Does the on stage talent level of the BB's piss you off?

[Rocker]

Not totally on topic, but did you ever wonder why the live band got so boring after Brian left in '64, but before they were really smoking ? From '65-'68 they really weren't goo to say the least...

[the captain]

Also, I have noticed that the best musicians in the group have been the backing musicians. Mike Meros, Daryl Dragon, Carly Munoz, and even Billy Hinsche on keyboards. Blondie Chaplin, Jeff Foskett, and even Ed Carter on guitar. Listen to Ed's guitar work on Live In Knebworth. He rocks out like Carl rarely did. And don't forget David Marks!

It's true that they hired god/better players to back them live. I agree, and think many people do. I talked about this the other day--they were competent-to-good players (different members to different levels on different instruments), but they had the good sense to supplement as necessary or helpful. I don't think that's such a sin. And I.  guess they didn't either, or they'd have all sat home and sent a cover show out there. They were good enough to be a kick-ass rock band. Sometimes they made a mistake. Big deal.

(And yes, I read your "Carl did, Jeff did, etc. thing. But while OF COURSE they wanted things played properly, I'd bet each and every one of them wanted things played in the spirit of RnR more than note-perfect. After all, it isn't like they couldn't have gotten a band to do just that, if it's what they wanted most.)

[Sheriff John Stone]

Just to address a couple of your points, Luther...

Sometimes, when I would see The Beach Boys live, which was post-1977, I used to think that the best musicians on the stage WEREN'T EVEN The Beach Boys, but the supporting musicians. When Dennis would step away from the drums to go to the piano, and Bobby Figueroa would sit in on drums, it was like "Wow, what a difference!" And I would marvel at some of the piano fills of Mike Meros and Billy Hinsche, and wish that just once, Brian or Bruce would cut loose with something like that. Same thing with Blondie Chaplin and Ed Carter (in the early 80's). I would see/hear them do things on the guitar that Carl and Al (obviously, he was rhythm guitar) wouldn't even attempt. Why is that?

I know this is really gonna get me in trouble, but the same can be said about the vocals also, especially post-1976. Do you know who was doing a lot of the falsetto work in the late 70's/early 80's? Bobby Figueroa. When you listen to a Beach Boys' live bootleg (not the post concert/studio sweetened Live In Knebworth), it sounds pretty ragged. Also, when you attend a Brian Wilson solo concert, do you ever think that Brian is probably the worst (I say that sympathetically, I don't know what other word to use) singer on the stage.

Finally, your point about not wanting things note perfect is well taken. I suppose there is a happy medium. I think Carl was striving for a liitle more "note perfectness" when he left the group in protest in 1981.

 

[Jeff Mason]

Not totally on topic, but did you ever wonder why the live band got so boring after Brian left in '64, but before they were really smoking ? From '65-'68 they really weren't goo to say the least...

There is a simple answer for that....

Bruce Johnston doesn't have a rock and roll bone in his body.

Brian on bass absoultely propelled that band live.

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

And yet, I thought Bruce was  a Rock And Roll Survivor?

Was his Rip Chords and Bruce And Terry stuff rock and roll?

[Jon Stebbins]

One point that somebody made up the thread needs addressing...that the Beach Boys "sidemen" or "backing musicians" were better players than the Beach Boys themselves...DUHHH!!! Who do you think hired those guys? Of course they hired better musicians than themselves...they handpicked these people. Bobby Figueroa told me about going to an audtion for the BB's in '74 and there were tons of drummers auditioning, he thought he had no chance and was headed back to his car...guess who came out to the parking lot and told him he had a job? Dennis.

Another point...The Beach Boys of 1964, with Brian on bass were incredibly exciting live . But the reason they became "less electric" in the following couple of years wasn't because Brian left...there was a shift in the live presentation when the screaming girls began to lessen. Brian still rehearsed the live band, even when he wasn't touring in the pre '68 years...and it was brian who asked that they emphasize vocals...and it was Brian who told them to dial back the loud drums and guitars...and present something more compact and less frenetic. That was his call. The mellow, mellow sound you hear on Lei'd in Hawaii is something Brian pointed the band to. Personally I prefer the BB's punk rock sound of '63/64. Carl insisted on the change back to something more dynamic in '68 with horns and a big drum sound again. But the purest rock and roll BB's in all their Denny-bashing, Fender/Rickenbacker chopping glory is the 1964 T.A.M.I. show. To me that's the "pure" BB's live peak...no sidemen needed.

[the captain]

Just to address a couple of your points, Luther...

