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Author Topic: Carol Kaye on "Surfin' USA"...  (Read 29936 times)
Mikie
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« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2014, 04:32:18 PM »

I don't get why this is a big deal to keep fighting an old lady.
I'm sorry that more people don't think it's a big deal. No matter how old, or how talented, or how crazy, or how whatever Carol is, her claim about SUSA disrespects and diminishes the Beach Boys as musicians on their own iconic hit record that was recorded a year before she played on her first Beach Boys session. She is essentially saying that on Surfin USA, the record that gave the Beach Boys their first massive hit, Carl is not playing the lead guitar, that I'm sure at 16 he worked very hard on and was very proud of, and David is not playing the rhythm that at 14 he performed brilliantly. She's taking credit AWAY from the people who made the music, and you'd be surprised at how many people buy her claim. I've had so many people tell me that it's her and Billy Strange on the record, as if I needed to be educated about it. Where do you think these people get that erroneous point of view from?  From her constant reminder to people that it's not the Beach Boys on that record even though it is. I'm happy AGD will call her out on it, not much upside for him, he'll get told he's on a fool's errand going after an old lady, and that no one cares, and that he's disrespecting a legend etc... The ONLY upside is that he's fighting for what is right and what is true.

Then, as much as I like Carol (we communicated back and forth for a few days in the early 2000's and she signed a couple things for me) AGD needs to step up and "go for the jugular" this time. I don't really like that term, especially when we're talking about a senior citizen and a nice lady to many, but it really needs to be put to rest somehow. The SUSA session sheet needs to be produced, and maybe two or three people (including maybe Dave Marks) who were actually there at the session, to back it up. Since Brian and Mike don't remember for sure (or do they?) then those are the only three who were there who aren't deceased, including Nick Venet, Carl and Dennis, Murry, and maybe Frank Devito.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 04:40:35 PM by Mikie » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2014, 04:51:47 PM »

There is no doubt that Carol made her many contributions and we admire her for it.  No doubt she deserves respect but she can't claim prizes she didn't win.  The older I get the sharper my failing memory gets.  I wouldn't think that I'm the only one who makes mistakes about what happened way back when.

I'd prefer that Andrew set the record straight.  It's what he's always done and what he should continue to do...just to keep everybody credible.  I would think that Carol would ultimately want that too.

But you know us 'seniors'.  Sometime we can be such dicks.  [well, in this case maybe not Embarrassed ]
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« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2014, 07:18:26 PM »

She also claims to have played guitar on Jan & Dean's "Surf City" despite the AFM contract of the session not listing her presence.
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« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2014, 09:45:26 PM »

Act now and we'll harass a senior citizen for YEARS about confusing some recording sessions amidst thousands of others half a century ago at NO COST TO YOU!

I think it's not the misremembering that bugs Andrew but rather her not showing the decency to even consider she might actually misremember.


She's got the stamina to withstand his relentless assault of logic and ample documentation

Exactly! There you have it yourself. Smiley


her claim about SUSA disrespects and diminishes the Beach Boys as musicians on their own iconic hit record that was recorded a year before she played on her first Beach Boys session.

Exactly!


I don't get why this is a big deal to keep fighting an old lady.

Yeah, let's rather harrass an old man who won't stop bragging instead... Grin
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« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2014, 10:40:39 PM »

Historians! Now with extra gloating for those hard to reach problem stains.

Act now and we'll harass a senior citizen for YEARS about confusing some recording sessions amidst thousands of others half a century ago at NO COST TO YOU!

Hey! Mike should get her to play bass on Good Vibrations at the RAH. Then you guys can sort this out face to face. Bring seconds and weapons of choice.
LOL LOL LOL  This is about as important as what color socks we wear. Let it be for Christ's sake. The world ain't perfect and neither is the self- proclaimed monarch of this and other boards. Shrug
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« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2014, 02:44:25 AM »

Print the facts, publish the books. Correct the record! Sure. I can see your side and agree. You're clearly right. But the baiting and gloating gets a bit much and it sometimes seems like this is more personal than about recording contracts.


