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Author Topic: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?  (Read 31847 times)
CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #100 on: November 03, 2014, 05:02:46 PM »

Didn't either Negron or Hutton also say (in regards to Redwood/Darlin-gate) that if Mike was the big bad guy here, that they didn't blame him and would have done the same thing if they were in his shoes?

Good enough for me to move on.

Maybe the sentiment of Mike/Carl being unhappy about a potential hit being given away was perfectly understandable to them, but that the method and way which it ultimately went down (the act of communicating this displeasure to Brian) was in and of itself very uncool. Just a possibility to consider.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 05:04:41 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #101 on: November 03, 2014, 05:07:16 PM »

What galls me about this is if  we switched places, I would be facing a barrage of insults for not knowing my history and for making assumptions. But since we haven't switched places, I am unsurprised that the end result is that I am still facing a barrage of insults.

I don't know if "barrage of insults" equals "one insult from person I am having an argument with".
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #102 on: November 03, 2014, 05:14:00 PM »

Didn't either Negron or Hutton also say (in regards to Redwood/Darlin-gate) that if Mike was the big bad guy here, that they didn't blame him and would have done the same thing if they were in his shoes?

Good enough for me to move on.

Maybe the sentiment of Mike/Carl being unhappy about a potential hit being given away was perfectly understandable to them, but that the method and way which it ultimately went down (the act of communicating this displeasure to Brian) was in and of itself very uncool. Just a possibility to consider.

Oh, I'm not saying they weren't "assholes" about it or couldn't have dealt with it better, but considering the precarious situation there were in financially, popularity-wise, and general in-need-of-a-hit-ness, one can be a bit sympathetic for a bit of hurt feelings/panic/anger ..... Sometimes in live such emotions can be perfectly valid.
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« Reply #103 on: November 03, 2014, 05:27:24 PM »

Two tidbits from the Thee Dog Night Story CD Booklet( liner notes by David Leaf): 

       

   
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« Reply #104 on: November 03, 2014, 05:29:48 PM »

Nice, more proof to bring down the agenda of rewriting BBs history.
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And production aside, Id so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #105 on: November 03, 2014, 05:35:06 PM »

Didn't either Negron or Hutton also say (in regards to Redwood/Darlin-gate) that if Mike was the big bad guy here, that they didn't blame him and would have done the same thing if they were in his shoes?

Good enough for me to move on.

Maybe the sentiment of Mike/Carl being unhappy about a potential hit being given away was perfectly understandable to them, but that the method and way which it ultimately went down (the act of communicating this displeasure to Brian) was in and of itself very uncool. Just a possibility to consider.

Oh, I'm not saying they weren't "assholes" about it or couldn't have dealt with it better, but considering the precarious situation there were in financially, popularity-wise, and general in-need-of-a-hit-ness, one can be a bit sympathetic for a bit of hurt feelings/panic/anger ..... Sometimes in live such emotions can be perfectly valid.

Im just guessing that the outsiders witnessed a probable unhealthy family communication style (complicated by the BB band dynamic), and may have observed what they as outsiders believed to be a bullying communication style. Yes, the dreaded b word, which I know is completely unacceptable for some people to ever associate in the remotest of remote ways with Mike.

But face it maybe, just maybe it did happen like that. We dont know. I wouldnt outright dismiss the possibility. I think in particular the situation comes off a bit seeming in that way, since Id imagine Brian branching out to work with others at that time was probably in part due to his desire to try and avoid the politics/emotions that were baggage around the fallout of post-SMiLE BB-ville at that time. He was probably seeking an escape, and was pulled back in by people (family) who knew how to say what was needed to get him to do so. Brian's buttons were pushed, so to speak. How exactly they were pushed, we don't exactly know.

