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Jeff Mason
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« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2006, 05:38:57 AM »

I'm sure the President isn't as dumb as people think he is -- it's just the way he speaks (though why he has a Texas accent if his parents don't is beyond me) combined with his portrayal in the media. People certainly wouldn't think he was an idiot if not every comedian and joke newscaster was telling you that he was.

On the accent thing -- I don't know where his parents grew up, but if they didn't grow up in Texas and he did, that would be an obvious explanation....
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Jeff Mason
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« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2006, 05:47:55 AM »

And to the unbelievers out there -- sorry about that, but since the principals in this debate (Ian and Charles) are Christian, I chose to frame my thoughts around their debate since they accept the Christian world view.  The rest of you carry on as usual...
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Reverend Joshua Sloane
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« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2006, 10:45:23 AM »

I'm sure the President isn't as dumb as people think he is -- it's just the way he speaks (though why he has a Texas accent if his parents don't is beyond me) combined with his portrayal in the media. People certainly wouldn't think he was an idiot if not every comedian and joke newscaster was telling you that he was.

George speaks like those dumb kids in class who when reading a passage from a book to everyone they skip words like 'disputatious' and replace it with 'dispu-something-or-other'.
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Did it ever occur to you, Cable, how wise and bountiful God was to put breasts on a woman? Just the right number in just the right place. Did you ever notice that, Cable?
I. Spaceman
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« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2006, 11:04:16 AM »

Wonderful, wonderful posts, Jeff.
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the captain
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« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2006, 11:14:38 AM »



On the accent thing -- I don't know where his parents grew up, but if they didn't grow up in Texas and he did, that would be an obvious explanation....

I believe the Bush family is from New England somewhere. Connecticut, maybe. They moved to Texas later, although  believe GW grew up at least partly outside of Texas, too.

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« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2006, 11:39:36 AM »



On the accent thing -- I don't know where his parents grew up, but if they didn't grow up in Texas and he did, that would be an obvious explanation....

I believe the Bush family is from New England somewhere. Connecticut, maybe. They moved to Texas later, although  believe GW grew up at least partly outside of Texas, too.



I heard it's a fake accent.
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"Today, in our increasingly secular world, loving one another doesn't just mean "loving."  It means being forced to accept as normal those behaviors and lifestyles that are absolutely abnormal.  It's not enough to live and let live.  You must chant their mantra as well; you must repent, renounce your own values, and pronounce those of the radical left as superior and adopt them."
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« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2006, 11:41:31 AM »

I thought about saying he fakes it because he wants to sound like a cowboy, but chose not to. It isn't nice to poke fun.
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« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2006, 11:46:13 AM »

Wonderful, wonderful posts, Jeff.

Well, if he were agreeing with me, I'd say the same.

Quote
I have hinted at this before and I will make this explicit now: to a Christian, politics are IRRELEVANT.


To me, that is irreconcilable with:

Quote
Christians should be aware (as all ambassadors should) and vote (rendering unto Caesar and doing civic duty)


But I agree with:

Quote
but not depend upon a corrupt material tool to do incorruptible spiritual work.


We should NOT depend upon the political world to define or defend Christian principles, and we should not be surprised when this world and this country turns its back upon the principles we hold dear.  For example, marriage should be between a man and a woman, but I don't depend upon a court or a legislature to define or defend that.  Children should not be aborted, but I don't expect abortion to become illegal.

The following is not correct:

Quote
I heard it's a fake accent.

Per Wikipedia, "His family moved to Texas when he was two years of age. He was raised in Midland, and Houston, Texas."
« Last Edit: May 28, 2006, 11:48:41 AM by Charles S. LePage » Logged

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Rerun
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« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2006, 11:52:17 AM »

Wonderful, wonderful posts, Jeff.

Well, if he were agreeing with me, I'd say the same.

Quote
I have hinted at this before and I will make this explicit now: to a Christian, politics are IRRELEVANT.


To me, that is irreconcilable with:

Quote
Christians should be aware (as all ambassadors should) and vote (rendering unto Caesar and doing civic duty)


But I agree with:

Quote
but not depend upon a corrupt material tool to do incorruptible spiritual work.


We should NOT depend upon the political world to define or defend Christian principles, and we should not be surprised when this world and this country turns its back upon the principles we hold dear.  For example, marriage should be between a man and a woman, but I don't depend upon a court or a legislature to define or defend that.  Children should not be aborted, but I don't expect abortion to become illegal.

The following is not correct:

Quote
I heard it's a fake accent.

Per Wikipedia, "His family moved to Texas when he was two years of age. He was raised in Midland, and Houston, Texas."

I was being sarcastic...
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"Today, in our increasingly secular world, loving one another doesn't just mean "loving."  It means being forced to accept as normal those behaviors and lifestyles that are absolutely abnormal.  It's not enough to live and let live.  You must chant their mantra as well; you must repent, renounce your own values, and pronounce those of the radical left as superior and adopt them."
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« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2006, 11:55:45 AM »

Did you change your signature, Rerun?
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Reverend Joshua Sloane
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« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2006, 11:56:56 AM »

How much difference can TV possibly make on presidential election outcomes? Is our country so dependent on image that we will choose the guy with the best body or facial features?

