If "Ten Little Indians" had been a hit single...

[CenturyDeprived]

If "Ten Little Indians" had been a hit single...and not a big flop... would we have seen more novelty songs from the band about other subjects (and less songs about surfing?)

Would the band have dared to release more early songs about American Indians? They certainly didn't shy away from multiple successive car songs once they started having hits with them. Why would this lyrical topic be any different? (I'm serious!)

I wonder if this song was ever thought about/talked about years later during the SMiLE era when the lyrical subject matter returned to American Indians.

It's probably the single most forgotten about (for good reason, IMO) single by the band from the early days. Why did this song get released as a single to begin with? I'm guessing the reasoning was that it was a concerted attempt for there to not be a 3rd successive surfing-related single, right?

I guess an oddball song like "Mother May I" wouldn't have been that out of place as a "Ten Little Indians" B-side, and I'd wager that "Mother May I" would have seen release at the time if an oddball ditty like TLI had been the hit the record company must've thought it could have been.

[Loaf]

TLI isn't a great song or production. Very thin sounding. I can see why no one bought it. Thankfully.

[Lee Marshall]

I remember hearing it on the radio and thinking "how odd".  I'd have been 10 years old...going on 11.  I also vaguely remember Surfin Safari...and...nothing.  It never dawned on me that it was the same group singing both of those songs.  I didn't appreciate either release and never took note of who sang 'em.  Then in May of 1963...and me at the ripe old age of 11...Along came Surfin USA...the Fours Seasons slid down a notch on my personal list to be replaced by my new favourite group...The Beach Boys.

And my first EVER rock 'n' roll album?  Bought in November 1963 with paper-route money...Surfin Safari.  Their other albums were sold out.  [SUSA, SG and LDC]  My appreciation for the 2 songs mentioned...TLI and SS...remained stuck in neutral.  [It still does]

IF TLI had been a hit would it still be played on oldies stations now...or even 15 years ago?  Likely not.  Not politically correct.  What would they have done?  Rerecorded other children's songs in their own emerging Chuck Berry meets the 4 Freshmen style?  BINGO?  Old MacDonald?  You Are My Sunshine?  [maybe Ray Charles beat them to the punch on that one?  Would have been close.]  That would have had a short lifespan and they would have had to have progressed anyway.  So?  Things would have been marginally on hold for 4 or 5 months?

Then there's that pic of Bri in the kind of beat up Indian headress in the Mike Love picture thread.  1 little Indian?  No.

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So then my introduction to the Beach Boys was altered by availability.  [just an observation and off topic...but inspired by the thread]  I followed the hit...or at least top 50 releases in order. [and yes it was a top 50 til about 1968 in Toronto]  But album-wise?  It was Surfin Safari, Little Deuce Coupe, Surfer Girl then Surfin USA and Shut Down Volume 2 almost exactly at the same time.  Surfin USA was the # 1 album in Toronto for maybe 2 - 2 1/2 months?  It was always sold out.  I never bought Shut Down - 1 as it only had 2 Beach Boys songs on it and I already had them both.

Album wise...I jumped from Surfin Safari to Little Deuce Coupe in a matter of maybe 2 months.  Rather a quantum leap.  I was hooked forever.  And I still think LDC pummels the living daylights out of its 3 predeccesors.

[Jim Murphy]

"Ten Little Indians" was certainly an unusual choice as the follow-up single to their debut double-sided hit "Surfin' Safari" b/w "409."  But its release was not without controversy.

There was much precedence for novelty Indian-themed records. "Broken Arrow" by Chuck Berry (1959), "Running Bear" by Johnny Preston (penned by The Big Bopper; #1 in summer 1959), "Geronimo" by the Renegades (1959, with Nick Venet involved while he worked as singles A&R director for Dick Bock's World Pacific Records), "Mr. Custer" by Larry Verne (1960), and "Comanche" by the Revels (1961). Perhaps the biggest influence on the writing of "Ten Little Indians" came from Ramsey Kearney's "Nine Little Teardrops" released on the B side of Sue Thompson's "Sad Movies (Make Me Cry)," a #5 hit in October 1961, that Kearney resurrected for his own single on Hickory Records in June 1962. Hickory Records was one of the labels promoted by Russ Regan who was still working for Dorothy Freeman's Buckeye Record Distributors in LA.  

