Mike & Carl in Late 1997 Question/Discussion

[HeyJude]

Andrew, the 29th cannot be correct. I attended either the 28th or 29th show and Carl did not play that night.

Then you attended the 28th - I'll amend. Carl's last show was definitely the 29th.

Not questioning the validity of this assertion, but just wondering what the sources are for the 29th being the last show for Carl. So he played the 26th, 27th, missed the 28th, played again the 29th?

It does seem a little odd that he would miss a single day. Even odder that it was in the middle of a group of shows. it makes sense that he would not be able to make the full grouping of shows, but you'd think he'd miss the last day(or two). He was sick enough to miss a show, and be ok for the very next one?  

I think it's a feasible scenario. Just curious about what actually happened.

I haven't commented in this discussion until now, but I have had experience (as have many others on the board) with loved ones fighting cancer. In the past 8 years I lost both parents who were fighting cancer, and what I'd like to add is that from what I witnessed with them and others, it can be a day-to-day existence and struggle, even an hour-by-hour situation.

My dad, who was also named Carl and whose birthday would have been coming up next week, had good days and bad days, just like everyone else battling cancer or any other illness. In those last years when I was taking care of things with him, he'd have a day where he'd be up and around, doing things - cooking, walking around, suggesting going out for a meal, etc. - then the next day he had no energy or stamina at all, and I saw how it really brought him down that he wasn't able to do his "normal" routine. Of all that happened, that was one of the toughest things to witness. Going from active to just not having the strength or energy to get up out of the chair, again on a day-to-day basis. And that got worse with time. Likewise, in retrospect it was really tough to watch what would go on when we'd go to the cancer treatment center, sometimes on a weekly basis, depending on the treatments at the time. Same with my mom before that. You'd be sitting in the waiting areas with people, you'd get to know or recognize them and their families, and some days they'd look energetic, smiling, whatever...and other days you could tell it wasn't a good day. Then there were those who were the "regulars" that would come in every time we were there, then one week you wouldn't see them. Bless those people who work in that field, to handle that emotion on a daily basis.

So the fact that Carl Wilson was sick and couldn't do a show one day but played one the next isn't surprising at all, nor is it out of the ordinary. Again, from what I saw one of the toughest personal struggles was the desire to do the things you wanted to do, were accustomed to doing, or even loved to do, but which the illness physically (or mentally) prevented you from doing. And if there were a "good day" so to speak, you'd want to get back into that normal routine as much as you could. Carl was a musician, he loved being a musician and playing music for people: I'm sure like all of those who have battled cancer, he'd try any way he could to do just that and do what he loved and wanted to do, but some days the illness just kept him from doing so.

GuitarFool;

Very sorry about your parents ; cancer is hideous, a horror to any family that has had to deal with it.

The crux of Hey Jude's question , I believe, is what was Elliott Lott referring to in Carlin's book and the Rolling Stone article; i.e. Mike's stating he would not appear with Carl ; with Carl being very ill , wearing a wig  and requiring oxygen in between songs ect.  What Elliott Lott was defending, was the letter that Mike had sent to BRI effectively demanding that Carl should step down from touring ; if not , then he (Mike) was going to quit. I remember that Brian's reponse to the letter was that he felt Carl should tour as long as he felt like he could, and that it should be up to Carl when he stops. Elliott was attempting to define it as tough love from Mike in getting Carl to step down.

Thank you for sharing this information. This is definitely the type of information I hoped might me elicited, and it makes Lott's comments make much more sense, as it potentially does Al's comments that Mike refused "to tour with the Beach Boys."

As others have mentioned, I'm curious whether it has any impact on when Carl took time off. I'm curious when that letter was written.

[Ray Lawlor]

Thank you, Ray for sharing that with us. My next question is this: didn't MIke realize that his action might be interpreted by less sympathetic (to Mike) as an act of cold heartedness?  I realize it had to be difficult for Miike, but I don't think I could have made such a demand if I was in Mike's shoes.