Lincoln was concerned about growing his beard prior to the election, figuring people would think it a ploy or plainly that he looked silly.
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Did it ever occur to you, Cable, how wise and bountiful God was to put breasts on a woman? Just the right number in just the right place. Did you ever notice that, Cable?
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« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2006, 12:04:09 PM »

If we tie ourselves to the Republican party and it is marred by scandal?  What happens to the name of the church?

What if a church is tied to a pastor who is marred by scandal?

http://www.sharperiron.org/category/bob-gray/

What happens to the name of the Church?

I, IMO, do not like to state "ALL x are y."  If I were to post every woman who has had an abortion hates children, it wouldn't make any more sense than saying everyone elected to an office is corrupt.
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« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2006, 12:05:13 PM »

How much difference can TV possibly make on presidential election outcomes? Is our country so dependent on image that we will choose the guy with the best body or facial features?

Yes.

Lincoln was concerned about growing his beard prior to the election, figuring people would think it a ploy or plainly that he looked silly.

He grew it upon the suggestion of a little girl, who said it would make him look dignified, according to the recent bio "Team of Rivals."
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« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2006, 12:06:28 PM »

How much difference can TV possibly make on presidential election outcomes? Is our country so dependent on image that we will choose the guy with the best body or facial features?

Yes.

Lincoln was concerned about growing his beard prior to the election, figuring people would think it a ploy or plainly that he looked silly.

He grew it upon the suggestion of a little girl, who said it would make him look dignified, according to the recent bio "Team of Rivals."

http://members.aol.com/RVSNorton1/Lincoln50.html
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Did it ever occur to you, Cable, how wise and bountiful God was to put breasts on a woman? Just the right number in just the right place. Did you ever notice that, Cable?
Jeff Mason
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« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2006, 12:07:07 PM »

Quote
I have hinted at this before and I will make this explicit now: to a Christian, politics are IRRELEVANT.


To me, that is irreconcilable with:

Quote
Christians should be aware (as all ambassadors should) and vote (rendering unto Caesar and doing civic duty)

Sure it is reconcilable.  The first statement says this:  Christians should not focus their energies upon political endeavours unless God calls an individual into public service (which I think is valid).  That's why I used the welfare example.  To be more specific, the church I have chosen to attend does free medical clinics, free law counseling, HIV ministries, ministries to the poor and homeless, oil changes and lawn care for single mothers, et al.  Rather than worrying about what the government should do, Christians should be the church and not worry about what the government is doing about "xyz".  Also, since Christ is our King and ultimately the one who takes care of us -- and the one who puts presidents into office, and that included Bill Clinton, we can be sure that He is control of our lives as believers regardless of political environments.  Campaigning for issues should not be our focus.

However, we are also called to be wise in the ways of the world so that we can minister to the actual needs.  Luther said that if we fought the devil in all his schemes except the very schemes he was currently executing, we have failed.  So while I don't depend upon the government to do anything for me, I still have a responsibility to know what is going on, if only to be a good ambassador.  And I am called to submit to the authorities and be a good citizen, which in a democracy includes voting.  When I vote, I don't do it to try to advance a spiritual agenda.  Some churches are doing this.  This is very near to me -- two churches in my local area are in danger of losing tax-exempt status because of their political activities.  They see it as their Christian goal to get certain leaders in office with certain platforms, most of which have nothing to do with the Christian mission.  It is one thing to say that an individual needs to vote knowledgably, another to say that a Christian looks to political answers or that politics must mirror morality in order for us to conduct our activities.  
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« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2006, 12:08:56 PM »

How much difference can TV possibly make on presidential election outcomes? Is our country so dependent on image that we will choose the guy with the best body or facial features?


Ask Richard Nixon in 1960.  The TV debates were the single strongest factor in his winning the race.  Bob Dole could have been a good president but there was no way he had the charisma to win against Bill Clinton.

EDIT: Oops -- I meant LOSING the race to Kennedy.
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the captain
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« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2006, 12:09:43 PM »

Also, since Christ is our King and ultimately the one who takes care of us -- and the one who puts presidents into office, and that included Bill Clinton, we can be sure that He is control of our lives as believers regardless of political environments. 

Jeff, do you believe that God actively puts presidents in office?
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« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2006, 12:10:11 PM »

It is one thing to say that an individual needs to vote knowledgeably, another to say that a Christian looks to political answers or that politics must mirror morality in order for us to conduct our activities. 

Why would I need to be knowledgeable about voting if the process I'm participating in is irrelevant?  Smiley
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Jeff Mason
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« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2006, 12:13:10 PM »

If we tie ourselves to the Republican party and it is marred by scandal?  What happens to the name of the church?

