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Author Topic: The Lorren Daro Thread  (Read 233802 times)
Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #175 on: January 20, 2015, 10:42:46 PM »

When all is said and done, and it's not yet, I'm going with the one who was there at the time. There is no more authentic take on any subject than being present with the players in the same setting at the time it went down. Nothing...nothing can substitute that experience. You may not like the man, or his point of view but don't judge  him on a few posts, give credit where credit is due. He was infinitely closer to the scene than the majority here. In other words, let's not  shoot the messenger because someone here thinks they know better. Were you there in the mid sixties? Did you experience being with Brian and his family like this guy did, huh? Quite honestly, I'd like to see as much light as he cares to shed about all things Beach Boys because there is much more to learn regardless of who you are or what you think you know.  

An excellent and well-expressed post. Aside from his physical appearence and cackling in the DVD (and in this I'm not alone), the problem I have with giving his recent claims due gravitas are that they run counter to what a lot of other folk who were also there at the time have said, and that his sole proof is, in essence, "Brian lied to everyone else, but he told me the truth." The claims about Brian's 1991 book are so very easy to prove to be untrue, and note, he made much play about Brian not writing his own lyrics... then claimed that Brian wrote "IJWMFTT" and "GV" about him, and his wife, in the latter case actually using the words "listen to the lyrics"... which, aside from directly contradicting what he'd already said, were written by Mike in the latter instance. The relation of Brian's first trip has changed somewhat with each retelling. Based on these grounds, and his unfortunate mode of expression coupled with a disrespect for some key players, it's very hard to take him seriously, the more so when, as Ray noted, he apparently skedaddled as soon as he saw Brian was here. Why not stick around as ask Brian to confirm his claims ?

But to me, the most bizarre aspect of the whole farrago is that two years after the article was posted to seeming general indifference, he turns up here and elsewhere out of nowhere, all guns blazing, saying he's putting the record straight on criticisms that, unless I've missed something, no-one can find, certainly not on his own blog. To crib my ol' drinking buddy Will, methinks he doth protest too much. Before this, Darro was known, perhaps unfairly, for one thing and one thing only in the BB fan world: he was the guy who gave Brian LSD, an experience Brian later said shattered him, blew his mind and not in a good way. Now, suddenly, he's Brian's #1 buddy and the only person to protect him from all the others seeking to hitch a ride on his coattails. On the available evidence, I'd have to say he didn't do much of a job.

A final observation: being there at the time doesn't guarantee accurate recall. I've been that Person X wasn't at a particular session by Person Y (who also was present), yet the former is both listed on the AFM sheet and clearly audible on the session tapes.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 11:02:55 PM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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« Reply #176 on: January 20, 2015, 10:43:56 PM »

He made another tweet on the topic two hours ago.

Yes, I know - hence my reference to the original tweet.
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« Reply #177 on: January 20, 2015, 11:13:03 PM »

When all is said and done, and it's not yet, I'm going with the one who was there at the time. There is no more authentic take on any subject than being present with the players in the same setting at the time it went down. Nothing...nothing can substitute that experience. You may not like the man, or his point of view but don't judge  him on a few posts, give credit where credit is due. He was infinitely closer to the scene than the majority here. In other words, let's not  shoot the messenger because someone here thinks they know better. Were you there in the mid sixties? Did you experience being with Brian and his family like this guy did, huh? Quite honestly, I'd like to see as much light as he cares to shed about all things Beach Boys because there is much more to learn regardless of who you are or what you think you know.  

An excellent and well-expressed post. Aside from his physical appearence and cackling in the DVD (and in this I'm not alone), the problem I have with giving his recent claims due gravitas are that they run counter to what a lot of other folk who were also there at the time have said, and that his sole proof is, in essence, "Brian lied to everyone else, but he told me the truth." The claims about Brian's 1991 book are so very easy to prove to be untrue, and note, he made much play about Brian not writing his own lyrics... then claimed that Brian wrote "IJWMFTT" and "GV" about him, and his wife, in the latter case actually using the words "listen to the lyrics"... which, aside from directly contradicting what he'd already said, were written by Mike in the latter instance. The relation of Brian's first trip has changed somewhat with each retelling. Based on these grounds, and his unfortunate mode of expression coupled with a disrespect for some key players, it's very hard to take him seriously, the more so when, as Ray noted, he apparently skedaddled as soon as he saw Brian was here. Why not stick around as ask Brian to confirm his claims ?

