Does the on stage talent level of the BB's piss you off?

[windchimes]

I have been a Beach Boy fan my whole life. I just recently stumbled upon a video of Stevie Ray Vaughn playing "Pride and Joy" on MTV Unplugged. While watching the video, I was totally amazed at the talent of this man. His confidence on stage of his playing and vocals is just great.

Now, I have been collecting Beach Boy concerts for a while now. I have always looked at these recordings as gems. Being a huge beach boy fan, I think anything they say into the mic is great. However, after watching this amazing video and comparing to the talent of our boys, I often wonder how they sold any seats at their concerts at all. Listening to Mike Love make fun of the band and their songs, and hearing him totally fold all over himself when trying to sing easy bass lines pisses me off. Dennis was a horrible drummer. Al was a mediocre guitar player, and bruce....well..................that might be a tad too easy. It is sad when I have to hope for "good spots" where they all do their job.

Dont get me wrong, I will still be the biggest beach boy fan ever. I just wish they would have either stopped touring, (like the Beatles), or at least hire some better back up guys.


windchimes

[Jeff Mason]

I hope you are talking about 80's and 90's BB -- in the 70s they were simply amazing live.

[I. Spaceman]

Dennis was a horrible drummer. Al was a mediocre guitar player, and bruce....well...........

Wrong, try again.

[Aegir]

I don't understand the logic behind this at all.. I've never thought the Beach Boys were bad at their instruments. I've listened to lots of cover versions of Surfin' USA, and none of them have Dennis's amazing drumbeat. Simple is not necessarily bad.

And Bruce hardly plays the keyboard in concert, he's like Brian but more obvious. When I saw him the other day, he was away from his keyboard 70% of the time, moving to the side of the stage inciting the audience to clap and such. For a song or two he even played tambourine, nowhere near a microphone!

[Reverend Joshua Sloane]

Have you heard "Let The Wind Blow" from the 73' concert official release album? It's stunning.

I don't really care for live music to tell the truth. I've been to only a hand full of concerts and they bored me to death. I'm much more comfortable slipping into my own world with an album rather than a loud volume concert with a bunch of sweaty people. So as long as the playing on the album meets the requirments for the songs I'm happy.

Wild Honey is an album full (or rather un-full) of drums. You'll hear a snare every so often, and it is most likely played with the ability of a three year old. Though it's not some technically proficient drummer, it suits the songs and pleases me.

[Aegir]

The bongos/congas in Wild Honey really fit/mold the atmosphere of the album.

[Jon Stebbins]

I have been a Beach Boy fan my whole life. I just recently stumbled upon a video of Stevie Ray Vaughn playing "Pride and Joy" on MTV Unplugged. While watching the video, I was totally amazed at the talent of this man. His confidence on stage of his playing and vocals is just great.

Now, I have been collecting Beach Boy concerts for a while now. I have always looked at these recordings as gems. Being a huge beach boy fan, I think anything they say into the mic is great. However, after watching this amazing video and comparing to the talent of our boys, I often wonder how they sold any seats at their concerts at all. Listening to Mike Love make fun of the band and their songs, and hearing him totally fold all over himself when trying to sing easy bass lines pisses me off. Dennis was a horrible drummer. Al was a mediocre guitar player, and bruce....well..................that might be a tad too easy. It is sad when I have to hope for "good spots" where they all do their job.

Dont get me wrong, I will still be the biggest beach boy fan ever. I just wish they would have either stopped touring, (like the Beatles), or at least hire some better back up guys.


windchimes

Just the fact that you are comparing the BB's...whose core group hit the top in 1963/1964...to Stevie Ray Vaughan...an '80's musician...is completely wacky and lacking context. Dennis was NOT a horrible drummer...Al was fine as a guitarist...all the original BB's were competent musicians. If you're looking for hot guitar solos and wicked drum fills...maybe you are better suited to be a Rush fan...or something...but the BB's were fine at what they did. When they went minimal in the '66 to '67 with the barely there drums and guitars its because that's what Brian reheased them to do...he wanted the emphasis on the vocals...and he told Dennis and Carl to keep it mellow. But in '63 -'65 and again '68 to '76 they WERE one of the best live acts going. You won't get any excuses from me for anything after that.

