John Stebbins FAQ Book: Rather harsh on Brian's Solo Tours and Handlers?

[Lee Marshall]

I get that.  It all makes sense Jude.  And I did consciously suggest that it was only "ONE" of the 'things'...but I kind of felt...especially after hearing HOW he recreated Pet Sounds in its entirety...and then Smile...etc...that THAT meant a GREAT deal to him.  You know...to do it RIGHT...the way he intended it to sound.

[NHC]

So many times I go back to what Kris Kristofferson once said, and I'm paraphrasing..."If you want to know the truth, just ask the studio janitor; he doesn't have "a side".
[/quote]

Which is somewhat ironic since he actually WAS the studio janitor at one point in his life (after leaving West Point and the Army for Nashville).

[LeeDempsey]

You know, the more I read this thread, the more uncomfortable I am with its mere existence...  Jon Stebbins is a great guy, a wonderful author, and a tremendous fan of Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys.  He's also a valuable contributor to this board.  I'm not sure what purpose it serves to single out the one (perhaps) most controversial chapter from Jon's collective writings, and start a thread about it -- unless the purpose is to draw the attention of new members of this board (e.g. Ray) to that chapter, and sit back and watch their reaction.

For example, despite the fact that David Leaf and I were friends, in 2001 I was critical of some of David's choices related to the TNT "All-Star Tribute to Brian Wilson" in my review in ESQ.  But David and I talked after I printed that, and we worked it out.  And if I were to re-write that review today, I would almost certainly change it somewhat given that I now have 14 years of additional perspective.  But if somebody were to create a new thread called "Why was Lee Dempsey critical of David Leaf in ESQ?", IMO it would serve no purpose other than to open up an old wound that has already healed -- or create new wounds with new members of this board that never read that review the first time.

I really enjoy reading Jon's contributions to this board.  Jon's a tough guy, and I know he can stick up for himself, but this thread seems to be an exercise in pot-stirring.  I agree that the original poster had the right to question Stebbins' motives and sources, but if that was truly the purpose, it seems to me that the same result could just have easily been achieved in a personal message to Stebbins, and a personal response from him.  JMO.

Lee

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

lowbacca asks an honest question about Stebbins' book and is met with insults. Something is not right here about honest questions about people claiming stuff about BW.....

Jon gave him an answer that he wasn't happy with. I didn't insult him, he used the words himself. I just disagreed with him about how he saw himself and his actions.

Edit: He must have thought some of us would think that, or he wouldn't have posted the terms that he did.

Gosh Darn....

I love this board and I'm grateful beyond words for the involvement of people like Desper, Lawlor, Stebbins & AGD etc. who are closer to or simply know more about the band and the individuals than we 'common' fans do, but there's a realm of instances - intellectually as well as behaviour-related - that I'm not comfortable with. Normally I stay away from those threads to begin with, but I seem to have stumbled into this one. My bad. Which doesn't mean I don't stand by what I said. Nevertheless, I can't be the only one here being uncomfortable with the atmosphere at times?


Keep cool everyone,
Lowbacca out.

I've been made to feel very uncomfortable on this board sometimes. Not by AGD or any honored guests, but there does seem to be an "old boys club" vibe here sometimes where outsiders/newcomers are made to feel very unwelcome or given a trial by fire as some sort of right of passage. Sometimes certain opinions that arent 100% in line with the status quo or in any way, in any conceivable way, disparaging of the band are met with derision. But I guess sh!t like that happens in any forum.

[runnersdialzero]

For example, despite the fact that David Leaf and I were friends, in 2001 I was critical of some of David's choices related to the TNT "All-Star Tribute to Brian Wilson" in my review in ESQ.  But David and I talked after I printed that, and we worked it out.  And if I were to re-write that review today, I would almost certainly change it somewhat given that I now have 14 years of additional perspective.  But if somebody were to create a new thread called "Why was Lee Dempsey critical of David Leaf in ESQ?", IMO it would serve no purpose other than to open up an old wound that has already healed -- or create new wounds with new members of this board that never read that review the first time.

You were probably right to criticize whatever David Leaf did/said in the context of The Beach Boys.

[The Shift]

Seems like a good point maybe to head for a beer… anyone coming? It's only 9am here in God's County but we can sit outside Booths supermarket with a bottle in a paper bag and chew the breeze. Last night I had a bottle of a novelty beer called Arse Liquor, actually an IPA which tasted suprisingly fresh and fine.