But to me, the most bizarre aspect of the whole farrago is that two years after the article was posted to seeming general indifference, he turns up here and elsewhere out of nowhere, all guns blazing, saying he's putting the record straight on criticisms that, unless I've missed something, no-one can find, certainly not on his own blog. To crib my ol' drinking buddy Will, methinks he doth protest too much. Before this, Darro was known, perhaps unfairly, for one thing and one thing only in the BB fan world: he was the guy who gave Brian LSD, an experience Brian later said shattered him, blew his mind and not in a good way. Now, suddenly, he's Brian's #1 buddy and the only person to protect him from all the others seeking to hitch a ride on his coattails. On the available evidence, I'd have to say he didn't do much of a job.

A final observation: being there at the time doesn't guarantee accurate recall. I've been that Person X wasn't at a particular session by Person Y (who also was present), yet the former is both listed on the AFM sheet and clearly audible on the session tapes.

 w00t! Absolutely wonderful response, AGD. You summed it up perfectly. w00t!

 Thumbs Up We can end this thread here, gentlemen. There's really nothing more to be said after that. Thumbs Up
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« Reply #178 on: January 21, 2015, 12:07:07 AM »

Doesn't necessarily mean anything, and sure isn't related to Daro ...

But ...

Doesn't the David Marks "Lost Beach Boys" book have David claiming some of the good vibrations stuff being because of his mother?

Been a while since I read the book, but for the life of me, I have some memory of having read that.

Anyway. Not refuting dogs, Brian's mom, groovy chicks or anything. I wasn't there, and don't PARTICULARLY care about the origin (I love the song on its own merits).

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« Reply #179 on: January 21, 2015, 04:00:52 AM »

Don't remember. Brian wanted the lyric to include "Good Vibes" instead of vibrations. He argued that the expression that everyone used was "vibes" not vibrations. I acknowledged that, but convinced him that using vibes would trivialize the lyric.

Ah... note, "everyone", not "Loren's hot wife".

"Everyone" would include Lorren's hot wife Linda, ol' pal o' mine. (batting my eyes your way)

Brian has always stated very specifically that his mom told him about dogs & vibrations (just as he's always said it was Danny Hutton's calling everyone "Darlin'" that was responsible for another BB classic title). Thus, it's reasonable to assume that if Darro's wife had inspired him, he'd have told Tony "hey Loren's wife keeps saying "Good Vibes", what a great name for a song!" or some such.

As for VDP's tweet... I'm slightly flattered that he seemingly referenced a post of mine but the fact is, his original tweet on the topic was some 8 months old.

Did Brian say he named after Hutton or did Hutton say it was named after Hutton?

Either way, I'm not arguing with you old friend or the dog story. There is plenty to criticize, doubt, dispute, and argue with but the claim that Brian may have told someone that their wife was also an inspiration of GV has not been discredited yet. Both could be true.
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« Reply #180 on: January 21, 2015, 04:02:52 AM »

Aside from his physical appearence and cackling in the DVD (and in this I'm not alone),

Again, I'm astonished to hear you reiterate your belief that his physical appearance on the BD doc somehow undermines the authenticity of his claims. Using your own logic, where you call into question the veracity of a subject's entire recollection of events because you can prove they got one detail wrong (I see you do this time and time again), it should be perfectly acceptable for me to rubbish your opinions of Lorren Daro based on your blatant prejudice towards his physical appearance. Please, I would love to hear how, as an historian apparently dedicated to ideals of truth and factual accuracy, you can defend the act of judging someone's words based on their physical appearance? By your own rationale it should be OK for me to come on here and rubbish all Mike Love's recollections of the BB glory days because I think he looks a bit sleazy on stage these days, or because he was shitty about Brian on that 'Lifestyles of the Rich & Famous' show in the 80s. Trust me, ML comes across far worse on far more archival interview footage than Daro does in that doc.

However, I don't share your 'it's all true or none of it is' philosophy and so therefore wanted to respond to some of the more interesting points you make:

he made much play about Brian not writing his own lyrics...

As I said earlier, this is a good point. Daro does contradict himself here. However, being that Daro is not a BB fanboy like the rest of us, it's entirely feasible that he was unaware that Brian, during his career, occasionally contributed to the lyrics, or wrote them entirely. I imagine it would be easy to spend a lot of time with Brian during the Pet Sounds/Smile period and leave thinking that Brian never wrote his own lyrics.

then claimed that Brian wrote "IJWMFTT" and "GV" about him, and his wife, in the latter case actually using the words "listen to the lyrics"... which, aside from directly contradicting what he'd already said, were written by Mike in the latter instance.

