BB song co-writes: who wrote what?

[CenturyDeprived]

I've heard bits and pieces over the years regarding which BB bandmate may have written a given part, be it lyrics, melody, structure, etc. But I'm sure there are lots of pieces of info like this which I'm unaware of. In a recent thread, Jon Stebbins mentioned Dennis' likely contributions to the vocal arrangement of the song "Friends"... curious if there are any other interesting stories like that for other songs that are documented as co-writes.

I know I've read that Mike had a significant role (beyond lyrics) in the songwriting of "Let The Wind Blow" and possibly "All I Wanna Do", maybe for melody and/or structure... how about other songs like Carl's contributions to "Our Sweet Love", etc?  

And I know I've read that Brian was known to have done uncredited vocal (and possibly structural?) arranging on "Little Bird" and "Forever". I've sometimes wondered if there was some similar uncredited work by Brian on "Never Learn Not to Love", as it has a very full and especially Brian-esque vocal arrangement (moreso than any Dennis-penned BB song). If this is true, I would also not be the slightest bit surprised if neither Brian nor anyone else in the know ever would corroborate such.

Curious if anyone has any cool nuggets of co-writing info (credited as such or not) regarding who wrote what part for other songs in the BB canon?

[Jukka]

Great topic!

[alf wiedersehen]

how about other songs like Carl's contributions to "Our Sweet Love"

This one shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Compare the finished product to the demo you can find on Get the Boot.

[linusoli]

how about other songs like Carl's contributions to "Our Sweet Love"

This one shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Compare the finished product to the demo you can find on Get the Boot.

So you're saying Carl wrote the entire vocal melody and lyric to the song? is the early mix really substantial evidence of such?

[Micha]

I've sometimes wondered if there was some similar uncredited work by Brian on "Never Learn Not to Love", as it has a very full and especially Brian-esque vocal arrangement (moreso than any Dennis-penned BB song).

I have no knowledge about that, but I doubt it because Brian had moved away from that sound. Personally, I love that records's sound, I wish Dennis had rerecorded "Surf's Up" at that session with a big arrangement like that!

[phirnis]

What about Good Timin'? Always wondered about Carl's role in the writing process.

Also, do we know if Landy was actually involved in co-writing some of the lyrics on Love You, as claimed in the "autobiography"?

[c-man]

What about Good Timin'? Always wondered about Carl's role in the writing process.

The liners of the Ten Years' Harmony comp credit this song as "Music - Brian Wilson / Lyrics - Carl Wilson and Brian Wilson".

[CenturyDeprived]

What about Good Timin'? Always wondered about Carl's role in the writing process.

Also, do we know if Landy was actually involved in co-writing some of the lyrics on Love You, as claimed in the "autobiography"?

That's a good question about Landy. Have all of his credits been officially removed on re-releases? Or is he still technically a co– writer on some songs that haven't been re-issued, like "In My Car"? It's weird because, despite his scumbaggerry, it's basically rewriting history to remove his name if he actually did contribute lyrics.

[Mr. Cohen]

I have no knowledge about that, but I doubt it because Brian had moved away from that sound.

Brian was really an enigma at that point, though. He might record the backing track to "America, I Know You", or he might record "Sail Plane Song".

[Debbie Keil-Leavitt]

I remember Tandyn Almer once telling me that he received a 1/12th royalty for his contribution to "Sail On Sailor" because he "wrote every 12th note."  I think it's pretty safe to say he was kidding, AND making a point.  When someone makes a suggestion in the studio, is it co-writing, or is it just a suggestion?  When someone adds a few words here or there, what percentage have they contributed to the song?  I have some pretty strong opinions about these things, and I suspect so does everyone else.  That's when the attorneys get involved.

I really enjoyed reading Paul McCartney's biography - particularly the section about what he wrote and what John wrote in many of the songs.  They had distinctive styles that blended nicely and both wrote music and lyrics, so it was a lot easier to have all that stuff say Lennon/McCartney, even when some were obviously nearly all one composer or the other...example, Yoko Ono has as much to say about what happens to the publishing of "Yesterday" as does McCartney as I understand it, and vice-versa for the songs on which John did nearly all of the writing.  Now we're in legal territory, right?

Are lyrics as important as the music?  From my point of view, if you're Bob Dylan, yes...if you're Brian Wilson, no.   I think about compositions like "Our Prayer" and "Passing By," and they stand on their own.  AND, I am the silly girl who sat on the floor for a couple of days untangling and splicing together a reel of  wadded up recording tape (it had fallen off a reel when it was being switched) because it was of Brian's demo singing "Passing By" with lyrics that, as I understood it from Tandyn Almer, came after the wordless version had already been released and that Brian wanted to re-do it with words.  I sat there for endless hours on that tedious task just to hear it and then gave it back to Tandyn.  I liked the lyrics I heard, but what made it worth my while was hearing Brian sing it more than hearing any lyrics. 

Then there's the problem of whether we are arguing about marketability or artistic viability, and if we can separate the two.  If the lyrics rise to the artistic level of the music - when the writer is a poet like Dylan or Van Dyke Parks - I consider them highly important, personally.  Here's where I'll get myself into a lot of trouble with a lot of you, but from my point of view, if "Good Vibrations" had any set of lyrics, I can't imagine loving it any less.  Then let's consider "Surf's Up" - I would still be as lost in the beauty, whatever the lyrics.  What the poetry of the lyrics gave me was - well, a really, really great poem.  Another wonderful work of art dancing across the notes that I could study for years to come.  Did the lyrics make it more marketable?  I'd think to those who love poetry as much or more than music, probably; but to those who don't speak a word of English who still bought it?  No...and that's apparently a good number of people.

