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Author Topic: The Lorren Daro Thread  (Read 233723 times)
Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #450 on: January 26, 2015, 09:11:41 AM »

OK, found it - in the legendary Fusion piece, Vosse states that he wanted to talk to Brian about Pet Sounds, and that Brian was then working on Smile. So... even if he were still with us, Vosse couldn't confirm Lorren was present at the Pet Sounds sessions because he himself wasn't.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 10:22:18 AM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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Don Malcolm
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« Reply #451 on: January 26, 2015, 10:25:52 AM »

Thanks, Andrew. I definitely understand the desire for and necessity of establishing a timeline that contextualizes and corroborates these accounts with other known facts.

IMO the several hours of David Leaf interview material with Lorren might be worth transcribing as additional background material. To the extent that it sheds light on any details not covered in questions posed here, it might prompt some other directions for discussion that would prove more satisfactory to the various flavors of skepticism that continue to manifest themselves here.
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« Reply #452 on: January 26, 2015, 01:36:24 PM »

OK, found it - in the legendary Fusion piece, Vosse states that he wanted to talk to Brian about Pet Sounds, and that Brian was then working on Smile. So... even if he were still with us, Vosse couldn't confirm Lorren was present at the Pet Sounds sessions because he himself wasn't.

You had mentioned earlier Vosse's leaving and I believe that Michael told me that he left because he didn't have anything to do or nothing was getting done or he otherwise didn't feel like he was earning his money as the TV/movie guy and he left to help with Monterey. They did give him the Ford Mustang they had provided for him to use in the job I remember.
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« Reply #453 on: January 26, 2015, 01:54:11 PM »

I was remiss in not mentioning that Michael didn't just walk away from Brian, but from Brother Records entirely.
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« Reply #454 on: January 26, 2015, 02:54:09 PM »

Lorren – thank you very much sincerely for all of your recollections on this board. Count me in as someone who greatly values your point of view and stories.

Do you recall any info about why the “Caroline No” single (released pre-Pet Sounds) was released as a “Brian Wilson” solo single? Was this Brian’s idea or Capitol’s? Was it a way to test the waters to see if he was a viable solo artist (and for what reason - to break away from the band?), or perhaps a passive aggressive maneuver to show that he could carry a song without needing the band’s name?

Side note  (I don’t know if you’re aware of this, since you weren’t in Brian’s circle anymore in late 1967) - I’ve always found it interesting that after the failure and non-release of SMiLE, Brian reverted back to primarily writing with Mike for Smiley Smile and Wild Honey, and a single for the song “Getting’ Hungry” from 1967 was oddly very specifically credited as by “Brian and Mike”, which to me seemed to be a very specific attempt to “undo” the solo “Brian can do it on his own” aspect that had been built up over the past couple of years. My outside opinion is that this crediting (and reverting to Mike as the main collaborator) seemed like the actions of a defeated and bullied man.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 05:48:29 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #455 on: January 26, 2015, 10:46:50 PM »

Add Some:  No, Brian didn’t ‘…get there’. I could take him only so far. That’s why I said ‘partly there’ in my post. But, as I wrote, it was enough to get rid of Murry, Marilyn and at least put ML at a distance. Brian couldn’t get rid of ML. He controlled the band, he was the lead singer, ML was ‘the band.’ Lose ML and you lose the road. He couldn’t do that to Carl, Dennis and Al. It was an institution that he would have to work around. Which is what he ultimately did. Little by little, and with the help of the media, ML began to understand that his contribution to the material was trivial, and that Brian was increasingly perceived as a genius. I think he faded because there were no more battles to be won.

Buddhahat: Brian was intimidated by The Beatles from their first records. At first, they were just rockers, but what knocked him off his feet was ‘Revolver’ -- whole new change in tone and artistry. From that album on, he felt competitive, and I think the roots of ‘Pet Sounds’ were planted by it. With the production values of Spector, combined with the depth of ‘Revolver’, ‘Pet Sounds’ was his answer to The Beatles. His listened to them constantly, but none hit him deeper than ‘Revolver’. He knew that even with his own great talent (and he was aware of it), he would never reach the heights they had flown to.