Sometimes, when I would see The Beach Boys live, which was post-1977, I used to think that the best musicians on the stage WEREN'T EVEN The Beach Boys, but the supporting musicians. When Dennis would step away from the drums to go to the piano, and Bobby Figueroa would sit in on drums, it was like "Wow, what a difference!" And I would marvel at some of the piano fills of Mike Meros and Billy Hinsche, and wish that just once, Brian or Bruce would cut loose with something like that. Same thing with Blondie Chaplin and Ed Carter (in the early 80's). I would see/hear them do things on the guitar that Carl and Al (obviously, he was rhythm guitar) wouldn't even attempt. Why is that?

I know this is really gonna get me in trouble, but the same can be said about the vocals also, especially post-1976. Do you know who was doing a lot of the falsetto work in the late 70's/early 80's? Bobby Figueroa. When you listen to a Beach Boys' live bootleg (not the post concert/studio sweetened Live In Knebworth), it sounds pretty ragged. Also, when you attend a Brian Wilson solo concert, do you ever think that Brian is probably the worst (I say that sympathetically, I don't know what other word to use) singer on the stage.

Finally, your point about not wanting things note perfect is well taken. I suppose there is a happy medium. I think Carl was striving for a liitle more "note perfectness" when he left the group in protest in 1981.

I don't think this really goes against anything I said. I agreed that the hired musicians were great and technically better than the BBs. And I doubt anyone could dispute that Brian is the worst singer in his own band these days.

[Mark H.]

Being the worst singer in Brian's band isn't exactly an insult!

[SG7]

Does it piss me off? Sometimes. Then you have to ask yourself could they have made it sound exactly like the record? I doubt it.

[jazzfascist]

I agree that they weren't much of a live band, but as has been mentioned they were more of a band that relied on the songs, not so much instrumental prowess, but imagine what they could have added to the music if they had been of Stevie Ray Vaugh caliber. I always wondered how they would have sounded if Brian had relied on them, rather than using studio musicians. Yesterday I saw Godards "One Plus One" where you see Stones develop "Sympathy For The Devil" in the studio, even though it was mostly Mick and Keith calling the shots, the rest was also involved. I wonder if that had also been the BB's modus operandum, would they have developed more as musicians. As it was, they were more Brians messengers and that might have stifled them in their growth, as opposed to a situation where the whole group  developed the tracks together, with little interference from studio musicians.

Søren

[nosticker]

To answer the initial question: I don't know about "piss me off", but sure, some of the BB's shows were better than others.  This is true of any musician or group.  No explanation necessary; it's called being human, and everyone has an off night.

That having been said, I am REALLY sick of people taking cheap shots at Dennis' drumming because he wasn't "a drummer's drummer".  Unlike people coming up today, there were not dozens of rock drummers to emulate as Dennis began.  Sure, there was Buddy, Gene, Max, Louie Bellson, Joe Morello, etc., but those were jazz guys.  Maybe DJ Fontana with Elvis, or Jerry Allison with the Crickets?  But my point is that Dennis was largely finding his own way, with no lessons to my knowledge.  Just that is impressive, IMHO.

Personally, I've been playing drums for over 30 years, and it's still a matter of opinion.  What a non-musician likes is no more valid than what a musician likes.  I love Dennis' drumming.  Lots of what I've heard live is exciting as all hell, and that is what the BB's needed, not Steve Gadd(though I'm sure he would do a good job, as well).

Ultimately, to complain about a band's lack of musical instrument chops when they sang like no one else on the planet is simply missing the point.



Dan

[windchimes]

Well Mr. Stebbins......
Swapping resumes wasnt exactly what I had in mind. Just wanted to give you guys a heads up so you wont just throw this post aside as stupid babble.

Has anybody else noticed that they had a hard time ending songs? Stopping together, you would think, would be something to practice. I guess what I am trying to say is that they are VERY inconsistent. Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt collect liver shows if I didnt love them. But sometimes it gets to me when you here Carl forget the words to Wild Honey, Dennis going long after a cut off, (Shindig "Papa Ooh Mow Mow" or "HAwaii" Lost concert), or maybe the almost never tight harmonies. Yeah, when they sand the four freshman stuff, it sounded great. But why did they have such a problem switching that over into their own music? I could talk about everything that I think is bad about all of the concerts I have seen. I just wanted to see if anybody else noticed. Does anybody know what their practice habits were? Maybe there lies the problem.

[windchimes]

The way Dennis played was fascinating.

Count me in as another highly-trained conservatory-educated classical musician who loves the Beach Boys musicianship.

Uh.............. fascinating?

Steve Gadd......Neil Peart......... now those guys are fascinating. That is talent.