That said, yes I can totally understand and empathize with the idea that Brians bandmates were desperate to not have a repeat of Surf City being given away, especially since they needed a Surf City-sized hit in the worst way at the time.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 05:37:55 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #106 on: November 03, 2014, 05:39:13 PM »

Didn't either Negron or Hutton also say (in regards to Redwood/Darlin-gate) that if Mike was the big bad guy here, that they didn't blame him and would have done the same thing if they were in his shoes?

Good enough for me to move on.

Maybe the sentiment of Mike/Carl being unhappy about a potential hit being given away was perfectly understandable to them, but that the method and way which it ultimately went down (the act of communicating this displeasure to Brian) was in and of itself very uncool. Just a possibility to consider.

Oh, I'm not saying they weren't "assholes" about it or couldn't have dealt with it better, but considering the precarious situation there were in financially, popularity-wise, and general in-need-of-a-hit-ness, one can be a bit sympathetic for a bit of hurt feelings/panic/anger ..... Sometimes in live such emotions can be perfectly valid.

Im just guessing that the outsiders witnessed a probable unhealthy family communication style (complicated by the BB band dynamic), and may have observed what they as outsiders believed to be a bullying communication style. Yes, the dreaded b word, which I know is completely unacceptable for some people to ever associate in the remotest of remote ways with Mike.

But face it maybe, just maybe it did happen like that. We dont know. I wouldnt outright dismiss the possibility. I think in particular the situation comes off a bit seeming in that way, since Id imagine Brian branching out to work with others at that time was probably in part due to his desire to try and avoid the politics/emotions that were baggage around the fallout of post-SMiLE BB-ville at that time. He was probably seeking an escape, and was pulled back in by people (family) who knew how to say what was needed to get him to do so. Brian's buttons were pushed, so to speak. How exactly they were pushed, we don't exactly know.

That said, yes I can totally understand and empathize with the idea that Brians bandmates were desperate to not have a repeat of Surf City being given away, especially since they needed a Surf City-sized hit in the worst way at the time.

This was also going down in the studio the Beach Boys were all paying for, which likely didn't help...

I don't dispute how it reportedly went down. I'm just using a bit of empathy toward all those involved.

I've been in a billion bands and know exactly how it can feel when bandmates/leaders get tangled up in side projects, and this was with basically no stakes involved (other than emotional ones) in comparison with The Beach Boys.... and I've witnessed some pretty ugly scenes.

Maybe I can related a bit too much.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 05:42:24 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
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« Reply #107 on: November 03, 2014, 05:49:07 PM »

I think where the hesitation lies is with Negron's claim that Mike and Carl verbally abused Brian. Clearly, using all the different pieces, it seems safe to assume that Carl and Mike did intervene and stop Brian from working with Danny Hutton any further. However, none of the other sources we've seen - even Ray's own story - have any mention of Mike and Carl berating him off in another booth. It certainly doesn't seem like anything Carl would do or would be a part of.

Maybe it happened - and due to that claim's very nature, maybe it didn't. One side will spring to the "maybe it happened, so let's assume it did", while the other will say "maybe it didn't happen, so let's not assume it did". In the end, memories are extremely faulty (especially old ones) and no matter what, someone is going to be rewriting history with their telling. Probably everyone.
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« Reply #108 on: November 03, 2014, 05:56:49 PM »

Didn't either Negron or Hutton also say (in regards to Redwood/Darlin-gate) that if Mike was the big bad guy here, that they didn't blame him and would have done the same thing if they were in his shoes?

Good enough for me to move on.

Maybe the sentiment of Mike/Carl being unhappy about a potential hit being given away was perfectly understandable to them, but that the method and way which it ultimately went down (the act of communicating this displeasure to Brian) was in and of itself very uncool. Just a possibility to consider.

Oh, I'm not saying they weren't "assholes" about it or couldn't have dealt with it better, but considering the precarious situation there were in financially, popularity-wise, and general in-need-of-a-hit-ness, one can be a bit sympathetic for a bit of hurt feelings/panic/anger ..... Sometimes in live such emotions can be perfectly valid.