MrRobinsonsFather: Sorry, dear friend, I never visited Brian in the Seventies. I moved to Big Sur in 1969 and never looked back. I didn’t notice any change in his voice as long as I knew him. Sorry.

Tricycle Rider: As far as I could tell, Capitol was always supportive. They often appeared at the ‘Pet Sounds’ sessions, but said nothing. He was the Golden Goose, so why hassle him? I never heard of any issues of Brian touching the board. I was in the booth with him for many hours and he often moved the controls on the board. The engineer never seemed to mind. Fairy dust, I think.

OneEar/OneEye: I have no information on this subject. As I recently posted, my interest was in Brian, not in the music. Questions like this are not relevant to my experience.

Les P: I don’t remember Derek Taylor being that close to ‘the scene’. Van Dyke, Vosse and Anderle were. I don’t know if Brian cut ties with those I named, I doubt it. He never cut ties with me. After visiting him at the Bellagio house, as I previously wrote, he was on edge, a little frantic and unhappy. I felt it was time to go. I had done all I could by then. As for Diane, I’m sure Brian did all he could to keep her around. I know this: She was not in love with Brian and would never be. They were two very different people. She was regal, intelligent and gorgeous, and my impression was, like any Jewish girl of that kind, she wanted to marry someone sane and professional who could provide her and their family with a stable, affluent environment. Brian certainly was affluent, but stable he was not. As for Brian’s ‘self doubt’, I never perceived that in him. Like any true artist, he believed in his visions.

AGD: Correction: I had met Michael Vosse at Brian’s house a number of times before the ‘Pet Sounds’ sessions. We became good friends. I hung out with him for a time when David Leaf was interviewing both of us for the ‘Beautiful Dreamer’ documentary in San Francisco. He didn’t look well to me – haggard, weak and covered with extreme dandruff. Michael was at almost as many of the ‘Pet Sounds’ instrumental sessions as I was. We talked a lot during that time. He told me that he was there writing a story for ‘Rolling Stone’. I don’t know if it was true, but he said it was. Michael always seemed trustworthy to me. I liked him a lot. I don’t know anything about Vosse and Siegel leaving Brian, or being thrown out, for that matter. As for troubles with the 'family band,' I wouldn’t doubt that for a minute, what with ML and all.

Tricycle Rider: Yes, I am proud to say that I turned Brian on to ‘How To Speak Hip’. Del Close and Jon Brent were acquaintances of mine – we had mutual friends. I also introduced him to Lenny Bruce, Lord Buckley, Mort Sahl and Brother Dave Gardner. He didn’t get much of what they were saying, but remember that Brian didn’t know who Clark Gable, Gary Cooper and Cary Grant were. Talk about isolated…

Paul J B: There is nothing you could have said that could have hurt me more deeply than to be compared to Eugene Landy. Landy isolated Brian more than ever before – I tried to free him. Landy fed Brian injurious drugs and kept him in stupor to control him – I tried to free Brian’s mind with deep conversations, and, reluctantly, with pot and LSD, and I believe I did. Landy was a charlatan and a quack in for the fame and the money – I was the opposite. Paul, you are one cruel SOB to have the nerve to post what you did. I’m shaken by your sadism.

AGD: You don’t need Vosse to verify that I was at those sessions. Just ask Brian. God, you’re hard to please…

Century Deprived: Yes, ‘defeated and bullied.’ It was a downward slope after that. He has never fully recovered. He’s in the hands of his keepers now and forever…

Note to All: Please read, or re-read, my Reply #411 on: January 24, 2015. Perhaps this will result in my being asked questions that I can answer with experience and relevance instead of those that are beyond my ability to address.