As I said earlier, we know Brian took concepts in to writing sessions with Asher, so could easily have asked Asher to write a song about being out of step with the times (a concept inspired by discussions with Daro), then told Daro that the song was written about him. If Daro goes on to claim Brian wrote the song about Daro, he could mean 'write' in the loosest of terms i.e. that Brian took the concept to Asher who wrote the lyrics. Daro would therefore not be contradicting himself there. Brian did part-write the lyrical concept inasmuch as he supplied the initial concept. And, no, I'm not claiming that Daro's account of IJWMFTT is true - just creating an example of how, knowing BW's working process with Asher, Daro could simultaneously claim that Brian never wrote his own songs, yet wrote IJWMFTT for Daro. He's not lying - just clumsy with his phrasing and historical knowledge of BW's writing practice.


Me: Was your original title "Good, Good, Good Vibrations"?

Don't remember. Brian wanted the lyric to include "Good Vibes" instead of vibrations. He argued that the expression that everyone used was "vibes" not vibrations. I acknowledged that, but convinced him that using vibes would trivialize the lyric.


As for GV, although it pains me slightly AGD, I need to bow to your superior knowledge of the facts here: How come Asher claims to have written the Good Vibrations bit as per Cam's post above? Do we know for certain the Mike wrote that bit?  Either way, Cam's quote does lend some credence to Daro's claim that GV was about Lynda inasmuch as we have a quote where one of the song's writers (prior to and seemingly unaware of Daro's claim it should be noted) describes it being a phrase everyone was using and that Brian brought it to his attention. Yes, 'everyone' is not the same as 'Lynda' but maybe Brian was thinking of Lynda when he told him 'everyone is using the phrase'. Or maybe Asher is just generalising, or misremembering the fine details of that writing session. Again here, Brian, having taken the intial concept of the Good Vibes phrase in to Asher, could then have told Daro he wrote the song about Lynda. Although it's far from a smoking gun, Cam's quote does strengthen Daro's claim imo.

As for the Audree, dog story - Need we choose one or the other? Why can't both the Audree and Lynda stories be true? Sometimes various sources of inspiration can coalesce to form the basis of a song, surely?

it's very hard to take him seriously, the more so when, as Ray noted, he apparently skedaddled as soon as he saw Brian was here. Why not stick around as ask Brian to confirm his claims ?

I don't understand the reasoning behind the above point. Do any of us really believe that BW would answer anything other than safe, brand-friendly, questions on this board? Why should Daro exiting as BW arrives undermine the honesty of his claims? Daro, although saying some insensitive things about Brian, appears to remember him as a friend. I expect he was embarrassed to see BW show up at the exact same time. Really, what were the odds? If he'd stuck around and said more insensitive things you'd be criticising him for rubbing it in Brian's face. Leaving at that point (if BW's presence was a contributing factor) was a sensible thing to do.  I have been critical of Mike Love on the board and I suspect if he were to show up and start posting, I'd promptly log off in embarrassment. It doesn't mean I don't believe what I was posting, just that I'd rather not make my points direct to Mike Love's face.

A final observation: being there at the time doesn't guarantee accurate recall. I've been that Person X wasn't at a particular session by Person Y (who also was present), yet the former is both listed on the AFM sheet and clearly audible on the session tapes.

Of course witnessing historical events first hand isn't a guarantee for perfect recall of facts. Most of us arguing in support of Daro's presence on the board are suggesting that Daro's being there adds value to the information he's supplying compared to Jo Schmo hypothesising on what ifs 40 years down the line, behind a computer screen in another continent. Daro's is another perspective from a Smile-era insider that, just as we do with the words of Vosse, Anderle, Siegel etc. we can examine and analyse rationally, or at least that was the hope before egos, fear and small-mindness threw a spanner in the works.

Van Dyke just posted on twitter. "I confirm Lorren Daro's account of the 60s: an inconvenient truth, in its candor. Never judge a book by its movie!"