Keep in mind that, unlike the Beatles, success hit the Beach Boys very rapidly. When an album got green lit, Capitol wanted it out yesterday -- a summer album to capitalize on the surfing/beach theme. The Boys and Gary Usher had to scramble to finish writing and rehearsing songs for the album. Of the ten new songs recorded for the album [they already had "Surfin' Safari," "409," and "Surfin'" (a late substitution for Brian's "Land Ahoy"], five were Brian and Usher originals ("Ten Little Indians," "County Fair," "Heads You Win, Tails I Lose," "Cuckoo Clock," and "Chug-A-Lug"), one was a Brian and Mike original ("The Shift"), and three were covers ("Moon Dawg," "Little Miss America," and "Summertime Blues").

Three songs on the album had already been used on hit singles ("Surfin' Safari," "409," and "Surfin'"). Hence, excluding the three covers, that left only six potential candidates for the all-important follow-up single.  Initially, Venet did not want to release any of them. He wanted the group to record a song he found called "C.C. Cinder" to cash in on the recent success of "The Peppermint Twist," a #1 hit for Joey Dee and the Starliters about the New York City club The Peppermint Lounge.  Venet reasoned if a song about an East Coast club could go to number one, well, then perhaps a song about a West Coast club (The Cinnamon Cinder, co-owned by KRLA disc jockey Bob Eubanks, at which the Boys had played) could do the same. Brian hated the song and refused to record it. Usher recorded it a few months later and released it on Challenge Records as by The Sunsets, one of his many studio group collaborations. It failed to chart nationally but, in all fairness, Challenge did not have the marketing and distribution muscle of a major label like Capitol.

In July 1962, Brian told a radio interviewer the Beach Boys' next single would be "Chug-A-Lug," but that was not meant to be.  All of this maneuvering delayed the release of a follow-up single. "Surfin Safari" had already peaked and was beginning its descent down the charts when Venet finally released "Ten Little Indians" b/w "County Fair." KMEN, the powerhouse radio station in San Bernardino and Riverside, where the Boys had much success, received an advance copy and got a very poor response from its listeners. The station advised Capitol not to release it. Capitol ignored the station's advice and, behind the label's impressive marketing machine and the strength of a beautiful, if incongruous, full-color picture sleeve, pushed the record to a very respectable #49 in Billboard and #50 in Cash Box. It charted for eight weeks in both national publications. Somewhat embarrassingly, it failed to dent the charts on KFWB or KRLA in Los Angeles. It fared better in Chicago where it reached #28 on WLS.

On Saturday, November 3, 1962, the Beach Boys performed (lip synced) "Ten Little Indians" at the Burbank Recreation Center for a taping of Bob Eubanks' Pickwick Dance Party. Their performance aired on Saturday, November 10, 1962, on KRLA-TV, channel 5, from 2:00 p.m to 3:30 p.m.  Unfortunately, no film of their appearance has ever surfaced.

Murry used the relative chart failure of "Ten Little Indians" to further drive a wedge between Brian and Usher, and the Beach Boys and Venet. After co-writing six songs on Surfin' Safari, Usher would only appear once on Surfin' U.S.A. -- "Lonely Sea," slightly reworked from its April 1962 demo recording at Western with engineer Chuck Britz.    

I have often wondered, however, if the biggest damage "Ten Little Indians" inflicted on the Beach Boys' career/legacy was Capitol's apparent reluctance to continue producing picture sleeves for the group's next four singles ("Surfin' U.S.A." b/w "Shut Down," "Surfer Girl" b/w "Little Deuce Coupe," "Be True To Your School" b/w "In My Room," and "Little St. Nick" b/w "The Lord's Prayer").  Certainly, a minor point but think of the beautiful picture sleeves that could have been produced for those singles. A year later, that kind of myopic oversight would never have happened to the Liverpool lads.