Show me where I'm baiting or gloating in this thread. I've just asked, politely, that she produce this contract she states she has which proves she plays on the BB recording of "Surfin' USA". She does that, and it IS for the BB session, and I will unreservedly apologise. She has everything to gain, and I a lot to lose. Exactly how is that baiting ?
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« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2014, 03:01:27 AM »

The truth does matter.

If it was just the memory of a session player who played hundreds of dates fifty years ago, I'd chalk it up to the ravages of time.  But since she contends there is an AFM contract, I would like to see it.

I see no meanness, no animosity, no harassment there.

She purports to have a document that changes our understanding of the history of the Beach Boys in the studio at a critical session early in their career.  Let's see it.
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« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2014, 10:22:51 AM »

Print the facts, publish the books. Correct the record! Sure. I can see your side and agree. You're clearly right. But the baiting and gloating gets a bit much and it sometimes seems like this is more personal than about recording contracts.



Agreed - establish the facts but do so politely and respectfully. It's AGD's reputation - not Carol's - that will be diminished by these belligerent 'Let's settle this' threads. 


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« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2014, 10:41:34 AM »

Belligerent ?

Where, exactly ?

Clearly, the problem certain people have here is with the poster, not the post.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 10:43:32 AM by The Legendary AGD » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2014, 10:47:55 AM »

Print the facts, publish the books. Correct the record! Sure. I can see your side and agree. You're clearly right. But the baiting and gloating gets a bit much and it sometimes seems like this is more personal than about recording contracts.

Agreed - establish the facts but do so politely and respectfully. It's AGD's reputation - not Carol's - that will be diminished by these belligerent 'Let's settle this' threads. 
Well, not Andrew's reputation, but maybe David's and Carl's, if they played on that recording. Several BB historians, including Stebbins, have worked hard to "un-spin" lore about who did what during those early years.  

And if David Marks was about 14 years old or even 15, at the time, it is a pretty amazing feat, and sort of the work of a prodigy.  As time goes on, I'm appreciating his early and important role in this band more.

JMHO
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« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2014, 10:52:46 AM »

Belligerent ?

Where, exactly ?

If I were Carol Kaye I would find the following quite challenging and confrontational. It's belligerant in the sense that you come across somewhat like a prize fighter goading his opponent into the ring:

So, to settle this once and for all, I call on her to post this contract on her site - or here - and prove her claim, and prove me wrong

It strikes me that historical inaccuracy seems to be one of your biggest bugbears. When people get their facts wrong here you're often quite withering in the way you call them out and I don't see your treatment of CK as any different. By all means strive for the truth and flag up inaccuracies where you see them but I don't see why you can't treat the subjects respectfully in the process. if I were an ageing principle player with shakey recollections of the BB golden years, you're the last person I'd be sharing those memories with, despite your credentials as primo BB scholar. Don't burn your bridges, AGD!
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 10:54:17 AM by buddhahat » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2014, 11:08:30 AM »

Print the facts, publish the books. Correct the record! Sure. I can see your side and agree. You're clearly right. But the baiting and gloating gets a bit much and it sometimes seems like this is more personal than about recording contracts.

Agreed - establish the facts but do so politely and respectfully. It's AGD's reputation - not Carol's - that will be diminished by these belligerent 'Let's settle this' threads. 
Well, not Andrew's reputation, but maybe David's and Carl's, if they played on that recording. Several BB historians, including Stebbins, have worked hard to "un-spin" lore about who did what during those early years.  

And if David Marks was about 14 years old or even 15, at the time, it is a pretty amazing feat, and sort of the work of a prodigy.  As time goes on, I'm appreciating his early and important role in this band more.