[windchimes]

I have been a Beach Boy fan my whole life. I just recently stumbled upon a video of Stevie Ray Vaughn playing "Pride and Joy" on MTV Unplugged. While watching the video, I was totally amazed at the talent of this man. His confidence on stage of his playing and vocals is just great.

Now, I have been collecting Beach Boy concerts for a while now. I have always looked at these recordings as gems. Being a huge beach boy fan, I think anything they say into the mic is great. However, after watching this amazing video and comparing to the talent of our boys, I often wonder how they sold any seats at their concerts at all. Listening to Mike Love make fun of the band and their songs, and hearing him totally fold all over himself when trying to sing easy bass lines pisses me off. Dennis was a horrible drummer. Al was a mediocre guitar player, and bruce....well..................that might be a tad too easy. It is sad when I have to hope for "good spots" where they all do their job.

Dont get me wrong, I will still be the biggest beach boy fan ever. I just wish they would have either stopped touring, (like the Beatles), or at least hire some better back up guys.


windchimes

Just the fact that you are comparing the BB's...whose core group hit the top in 1963/1964...to Stevie Ray Vaughan...an '80's musician...is completely wacky and lacking context. Dennis was NOT a horrible drummer...Al was fine as a guitarist...all the original BB's were competent musicians. If you're looking for hot guitar solos and wicked drum fills...maybe you are better suited to be a Rush fan...or something...but the BB's were fine at what they did. When they went minimal in the '66 to '67 with the barely there drums and guitars its because that's what Brian reheased them to do...he wanted the emphasis on the vocals...and he told Dennis and Carl to keep it mellow. But in '63 -'65 and again '68 to '76 they WERE one of the best live acts going. You won't get any excuses from me for anything after that.

Ok first off, I am not just blabbing on like a crazy person. I have been a musician my whole life. I am a music major at the University of Nebraska. Playing snare on the drumline and playing set for many bands gives me at least a little competence in this area.
PLEASE...do not think that this is just some un-educated babble.

I will stand by my remarks. Dennis was a horrible drummer. If you listen to any given concert, he pushes the tempo. I understand that simple isnt alwways bad, but in his case it is.  Notice he plays virtually the same simple grooves working back and forth from shuffle to rock. If you ask me, any joe off the street can play a dennis beat.

Al and Bruce as guitar players also makes me wish they would have had other members in support. Notice.....in my comments I mentioned the years I was talking about. I realize that they were a great live act in the 70's....Why? Better backing band.

Lacking context??? How so?  They are both payed to play............Plus, some of the greatest guitar players came out of the 60's.....so I dont think time frame is an issue here.

[windchimes]

Also, you said that vocals were the emphasis of the 66-67 concerts (which is pretty much what I am talking about)
Well, if you've listened to any of those concerts, the vocals arent exactly at a public performance level. Some songs I wonder if they even practiced....(numerous false starts..............alternated endings nobody was told about) I doubt Brian had anything to do with that. Catch my drift?

[windchimes]

One last thing.......


Fine, dont use SRV as a comparison. How about the Hollies?

[I. Spaceman]

I will stand by my remarks. Dennis was a horrible drummer. If you listen to any given concert, he pushes the tempo. I understand that simple isnt alwways bad, but in his case it is.  Notice he plays virtually the same simple grooves working back and forth from shuffle to rock. If you ask me, any joe off the street can play a dennis beat.

Many great rock drummers push the tempo, that's the nature of live performance. Keith Moon? John Bonham? Ringo? They all did. Rock is about playing what is necessary for the tune. BBs live 63-65 required Ramonesy speed, power-pop to the highest power. Dennis played a throbbing surf beat perfectly, that's what Brian wrote the earliest material for. His drumming on the TAMI show footage is some of the most intense primal pounding I have ever seen. It's ROCK AND ROLL, baby! Not that bullshit wank-off professional "virtuosity" that strangled and killed REAL rock and roll. I't all about the passion, not the chops. f*** chops. Gimme Denny yellin' his head off, hair flyin', playin' Dance Dance Dance over Billy fuckin' Cobham any day.

[I. Spaceman]

One last thing.......


Fine, dont use SRV as a comparison. How about the Hollies?