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« Reply #456 on: January 26, 2015, 10:52:05 PM »

What Nicko & the camp said 10fold.
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« Reply #457 on: January 26, 2015, 11:50:07 PM »

AGD: Correction: I had met Michael Vosse at Brian’s house a number of times before the ‘Pet Sounds’ sessions. We became good friends. I hung out with him for a time when David Leaf was interviewing both of us for the ‘Beautiful Dreamer’ documentary in San Francisco. He didn’t look well to me – haggard, weak and covered with extreme dandruff. Michael was at almost as many of the ‘Pet Sounds’ instrumental sessions as I was. We talked a lot during that time. He told me that he was there writing a story for ‘Rolling Stone’. I don’t know if it was true, but he said it was. Michael always seemed trustworthy to me. I liked him a lot. I don’t know anything about Vosse and Siegel leaving Brian, or being thrown out, for that matter. As for troubles with the 'family band,' I wouldn’t doubt that for a minute, what with ML and all.

Vosse from the Fusion article he wrote shortly after Smile crashed and burned:

"I first met Brian when I was sent to do an interview for Teen Set magazine (Capitol puff rag)... I wanted to talk about Pet Sounds because I felt he wanted to do soem sort of religious music... He was telling me about some of the things he was working on... In the press releases the album was referred to as Dumb Angel but he told me the record was going to be called Smile."

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AGD: You don’t need Vosse to verify that I was at those sessions. Just ask Brian. God, you’re hard to please…

Yet you originally stated that he could verify your presence. And yes, I am.
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« Reply #458 on: January 27, 2015, 12:33:39 AM »

Add Some:  No, Brian didn’t ‘…get there’. I could take him only so far. That’s why I said ‘partly there’ in my post. But, as I wrote, it was enough to get rid of Murry, Marilyn and at least put ML at a distance. Brian couldn’t get rid of ML. He controlled the band, he was the lead singer, ML was ‘the band.’ Lose ML and you lose the road. He couldn’t do that to Carl, Dennis and Al. It was an institution that he would have to work around. Which is what he ultimately did. Little by little, and with the help of the media, ML began to understand that his contribution to the material was trivial, and that Brian was increasingly perceived as a genius. I think he faded because there were no more battles to be won.



In what way exactly did you help to get rid of Marilyn? You mean in convincing them to divorce a few short years later in 1979?

And what sort or excrescence feels pride at supposedly wrecking somebody else`s marriage?
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« Reply #459 on: January 27, 2015, 02:47:46 AM »

How could Pet Sounds be inspired by Revolver, when Revolver came out 3 months after Pet Sounds?
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« Reply #460 on: January 27, 2015, 03:48:40 AM »

Evidently Brian was once more lying to all of us when he said Pet Sounds was his response to Rubber Soul.
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« Reply #461 on: January 27, 2015, 04:04:38 AM »

How could Pet Sounds be inspired by Revolver, when Revolver came out 3 months after Pet Sounds?

....although, in fairness, even ex-Beatles have been known to confuse Revolver and Rubber Soul.  That's the trouble with the 60s, the people who 'were there' often have the worst recall.  If only they'd kept daily journals for the archivists of the future; what were they thinking...?  Wink
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« Reply #462 on: January 27, 2015, 04:53:27 AM »

I agree...on THAT one...Revolver/Rubber Soul...I think Lorren just got 'em mixed up.  Anyway he has pointed out twice now that he would prefer that the questions come from a different angle and referenced a thread number this time.  So I'm going to check that out.

I went to the same high school as former National Baseball League MVP Joey Votto.  Can't tell you a thing about him though.  The timing's way off.  [but only by about 30 years]
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« Reply #463 on: January 27, 2015, 09:16:19 AM »


OneEar/OneEye: I have no information on this subject. As I recently posted, my interest was in Brian, not in the music. Questions like this are not relevant to my experience.



Fair enough, though I would think that having an interest in Brian might naturally lead one to the music as well. 
Guess not, at least in your case anyway.   
   
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« Reply #464 on: January 27, 2015, 09:57:11 AM »

Lorren -

As an improvisor in the style pioneered by Del Close, I'm also very interested in any experiences with him you'd care to share. Are you aware of Brian and Del ever crossing paths? I remember being amazed the first time I heard about Brian being a fan.
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« Reply #465 on: January 27, 2015, 09:59:40 AM »

How could Pet Sounds be inspired by Revolver, when Revolver came out 3 months after Pet Sounds?