Anyone?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

My ultimate point Sheriff, is this; If you want to know the truth about something, if it is a major part of your life that you spend years pouring over to the point of cross-referencing quotes about subjects throughout decades, a year, a tour -- I say, put the mouse down. Leave the computer and meet the people you’re so interested in and ask them what you want to know. That’s exactly what I did for a career and I got exactly the answers I wanted, when I wanted, from precisely the people I wanted them from. I mean, Sheriff, you’ve posted over 4000 times on a message board about The Beach Boys. It’s a safe bet that The Beach Boys is the major deal in your life. If at this point you’ve devoted that much time to a subject and remain so exasperated by not getting the real story (which is actually out there) -- it’s not the band, or interviewer or book publisher’s fault.

Nobody owes anyone the truth, but if one wants it, one can get it.
Go get the truth, dude.

Ok, this is just ridiculous. It's not realistic to assume that one can just go meet the Brian Wilson. You act like it's as simple as just knocking on his front door or calling the house asking for an interview. These guys arent just going to stop everything and answer personal questions for every Joe Schmo who asks. I guess I'll just go ask Brian what the Second Movement to Surf's Up was, or what he thinks of my SMiLE Mixes, or have us compare acid trip experiences. Hey, it's my fault for not getting the truth, right?

Edit: Before the obligatory "well, that's what I did!" response, I just mean it's not nearly as simple as you make it out to be, it's not going to work for everyone, if you really wanted to help Sheriff or any of us I feel like more specific info on how you got connected would be nice. As it is, it just comes off as trying to shut us less connected fans up. Like rich people telling the poor to pull themselves up by their bootstraps sort of dismissive "motivation." Besides, even if people like me and Sheriff had the same access that some of you do, you really think some of our more personal questions would be answered? I can't imagine Brian would be willing to talk about his acid trips to anyone but his most closest friends if even them. I understand it's a sensitive, probably THE sensitive issue with him and I completely understand why. I wouldnt expect him to delve so deeply with someone he doesnt know like me.

I dont know... it just seems kinda naive to act like just anyone can go out there and get all their questions answered by anyone in the Beach Boys camp they want.

[mikeddonn]

This thread is an example of why this board is a fabulous forum.  Honest posts from some top notch and highly respected people.  I also think it was a valid question for the original poster to ask.  It was in a published piece of work and Jon posts here so he was asked the question.  Jon was good enough to respond.  Ray also rightly jumped in to express his annoyance at the term 'handlers' and rightly so IMHO.  I offered up my own story to demonstrate the fact that if Brian had handlers around him now then I would never have gotten within 20 metres of him, far less an autograph and a picture.  Again hopefully this addresses the 'handlers' aspect of Jon's chapter.  There is no comparison with the Landy era and Brian's current life.  Brian has his independence, drives to the Deli etc.  then some people think "why is he allowed out himself? We're worried about him?" 

In summary, I believe Brian doesn't always feel comfortable on stage but overall it's a positive experience and he does it for the right reasons.  He's a tough guy, a survivor who has good people round him now.  And he has slowed down over the last couple of years and touring now is a lot more comfortable in terms of travel etc than it used to be so I'm sure physically he is well rested between shows.

[Smilin Ed H]

Seems like a good point maybe to head for a beer… anyone coming? It's only 9am here in God's County but we can sit outside Booths supermarket with a bottle in a paper bag and chew the breeze. Last night I had a bottle of a novelty beer called Arse Liquor, actually an IPA which tasted suprisingly fresh and fine.

Anyone?

When in doubt, turn to drink. My libation will have to wait until this evening. Purely medicinal purposes, To lubricate a sore throat. Honest.

[Autotune]

I don't know now. I am no insider. And I don't have access to the BB/BW organization. Nor have I a chance of working for them in the near future. So I play from what I see/hear.

It seems to me that the current state of things shares a few traits with the Landy era, and with previous stages of Brian's life. Particularly in the realm of making him do things he initially doesn't want to, or fears, for the sake of health or therapy. You can always argue that no one forces Brian ultimately, and that he will do exactly what he wants to. I buy it: he thinks it is good for him and will eventually engage in an uncomfortable social situation, a tour, a meet and greet. He may even have a good time on occasion.