Plus, Dennis does the same damn fills for every song. Dont throw me that "its simple" nonsense. Fascinating? Why dont you come listen to my little brother play. You might like that. Hes got da passion.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Steve Gadd......Neil Peart......... now those guys are fascinating.

I agree.  And since I also find Dennis' playing fascinating, it gives me more pleasure than I might have had if I didn't.  So I'm filled with pleasure and fascination, and you're pissed off.  So there it is.

[the captain]

Steve Gadd......Neil Peart......... now those guys are fascinating. That is talent.

The funny thing (to me) is that I don't find either of those two remotely fascinating. Not at all.

So there you have it.

[windchimes]

Steve Gadd......Neil Peart......... now those guys are fascinating.

I agree.  And since I also find Dennis' playing fascinating, it gives me more pleasure than I might have had if I didn't.  So I'm filled with pleasure and fascination, and you're pissed off.  So there it is.

May I ask what fascinates you about his drumming?

[windchimes]

Steve Gadd......Neil Peart......... now those guys are fascinating. That is talent.

The funny thing (to me) is that I don't find either of those two remotely fascinating. Not at all.

So there you have it.

Do I smell irrelevance?

[the captain]

Steve Gadd......Neil Peart......... now those guys are fascinating. That is talent.

The funny thing (to me) is that I don't find either of those two remotely fascinating. Not at all.

So there you have it.

Do I smell irrelevance?

I don't know what you smell. Why don't you tell me? But if you're saying my taste and opinion is irrelevant and yours somehow isn't, well...ok. I guess it is.

Sincerely,
Mr. Irrelevant.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

May I ask what fascinates you about his drumming?

Just about everything.  I mentioned his unorthodox stick grips, I think it must be interesting how he came to his technique.  He also has the most distinct and recognizable right foot I've ever heard.  I can tell it's Dennis' kick drum easier than I coould pick out any other drummer's kick.

[Old Rake]

I totally agree with Josh -- I find his drumming very interesting. I like the way he fills -- solid and loud and on-point. I find those other drummers you mentioned equally lifeless -- I like Rush fine but the drumming almost never enters into it. Slick, adept but almost never ear-grabbing at all. Irrelevent? Dude, Rush is hardly the hippest of the hottest.

[I. Spaceman]

The way Dennis played was fascinating.

Count me in as another highly-trained conservatory-educated classical musician who loves the Beach Boys musicianship.

 
Steve Gadd......Neil Peart......... now those guys are fascinating. That is talent.

 

UGHHH! Everything I hate, everything that isn't rock and roll.

[Aegir]

I don't remember which song it is, but one of the songs on Surfin' Safari is just Dennis smashing the crash and/or ride cymbal(s) the entire song. Primitive, simple, unlearned? Yes.

But he kept a steady beat.

[Jon Stebbins]

May I ask what fascinates you about his drumming?

Just about everything.  I mentioned his unorthodox stick grips, I think it must be interesting how he came to his technique.  He also has the most distinct and recognizable right foot I've ever heard.  I can tell it's Dennis' kick drum easier than I coould pick out any other drummer's kick.

Yeah that and the wicked power in his right hand. Bobby Figueroa described it to me as..."like a canon going off"...no need to mic his snare. Lots of anecdotes about Dennis ripping his stick through a snare skin with a single strike. Hal has a great story about Dennis borrowing one of his kits for a session, and how Hal's drum tech was mortified because Dennis had pummled it into a complete wreck in only an hour or two.  I'm sorry, but its great fun to watch a guy go animal on a kit...isn't that why we liked keith Moon so much? Go up to the Youtube thread and watch how much fun Dennis has in the I Get Around T.A.M.I. show sequence. Drummers weren't shattering sticks and tossing the shards over their shoulder in 1964...but Dennis did. He was punk rock long before it exisited. Rock and roll is supposed to be joyous, dangerous, passionate...Dennis had all of that. He was one of the first rock drummers to bring the focus onto the drummer...and it sure wasn't because he was boring to watch. Even Mike and Brian are constantly turning around and watching him, and they're usually grinning while they're doing it. The BB's in 1964 with Dennis on drums are a happening rock and roll party. If you can't dig that...then there's no explaining it to you.

[I. Spaceman]

Another perfect post. Right on, Mr. Stebbins.

[al]

As a drummer of no little brutality myself I have a LOT of time for Dennis. Listen to the Live In London version of Do It Again - that is SO rocking. Ricky was better technically but Dennis was no mean drummer. Look at the Knebworth DVD as well. Steve Gadd may be a great drummer but he was never in a great band. He just played FOR great people.