....although, in fairness, even ex-Beatles have been known to confuse Revolver and Rubber Soul.  That's the trouble with the 60s, the people who 'were there' often have the worst recall.  If only they'd kept daily journals for the archivists of the future; what were they thinking...?  Wink

If the people who 'were there' have the worst recall, why are we even asking this guy any questions at all? This seems to be just another thing that he's contradicted himself on.
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« Reply #466 on: January 27, 2015, 11:49:30 AM »

Tony Asher said that he introduced Brian to How to Speak Hip
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"There was an album out called How to Speak Hip ... a lampooning of the language instruction albums," Asher explained. "I played it for Brian, and it destroyed him, killed him. Brian picked up a couple of references on the album. One of them was this hip character that said if everyone were 'laid back and cool, then we'd have world peace.' So Brian started going around saying, 'Hey, would somebody get me a candy bar, and then we'll have world peace.'" Asher said Brian "even made an acetate disc with a label on it with the title. He talked about calling Let's Go Away For Awhile 'And Then We'll Have World Peace.'"

If the people who 'were there' have the worst recall, why are we even asking this guy any questions at all? This seems to be just another thing that he's contradicted himself on.
I'm also wondering why the hell anybody would think Daro would remember the meaning behind a single handwritten note he hasn't seen in 50 years -- if ever at all.

Daro, I do have to ask about this comment:
Buddhahat: Brian was intimidated by The Beatles from their first records. At first, they were just rockers, but what knocked him off his feet was ‘Revolver’ -- whole new change in tone and artistry. From that album on, he felt competitive
In a 1995 TV documentary, Brian said:

"I was flipping out. I couldn't understand how a group could be just yelled and screamed at. The music they made, 'I Want to Hold Your Hand' for example, wasn't even that great a record, but they just screamed at it. ... It got us off our asses in the studio. We started cutting – we said 'look, don't worry about the Beatles, we'll cut our own stuff."

What do you make of this comment? It doesn't sound like he was actually intimidated by their music, at least until Rubber Soul (...or "Revolver").
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« Reply #467 on: January 27, 2015, 01:05:20 PM »

Daro,

If you have the time, it may be a good refresher to peruse some texts that have been written over the years involving the epochs you were around for. Besides the Wikipedia pages for Pet Sounds and Smile, there is also a website that reprints the 200-some-odd-pages liner notes that were published with The Pet Sounds Sessions box set in 1997. I will attach some links:

-Mike Love's preface written for The Pet Sounds sessions booklet
-Tony Asher's comments from The Pet Sounds Sessions
-Marilyn Wilson comments from The Pet Sounds sessions
-Pet Sounds article on Wikipedia (written by the public, not any single editor)
-Smile article on Wikipedia (written by the public, not any single editor)

Feel free to quickly skim through these pages. Maybe they'll conjure up some additional thoughts, memories, or inconsistencies from your POV that have yet to arise in the thread. At best, you'll be brought up to speed with the rest of the board's knowledge.
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Lorren Daro
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« Reply #468 on: January 27, 2015, 01:20:54 PM »

Nicko1234: What I meant by getting rid of Marilyn was he distanced himself from her, and no longer took her hysterics personally. It eventually led to divorce. Do I regret breaking up that marriage? Not for a second…

Mr Verlander: Yes, I may have been wrong about ‘Revolver’. It may have been ‘Rubber Soul’. These are all slightly dim memories. I’m doing my best, but I screw up now and then.

AGD: Please read the above about the Beatles album mistake.

I didn’t imagine that Vosse was at the ‘Pet Sounds’ instrumental sessions. I don’t know or care why he states differently. He may have had his own reasons for doing that. I don’t imagine human beings where they don’t exist. I wish I had someone else to verify this, but I don’t. I guess we’ll have to live with it. You’re a snide f***, aren’t you, AGD? You don’t get out much, do you?