But really... How different is this from the "cajoled circus animal" David Leaf described in the first part of his tome, when reporting on the 1977 tour? Twenty years later, he would pep-talk Brian into going out there,  smile, and sing for the crowd. Was Brian's strength and will defeated by his entourage back in the late 70s? Or is it just a very similar case of Brian letting himself be forced to do something he instinctively rejects?

And what about the Landy era? What about all those social situations, including solo recitals, sets, recordings, interviews, that occurred during the Landy era? Leaving aside the dramatic effect of Landy's prescription drugs, and his power-mad intentions... Wasn't he constantly pep-talking Brian into social situations for the sake of therapy? How different was this particular aspect from the now (or, say, 1999). I understand that having loving support these days makes an enormous difference, that Brian may be a more stable and confident person thanks in no small part to this late-day stage exposure. But for us, observers, there lies an apparent paradox that is impossible to grasp or solve, just like it was for Leaf in 1977: he looks forced, he frowns, his live singing is extremelly irregular, he seemingly runs away from the stage when it's over, he doesn't interact with other people most of the time unless it's scripted. There is an artificial aura to all of this. It may be necessary. But it still raises questions.

[LeeDempsey]

Seems like a good point maybe to head for a beer… anyone coming? It's only 9am here in God's County but we can sit outside Booths supermarket with a bottle in a paper bag and chew the breeze. Last night I had a bottle of a novelty beer called Arse Liquor, actually an IPA which tasted suprisingly fresh and fine.

Anyone?

John, it's 8:20 AM here on the East Coast across the pond, and I am reminded of a scene from the TV show "Cheers" where Norm comes in, and takes his seat at the bar.  "Coach, gimme a beer," he says.  Coach, the bartender replies, "But Norm, it's only 8AM..."  Norm pauses for a second, and says, "Then put some cornflakes in it."  

Lee

[The Shift]

Tonight's been is gonna be this little number (with apologies for the brewer's language…)

[Smilin Ed H]

Seems like a good point maybe to head for a beer… anyone coming? It's only 9am here in God's County but we can sit outside Booths supermarket with a bottle in a paper bag and chew the breeze. Last night I had a bottle of a novelty beer called Arse Liquor, actually an IPA which tasted suprisingly fresh and fine.

Anyone?

John, it's 8:20 AM here on the East Coast across the pond, and I am reminded of a scene from the TV show "Cheers" where Norm comes in, and takes his seat at the bar.  "Coach, gimme a beer," he says.  Coach, the bartender replies, "But Norm, it's only 8AM..."  Norm pauses for a second, and says, "Then put some cornflakes in it."  

Lee

I prefer rice crispies with mine. Snap, crackle and burp!

[clack]

I don't know now. I am no insider. And I don't have access to the BB/BW organization. Nor have I a chance of working for them in the near future. So I play from what I see/hear.

It seems to me that the current state of things shares a few traits with the Landy era, and with previous stages of Brian's life. Particularly in the realm of making him do things he initially doesn't want to, or fears, for the sake of health or therapy. You can always argue that no one forces Brian ultimately, and that he will do exactly what he wants to. I buy it: he thinks it is good for him and will eventually engage in an uncomfortable social situation, a tour, a meet and greet. He may even have a good time on occasion.


But really... How different is this from the "cajoled circus animal" David Leaf described in the first part of his tome, when reporting on the 1977 tour? Twenty years later, he would pep-talk Brian into going out there,  smile, and sing for the crowd. Was Brian's strength and will defeated by his entourage back in the late 70s? Or is it just a very similar case of Brian letting himself be forced to do something he instinctively rejects?

And what about the Landy era? What about all those social situations, including solo recitals, sets, recordings, interviews, that occurred during the Landy era? Leaving aside the dramatic effect of Landy's prescription drugs, and his power-mad intentions... Wasn't he constantly pep-talking Brian into social situations for the sake of therapy? How different was this particular aspect from the now (or, say, 1999). I understand that having loving support these days makes an enormous difference, that Brian may be a more stable and confident person thanks in no small part to this late-day stage exposure. But for us, observers, there lies an apparent paradox that is impossible to grasp or solve, just like it was for Leaf in 1977: he looks forced, he frowns, his live singing is extremelly irregular, he seemingly runs away from the stage when it's over, he doesn't interact with other people most of the time unless it's scripted. There is an artificial aura to all of this. It may be necessary. But it still raises questions.