Finally, I find it surprising that you haven't at least expressed a passing interest in VDP's latest quote. Does this not also strengthen Daro's recollectons? Or are you also struggling with the 'inconvenience' that VDP alludes to? I would be interested to hear your take on the comment, and on VDP's integrity. From other corners of the board I can already see it being called into question based on VDP's lack of positivity towards Brian of late.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 04:40:37 AM by buddhahat » Logged

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« Reply #181 on: January 21, 2015, 05:10:41 AM »

I thought that vibes story had been published since I heard it:
http://www.npr.org/2000/06/19/1075634/good-vibrations

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« Reply #182 on: January 21, 2015, 05:45:06 AM »

As far as I know, no sites are hosting critical dialogues on him. No one attacked him on his essay page. If he feels hounded he must be the most sensitive man alive--very ironic considering he has no problem saying whatever rude drivel he can think about anyone else in the beach boys world.

I remember in the wake of the Beautiful Dreamer release that there was quite a lot of negativity directed towards Lorren Daro - Primarily for him having supplied drugs to Brian in the 60s, but also because, to some, he appeared flippant about it on camera. There were also, iirc, questions raised about his name change. I can't remember if people were scathing about it but I wouldn't be surprised.

Unfortunately the search function is currently not my friend as I can't find the exact posts I remember although there are some later ones alluding to the above stuff.

My point is, he quite rightly felt the need to 'set the record straight' as I suspect would you or I if we encountered that sort of vitriol directed towards us online. I don't think he's being over-sensitive at all. I suspect his original essay was a direct reaction to content he read on this board.

If you're coming here as an authority and trying to set the record straight, you need to know your stuff.

I find the above challenge ironic, given you're a relative newcomer and weren't a member when Lorren Daro first became a contentious figure here. I've participated in this board for 9 years and wouldn't dream of accusing anyone here of not knowing their stuff - most of them are far more clued up than me on BB 101 - Even you, I suspect.

Nothing personal, Mujan. We obviously have our differences and I'm not singling you out for any other reason than you're one of the more outspoken on all this and I find your comments more provocative.
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« Reply #183 on: January 21, 2015, 05:45:56 AM »

I thought that vibes story had been published since I heard it:
http://www.npr.org/2000/06/19/1075634/good-vibrations



Thanks - I don't think I was aware of this. Interesting reading.
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« Reply #184 on: January 21, 2015, 06:19:02 AM »

I don't know if Daro and Van Dyke remained friends. The Daro thread would have been a good place to ask. However, having seen VDP's twitter, and considering the latter's famous quote about spanking Brian out of his behavior/state of mind, I wonder if those two share the thesis about Brian faking insanity in order to cope with the demands of his life and environment.
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« Reply #185 on: January 21, 2015, 07:46:08 AM »

Wasn't VDP Lorren's friend first?

No secret I'm not a fan of VDP (musically...don't know him as a person although I have a very strong feeling we wouldn't get on at all) but maybe the tweet is being analyzed wrong by us.
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« Reply #186 on: January 21, 2015, 07:57:59 AM »

Wasn't VDP Lorren's friend first?

No secret I'm not a fan of VDP (musically...don't know him as a person although I have a very strong feeling we wouldn't get on at all) but maybe the tweet is being analyzed wrong by us.

I believe so, I'm pretty sure Asher and Daro knew each other prior to PS. Doesn't LD also say that in the essay?

Could be re. VDP. It also seems like lately VDP's suggesting things weren't as rosey between he and Brian as we fans had wanted to think. Just projecting from Anderle and Vosse's comments about relations between the two in the time period. Maybe one or all of them will comment on the board.
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« Reply #187 on: January 21, 2015, 08:10:44 AM »

he made much play about Brian not writing his own lyrics...

As I said earlier, this is a good point. Daro does contradict himself here. However, being that Daro is not a BB fanboy like the rest of us, it's entirely feasible that he was unaware that Brian, during his career, occasionally contributed to the lyrics, or wrote them entirely. I imagine it would be easy to spend a lot of time with Brian during the Pet Sounds/Smile period and leave thinking that Brian never wrote his own lyrics.

Darro stated that Brian never wrote his own lyrics, and backed that up by claiming Brian had told him that back in the early days it was Mike, Usher & Christian, uncredited. Thus, it's not him misunderstanding. He's very firm on this point: Brian never wrote lyrics, because Brian told him so... and then he cites the lyrics of "GV" as "proof" that it's about his wife. That's the kind of logic that would insult the intellect of a fern. Pretty much all his claims come back to the same refrain: "Brian told me so...".

Van Dyke just posted on twitter. "I confirm Lorren Daro's account of the 60s: an inconvenient truth, in its candor. Never judge a book by its movie!"

