. I don't know if someone has mentioned it before but according to this article : http://classichits1015.com/2015/02/18/check-out-preview-of-brian-wilsons-upcoming-solo-album-no-pier-pressure/
There will be a video for the Right Time released Thursday at Yahoo Music.
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« Reply #244 on: February 18, 2015, 11:55:47 AM »

You should never take people who use the term "sheeple" seriously.

I try not, but he's right.
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« Reply #245 on: February 18, 2015, 12:24:24 PM »

You should never take people who use the term "sheeple" seriously.

I try not, but he's right.

Doesn't that now make you a sheeple?
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« Reply #246 on: February 18, 2015, 12:27:47 PM »

You should never take people who use the term "sheeple" seriously.

I try not, but he's right.

Doesn't that now make you a sheeple?

Sheeple is a good word, I use it a lot.

And Bruce once wrote a song called Sheeple Eve's In Love Again.
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« Reply #247 on: February 18, 2015, 12:43:20 PM »

 LOL
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« Reply #248 on: February 18, 2015, 01:30:46 PM »

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« Reply #249 on: February 18, 2015, 05:18:48 PM »

Love it. I'm currently taking classes on production. That sound isn't autotune, it's just a more modern style of mixing double tracked vocals. Works well for Al IMHO, I think it was also used on Postcard.
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