[drbeachboy]

And that's the thing about the Beach Boys, they didn't need Dylan lyrics. For me it is the vocalizing and music. The words were something to sing, but oooh's and ahhh's would have worked just as well.

[Mr. Cohen]

It's all about the music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kYX8IppcbI

[CenturyDeprived]

Are lyrics as important as the music?  From my point of view, if you're Bob Dylan, yes...if you're Brian Wilson, no.   I think about compositions like "Our Prayer" and "Passing By," and they stand on their own.  AND, I am the silly girl who sat on the floor for a couple of days untangling and splicing together a reel of  wadded up recording tape (it had fallen off a reel when it was being switched) because it was of Brian's demo singing "Passing By" with lyrics that, as I understood it from Tandyn Almer, came after the wordless version had already been released and that Brian wanted to re-do it with words.  I sat there for endless hours on that tedious task just to hear it and then gave it back to Tandyn.  I liked the lyrics I heard, but what made it worth my while was hearing Brian sing it more than hearing any lyrics. 
 

Thanks so much for sharing stories like these, Debbie. Do you recall anything about the lyrics-version of "Passing By"? Was it the same Friends version of the song just with lyrics sung over it? Very surprised this hasn't been released yet, but one would think it's being held for some future reissue or a mythical Friends box set.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Does it even still exist?

[Dancing Bear]

My CDs are stashed away but I think there are some lines of the "Passing By" lyrics in the Friends/20/20 twofer booklet. "As I saw you walking down the street..."

[alf wiedersehen]

While walking down the avenue,
I stopped to have a look at you,
And then I saw,
You're just passing by

[37!ws]

Here's how I see it:

"Vegetables" is credited to Brian and Van Dyke.

"Mama Says" is credited to Brian and Mike.

The only difference, in terms of melodic and lyrical content, between the "Sleep a lot..." part of "Vegetables" and the entirety of "Mama Says" is the word "Poof" at the end.

Ergo, Mike's contribution to "Mama Says": the word "poof".

[CenturyDeprived]

Here's how I see it:

"Vegetables" is credited to Brian and Van Dyke.

"Mama Says" is credited to Brian and Mike.

The only difference, in terms of melodic and lyrical content, between the "Sleep a lot..." part of "Vegetables" and the entirety of "Mama Says" is the word "Poof" at the end.

Ergo, Mike's contribution to "Mama Says": the word "poof".

 

In all fairness, maybe Mike helped come up with one of the sonic variations of the vocal riff in "Mama Says"? It's a head scratcher though. 

[Niko]

Does it even still exist?

The Friends rewrites still exist and are in the vaults, but Passing By is not currently in the possession of someone connected to the BBs world.

[Debbie Keil-Leavitt]

While walking down the avenue,
I stopped to have a look at you,
And then I saw,
You're just passing by

That's pretty much what I remember from the first verse.  I have even shared them in the past on one of Mike Grant's radio show chat pages.  Where did you get them Bubbly Waves?

The bridge was something like this..."long(?) nights, quiet(?) nights, nights of living dreams, so close you were to being all I ever needed..."  The question marked words elude me - I'm basically remember syllables and vague sounds, so they're probably wrong...Brian sounded amazing on the scratch vocal though.  It was good enough to keep for the lead.

I only heard it a few times before the tape reel went back to Tandyn and I never saw it again.  Where it went from there, I couldn't tell you, but it was definitely an intact recording when I was done with it.  Maybe Tandyn's estate has it?

[Debbie Keil-Leavitt]

While walking down the avenue,
I stopped to have a look at you,
And then I saw,
You're just passing by

That's pretty much what I remember from the first verse.  I have even shared them in the past on one of Mike Grant's radio show chat pages.  Where did you get them Bubbly Waves?

The bridge was something like this..."long(?) nights, quiet(?) nights, nights of living dreams, so close you were to being all I ever needed..."  The question marked words elude me - I'm basically remember syllables and vague sounds, so they're probably wrong...Brian sounded amazing on the scratch vocal though.  It was good enough to keep for the lead.

I only heard it a few times before the tape reel went back to Tandyn and I never saw it again.  Where it went from there, I couldn't tell you, but it was definitely an intact recording when I was done with it.  Maybe Tandyn's estate has it?

I just thought of another person who might have it.  There was a man down the street from Tandyn, Billy Elder, who had a recording studio in his home with Brian's old 4-track recorder.  Brian used to record there so if Tandyn or the people around the BBs didn't end up with it, maybe Billy did?  You researcher/historian types would be much better at tracking it down than me, I'm afraid...those are the only clues I have.

[Mr. Cohen]

Maybe Mike's original contribution to "Mama Says" was the "boy" bass vocal, but it was uncredited later? It would be like Mike to add a boy/girl element to it.

[CenturyDeprived]

Maybe Mike's original contribution to "Mama Says" was the "boy" bass vocal, but it was uncredited later? It would be like Mike to add a boy/girl element to it.

Well unless I miscounted, there are 16 words in the song that are not "boy" or "poof", so the Lovester would have written 2 out of 18 words in the song.  No small potatoes. 

[Micha]

Don't forget that the lines "Eat a lot" and "Sleep a lot" are switched!

[Cam Mott]

Here's how I see it:

"Vegetables" is credited to Brian and Van Dyke.

"Mama Says" is credited to Brian and Mike.

The only difference, in terms of melodic and lyrical content, between the "Sleep a lot..." part of "Vegetables" and the entirety of "Mama Says" is the word "Poof" at the end.

Ergo, Mike's contribution to "Mama Says": the word "poof".

I've heard that Mike was occasionally left off of song credits too.