Finally, I find it surprising that you haven't at least expressed a passing interest in VDP's latest quote. Does this not also strengthen Daro's recollectons? Or are you also struggling with the 'inconvenience' that VDP alludes to? I would be interested to hear your take on the comment, and on VDP's integrity. From other corners of the board I can already see it being called into question based on VDP's lack of positivity towards Brian of late.

No, it doesn't strengthen Darro's recollections in any way or form, because it's not about them. VDP says he can "confirm Lorren Daro's account of the 60s", not that he can confirm the specifics of what Darro has said about Brian. For someone who chooses his words as carefully as he does, that's a significant difference. I didn't comment on it because I figured everyone else would similarly pick up on what Van Dyke said... or didn't.
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« Reply #188 on: January 21, 2015, 08:13:51 AM »

he made much play about Brian not writing his own lyrics...

As I said earlier, this is a good point. Daro does contradict himself here. However, being that Daro is not a BB fanboy like the rest of us, it's entirely feasible that he was unaware that Brian, during his career, occasionally contributed to the lyrics, or wrote them entirely. I imagine it would be easy to spend a lot of time with Brian during the Pet Sounds/Smile period and leave thinking that Brian never wrote his own lyrics.

Darro stated that Brian never wrote his own lyrics, and backed that up by claiming Brian had told him that back in the early days it was Mike, Usher & Christian, uncredited. Thus, it's not him misunderstanding. He's very firm on this point: Brian never wrote lyrics, because Brian told him so... and then he cites the lyrics of "GV" as "proof" that it's about his wife. That's the kind of logic that would insult the intellect of a fern. Pretty much all his claims come back to the same refrain: "Brian told me so...".

Yup, and anybody who knows anything about the BB history knows that when it comes to songwriting credits, one must (in the words of Walter White) 'tread lightly'.
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« Reply #189 on: January 21, 2015, 08:27:08 AM »

Eh, I'll give him a pass on the Brian/lyrics question.

Remember, at that time Brian was receiving sole writing credits on many songs that actually had lyrics written or co-written by Mike. Brian might have mentioned that to Darro, information that Darro garbled either then or in memory (it's been 50 years) as Brian never wrote the lyrics.
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« Reply #190 on: January 21, 2015, 08:34:01 AM »

he made much play about Brian not writing his own lyrics...

As I said earlier, this is a good point. Daro does contradict himself here. However, being that Daro is not a BB fanboy like the rest of us, it's entirely feasible that he was unaware that Brian, during his career, occasionally contributed to the lyrics, or wrote them entirely. I imagine it would be easy to spend a lot of time with Brian during the Pet Sounds/Smile period and leave thinking that Brian never wrote his own lyrics.

Darro stated that Brian never wrote his own lyrics, and backed that up by claiming Brian had told him that back in the early days it was Mike, Usher & Christian, uncredited. Thus, it's not him misunderstanding. He's very firm on this point: Brian never wrote lyrics, because Brian told him so... and then he cites the lyrics of "GV" as "proof" that it's about his wife. That's the kind of logic that would insult the intellect of a fern. Pretty much all his claims come back to the same refrain: "Brian told me so...".

Yes but Daro would've been aware of Brian's writing practise I'm sure i.e. taking concepts in to his writing partners as springboards. So Daro could believe that Brian never wrote lyrics specifically, yet had a hand in steering the subject matter i.e. 'wrote' songs in a loose sense.

I don't share your belief that the above contradiction totally undermines the claims. I think your thinking is inflexible to say the least regarding that point and you're getting hung up on a small detail and stubbornly ignoring the bigger, more interesting, question - i.e. could Daro and his wife have feasibly inspired those songs? In the case of GV and Asher's similar comments about Brian originally intending it to be 'Good Vibes' because 'everybody's saying it' I'd say it's not unreasonable at all to consider that he may be telling the truth.

The contradiction you highlight just strikes me as a minor linguistic error at most - the type that occurs when people describe the abstract, alchemical process of 'writing a song'.

Out of curiosity - What is the proof that Mike Love wrote the Good Vibrations hook? I know the story about him coming up with it in a car. It's obviously in conflict with Asher's claims. Have these two stories been reconciled somehow i.e. has one been exposed as false?
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« Reply #191 on: January 21, 2015, 08:35:13 AM »

I see a great deal of "after-spin" going on here, which is understandable. But Andrew continues to attempt to discredit Daro with only a trace amount of evidence--a few comments that he is exploding out of context and examining with a logic that is half induction and half obsessive desperation. Trying to discredit Daro solely on the lyrics question is the type of approach that gets you a D- in debating class. There are broader issues here that are being side-stepped. The fact is that despite what we think we know about the 1966-67 time period, there is still much that we don't. Anderle's discussions with Paul Williams created a set of inchoate scenarios; Tom Nolan tried to go further into the supposed flashpoints for the project; a great deal of research has been done to look at the session logs--and the result of all that is still mysterious and "beautiful even its obscurity."