 Andy , you're welcome , but  I believe that info has been around for awhile.  I think that sometimes when things are written , they can look devoid of emotion or feeling . That is why Elliott Lott was attempting to quantify Mike's perspective, and what he meant in his letter. At least that's the way I am reading it.

[CenturyDeprived]

Andrew, the 29th cannot be correct. I attended either the 28th or 29th show and Carl did not play that night.

Then you attended the 28th - I'll amend. Carl's last show was definitely the 29th.

Not questioning the validity of this assertion, but just wondering what the sources are for the 29th being the last show for Carl. So he played the 26th, 27th, missed the 28th, played again the 29th?

It does seem a little odd that he would miss a single day. Even odder that it was in the middle of a group of shows. it makes sense that he would not be able to make the full grouping of shows, but you'd think he'd miss the last day(or two). He was sick enough to miss a show, and be ok for the very next one?  

I think it's a feasible scenario. Just curious about what actually happened.

I haven't commented in this discussion until now, but I have had experience (as have many others on the board) with loved ones fighting cancer. In the past 8 years I lost both parents who were fighting cancer, and what I'd like to add is that from what I witnessed with them and others, it can be a day-to-day existence and struggle, even an hour-by-hour situation.

My dad, who was also named Carl and whose birthday would have been coming up next week, had good days and bad days, just like everyone else battling cancer or any other illness. In those last years when I was taking care of things with him, he'd have a day where he'd be up and around, doing things - cooking, walking around, suggesting going out for a meal, etc. - then the next day he had no energy or stamina at all, and I saw how it really brought him down that he wasn't able to do his "normal" routine. Of all that happened, that was one of the toughest things to witness. Going from active to just not having the strength or energy to get up out of the chair, again on a day-to-day basis. And that got worse with time. Likewise, in retrospect it was really tough to watch what would go on when we'd go to the cancer treatment center, sometimes on a weekly basis, depending on the treatments at the time. Same with my mom before that. You'd be sitting in the waiting areas with people, you'd get to know or recognize them and their families, and some days they'd look energetic, smiling, whatever...and other days you could tell it wasn't a good day. Then there were those who were the "regulars" that would come in every time we were there, then one week you wouldn't see them. Bless those people who work in that field, to handle that emotion on a daily basis.

So the fact that Carl Wilson was sick and couldn't do a show one day but played one the next isn't surprising at all, nor is it out of the ordinary. Again, from what I saw one of the toughest personal struggles was the desire to do the things you wanted to do, were accustomed to doing, or even loved to do, but which the illness physically (or mentally) prevented you from doing. And if there were a "good day" so to speak, you'd want to get back into that normal routine as much as you could. Carl was a musician, he loved being a musician and playing music for people: I'm sure like all of those who have battled cancer, he'd try any way he could to do just that and do what he loved and wanted to do, but some days the illness just kept him from doing so.

GuitarFool;

Very sorry about your parents ; cancer is hideous, a horror to any family that has had to deal with it.

The crux of Hey Jude's question , I believe, is what was Elliott Lott referring to in Carlin's book and the Rolling Stone article; i.e. Mike's stating he would not appear with Carl ; with Carl being very ill , wearing a wig  and requiring oxygen in between songs ect.  What Elliott Lott was defending, was the letter that Mike had sent to BRI effectively demanding that Carl should step down from touring ; if not , then he (Mike) was going to quit. I remember that Brian's reponse to the letter was that he felt Carl should tour as long as he felt like he could, and that it should be up to Carl when he stops. Elliott was attempting to define it as tough love from Mike in getting Carl to step down.

Thank you for sharing this information. This is definitely the type of information I hoped might me elicited, and it makes Lott's comments make much more sense, as it potentially does Al's comments that Mike refused "to tour with the Beach Boys."

As others have mentioned, I'm curious whether it has any impact on when Carl took time off. I'm curious when that letter was written.

I'd imagine this was the first and last time Mike ever threatened quit the BBs in some fashion.