OneEar/OneEye: I said that I love the BB records, and a lot of other music, as well. I used to be a professional musician. But, my interest doesn’t include the technical aspects of music. My true interest is in human beings and their behavior. My greatest loves are for literature and philosophy. Sorry…

Doinnothin: Del Close, and Jon Brent, for that matter, never met Brian that I know of.

Puni puni: I introduced the ‘How To Speak Hip’ album to Tony Asher. We played it many times together in my living room. He passed it on to Brian, as I did. I know I was the first to play it for him.

Note: I’m getting tired of this nit-picking and dumb questions. People trying to bust me at every turn. This is no longer fun – or meaningful. Yes, I’m an old man. I don’t have the clear memory or the patience for this anymore. Yes, I make mistakes, but they’re usually technical ones – dates, etc. – I ask for depth and I get shallow. I’m drifting away…







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« Reply #469 on: January 27, 2015, 01:50:50 PM »

Thanks for the clarification on How to Speak Hip. Again, I agree that some of the questions you've been asked are unforgivingly trivial, like dates or specific track information. I can hardly distinguish what I did in the months of 2012 between the months of 2013, let alone 2002 or 2003, or in your dramatically understated case, 1964 and 1965.

I also would not consider the publications written by Vosse or other people from that era to be gospel. Even though most people treat such contemporary articles as 100% truth, I've found some of them susceptible to bias, falsehoods, or other inaccuracies. It'd be a shame if you do decide to leave.
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« Reply #470 on: January 27, 2015, 01:56:34 PM »


Note: I’m getting tired of this nit-picking and dumb questions. People trying to bust me at every turn. This is no longer fun – or meaningful. Yes, I’m an old man. I don’t have the clear memory or the patience for this anymore. Yes, I make mistakes, but they’re usually technical ones – dates, etc. – I ask for depth and I get shallow. I’m drifting away…









I think anyone can understand an older person making some factual errors. But not somebody constantly contradicting himself from one post to the next.

And asking for details is hardly shallow is it. Simply accepting everything (including the completely false stuff) that anyone posts would hardly be `deeper` would it...

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« Reply #471 on: January 27, 2015, 02:12:52 PM »

Nicko1234: What I meant by getting rid of Marilyn was he distanced himself from her, and no longer took her hysterics personally. It eventually led to divorce. Do I regret breaking up that
Note: I’m getting tired of this nit-picking and dumb questions. People trying to bust me at every turn. This is no longer fun – or meaningful. Yes, I’m an old man. I don’t have the clear memory or the patience for this anymore. Yes, I make mistakes, but they’re usually technical ones – dates, etc. – I ask for depth and I get shallow. I’m drifting away…


And some of us questioned the quality of the queries put forward in yesterdays Q and A?  Child's-play.  I kind of look at Lorren as a mine.  [Sorry Lorren...I know you're actually blood, flesh and bone...with feelings too]  The thing is...THIS is an opportunity...chalk full of gems.  Yes sifting is required.  Some of you?  Good thing you're not miners.  You'd have starved to death after your supplies ran out.

There is work to be done here.  Let those who can...do it.

Or is it just another means to once again chase information away and into hiding...never to be accessed again?   The man is in the second half of his 70s for gawd sake.  This shyte happened  when he was in his late 20s.  Who sat next to YOU in your Grade 1 class picture?  Both sides?  And who's that behind you?  Got the answers?  Can you name the crossing guards?  Don't expect perfect.  Expect some gems.  Doctor Gee Zeus!!!!

Un-fucking-believable. Angry
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 02:19:48 PM by Add Some » Logged

"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

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« Reply #472 on: January 27, 2015, 02:20:05 PM »

Nicko1234: What I meant by getting rid of Marilyn was he distanced himself from her, and no longer took her hysterics personally. It eventually led to divorce. Do I regret breaking up that marriage? Not for a second…

Mr Verlander: Yes, I may have been wrong about ‘Revolver’. It may have been ‘Rubber Soul’. These are all slightly dim memories. I’m doing my best, but I screw up now and then.

AGD: Please read the above about the Beatles album mistake.