Capitol omitted"Ten Little Indians" from all future compilations, perhaps because of political correctness, it just being a rather slight song, or the group's collective veto. But that did not stop The Rackets, a German rock 'n' roll quartet, from covering "Ten Little Indians" and releasing it as a single with a picture sleeve.    

[joshferrell]

if it had become a hit they would have done "11 little indians" then "12 little indians" and songs about NOTHING but indians and then they would have been forced to change their name to the Cow-Boys..

[CenturyDeprived]

"Ten Little Indians" was certainly an unusual choice as the follow-up single to their debut double-sided hit "Surfin' Safari" b/w "409."  But its release was not without controversy.

There was much precedence for novelty Indian-themed records. "Broken Arrow" by Chuck Berry (1959), "Running Bear" by Johnny Preston (penned by The Big Bopper; #1 in summer 1959), "Geronimo" by the Renegades (1959, with Nick Venet involved while he worked as singles A&R director for Dick Bock's World Pacific Records), "Mr. Custer" by Larry Verne (1960), and "Comanche" by the Revels (1961). Perhaps the biggest influence on the writing of "Ten Little Indians" came from Ramsey Kearney's "Nine Little Teardrops" released on the B side of Sue Thompson's "Sad Movies (Make Me Cry)," a #5 hit in October 1961, that Kearney resurrected for his own single on Hickory Records in June 1962. Hickory Records was one of the labels promoted by Russ Regan who was still working for Dorothy Freeman's Buckeye Record Distributors in LA.  

Keep in mind that, unlike the Beatles, success hit the Beach Boys very rapidly. When an album got green lit, Capitol wanted it out yesterday -- a summer album to capitalize on the surfing/beach theme. The Boys and Gary Usher had to scramble to finish writing and rehearsing songs for the album. Of the ten new songs recorded for the album [they already had "Surfin' Safari," "409," and "Surfin'" (a late substitution for Brian's "Land Ahoy"], five were Brian and Usher originals ("Ten Little Indians," "County Fair," "Heads You Win, Tails I Lose," "Cuckoo Clock," and "Chug-A-Lug"), one was a Brian and Mike original ("The Shift"), and three were covers ("Moon Dawg," "Little Miss America," and "Summertime Blues").

Three songs on the album had already been used on hit singles ("Surfin' Safari," "409," and "Surfin'"). Hence, excluding the three covers, that left only six potential candidates for the all-important follow-up single.  Initially, Venet did not want to release any of them. He wanted the group to record a song he found called "C.C. Cinder" to cash in on the recent success of "The Peppermint Twist," a #1 hit for Joey Dee and the Starliters about the New York City club The Peppermint Lounge.  Venet reasoned if a song about an East Coast club could go to number one, well, then perhaps a song about a West Coast club (The Cinnamon Cinder, co-owned by KRLA disc jockey Bob Eubanks, at which the Boys had played) could do the same. Brian hated the song and refused to record it. Usher recorded it a few months later and released it on Challenge Records as by The Sunsets, one of his many studio group collaborations. It failed to chart nationally but, in all fairness, Challenge did not have the marketing and distribution muscle of a major label like Capitol.

In July 1962, Brian told a radio interviewer the Beach Boys' next single would be "Chug-A-Lug," but that was not meant to be.  All of this maneuvering delayed the release of a follow-up single. "Surfin Safari" had already peaked and was beginning its descent down the charts when Venet finally released "Ten Little Indians" b/w "County Fair." KMEN, the powerhouse radio station in San Bernardino and Riverside, where the Boys had much success, received an advance copy and got a very poor response from its listeners. The station advised Capitol not to release it. Capitol ignored the station's advice and, behind the label's impressive marketing machine and the strength of a beautiful, if incongruous, full-color picture sleeve, pushed the record to a very respectable #49 in Billboard and #50 in Cash Box. It charted for eight weeks in both national publications. Somewhat embarrassingly, it failed to dent the charts on KFWB or KRLA in Los Angeles. It fared better in Chicago where it reached #28 on WLS.