Im just guessing that the outsiders witnessed a probable unhealthy family communication style (complicated by the BB band dynamic), and may have observed what they as outsiders believed to be a bullying communication style. Yes, the dreaded b word, which I know is completely unacceptable for some people to ever associate in the remotest of remote ways with Mike.

But face it maybe, just maybe it did happen like that. We dont know. I wouldnt outright dismiss the possibility. I think in particular the situation comes off a bit seeming in that way, since Id imagine Brian branching out to work with others at that time was probably in part due to his desire to try and avoid the politics/emotions that were baggage around the fallout of post-SMiLE BB-ville at that time. He was probably seeking an escape, and was pulled back in by people (family) who knew how to say what was needed to get him to do so. Brian's buttons were pushed, so to speak. How exactly they were pushed, we don't exactly know.

That said, yes I can totally understand and empathize with the idea that Brians bandmates were desperate to not have a repeat of Surf City being given away, especially since they needed a Surf City-sized hit in the worst way at the time.

This was also going down in the studio the Beach Boys were all paying for, which likely didn't help...

I don't dispute how it reportedly went down. I'm just using a bit of empathy toward all those involved.

I've been in a billion bands and know exactly how it can feel when bandmates/leaders get tangled up in side projects, and this was with basically no stakes involved (other than emotional ones) in comparison with The Beach Boys.... and I've witnessed some pretty ugly scenes.

Maybe I can related a bit too much.

I hadn't thought about the part that this was going down in the studio they were all paying for - you are correct, that certainly wouldn't have helped.  

And I can totally, absolutely get how get the side project thing would have been upsetting and threatening (not entirely dissimilar from VDP's recent presence perhaps being thought of as an unwanted side project within the BBs band itself). While I can have absolutely have empathy about that, I don't think that how some band members (mainly Mike I'm guessing) may have communicated to Brian should just be deemed by definition as acceptable. Maybe some of what he dealt with would have been termed emotional bullying/abuse.  And maybe that's an exaggeration. But I think the possibility should not be poopooed outright. Some people on this board I think have an "anything goes" type of ideology in discussing how Brian might have been subjected to some very unhealthy messed-up communication styles in this saga, as well as the SMiLE saga, and I don't think that's right.  
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 06:11:41 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #109 on: November 03, 2014, 06:31:37 PM »

I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?
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« Reply #110 on: November 03, 2014, 07:10:27 PM »

I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

And as far as paying studio fees, that too was an investment as part of the Brother business plan, similar to how Brother would have paid the studio costs for The Flame, Manson, The Pickle Brothers, and any number of outside acts which band members other than Brian brought onto the Brother label.
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« Reply #111 on: November 03, 2014, 07:17:51 PM »

I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

 

Perhaps it would have only been deemed "acceptable" and non-threatening to the other Boys if Brian (in addition to producing/writing for Redwood), was also simultaneously bringing his A-game to the BBs in terms of writing/producing for them. Was it sensed that Brian was too engaged with the outsiders, coupled with his interest level with the BBs waning?

I'm wondering if it was assumed (or maybe even spoken about inter-personally in the BBs beforehand) that whenever a BB member would bring in another artist, that the BBs member's priorities would nonetheless always lie with the BBs. This would make sense. Bandmates often don't want a member's side project to be a bigger priority than the main band. I would think Mike would feel this way most of all.

And if it was obvious that this wasn't the case (or that Brian's music with Redwood was "too good" to give away and better than the material he was writing for the BBs), that this may have set in motion a plan to stop Brian in his tracks.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 07:27:43 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #112 on: November 03, 2014, 07:44:50 PM »

I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

And as far as paying studio fees, that too was an investment as part of the Brother business plan, similar to how Brother would have paid the studio costs for The Flame, Manson, The Pickle Brothers, and any number of outside acts which band members other than Brian brought onto the Brother label.