[CenturyDeprived]

What Elliott Lott was defending, was the letter that Mike had sent to BRI effectively demanding that Carl should step down from touring ; if not , then he (Mike) was going to quit. I remember that Brian's reponse to the letter was that he felt Carl should tour as long as he felt like he could, and that it should be up to Carl when he stops.

I never knew about the letter. I guess the next question is...when Carl left the tour, did he do it on his own?

Maybe it could be best explained as an act of tough love amidst a time of incredible sadness and unrelated politics. I would tend to doubt that a letter like that had zero effect whatsoever. Was a sick man bravely dealing with his illness really going to be able to work with a person who doesn't want him onstage (even for a reason that person, Mike, believes to be legit)? With as much as he had on his plate at the time, it's mighty hard to phathom Carl trying navigate the vibes playing in a band with a bandmate who has gone to such lengths as write a letter, with a threat of an ultimatum, to see that Carl would stop touring. I'm not passing judgment on reasoning, but I would think that such a letter would have had *some* perceptible impact.

[Autotune]

Those that attended shows at the time witnessed Carl's beautiful voice and commitment as a performer, even through pain. They were also witnesses, at least for an hour and a half, of the seriousness of Carl's battle for his health. No doubt his cousin witnessed a whole lot more during those days, and had reason to put on the table such a dramatic request (say what you will, but seen from today's perspective, there has to be something very serious and painful going on in order for ML to consider quitting a tour). Also, if I remember correctly, by mid-1997 there were hopes in the family that Carl might recover, and these hopes vanished by the end of the year (please correct!), so maybe the group, or Mike, or Carl himself thought that he could work better at recovery if not touring.

[Ray Lawlor]

Those that attended shows at the time witnessed Carl's beautiful voice and commitment as a performer, even through pain. They were also witnesses, at least for an hour and a half, of the seriousness of Carl's battle for his health. No doubt his cousin witnessed a whole lot more during those days, and had reason to put on the table such a dramatic request (say what you will, but seen from today's perspective, there has to be something very serious and painful going on in order for ML to consider quitting a tour). Also, if I remember correctly, by mid-1997 there were hopes in the family that Carl might recover, and these hopes vanished by the end of the year (please correct!), so maybe the group, or Mike, or Carl himself thought that he could work better at recovery if not touring.

I can't comment on what it was like to see Carl on stage in 1997 after he took ill ; the last BB concert I saw before C50 was in 1993 in NYC at the Paramount; they were great that night; especially in the unplugged set; one of the great live versions ever, that night, of "Caroline, No" by Carl. From reading the eyewitness audience accounts of Carl's last tour, it sounds like it was great to hear , but really sad to see.  I would think it must have been really tough to be up there on stage with him,  as I would assume everyone present had to know that he may have been playing his last tour .  I didn't really know Carl , but met him several times over the years ; the last time in LA, the fall of 97 after he had stopped touring. Just terrible ; fu..king cancer.

[Jim V.]

Interesting that after Ray posted this largely previously unknown info, certain parties haven't had anything to say. Sure is interesting.

[Andrew G. Doe]

No need: when Ray's in the 'hood, usually no further comment required, especially when he adds this coda:

"I think that sometimes when things are written, they can look devoid of emotion or feeling. That is why Elliott Lott was attempting to quantify Mike's perspective, and what he meant in his letter. At least that's the way I am reading it."

And as he also noted, this isn't entirely previously unknown info.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Also, if I remember correctly, by mid-1997 there were hopes in the family that Carl might recover, and these hopes vanished by the end of the year (please correct!), so maybe the group, or Mike, or Carl himself thought that he could work better at recovery if not touring.

Ironically, at Audree's funeral a lot of folk thought Carl looked pretty good (considering) and were hoping for the best... then, after Brian watched the 1998 Super Bowl with him (I think at Jerry Schilling's place), he reportedly told Melinda on the way back "I don't think we're gonna see him again". That was on January 25th. Carl died 12 days later.

[Lonely Summer]

Also, if I remember correctly, by mid-1997 there were hopes in the family that Carl might recover, and these hopes vanished by the end of the year (please correct!), so maybe the group, or Mike, or Carl himself thought that he could work better at recovery if not touring.