On Saturday, November 3, 1962, the Beach Boys performed (lip synced) "Ten Little Indians" at the Burbank Recreation Center for a taping of Bob Eubanks' Pickwick Dance Party. Their performance aired on Saturday, November 10, 1962, on KRLA-TV, channel 5, from 2:00 p.m to 3:30 p.m.  Unfortunately, no film of their appearance has ever surfaced.

Murry used the relative chart failure of "Ten Little Indians" to further drive a wedge between Brian and Usher, and the Beach Boys and Venet. After co-writing six songs on Surfin' Safari, Usher would only appear once on Surfin' U.S.A. -- "Lonely Sea," slightly reworked from its April 1962 demo recording at Western with engineer Chuck Britz.    

I have often wondered, however, if the biggest damage "Ten Little Indians" inflicted on the Beach Boys' career/legacy was Capitol's apparent reluctance to continue producing picture sleeves for the group's next four singles ("Surfin' U.S.A." b/w "Shut Down," "Surfer Girl" b/w "Little Deuce Coupe," "Be True To Your School" b/w "In My Room," and "Little St. Nick" b/w "The Lord's Prayer").  Certainly, a minor point but think of the beautiful picture sleeves that could have been produced for those singles. A year later, that kind of myopic oversight would never have happened to the Liverpool lads.

Capitol omitted"Ten Little Indians" from all future compilations, perhaps because of political correctness, it just being a rather slight song, or the group's collective veto. But that did not stop The Rackets, a German rock 'n' roll quartet, from covering "Ten Little Indians" and releasing it as a single with a picture sleeve.    

As always, thanks Jim for your insight! Fascinating information. It really was a bizarre anomaly that this song slipped by and got released as a single.

[job]

...I would have lost all faith in mankind.

[SamMcK]

Surfin' had already been released as their first single. The next one, Surfin' Safari/409 was the only salvageable material to use from the album. Suffice to say nothing else was even close to those tracks, never mind what was to come over the next 15+ years!

[Lee Marshall]

I swear I knew that song...'10 Little Indians' well before The Beach Boys recorded it.  Or at least I knew the gist of it.  If the credits for writing it are shared by Brian and Gary...is it not at least partially 'lifted' from somewhere else...'cause I swear I knew it quite well before I bought the album...like from when I was 3 or 4 years old???

THAT'S why I suggested that they would re-work children's songs as their next move if TLI had been a hit...and if the Surfin' thing didn't take off.  But Surfin' USA put them "toes on the nose".

[drbeachboy]

I swear I knew that song...'10 Little Indians' well before The Beach Boys recorded it.  Or at least I knew the gist of it.  If the credits for writing it are shared by Brian and Gary...is it not at least partially 'lifted' from somewhere else...'cause I swear I knew it quite well before I bought the album...like from when I was 3 or 4 years old???

THAT'S why I suggested that they would re-work children's songs as their next move if TLI had been a hit...and if the Surfin' thing didn't take off.  But Surfin' USA put them "toes on the nose".

You are definitely correct, it is taken from an old children's tune or poem. The Beach Boys song has more words (goes into more detail) than the original and I suppose the music is original or mostly original. I only ever heard it from parents and other little kids.

[Lee Marshall]

Thanks Doc.  I thought after reading Jim's post that I was losing my marbles.  I know I didn't hear the BBs version on the radio THAT much before I got the album...like 5 or 6 times maybe?

The "one little, two little, 3 little Indians" part was pretty much identical to what I already knew [music part included]...all the way up to "10 little Indian boyyyyyyyyys."  The "You're my Keemosabe" part?  Not so much.