JMHO

I'm all for establishing the facts and giving the correct people their credit but my argument is that AGD's confrontational stance does more harm than good. CK is not going to read this thread and weigh in with her contract is she? If she has anything to do with this it will be to parade it as an example of AGD the troll and bully and other reliable sources may be inclined to give AGD a wide berth in the future. If he wants the truth from Carol a polite approach would be more effective imo. Aesop's Wind and the Sun and all that ...
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« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2014, 11:56:55 AM »

It would be one thing if Carol Kaye was just claiming "Surfing USA". But she is notorious for claiming to have played on records that she either didn't play on or work that ended up not being used ('Good Vibrations' being a good example. Unless my eyes deceive me, according to the GV session credits in the Smile box, none of her work ended up on the master recording.) Her early Motown claims are notorious and have been disproved by the master tapes with session chatter from the Funk Brothers preceding the released takes. She has also claimed such songs as Elvis's "Suspicious Minds" (Cut in Memphis with Mike Leech on bass), Del Shannon's "Runaway" (Bell Sound Studio in NYC w/Milt Hinton on bass) Dusty Springfield's "Son Of A Preacher Man" ( Memphis with Tommy Cogbill on bass - this one pisses me off the most because it's my favorite bass performance of all time.) "Last Train To Clarksville" by the Monkees (Larry Taylor on bass), the Doors' "Light My Fire" (Larry Knechtel on bass) and many more. She has been confronted with these discrepancies on more than one occasion and her sessionography may have been altered accordingly in the ensuing years (one would hope so). But at one time or another, she has claimed to have played on way too many songs that she wasn't on for her to be let off lightly.  Again, this isn't just about "Surfing USA."
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« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2014, 12:00:24 PM »

She's lying but do you think she can be convinced to stop lying?
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« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2014, 12:13:35 PM »

Probably not. But, really, she doesn't have to be. As Carol has said many times, all of her claims will be proven when the Russ Wapensky book comes out. Release date - The 12th of Never.
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« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2014, 12:18:40 PM »

Probably not.

In that case, I fail to see the point of taking this issue directly to her.

I likewise have no interest in debating conspiracy theorists.
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« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2014, 12:21:18 PM »

It would be one thing if Carol Kaye was just claiming "Surfing USA". But she is notorious for claiming to have played on records that she either didn't play on or work that ended up not being used ('Good Vibrations' being a good example. Unless my eyes deceive me, according to the GV session credits in the Smile box, none of her work ended up on the master recording.) Her early Motown claims are notorious and have been disproved by the master tapes with session chatter from the Funk Brothers preceding the released takes. She has also claimed such songs as Elvis's "Suspicious Minds" (Cut in Memphis with Mike Leech on bass), Del Shannon's "Runaway" (Bell Sound Studio in NYC w/Milt Hinton on bass) Dusty Springfield's "Son Of A Preacher Man" ( Memphis with Tommy Cogbill on bass - this one pisses me off the most because it's my favorite bass performance of all time.) "Last Train To Clarksville" by the Monkees (Larry Taylor on bass), the Doors' "Light My Fire" (Larry Knechtel on bass) and many more. She has been confronted with these discrepancies on more than one occasion and her sessionography may have been altered accordingly in the ensuing years (one would hope so). But at one time or another, she has claimed to have played on way too many songs that she wasn't on for her to be let off lightly.  Again, this isn't just about "Surfing USA."
Great post.
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« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2014, 12:23:11 PM »

Belligerent ?

Where, exactly ?

If I were Carol Kaye I would find the following quite challenging and confrontational. It's belligerant in the sense that you come across somewhat like a prize fighter goading his opponent into the ring:

So, to settle this once and for all, I call on her to post this contract on her site - or here - and prove her claim, and prove me wrong

It strikes me that historical inaccuracy seems to be one of your biggest bugbears.
Well...yes. When one is an historian that tends to be the case.
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« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2014, 12:24:20 PM »

Probably not. But, really, she doesn't have to be. As Carol has said many times, all of her claims will be proven when the Russ Wapensky book comes out. Release date - The 12th of Never.