Bobby Elliott sped up the tempos too. Seen the NME Pollwinners 64 footage?

[Reverend Joshua Sloane]

I will stand by my remarks. Dennis was a horrible drummer. If you listen to any given concert, he pushes the tempo. I understand that simple isnt alwways bad, but in his case it is.  Notice he plays virtually the same simple grooves working back and forth from shuffle to rock. If you ask me, any joe off the street can play a dennis beat.

Many great rock drummers push the tempo, that's the nature of live performance. Keith Moon? John Bonham? Ringo? They all did. Rock is about playing what is necessary for the tune. BBs live 63-65 required Ramonesy speed, power-pop to the highest power. Dennis played a throbbing surf beat perfectly, that's what Brian wrote the earliest material for. His drumming on the TAMI show footage is some of the most intense primal pounding I have ever seen. It's ROCK AND ROLL, baby! Not that bullmerda wank-off professional "virtuosity" that strangled and killed REAL rock and roll. I't all about the passion, not the chops. foda chops. Gimme Denny yellin' his head off, hair flyin', playin' Dance Dance Dance over Billy fodain' Cobham any day.

Every member of the Beach Boys was AMAZING at that show. The verses to 'When I Grow Up' are so amazing on that one from Dennis' simplistic drumming. If the Beach Boys' records required technique rather than what they had then Brian would've surely made Hal Blaine play it. 'Wouldn't It Be Nice' for the majority of the song has a very simple drum beat, yet it's one of the greatest songs to tap along to with your hand ever.

[Mark H.]

As a comparison listen to The Beatles in Japan (1966).  Doesn't exactly smoke does it.  Now does that piss you off?

Obviously the BBs were good enough live to sell out shows for 40+ years.  Therefore....they are either better than you think, or their fans are suckers.

I've seen the band a dozen times or more over approximately 30 years...they aren't slouches.  IMO...Dennis was a much better drummer than he ever got credit for.

[Emdeeh]

To answer the original question, NO!! Not even the tiniest bit. I loved it all, from the rawness of the '60s band, through the Carl-led rock band of the '70s and early '80s, and even the so-called "live jukebox" mid-'80s through '97 (but not the cheerleaders, who always managed to block my view of the very men I paid my hard-earned money to see).

Perfection is for the studio, imho. Live music is about the emotion as much as anything, and mistakes are part of the experience.

Your mileage may vary....

[the captain]

I say it's fucking rock music, man. Who cares if somebody sped a tempo or somebody missed a note? Yeah, you want it good, and the BBs made it good enough. But if you want and need it perfect, you're missing the point of the genre. Don't overthink it.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Who cares if somebody sped a tempo or somebody missed a note?

Carl Wilson did. And I think Jeff Foskett does. And Darian.

Anyway, windchimes made his point, and I'm gonna back him on it. It's not a popular view on this board (criticizing Dennis and The Beach Boys musicianship), but I share his view.

This is how I rank the Beach Boys' drummers:

1. Hal Blaine
2. Jim Gordon
3. Ricky Fataar
4. Bobby Figueroa
5. Mike Kowalski
6. Dennis Wilson

It didn't take Brian long to replace Dennis and the rest of the band in the studio, not just to emulate Phil Spector, but to make the best recording possible. And the best (but not all) Beach Boys' records feature Hal Blaine and Jim Gordon. And when The Beach Boys were arguably at their peak as a touring group, Ricky Fataar was the drummer.

Also, I have noticed that the best musicians in the group have been the backing musicians. Mike Meros, Daryl Dragon, Carly Munoz, and even Billy Hinsche on keyboards. Blondie Chaplin, Jeff Foskett, and even Ed Carter on guitar. Listen to Ed's guitar work on Live In Knebworth. He rocks out like Carl rarely did. And don't forget David Marks!

[Jon Stebbins]

God i hate this "i'm an educated musician" sh*t...I bet half of us here are...so what? I had my first guitar lesson in 1966, my first band band in 1972, I'm getting five figure royalty checks in 2006 for stuff I recorded in 1983...do we need to swap resumes? I know a happening drummer when I hear one...and whether or not they push the timing has zero to do with it. Practically every musican i know with any heart would kill to have a drummer like Dennis Wilson to play music with. Blaine? Figueroa? Kowalski? Ask those guys about Dennis as a drummer, I have, I've talked long about him with each of them...I've seen their eyes light up when they talk about what passion, and what power he played with. They all absolutely dug his drumming because it moved an audience, and it drove the band. Are you a better judge than those guys?