So here we have someone who was documented as a particularly infamous person in the 1965-67 scene who shows up, possibly suffering from his own demons, who begins very badly (a not-uncommon occurrence, if one examines prior examples here...) and the response is to demonize, marginalize, immediately discredit and dismiss him out of hand. That all might well be the right result but it is impossible to make that claim given what has happened to date. No amount of "geometric logic" is sufficient to draw these conclusions. People need to reexamine their own motives for the behavior being exhibited here.

I am 100% in favor of what the mods did with one major exception--I believe that they should have drawn a straw, and the one who got the short one should have posted here announcing that after careful review from the umpiring crew in New York (and, hey, Brian would love a baseball reference...) that the thread was being pulled. To do so in the "dead of night" was ill-considered IMO. And I hasten to say that this is one of the very few times that the mods have made such a mistake--I have nothing but respect for the work they do here (in addition to being some of the most attuned-to-the-music folks we have here). Making the decision is hard, and I accept the decision even though I personally disagree--it's their call, and I respect that. But we should have been told what that decision was and what was happening at the time, instead of operating as if it could simply disappear without a trace.

Brian and VDP is a long, LONG separate thread that should happen here--or, perhaps, happen again in light of recent developments, even if it's happened before (and I apologize...time constraints really prevent me from checking back through the archives). It is one of the keys to that time frame--and given that Daro (Schwartz) knew VDP before Brian (as Billy was just referencing with his question), it only points out the lost opportunity to examine all that. VDP has been strategically hazy and surreal about SMiLE for years, perhaps because he's still working out the long-term effects of that complicated relationship.

Finally--a lot of the literature touches upon the unique family elements that made life so complicated for Brian. They reference the pressure he was under. It seems that there are acceptable ways to suggest the he was "in over his head" during this great creative surge and there are unacceptable ways--and it occurs that Loren Daro's comments have been examined in the light of the semi-consensual narrative that's built up over time and are being rejected because they potentially disrupt that narrative.
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« Reply #192 on: January 21, 2015, 08:43:12 AM »

Finally, I find it surprising that you haven't at least expressed a passing interest in VDP's latest quote. Does this not also strengthen Daro's recollectons? Or are you also struggling with the 'inconvenience' that VDP alludes to? I would be interested to hear your take on the comment, and on VDP's integrity. From other corners of the board I can already see it being called into question based on VDP's lack of positivity towards Brian of late.

No, it doesn't strengthen Darro's recollections in any way or form, because it's not about them. VDP says he can "confirm Lorren Daro's account of the 60s", not that he can confirm the specifics of what Darro has said about Brian. For someone who chooses his words as carefully as he does, that's a significant difference. I didn't comment on it because I figured everyone else would similarly pick up on what Van Dyke said... or didn't.

Sorry, I'm not with you. Yes VDP is not being specific by using the phrase "Lorren Daro's account of the 60s" - but it is twitter remember so he doesn't have much room to focus. However, in light of the timing, it's fair to assume VDP is referring to Daro's essay. What else could he be referring to? I wasn't suggesting that VDP was specifically endorsing Daro's claims about GV and IJWMFTT. I was arguing however that VDP's support of Daro and his essay strengthens Daro's claims in the essay and his credibility as a source IF, like me, you trust the credibility of VDP as a source.

If you are seriously arguing that VDP is NOT referring to the essay in question but some other hypothetical account of the 60s that Daro made somewhere off the record, then I really see no point in continuing this discussion with you as that is just not rational imo. Maybe I misunderstood you?
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« Reply #193 on: January 21, 2015, 08:52:14 AM »

Trying to discredit Daro solely on the lyrics question is the type of approach that gets you a D- in debating class.