GuitarFool; great post .  The only thing I could add is the following: In November 1967 , right before Thanksgiving, I saw the Beach Boys at Westchester County Civic Center in NY. One of the opening acts was The Pickle Brothers. I remember one of the "jokes" that went something like this...." So we were in Hawaii in August with The Beach Boys and we went to a luau on the beach one night; all the girls were wearing grass skirts. Mike Love tried to smoke them".  Curley Joe was funnier than the Pickle Brothers. 
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« Reply #113 on: November 03, 2014, 08:01:16 PM »

I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

 

Perhaps it would have only been deemed "acceptable" and non-threatening to the other Boys if Brian (in addition to producing/writing for Redwood), was also simultaneously bringing his A-game to the BBs in terms of writing/producing for them. Was it sensed that Brian was too engaged with the outsiders, coupled with his interest level with the BBs waning?

I'm wondering if it was assumed (or maybe even spoken about inter-personally in the BBs beforehand) that whenever a BB member would bring in another artist, that the BBs member's priorities would nonetheless always lie with the BBs. This would make sense. Bandmates often don't want a member's side project to be a bigger priority than the main band. I would think Mike would feel this way most of all.

And if it was obvious that this wasn't the case (or that Brian's music with Redwood was "too good" to give away and better than the material he was writing for the BBs), that this may have set in motion a plan to stop Brian in his tracks.

I have to bust a myth here, or at least correct some information that I think the reply may have been based on.

We're talking about bringing Brian's "A Game" to the band, about priorities, about saving the choice cuts for the Beach Boys.

I think we're forgetting about the "Wild Honey" single. That single was released in the USA the last week in October 1967. It had been in the can since late September and was being readied for release as the Redwood sessions were happening.

Some of the comments suggest that the Beach Boys must have had a crystal ball and were able to see into the future to predict how that single was going to chart, if they were worried about Brian bringing something less to their table and taking the choice cuts to Redwood, if this happened a week or so before the new single would even come out.

When it *did* come out, here's the myth-busting, it actually performed very well regionally, usually cracking the top 20 in most AM Top 40 surveys and in some areas it went top 5 going well into November '67. So even going into November '67, if the band was getting reports that the single was still climbing in certain regions like DC, Philly, Detroit, etc, how would it lead them to think Brian had not given them his A Game effort on this current single?

Consider from that era of top-40 radio that those specific markets I mentioned for a reason were more heavy markets for R&B and soul music, and Wild Honey was even according to Carl, Brian's attempt to go for a heavier, white R&B sound. And in DC, for one, it reached #2 locally with the "Good Guys" station, and other cities saw it hit top 10 or even top 5.

So if the Beach Boys as a whole were thinking what has been suggested they were thinking, about Brian keeping the "good stuff" for himself and Redwood while giving the band scraps, how could they possibly have known the chart performance of their newest single when the Redwood stuff happened considering:

A - it had not yet been released

and B - as they were finalizing the album into November 1967 the current single was still climbing the charts in various radio markets around the US. Did they know how far it would go before it was released?

So I just don't put much weight if any at all in the theory that the band did what they did based on the quality of work Brian was bringing to them considering the new single had not even been released, and no one unless they were channeling Nostradamus could predict how it would perform after it hit the airwaves. And even after the Beach Boys put their own vocals on Darlin on Oct 27, the Wild Honey single was just getting traction in many of these regional markets and had in no way "stalled" until well into November 1967.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 08:06:36 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #114 on: November 03, 2014, 08:11:25 PM »

GuitarFool; great post .  The only thing I could add is the following: In November 1967 , right before Thanksgiving, I saw the Beach Boys at Westchester County Civic Center in NY. One of the opening acts was The Pickle Brothers. I remember one of the "jokes" that went something like this...." So we were in Hawaii in August with The Beach Boys and we went to a luau on the beach one night; all the girls were wearing grass skirts. Mike Love tried to smoke them".  Curley Joe was funnier than the Pickle Brothers. 