Ironically, at Audree's funeral a lot of folk thought Carl looked pretty good (considering) and were hoping for the best... then, after Brian watched the 1998 Super Bowl with him (I think at Jerry Schilling's place), he reportedly told Melinda on the way back "I don't think we're gonna see him again". That was on January 25th. Carl died 12 days later.

It still breaks my heart that he is gone. 

[Emdeeh]

Me too.

I still love that man very much -- he was a good one.

[ToneBender631]

Andrew, the 29th cannot be correct. I attended either the 28th or 29th show and Carl did not play that night.

Then you attended the 28th - I'll amend. Carl's last show was definitely the 29th.

Not questioning the validity of this assertion, but just wondering what the sources are for the 29th being the last show for Carl. So he played the 26th, 27th, missed the 28th, played again the 29th?

It does seem a little odd that he would miss a single day. Even odder that it was in the middle of a group of shows. it makes sense that he would not be able to make the full grouping of shows, but you'd think he'd miss the last day(or two). He was sick enough to miss a show, and be ok for the very next one? 

FWIW, when I saw Al at Resorts back in June of this year, he commented on-stage that the last time they had played that room was Carl's final show.

[GhostyTMRS]

Thank you, Ray for sharing that with us. My next question is this: didn't MIke realize that his action might be interpreted by less sympathetic (to Mike) as an act of cold heartedness?  I realize it had to be difficult for Miike, but I don't think I could have made such a demand if I was in Mike's shoes.

 Andy , you're welcome , but  I believe that info has been around for awhile.  I think that sometimes when things are written , they can look devoid of emotion or feeling . That is why Elliott Lott was attempting to quantify Mike's perspective, and what he meant in his letter. At least that's the way I am reading it.

I had the same feeling (as I stated earlier) it seemed like a clumsily worded statement at best. 

[Cam Mott]

Thanks Ray for the confirmation that it did happen.

[filledeplage]

Me too.

I still love that man very much -- he was a good one.

Never a day passes that Carl's voice isn't part of it...

Singing from Heaven....how lucky are we?

Loved your story of that last concert with him singing right to you...

Thanks for that.

[BB Universe]

Just want to mention that Carl's works on the Beckley Lamm Wilson CD - especially I Wish for You and Like a Brother - are sometimes forgotten but so very good too and a recall what a great voice he was.

[ESQ Editor]

Carl was one of a kind.  I did not know him, but was grateful for having met him.

[bgas]

Carl was one of a kind.  I did not know him, but was grateful for having met him.

Is there anyone anywhere not grateful for having met Carl?

[NHC]

I wish Brian would get his ass into gear and release the gosh-darned album... this is getting old fast.

Wait.  Brian has an album coming out?

[ontor pertawst]

Something called Peer No Pleasure.

[37!ws]

Just to chip in my two cents as a fan...

Carl's death devastated me, like many of you. Two things also floated through my head: 1) I had seen the Beach Boys in the summer of 1996 for the first time (and, except for C50, the ONLY time), and I recall being very pleasantly surprised after all I heard about the tackiness of the cheerleaders (turns out they had just stopped using them!), Mike's 20-year-old scripted dialog (as a first-timer, it actually sounded fresh to my ears), and overall..just the ENERGY that came from that stage...the musical energy, that is (not PERSONAL energy -- let's face it, it was just five guy standing in one place and singing and strumming and not doing anything else)...and when I heard of Carl's death, I thought: I'll never experience that energy again; and 2) please, please, PLEEEEEEEASE, if Mike continues touring, do NOT call it "The Beach Boys." No Wilsons = no Beach Boys, period. That's how I felt then, that's how I felt now, PERIOD. I don't care what the BRI lawyers say -- one original Beach Boy plus a non-original two-time Beach Boy and a bunch of "Who??" are NOT "The Beach Boys." To me, that's like Paul McCartney and Jimmy Nichol getting together with two unknown guitarists and calling themselves "The Beatles."