As stated before, several times, it's not just the lyrics contradiction, but also the nonsense about the 1991 book, the reliance on "Brian told me this, but lied to everyone else" and the sudden appearance from nowhere two years after the article was posted, vowing to set the record straight in the face of criticisms that, to date, no-one can actually find. Oh, and the immoderate language and character assassination. In 1966, Marilyn was eighteen years old ! At an age when most girls were still in highschool or junior college, she was running a household and trying to care for an increasingly fragile, easily led husband. When Brian took his first trip, she was just seventeen. And Darro called her a cow. Like I said,  in the now quarantined thread, pure class. Ignoring the inaccuracies and questionable claims, Darro's article was extremely self serving, to the point of obnoxiousness. As I stated before, if he was the only one to try and protect Brian, he did a damn poor job.
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« Reply #194 on: January 21, 2015, 09:01:49 AM »

he made much play about Brian not writing his own lyrics...
As I said earlier, this is a good point. Daro does contradict himself here. However, being that Daro is not a BB fanboy like the rest of us, it's entirely feasible that he was unaware that Brian, during his career, occasionally contributed to the lyrics, or wrote them entirely. I imagine it would be easy to spend a lot of time with Brian during the Pet Sounds/Smile period and leave thinking that Brian never wrote his own lyrics.
Darro stated that Brian never wrote his own lyrics, and backed that up by claiming Brian had told him that back in the early days it was Mike, Usher & Christian, uncredited. Thus, it's not him misunderstanding. He's very firm on this point: Brian never wrote lyrics, because Brian told him so... and then he cites the lyrics of "GV" as "proof" that it's about his wife. That's the kind of logic that would insult the intellect of a fern. Pretty much all his claims come back to the same refrain: "Brian told me so...".
Andrew - once this poster, "started" on the lyrics, which were adjudicated, nothing that was said, appeared credible to me.  A full inquiry was made.  

My first thought was "who was driving, while 'trip' impaired?" Who was being responsible? It is hardly anything to have bragging rights over.  I hope I correctly remember (because I can't re-read them) the tale, as inconsistent throughout, and agree. And, find it offensive that with a status as "guest" in Marilyn's home, why he would insult her.  What happens in Vegas...

Maybe there is an agenda (of revisionism) at hand...I'm at a loss to figure what his "goal" might be.

And, I do understand why the thread was pulled and archived.  But since the awful events of the last few weeks, folks are now very sensitive about anything (however inappropriate, insensitive, false or even potentially libelous) being removed, as folks have died for such.  But, maybe the flip side is that it is a privately run and funded forum...

And we are "guests," and should behave accordingly.  Wink
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« Reply #195 on: January 21, 2015, 09:03:29 AM »

I see a great deal of "after-spin" going on here, which is understandable. But Andrew continues to attempt to discredit Daro with only a trace amount of evidence--a few comments that he is exploding out of context and examining with a logic that is half induction and half obsessive desperation. Trying to discredit Daro solely on the lyrics question is the type of approach that gets you a D- in debating class. There are broader issues here that are being side-stepped. The fact is that despite what we think we know about the 1966-67 time period, there is still much that we don't. Anderle's discussions with Paul Williams created a set of inchoate scenarios; Tom Nolan tried to go further into the supposed flashpoints for the project; a great deal of research has been done to look at the session logs--and the result of all that is still mysterious and "beautiful even its obscurity."

So here we have someone who was documented as a particularly infamous person in the 1965-67 scene who shows up, possibly suffering from his own demons, who begins very badly (a not-uncommon occurrence, if one examines prior examples here...) and the response is to demonize, marginalize, immediately discredit and dismiss him out of hand. That all might well be the right result but it is impossible to make that claim given what has happened to date. No amount of "geometric logic" is sufficient to draw these conclusions. People need to reexamine their own motives for the behavior being exhibited here.

I am 100% in favor of what the mods did with one major exception--I believe that they should have drawn a straw, and the one who got the short one should have posted here announcing that after careful review from the umpiring crew in New York (and, hey, Brian would love a baseball reference...) that the thread was being pulled. To do so in the "dead of night" was ill-considered IMO. And I hasten to say that this is one of the very few times that the mods have made such a mistake--I have nothing but respect for the work they do here (in addition to being some of the most attuned-to-the-music folks we have here). Making the decision is hard, and I accept the decision even though I personally disagree--it's their call, and I respect that. But we should have been told what that decision was and what was happening at the time, instead of operating as if it could simply disappear without a trace.

Brian and VDP is a long, LONG separate thread that should happen here--or, perhaps, happen again in light of recent developments, even if it's happened before (and I apologize...time constraints really prevent me from checking back through the archives). It is one of the keys to that time frame--and given that Daro (Schwartz) knew VDP before Brian (as Billy was just referencing with his question), it only points out the lost opportunity to examine all that. VDP has been strategically hazy and surreal about SMiLE for years, perhaps because he's still working out the long-term effects of that complicated relationship.