Many performers throw up before they go on stage. Doesn't mean that because their anxiety is so acute, that they want to cease performing.

I find nothing contradictory in Brian being anxious and uncomfortable about aspects of being a performing artist, and yet to still have the drive and ambition to want to succeed in his chosen profession.

[Wirestone]

You simply cannot separate what Landy did from who Landy was. That's the point. He was a supposed mental health pro, he prescribed drugs to BW, and he had him monitored 24/7.

None of that is remotely like the roles that Melinda or David or Jeff played over the years. None of them are Brian's doctors, they don't prescribe him drugs, and they don't monitor his day to day life. True fact for those who might not be aware: Brian hasn't had a conservator in ages. Melinda had the role for a couple of years after they married, but it was ultimately ended and BW made a complete legal person again.

This means he's free to drive around and do what he likes. He can go to restaurants or skydiving shows or mime performances or comic book conventions. He can record music on his own, for his own amusement. He can hatch plans for a BB reunion on his own -- as he did.

He is a pretty lazy guy, though, and he understands this about himself. So in certain situations, he lets other folks be in the position to kick his butt, to make him better. He gave the job to Darian when he recorded BWPS vocals, for instance. But no one would argue that Darian is like Gene.

Ultimately, what matters is the quality of the work. The times I've questioned Brian's touring have been when the shows were only average. Or when he seemed bored or disengaged. I think he deserves to be treated like an adult who makes choices, some good and some bad.

[Mikie]

I don't know now. I am no insider. And I don't have access to the BB/BW organization. Nor have I a chance of working for them in the near future. So I play from what I see/hear.

It seems to me that the current state of things shares a few traits with the Landy era, and with previous stages of Brian's life. Particularly in the realm of making him do things he initially doesn't want to, or fears, for the sake of health or therapy. You can always argue that no one forces Brian ultimately, and that he will do exactly what he wants to. I buy it: he thinks it is good for him and will eventually engage in an uncomfortable social situation, a tour, a meet and greet. He may even have a good time on occasion.


But really... How different is this from the "cajoled circus animal" David Leaf described in the first part of his tome, when reporting on the 1977 tour? Twenty years later, he would pep-talk Brian into going out there,  smile, and sing for the crowd. Was Brian's strength and will defeated by his entourage back in the late 70s? Or is it just a very similar case of Brian letting himself be forced to do something he instinctively rejects?

And what about the Landy era? What about all those social situations, including solo recitals, sets, recordings, interviews, that occurred during the Landy era? Leaving aside the dramatic effect of Landy's prescription drugs, and his power-mad intentions... Wasn't he constantly pep-talking Brian into social situations for the sake of therapy? How different was this particular aspect from the now (or, say, 1999). I understand that having loving support these days makes an enormous difference, that Brian may be a more stable and confident person thanks in no small part to this late-day stage exposure. But for us, observers, there lies an apparent paradox that is impossible to grasp or solve, just like it was for Leaf in 1977: he looks forced, he frowns, his live singing is extremelly irregular, he seemingly runs away from the stage when it's over, he doesn't interact with other people most of the time unless it's scripted. There is an artificial aura to all of this. It may be necessary. But it still raises questions.

Many performers throw up before they go on stage. Doesn't mean that because their anxiety is so acute, that they want to cease performing.

I find nothing contradictory in Brian being anxious and uncomfortable about aspects of being a performing artist, and yet to still have the drive and ambition to want to succeed in his chosen profession.

Plus, doesn't he still have stage fright sometimes? And his ear bothers him when it's loud? Plus the occasional hallucinations with various people talking in his head? Plus the recurring back issues? My God, the guy's forgiven!

[Cyncie]

In addition to what clack and Wirestone and Mikie said, I think it should be pointed out that the worst thing a person with stage fright can do is let it get the better of them. That ends careers. Maybe it takes a little toughness from the outside to keep Brian's stage fright at bay and allow him to do what he really wants to do… make music for an appreciative audience.

[Gerry]

I think comparing the Landy -era with what's happening now is misguided. Have you not read Ray Lawlor's posts? I also think that this animosity toward David Leaf is ignorant . If you were around in 1978, reading Leaf's book made every day seem like Christmas morning. It was the first book written about Brian and the Beach Boys and while it's not perfect I still love it and have great respect for David Leaf. Finally, 99.9% of us have no idea what goes on in Brian Wilson's life and what motivates him to do things. It's all just speculation.