[drbeachboy]

Thanks Doc.  I thought after reading Jim's post that I was losing my marbles.  I know I didn't hear the BBs version on the radio THAT much before I got the album...like 5 or 6 times maybe?

The "one little, two little, 3 little Indians" part was pretty much identical to what I already knew [music part included]...all the way up to "10 little Indian boyyyyyyyyys."  The "You're my Keemosabe" part?  Not so much.

This is the Nursery Rhyme that I remember. It is on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LvhiPdCpuc

[Jim Murphy]

"Ten Little Indians" is a children's nursery rhyme dating back to 1868.  It was used primarily to teach young children how to count. 

The "one little, two little, three little . . ." melody is the only similarity to the Beach Boys tune. Usher is on record stating his main influence was "Running Bear" by Johnny Preston. 

The title of Agatha Christie's 1939 novel And Then There Were None was borrowed from the last line of a minstrel version of the nursery rhyme.  When a film of the novel was made in 1965, the  title was changed to Ten Little Indians.

The disappointing chart performance of "Ten Little Indians," compared to their first at bat with Capitol ("Surfin' Safari"), reportedly shook Brian. He confided in a Capitol executive that he was worried the group was through and was unsure of their next move.  Keep in mind that a #49 hit in Billboard is not too shabby.  In less than ten years, they would have been thrilled with a #49 hit. But when your debut single hits like "Surfin' Safari" and "409" did, #49 is, well, disappointing. But there was never any consideration given to recording more children's nursery rhymes. 

Enter Chuck Berry and Jimmy Bowles.  And then Gene Goodman, younger brother of band leader Benny Goodman. 

[Lee Marshall]

"Ten Little Indians" is a children's nursery rhyme dating back to 1868.  It was used primarily to teach young children how to count.  

The "one little, two little, three little . . ." melody is the only similarity to the Beach Boys tune. But there was never any consideration given to recording more children's nursery rhymes.  

Thanks for the further background Jim.  As for re-doing and recording any other nursery-themed material?  Why would they?  BUT...if TLI had hit #1...well it could have been a detour they might have taken.  Fortunately Brian headed toward Chuck.  For my ears?  The perfect maneuver.  Others agreed.

By the way...I can still count to eleven.

[Custom Machine]

Fascinating history, Jim.  Really looking forward to that book.

A minor correction - the TV station on which the BBs appeared 11-3-62 was KTLA (K - Television Los Angeles, Channel 5), as opposed to KRLA (K - Radio Los Angeles, 1110 AM).

[Jim Murphy]

Thanks! You are absolutely correct. It was KTLA.  Good catch!  The dangers of writing from memory .  It's correct in the book.  And thanks for your encouragement.  I hope to have a publication date soon. 

[CenturyDeprived]

I still wonder, who were the buyers at the time of the  "Ten Little Indians" single... were they kids who thought songs about Indians were fun? General buyers of novelty records? People who had bought the 1st 2 BBs singles? People who just thought the song was awesome as soon as they heard it on the radio?

It baffles the mind, because I think the song is pretty bad...but I'll try to put on 1962 goggles to understand it. Obviously enough people bought this odd record for it to chart.

[Jim Rockford]

I still wonder, who were the buyers at the time of the  "Ten Little Indians" single... were they kids who thought songs about Indians were fun? General buyers of novelty records? People who had bought the 1st 2 BBs singles? People who just thought the song was awesome as soon as they heard it on the radio?

It baffles the mind, because I think the song is pretty bad...but I'll try to put on 1962 goggles to understand it. Obviously enough people bought this odd record for it to chart.

Maybe they bought it based on the previous singles because they liked them and thought this one would be of the same quality.

[bgas]

I still wonder, who were the buyers at the time of the  "Ten Little Indians" single... were they kids who thought songs about Indians were fun? General buyers of novelty records? People who had bought the 1st 2 BBs singles? People who just thought the song was awesome as soon as they heard it on the radio?