What if a church is tied to a pastor who is marred by scandal?

http://www.sharperiron.org/category/bob-gray/

What happens to the name of the Church?

I, IMO, do not like to state "ALL x are y."  If I were to post every woman who has had an abortion hates children, it wouldn't make any more sense than saying everyone elected to an office is corrupt.

The Church is a supernatural body that has the ability to receive the power of God to overcome the effects of sin in the members to effect true godliness and to execute God's will.

The Republican party is full of unbelievers, many of whom will stop at nothing to accomplish their goals, although they will never show that overtly.

Which do you want to hitch your wagon to?

Yes, pastors can sin.  But my point is that they in theory have the ability NOT to sin.  Remember what the Bible says about men and their institutions: without God, there is no righteousness.  The ONLY reason that our Constitution has been as effective as it has been for so long is separation of powers, which acts to minimize the impact of fallen man.  I would lean on an institution created by God long before I would one created by man.  I have faith that my pastor is godly (I could be wrong but I doubt it).  I have no faith in the leaders of the Republican party.
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« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2006, 12:15:28 PM »

It is one thing to say that an individual needs to vote knowledgeably, another to say that a Christian looks to political answers or that politics must mirror morality in order for us to conduct our activities. 

Why would I need to be knowledgeable about voting if the process I'm participating in is irrelevant?  Smiley

You mix two different ideas:  you need to know what people are doing around you because they expect you to do this.  It's the whole "paying taxes" thing.  Jesus didn't need to pay taxes but he did.  They are irrelevant because they accomplish nothing toward my completing my mission in life.  God may call me as an individual into public service, but as far as the Church goes, there is nothing politics can do to help that cause.
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« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2006, 12:19:25 PM »

Also, since Christ is our King and ultimately the one who takes care of us -- and the one who puts presidents into office, and that included Bill Clinton, we can be sure that He is control of our lives as believers regardless of political environments. 

Jeff, do you believe that God actively puts presidents in office?

Do I believe that God is sovereign?  Do I believe what the Bible says about God holding the leaders of the earth under His control?  If God is not in control of the election of the most important leader of the entire world, how can I be sure He is in control of my life?  And THAT is why the Clinton-bashing in the 90's made me VERY angry in the church.  Yes, he was immoral and a poor example.  Yes, I voted against him.  But you know what?  God put Him there.  God could easily have let the other one win.  So how can I argue with that?

We have to be careful, because discussing the sovereignty of God with unbelievers present is asking for trouble.  But if God is not in control of the US election, He is not in control of anything.  And if He is not in control, how can you trust Him for anything?
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« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2006, 12:22:44 PM »

Jesus didn't need to pay taxes but he did.  They are irrelevant because they accomplish nothing toward my completing my mission in life.  God may call me as an individual into public service, but as far as the Church goes, there is nothing politics can do to help that cause.

The fact that Jesus showed us an example of following civil law tells me they aren't irrelevant.  Laws and politics should not become idols to distract us from what is most important, but that does not mean they have no significance or bearing.
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« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2006, 12:24:17 PM »

Does that kind of intervention mean that you don't believe in free will? It would seem to me that if elections are "rigged" from above, the wills of voters is not free.

That kind of belief --and please don't think I mean to say you think what I'm about to say, but it is just how I am playing out that thought in my head--would lend itself to arguments that we've got God on our side, woudn't it? I mean, the sort of thought that goes into crusades or holy wars.

And then it also stands to reason that God has placed all world leaders in their respective places, including those in North Korea, Iran, etc., correct? Or historically, including Hitler, Hussein and the like?
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« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2006, 12:24:24 PM »

Also, since Christ is our King and ultimately the one who takes care of us -- and the one who puts presidents into office, and that included Bill Clinton, we can be sure that He is control of our lives as believers regardless of political environments. 

Jeff, do you believe that God actively puts presidents in office?

Do I believe that God is sovereign?  Do I believe what the Bible says about God holding the leaders of the earth under His control?  If God is not in control of the election of the most important leader of the entire world, how can I be sure He is in control of my life?  And THAT is why the Clinton-bashing in the 90's made me VERY angry in the church.  Yes, he was immoral and a poor example.  Yes, I voted against him.  But you know what?  God put Him there.  God could easily have let the other one win.  So how can I argue with that?

We have to be careful, because discussing the sovereignty of God with unbelievers present is asking for trouble.  But if God is not in control of the US election, He is not in control of anything.  And if He is not in control, how can you trust Him for anything?

Wonderful, wonderful post, Jeff.  100% agreement.
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« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2006, 12:25:39 PM »

Jesus didn't need to pay taxes but he did.  They are irrelevant because they accomplish nothing toward my completing my mission in life.  God may call me as an individual into public service, but as far as the Church goes, there is nothing politics can do to help that cause.

The fact that Jesus showed us an example of following civil law tells me they aren't irrelevant.  Laws and politics should not become idols to distract us from what is most important, but that does not mean they have no significance or bearing.

How about this then?  "irrelevant for executing the Christian mission".
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