 LOL  Curley Joe! Now that is a reference! Based on that I'm wondering if one of the Pickle Bros kept a rubber chicken stuffed in his suit pocket for emergencies in case their jokes started to die.
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« Reply #115 on: November 03, 2014, 08:11:42 PM »

I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

 

Perhaps it would have only been deemed "acceptable" and non-threatening to the other Boys if Brian (in addition to producing/writing for Redwood), was also simultaneously bringing his A-game to the BBs in terms of writing/producing for them. Was it sensed that Brian was too engaged with the outsiders, coupled with his interest level with the BBs waning?

I'm wondering if it was assumed (or maybe even spoken about inter-personally in the BBs beforehand) that whenever a BB member would bring in another artist, that the BBs member's priorities would nonetheless always lie with the BBs. This would make sense. Bandmates often don't want a member's side project to be a bigger priority than the main band. I would think Mike would feel this way most of all.

And if it was obvious that this wasn't the case (or that Brian's music with Redwood was "too good" to give away and better than the material he was writing for the BBs), that this may have set in motion a plan to stop Brian in his tracks.

I have to bust a myth here, or at least correct some information that I think the reply may have been based on.

We're talking about bringing Brian's "A Game" to the band, about priorities, about saving the choice cuts for the Beach Boys.

I think we're forgetting about the "Wild Honey" single. That single was released in the USA the last week in October 1967. It had been in the can since late September and was being readied for release as the Redwood sessions were happening.

Some of the comments suggest that the Beach Boys must have had a crystal ball and were able to see into the future to predict how that single was going to chart, if they were worried about Brian bringing something less to their table and taking the choice cuts to Redwood, if this happened a week or so before the new single would even come out.

When it *did* come out, here's the myth-busting, it actually performed very well regionally, usually cracking the top 20 in most AM Top 40 surveys and in some areas it went top 5 going well into November '67. So even going into November '67, if the band was getting reports that the single was still climbing in certain regions like DC, Philly, Detroit, etc, how would it lead them to think Brian had not given them his A Game effort on this current single?

Consider from that era of top-40 radio that those specific markets I mentioned for a reason were more heavy markets for R&B and soul music, and Wild Honey was even according to Carl, Brian's attempt to go for a heavier, white R&B sound. And in DC, for one, it reached #2 locally with the "Good Guys" station, and other cities saw it hit top 10 or even top 5.

So if the Beach Boys as a whole were thinking what has been suggested they were thinking, about Brian keeping the "good stuff" for himself and Redwood while giving the band scraps, how could they possibly have known the chart performance of their newest single when the Redwood stuff happened considering:

A - it had not yet been released

and B - as they were finalizing the album into November 1967 the current single was still climbing the charts in various radio markets around the US. Did they know how far it would go before it was released?

So I just don't put much weight if any at all in the theory that the band did what they did based on the quality of work Brian was bringing to them considering the new single had not even been released, and no one unless they were channeling Nostradamus could predict how it would perform after it hit the airwaves. And even after the Beach Boys put their own vocals on Darlin on Oct 27, the Wild Honey single was just getting traction in many of these regional markets and had in no way "stalled" until well into November 1967.

I appreciate the clarification, guitarfool - your wealth of knowledge on this stuff is remarkable and great to have for discussions like this. In terms of hypothesizing motivations for why Brian, was for lack of better word "encouraged" to ditch the Redwood sessions, if the "A" game theory is wholly inaccurate, I'd still imagine there had to have been some sort of final straw that made the Mike/Carl incident happen, or at least a culmination of various nagging reasons in the air which caused it.
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« Reply #116 on: November 03, 2014, 08:23:25 PM »

.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 03:35:25 PM by halblaineisgood » Logged
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« Reply #117 on: November 03, 2014, 08:29:47 PM »



In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

My new favorite fact . LOL


In case I wasnt quite clear on my last post.....The Maharishi was a funnier opening act than the f..kng Pickle Brothers
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« Reply #118 on: November 03, 2014, 08:39:38 PM »


In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.


Well, that's an interesting little snapshot, right there.