It baffles the mind, because I think the song is pretty bad...but I'll try to put on 1962 goggles to understand it. Obviously enough people bought this odd record for it to chart.

Maybe they bought it based on the previous singles because they liked them and thought this one would be of the same quality.

And/Or  they bought it on account of the really nice Picture Sleeve!

[Jim Rockford]

I still wonder, who were the buyers at the time of the  "Ten Little Indians" single... were they kids who thought songs about Indians were fun? General buyers of novelty records? People who had bought the 1st 2 BBs singles? People who just thought the song was awesome as soon as they heard it on the radio?

It baffles the mind, because I think the song is pretty bad...but I'll try to put on 1962 goggles to understand it. Obviously enough people bought this odd record for it to chart.

Maybe they bought it based on the previous singles because they liked them and thought this one would be of the same quality.

And/Or  they bought it on account of the really nice Picture Sleeve!

True. Either way, it was a bad idea for a single. 

[bgas]

I still wonder, who were the buyers at the time of the  "Ten Little Indians" single... were they kids who thought songs about Indians were fun? General buyers of novelty records? People who had bought the 1st 2 BBs singles? People who just thought the song was awesome as soon as they heard it on the radio?

It baffles the mind, because I think the song is pretty bad...but I'll try to put on 1962 goggles to understand it. Obviously enough people bought this odd record for it to chart.

Maybe they bought it based on the previous singles because they liked them and thought this one would be of the same quality.

And/Or  they bought it on account of the really nice Picture Sleeve!

True. Either way, it was a bad idea for a single. 

It was OK by me. I think it's a nice little ditty, and catchy. 

[RangeRoverA1]

It was OK by me. I think it's a nice little ditty, and catchy.  

'Catchy' is a keyword. I liked it from the get-go, & to now it's one of my faves of early BBs. AND the one I consider the best song on "Surfin' Safari".

And the lyrics I find no more than just a limerick for kids. Where people find 'offensive' message there? Who cares anyway? It's a boring subj., all that political stuff.

[sockittome]

It was OK by me. I think it's a nice little ditty, and catchy.  

'Catchy' is a keyword. I liked it from the get-go, & to now it's one of my faves of early BBs. AND the one I consider the best song on "Surfin' Safari".

And the lyrics I find no more than just a limerick for kids. Where people find 'offensive' message there? Who cares anyway? It's a boring subj., all that political stuff.

I believe it's the fact that the word Indians is no longer acceptable, unless you are from India.  But "Ten Little Native Americans" just doesn't work.   

[bgas]

It was OK by me. I think it's a nice little ditty, and catchy.  

'Catchy' is a keyword. I liked it from the get-go, & to now it's one of my faves of early BBs. AND the one I consider the best song on "Surfin' Safari".

And the lyrics I find no more than just a limerick for kids. Where people find 'offensive' message there? Who cares anyway? It's a boring subj., all that political stuff.

I believe it's the fact that the word Indians is no longer acceptable, unless you are from India.  But "Ten Little Native Americans" just doesn't work.   

Sure, just more revisionist crap.  They're not India Indians, but they're not Native Americans either, having come across the Bering Strait. Longer time residents than the Euros, yes.

[filledeplage]

"Ten Little Indians" is a children's nursery rhyme dating back to 1868.  It was used primarily to teach young children how to count. 

Exactly, in the pre-k, early childhood or nursery school, it was used both for teaching counting forwards to ten and backwards to zero. It was used as a "fingerplay" or poem where the children had to hold up the same number of fingers (not always an easy task for a very small child) as the teacher.  Now, people are more sensitive about race and ethnicity.  Lots of 1960's - 1980's or so lyrics are screened for that standard. 

It is an easy song for young children to match tones, with a very short scale range. 

They could substitute "one little, two little, three little surfer girls, (boys)" and make it ethnic and gender neutral which is more acceptable in schools now.  Almost every country has its own sort of traditional nursery rhymes used in early education.