I didn’t imagine that Vosse was at the ‘Pet Sounds’ instrumental sessions. I don’t know or care why he states differently. He may have had his own reasons for doing that. I don’t imagine human beings where they don’t exist. I wish I had someone else to verify this, but I don’t. I guess we’ll have to live with it. You’re a snide f***, aren’t you, AGD? You don’t get out much, do you?

OneEar/OneEye: I said that I love the BB records, and a lot of other music, as well. I used to be a professional musician. But, my interest doesn’t include the technical aspects of music. My true interest is in human beings and their behavior. My greatest loves are for literature and philosophy. Sorry…

Doinnothin: Del Close, and Jon Brent, for that matter, never met Brian that I know of.

Puni puni: I introduced the ‘How To Speak Hip’ album to Tony Asher. We played it many times together in my living room. He passed it on to Brian, as I did. I know I was the first to play it for him.

Note: I’m getting tired of this nit-picking and dumb questions. People trying to bust me at every turn. This is no longer fun – or meaningful. Yes, I’m an old man. I don’t have the clear memory or the patience for this anymore. Yes, I make mistakes, but they’re usually technical ones – dates, etc. – I ask for depth and I get shallow. I’m drifting away…









And we asked for reliable insight and are getting nothing but contradictions and inaccuracies. I don't want to see you go, but drop the woe is me attitude. Nobody has said anything uncalled for, and AGD is just trying to tie what you're saying into what else we know as best he can. Petty insults his way only make you look worse.

But, I've got a question. I asked this to Brian and (predictably) got no response. So, were you one of the people who was involved in the Psychedelic Sounds comedy sketches by any chance? I'm not sure who all was. They were recorded in December '66. If you were there, if you remember...what can you say about them? Did Brian talk about how they might fit into SMiLE or if they were for something else?
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
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« Reply #473 on: January 27, 2015, 02:32:14 PM »

AGD and others - relax, man. That's all I have to say about that.

Hey, Daro, what I'm really interested is what the LSD experience was like back then. I know growing up in the '90s, I had tons of information on esoteric topics thanks to the internet. I was logging in by about '96, and that really opened worlds of new thought to me.

Growing up in the '50s, I'd imagine access to unconventional information was much harder to come by. Knowing where to look for and how to find all the heady ideas circulating back then almost required knowing the right people. Growing in Hawthorne like Brian did, it would've been tough to plug in. Who would've planted the seeds of greater ideas in one's head in a town like that?

So when you did meet the right people, read the right books, and perhaps dabbled in the psychedelic experience, it must've been mind-blowing on a level I can't imagine. I know my first psychedelic experience was very shocking, even though I was thoroughly versed on what to expect. For someone like Brian, it must've been like - well - seeing idea.

I'm curious about what sorts of philosophical ideas relating to music and life were being passed around then in the "hip" circles. People must've felt they were right at the stage when one grand epoch transitions into another one. It was, undoubtedly, monumental. I sense Brian combing all sorts of eras in his music in a very intelligent way, sort of like this expansive vision of everything that was America at that time.

I guess I don't know where I'm ultimately heading with this one, but I thought maybe it could spark an interesting discussion.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 02:49:40 PM by Mr. Cohen » Logged
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« Reply #474 on: January 27, 2015, 02:47:15 PM »

One persons "trivial" may be another's "meaningful".   If he doesn't know the answer to something or feels it is beneath him (or whatever) to address it, that's fine - don't answer it, but there's no need to be insulting those who are asking questions is there?   Just because you feel they aren't worthy enough questions?   Roll Eyes
As far as I have seen so far there hasn't been anything "deep" being presented.   This is being blamed on the questions being posed, but maybe it's just a matter of there not being much depth there in the first place.   All I have read thus far is the same old "people around Brian (family/wife/record company) were not nice to him and he wasn't allowed to flourish, etc.  
All that may very well be true - but it's nothing new or deep.  

Sorry if you don't appreciate my post here, but I am little rankled by some of this crap.   I will excuse myself from any further participation in this thread.
So please carry on you miners of gems, you lofty, deep thinkers  Thumbs Up
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