Dennis was primitive and there are certain musical types who can't get past that...or his funky technique and tendency to vary in tempo. But what he gave to the music was beyond all that. And Brian didn't "replace" him early on. He supplemented him with great studio drummers. But Dennis played on his share of the records...and many of the best ones...When I Grow Up is a great example...I love his drumming on that record...its as real as you can get. 

 

[I. Spaceman]

..

[I. Spaceman]

God i hate this "i'm an educated musician" merda...I bet half of us here are...so what? I had my first guitar lesson in 1966, my first band band in 1972, I'm getting five figure royalty checks in 2006 for stuff I recorded in 1983...do we need to swap resumes? I know a happening drummer when I hear one...and whether or not they push the timing has zero to do with it. Practically every musican i know with any heart would kill to have a drummer like Dennis Wilson to play music with. Blaine? Figueroa? Kowalski? Ask those guys about Dennis as a drummer, I have, I've talked long about him with each of them...I've seen their eyes light up when they talk about what passion, and what power he played with. They all absolutely dug his drumming because it moved an audience, and it drove the band. Are you a better judge than those guys?

Dennis was primitive and there are certain musical types who can't get past that...or his funky technique and tendency to vary in tempo. But what he gave to the music was beyond all that. And Brian didn't "replace" him early on. He supplemented him with great studio drummers. But Dennis played on his share of the records...and many of the best ones...When I Grow Up is a great example...I love his drumming on that record...its as real as you can get. 

 

EXACTLY.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Jon, speaking of Dennis "funky" technique, have you found out about some of the things Dennis did came about, like how he'd sometimes use traditional grip with his right hand, and how he often played "open" not crossing the right hand over to play hats, instead using the left?  (Which is actually now thought of as an advanced, progressively-minded technique.)

The way Dennis played was fascinating.

Count me in as another highly-trained conservatory-educated classical musician who loves the Beach Boys musicianship.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

John Bonham was a "primitive" drummer, and you'd be hard-pressed to find ANYONE who doesn't consider him one of the greatest rock drummers of all time.

[HeyJude]

This is how I rank the Beach Boys' drummers:

1. Hal Blaine
2. Jim Gordon
3. Ricky Fataar
4. Bobby Figueroa
5. Mike Kowalski
6. Dennis Wilson

I would rate Mike Kowalski at the bottom of that list. Not only is he by far the worst drummer I've ever heard play with the BB's, he's the worst live drummer I've ever heard playing with even a half-way successful or notable band. Interestingly, the examples of Kowalski's drumming during his first stint with the live group in the late 60's/early 70's sounds pretty decent. But when he returned in 1982 or 83, and since that time, his drumming has been awful almost uniformly. He drops beats, often sounds awkward in general, and sounds stiff overall. On *some* of the BB stuff, it's pretty easy to just do a basic 4/4 thing and make it sound decent, but Kowalski has often managed to make even that sound pretty subpar.

Since we're talking live shows here primarily, I don't think it works to even rate the studio drummers like Blaine against the live drummers. As far as live drummers, I'd say Fataar and Figueroa were somewhat comparable (they even played together for a time, as did Figueroa and Kowalski), and Dennis at his worst was still somewhat better than Kowalski. Dennis at his best was, in my mind, pretty darn decent. Listen even to shows from 1980 when he was starting to really go downhill, and he still pulls it off pretty well.

[HeyJude]

I've given a listen to a relatively huge number of live BB shows, and I think that the BB's could be pretty impressive and sometimes quite horrible. In the early-mid 60's, they sounded quite solid, if not as polished as the studio recordings. If you listen to, say, the Michigan '66 live tracks, you hear a pretty polished band, especially considering that by that time they were playing "Good Vibrations" and some "Pet Sounds" stuff. Interestingly, the 1966 BB's were probably a more solid live band thatn the tired, ragged 1966 live Beatles, even though I feel the Beatles were all better musicians. This is proven (in my opinion) by the fact that if you listen to the Beatles' 1969 rooftop concert, which is the closest approximation to what the Beatles could have sounded like had they toured in 1969, the Beatles smoke compared either to past Beatles shows as well as any circa 1969 (or earlier) BB show.