[Steve Latshaw]

<<Many performers throw up before they go on stage. Doesn't mean that because their anxiety is so acute, that they want to cease performing.
I find nothing contradictory in Brian being anxious and uncomfortable about aspects of being a performing artist, and yet to still have the drive and ambition to want to succeed in his chosen profession. >>

Al Jolson used to do this before every opening on broadway... and sometimes every night.  And nobody loved being on the stage more than he did...

[Andrew G. Doe]

One thing about Melinda being Brian's conservator has always puzzled me. As I understood the terms of the role, a conservator was appointed to make impartial decisions, financial and otherwise, for someone the court deemed in some way incapable of making such decisions. That being so, and if my understanding is wrong someone please correct me, I find it difficult to grasp how someone's wife can be impartial. Ray ? Anyone ?

[Empire Of Love]

One thing about Melinda being Brian's conservator has always puzzled me. As I understood the terms of the role, a conservator was appointed to make impartial decisions, financial and otherwise, for someone the court deemed in some way incapable of making such decisions. That being so, and if my understanding is wrong someone please correct me, I find it difficult to grasp how someone's wife can be impartial. Ray ? Anyone ?

It seems the implication in your statement is that Melinda could not (and therefore did not) have Brian's best interests in mind?  You are usually a bit more subtil Andrew.  Regardless, here is a quick definition I found, which I'm sure you could have found via google, as you've referred so many others in the past:

"
n. a guardian and protector appointed by a judge to protect and manage the financial affairs and/or the person's daily life due to physical or mental limitations or old age. The conservator may be only of the "estate" (meaning financial affairs), but may be also of the "person," when he/she takes charge of overseeing the daily activities, such as health care or living arrangements of the conservatee. The process is that a relative or friend petitions the local superior court for appointment of a specific conservator, with written notice served on the potential conservatee. The object of this concern is interviewed by a court-appointed investigator to determine need, desire and understanding of the potential conservatee as well as the suitability of the proposed conservator. An open hearing is held before the appointment is made. The conservator is required to make regular accountings which must be approved by the court. The conservator may be removed by order of the court if no longer needed, upon the petition of the conservatee or relatives, or for failure to perform his/her duties. (See: conservatee, guardian)"

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/conservator

EoL

[Empire Of Love]

Lest anyone doubt the meaning of impartial:

not partial or biased; fair; just:

To say x could not be impartial towards y is to question whether or not x could be unbiased, fair, and just toward y.  X is Melinda and y is Brian.

Wow, just...wow.

[Ray Lawlor]

One thing about Melinda being Brian's conservator has always puzzled me. As I understood the terms of the role, a conservator was appointed to make impartial decisions, financial and otherwise, for someone the court deemed in some way incapable of making such decisions. That being so, and if my understanding is wrong someone please correct me, I find it difficult to grasp how someone's wife can be impartial. Ray ? Anyone ?

Melinda begged Carl Wilson to accept the role of Brian's conservator.  He refused. Had the probate court deemed Melinda Wilson unworthy she never would have been appointed Conservator

[Andrew G. Doe]

Thanks Ray. Seems my understanding of the requirements to be a conservator is lacking.

[Mendota Heights]

Thanks Ray. Seems my understanding of the requirements to be a conservator is lacking.

There is always Google.

Conservatorship in California (http://www.courts.ca.gov/selfhelp-conservatorship.htm)

There are a number of people who can file for a conservatorship:

The spouse or domestic partner of the proposed conservatee;
A relative of the proposed conservatee;
Any interested state or local entity or agency;
Any other interested person or friend of the proposed conservatee; and
The proposed conservatee, himself or herself.

In appointing a conservator, the court is guided by the best interests of the conservatee. If the proposed conservatee has nominated someone (and the proposed conservatee has the mental and physical ability to express his or her preference), the court will appoint that person as conservator unless it is NOT in the proposed conservatee’s best interests.

If the proposed conservatee has not or cannot nominate anyone, the law provides a list of preferences that the court generally follows when the court determines whether all these persons are qualified to serve as a conservator.

The order of preference is:
Spouse or domestic partner
Adult child
Parent
Sibling
Any other person the law says is okay
Public Guardian