Finally--a lot of the literature touches upon the unique family elements that made life so complicated for Brian. They reference the pressure he was under. It seems that there are acceptable ways to suggest the he was "in over his head" during this great creative surge and there are unacceptable ways--and it occurs that Loren Daro's comments have been examined in the light of the semi-consensual narrative that's built up over time and are being rejected because they potentially disrupt that narrative.
I thought I made it clear that I pulled it when I did because I had just got home from work? It wasn't I'll considered...it was the only time it was feasible. Sorry if I sound harsh...I feel like sh*t and the only reason I'm even online right now is because I called in sick. But yeah, by the time I get home, I literally have maybe two hours tops to eat, put my daughter to bed, shower, get my clothes ready for work the next day, possibly take a sh*t, and read the board. I wish I did post something when it was deleted, but everything happened at a rush; thankfully, my schedule changes to 3-midnight starting Sunday, so I'll have a little more time, but between work and moving, things have been crazy lately.
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« Reply #196 on: January 21, 2015, 09:04:52 AM »

Sorry, I'm not with you. Yes VDP is not being specific by using the phrase "Lorren Daro's account of the 60s" - but it is twitter remember so he doesn't have much room to focus. However, in light of the timing, it's fair to assume VDP is referring to Daro's essay. What else could he be referring to? I wasn't suggesting that VDP was specifically endorsing Daro's claims about GV and IJWMFTT. I was arguing however that VDP's support of Daro and his essay strengthens Daro's claims in the essay and his credibility as a source IF, like me, you trust the credibility of VDP as a source.

If you are seriously arguing that VDP is NOT referring to the essay in question but some other hypothetical account of the 60s that Daro made somewhere off the record, then I really see no point in continuing this discussion with you as that is just not rational imo. Maybe I misunderstood you?

Of course Van Dyke is referring to the article, but parts of it are about the 1960s music business culture, and in my mind, this is what VDP is referring to. You asked "Does this not also strengthen Daro's recollectons?" and my response was that, regarding what he had to say about Brian, no, it didn't.

Twitter affords 140 characters (the main reason I hardly ever use it - that's about hallway through the first sentence for me), more than enough for VDP to have said something like "I confirm that what Loren said about Brian is accurate": that's just over 50 characters. Van Dyke's wording was very specific - "I confirm Lorren Daro's account of the 60s". Do you see any mention of Brian Wilson in there ? I don't.

But... we're going round in circles here: you're sure you're right, I'm sure I am. I've had my say, in considerable and doubtless tedious detail. Bottom line - the inaccuracies, the lack of supporting proof, the internal contradictions and the intemperate mode of expression combine to make me have the gravest reservations as to Darro's credibility and trustworthiness, especially at this late remove.
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« Reply #197 on: January 21, 2015, 09:06:50 AM »

I think some people are giving far too much creedence to the opinions of a guy whose one claim to fame in life is turning Brian Wilson onto acid for the first time.
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« Reply #198 on: January 21, 2015, 09:07:16 AM »

Trying to discredit Daro solely on the lyrics question is the type of approach that gets you a D- in debating class.

As stated before, several times, it's not just the lyrics contradiction, but also the nonsense about the 1991 book, the reliance on "Brian told me this, but lied to everyone else" and the sudden appearance from nowhere two years after the article was posted, vowing to set the record straight in the face of criticisms that, to date, no-one can actually find. Oh, and the immoderate language and character assassination. In 1966, Marilyn was eighteen years old ! At an age when most girls were still in highschool or junior college, she was running a household and trying to care for an increasingly fragile, easily led husband. When Brian took his first trip, she was just seventeen. And Darro called her a cow. Like I said,  in the now quarantined thread, pure class. Ignoring the inaccuracies and questionable claims, Darro's article was extremely self serving, to the point of obnoxiousness. As I stated before, if he was the only one to try and protect Brian, he did a damn poor job.

Not only that, but it seems he only comes out of the woodwork anytime Brian's involved in something major. 2004-2005, 2012, now...notice a pattern? I'm trying like hell to not be a hypocrite and really go off, but it's starting to get extremely difficult.
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« Reply #199 on: January 21, 2015, 09:09:24 AM »

I think some people are giving far too much creedence to the opinions of a guy whose one claim to fame in life is turning Brian Wilson onto acid for the first time.
Thank you. To be fair, though, his other more worthwhile contribution was hooking Brian up with Asher.
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