Around 1967, the BB shows started to mirror the contemporary recordings of the time, thus a more laid-back, sparse sound. This could still sometimes sound tight, while other times it could sound pretty sloppy.

By 1968-69, they were sounding more solid again, as is evidenced by the generally enjoyable "Live in London" album. Of course, it was in 1967 and into 68 when they started to use backing musicians.

The pre-Blondie/Ricky early 70's shows were pretty impressive, with the band pulling off tracks like "Surf's Up." When Blondie and Ricky joined, they did hit their peak in terms of musicianship, a more rocking sound, and what was one of the last times their sound was really in line with the contemporary sound of live shows.

When the "Brian's Back" era hit, the BB's still had a bunch of backing musicians, but it seems as if Brian either directly or indirectly brought the quality of the live shows down with him. Carl sounds mildly drunk at shows as early as January 1977, culminating in the infamous collapsing incident in Febuary or March of 1978 in Australia. Carl got his act together soon after. Brian, who had been pretty active in live shows in 1977 and part of 1978, withdrew more by 1979 and was usually just off to the side adding a few vocal bits on songs like "Sloop John B" and "Surfer Girl." Dennis was absent for around a year from mid '79 to mid '80.

Many see 1980 as a turning point with the live band, but I think even in 1980 they sounded pretty strong overall. The 1980 tour was one of the last times that the actual BB's on stage outnumbered the backing members, as there were usually 6 BB's and only 3-4 backing musicians.

I believe 1981 was the turning point both in terms of setlist and performance quality. Carl left, and the BB's performed what has to be their worst-sounding live show that was ever broadcast, the July 5th Queen Mary show in Long Beach. Everybody in the band sounded horrible, including several of the backing band (Baker, Knapp). Carter, Meros, and Figueroa were still on their game, but it wasn't enough.

When Carl returned in mid-1982, one of his conditions for returning was that the band rehearsed more. This sounds to be the case, as shows from 1982 into 1983 sound markedly better, helped by the addition of Jeff Foskett in late 1981 and the return of Billy Hinsche in 1982. But by this time, a live BB show was really hit and miss. In general, especially by the late 80's, they usually sounded the same: Generally tight musicianship-wise (save Kowalski's drumming), and vocally middle of the road. They were certainly able to pick up their game, as is heard from the late 1993 "boxed set tour" shows.

BB shows from any time period could occasionally sound pretty dreadful, and this was the case moreso in the post-1975 period as Jon Stebbins referred to. But this generally had little to do with Dennis' drumming or Al's guitar playing. Dennis often had a second drummer in later years, and when he didn't have a second drummer, that meant he was on his game. Al's guitar playing, which is actualy quite solid, was never a big part of the mix (and I'm talking literally about the sound mix), nor was Bruce's keyboard. Carl was always solid on his few lead guitar spots. By the time they had a significant live backing band by the early 70's, the BB's could never bring a show down themselves based on their musicianship. The main thing the actual official BB's brought to the shows was their vocals, and this is what they often succeeded and failed on.

The BB's are about vocals and the songs, while Stevie Ray Vaughn and those of his ilk are much more about the musicianship; the virtuoso nature of one player. To me, I'd much rather hear a good *song* without any virtuoso musicianship as opposed to some flaming guitar playing with mediocre or repetitive song material. In terms of Stevie Ray Vaught specifically, for someone who isn't a fan of his, I've ended up hearing and watching him quite a bit because a friend of mine is a big fan of his. He was a great guitar player, but I just could never enjoy a full set of his music. It's too much 12-bar blues stuff with busy guitar playing all over it.

Anybody who listens to live recordings or goes to live shows primarily to hear a live act whose main showcase is musicianship more than the actual song material or group vocals, is going to be disappointed by most live BB material.

[shelter]

When I listen to live recordings by the Beach Boys (especially from the late 70s and the 80s and 90s), I mostly hear a band that lacked the self discipline it takes to put down a good, tight and solid show.