Now, I'm absolutely no Beach Boys historian. Got the big picture, but don't really need to track all of the ins and outs of this group to enjoy the music.

 But, as someone way on the outside looking in, I have to wonder if, at some point in this era, Brian just got tired of being treated as a commodity. Not only by the record companies, but by his own family and band. And, I have to wonder if the band sensed this resentment and knew he wasn't fully engaged with them. And, I have to wonder if Brian producing Redwood was, to them, a case of the "goose that laid the golden egg" clucking in someone else's henhouse.

That sounded better in my head. Hopefully you get the drift.

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« Reply #119 on: November 03, 2014, 08:44:50 PM »

I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

And as far as paying studio fees, that too was an investment as part of the Brother business plan, similar to how Brother would have paid the studio costs for The Flame, Manson, The Pickle Brothers, and any number of outside acts which band members other than Brian brought onto the Brother label.

Thank you. That clears up a crucial part of the issue .....

Only in Beach Boys-land would you get "The Pickle Brothers" and Manson popping up in the same topic of discussion!

But what about Mike being co-author of Darlin being a possible factor in his not being thrilled that Brian was recording it with some other group?

Oh, and as for why the Beach Boys might care about Brian bringing another group in to record a pop single written by two Beach Boys vs not giving a shite about Mike bringing in a comedy trio to record comedy bits? ...... Well, ...... I think the answer lies within the question and is perfectly obvious.
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« Reply #120 on: November 04, 2014, 12:31:46 AM »

Yeah, I think it is clear why Darlin was different and the fact that Brian has yet to write a song that has performed as well in his homeland in the 47 years that have followed is another indication of that.
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« Reply #121 on: November 04, 2014, 03:44:17 AM »

I think where the hesitation lies is with Negron's claim that Mike and Carl verbally abused Brian. Clearly, using all the different pieces, it seems safe to assume that Carl and Mike did intervene and stop Brian from working with Danny Hutton any further. However, none of the other sources we've seen - even Ray's own story - have any mention of Mike and Carl berating him off in another booth. It certainly doesn't seem like anything Carl would do or would be a part of.

Maybe it happened - and due to that claim's very nature, maybe it didn't. One side will spring to the "maybe it happened, so let's assume it did", while the other will say "maybe it didn't happen, so let's not assume it did". In the end, memories are extremely faulty (especially old ones) and no matter what, someone is going to be rewriting history with their telling. Probably everyone.

The best post I've read in a long time!  Totally agree! Smiley
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« Reply #122 on: November 04, 2014, 03:48:38 AM »

I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

And as far as paying studio fees, that too was an investment as part of the Brother business plan, similar to how Brother would have paid the studio costs for The Flame, Manson, The Pickle Brothers, and any number of outside acts which band members other than Brian brought onto the Brother label.

How many, if any, BBs were giving away group songs to their solo outside productions?
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« Reply #123 on: November 04, 2014, 03:56:54 AM »

I think where the hesitation lies is with Negron's claim that Mike and Carl verbally abused Brian. Clearly, using all the different pieces, it seems safe to assume that Carl and Mike did intervene and stop Brian from working with Danny Hutton any further. However, none of the other sources we've seen - even Ray's own story - have any mention of Mike and Carl berating him off in another booth. It certainly doesn't seem like anything Carl would do or would be a part of.

Maybe it happened - and due to that claim's very nature, maybe it didn't. One side will spring to the "maybe it happened, so let's assume it did", while the other will say "maybe it didn't happen, so let's not assume it did". In the end, memories are extremely faulty (especially old ones) and no matter what, someone is going to be rewriting history with their telling. Probably everyone.

The best post I've read in a long time!  Totally agree! Smiley

I may be a little foggy on Negron's quote but I  think some take issue with him filling in some blanks of something he himself said he couldn't hear.
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« Reply #124 on: November 04, 2014, 06:33:59 AM »

Why are people responding as if anyone in this thread has blamed Mike Love for the Darlin' incident?
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