I've been waiting for that book to come out for years. Carol even said she contributed info to Russ. I understand now that it's not going to happen.
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I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what she’s like, and I can feel how right she’d be for me. It’s weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what she’s picking up from me. I hope it’s good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2014, 12:29:09 PM »

It would be one thing if Carol Kaye was just claiming "Surfing USA". But she is notorious for claiming to have played on records that she either didn't play on or work that ended up not being used ('Good Vibrations' being a good example. Unless my eyes deceive me, according to the GV session credits in the Smile box, none of her work ended up on the master recording.) Her early Motown claims are notorious and have been disproved by the master tapes with session chatter from the Funk Brothers preceding the released takes. She has also claimed such songs as Elvis's "Suspicious Minds" (Cut in Memphis with Mike Leech on bass), Del Shannon's "Runaway" (Bell Sound Studio in NYC w/Milt Hinton on bass) Dusty Springfield's "Son Of A Preacher Man" ( Memphis with Tommy Cogbill on bass - this one pisses me off the most because it's my favorite bass performance of all time.) "Last Train To Clarksville" by the Monkees (Larry Taylor on bass), the Doors' "Light My Fire" (Larry Knechtel on bass) and many more. She has been confronted with these discrepancies on more than one occasion and her sessionography may have been altered accordingly in the ensuing years (one would hope so). But at one time or another, she has claimed to have played on way too many songs that she wasn't on for her to be let off lightly.  Again, this isn't just about "Surfing USA."

"I Was Made To Love Her" was another one she said she played on.  She's got a few Youtube clips in interviews and stuff playing the Good Vibrations bass part. Did she invent it? The way she plays it and describes it, you would think she invented it AND that she played the final take on the record.
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I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what she’s like, and I can feel how right she’d be for me. It’s weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what she’s picking up from me. I hope it’s good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2014, 12:42:26 PM »

I wouldn't go so far as to say she's LYING -- what would she have to gain? I will forever maintain that she's simply played on so many sessions over the decades that they're a blur to her and she may honestly believe she was on the ones she wasn't.

What does bug me, though, is that she is so stubborn about it....again, to the point that she has actually sent lawyers out to attack those who question her.
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« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2014, 12:48:50 PM »

Belligerent ?

Where, exactly ?

If I were Carol Kaye I would find the following quite challenging and confrontational. It's belligerant in the sense that you come across somewhat like a prize fighter goading his opponent into the ring:

So, to settle this once and for all, I call on her to post this contract on her site - or here - and prove her claim, and prove me wrong

It strikes me that historical inaccuracy seems to be one of your biggest bugbears.
Well...yes. When one is an historian that tends to be the case.

Does one also value context too?
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« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2014, 12:52:22 PM »

It is my, admittedly non-precise, opinion that because the majority of people out there still don't know that the band themselves played on many of their early recordings (the perception that the "wracking crow" played every session still dominates) it IS important to make sure that these credits get assigned rightly.   Assigning credit correctly is important.  It is.  
I don't think this has to be a case of impoliteness or beating up on an old lady (and I doubt this is what the Doester is doing, least I hope not), it is simply just a push for credit where credit is actually due (or Doe, if you prefer  LOL)  
I bet if someone else were claiming credit for playing bass/guitar on a session Ms. Kaye had actually played those instruments on - she herself would be crying foul too, so ya know....
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« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2014, 12:53:51 PM »

This seems more like a pissing Match than finding real historical context at this point. We know Carol's memory is faulty, just state the facts and move on.
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« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2014, 12:55:55 PM »

Glen Campbell said he played on 5 different sessions of Good Vibrations (that he knows of). It has been determined that it wasn't the case. Speculation is that he was "egged on" by the interviewer to say that. Obviously he wouldn't remember it today......
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 12:57:37 PM by Mikie » Logged

I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what she’s like, and I can feel how right she’d be for me. It’s weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what she’s picking up from me. I hope it’s good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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