Now...someone had asked about the paucity of visual documentation of the 1997 tour. I'm sure I mentioned it before, but in the concert book that came out not too long ago, there is a picture of Carl onstage from 1997 (I think from Rosemont, IL) -- and if you didn't know it was Carl, you'd never know there was anything wrong...just looks like some guy, you know? But...some years ago I was at someone's apartment and a friend was showing audience video of one of the '97 shows, specifically "Sail On, Sailor" with special guest Blondie Chaplin. Carl was sitting down and playing guitar. Other than that, I didn't find anything unusual. his head might have been a little puffier than normal, but there was no question that it was the Carl we all know and love, and he had a huge smile on his face from ear to ear...heck, I might have been GIVEN that tape; I'll have to check...the only other things I've seen were from camcorder footage taken from FAR back, so far that you couldn't really make out who was who.

But what I'm questioning is not the quasi-sudden lack of pictures and video from the 1997 tour...it's the lack of ANYTHING about Carl. It just occurs to me that we don't really know a heck of a lot about the guy, and if there's one Beach Boy we probably WOULD want to know about, it'd definitely be Carl. From all I gather, he was the one with the clear head and was able to keep his sh*t together amidst all the problems the band had. (And by his own admission, the amount of scandal and other problems that had gotten out about the Beach Boys didn't even scratch the surface.) What kept him level-headed? What was he all about? What made him tick?

Yeah, you can blame the smoking (and as a vehement anti-tobacco guy I certainly do, especially after hearing from someone who [says he] worked with the Beach Boys for a long time that Carl kept smoking almost until his dying day), but I firmly believe that simply being not just a Beach Boy but the Wilson brother who had to keep it all together, dealing with Dennis's addictions and violent outbursts, dealing with Brian's problems, (and think about how many times Carl's phone rang and he wondered if it was finally going to be the dreaded message that Brian or Dennis finally was no more), the times Mike would cause trouble with the band (often related to fasting and other Maharishi-related crap), other scuffles within the band, etc., were contributing factors to Carl's early demise as well.

[Lonely Summer]

Just to chip in my two cents as a fan...

Carl's death devastated me, like many of you. Two things also floated through my head: 1) I had seen the Beach Boys in the summer of 1996 for the first time (and, except for C50, the ONLY time), and I recall being very pleasantly surprised after all I heard about the tackiness of the cheerleaders (turns out they had just stopped using them!), Mike's 20-year-old scripted dialog (as a first-timer, it actually sounded fresh to my ears), and overall..just the ENERGY that came from that stage...the musical energy, that is (not PERSONAL energy -- let's face it, it was just five guy standing in one place and singing and strumming and not doing anything else)...and when I heard of Carl's death, I thought: I'll never experience that energy again; and 2) please, please, PLEEEEEEEASE, if Mike continues touring, do NOT call it "The Beach Boys." No Wilsons = no Beach Boys, period. That's how I felt then, that's how I felt now, PERIOD. I don't care what the BRI lawyers say -- one original Beach Boy plus a non-original two-time Beach Boy and a bunch of "Who??" are NOT "The Beach Boys." To me, that's like Paul McCartney and Jimmy Nichol getting together with two unknown guitarists and calling themselves "The Beatles."

Now...someone had asked about the paucity of visual documentation of the 1997 tour. I'm sure I mentioned it before, but in the concert book that came out not too long ago, there is a picture of Carl onstage from 1997 (I think from Rosemont, IL) -- and if you didn't know it was Carl, you'd never know there was anything wrong...just looks like some guy, you know? But...some years ago I was at someone's apartment and a friend was showing audience video of one of the '97 shows, specifically "Sail On, Sailor" with special guest Blondie Chaplin. Carl was sitting down and playing guitar. Other than that, I didn't find anything unusual. his head might have been a little puffier than normal, but there was no question that it was the Carl we all know and love, and he had a huge smile on his face from ear to ear...heck, I might have been GIVEN that tape; I'll have to check...the only other things I've seen were from camcorder footage taken from FAR back, so far that you couldn't really make out who was who.

But what I'm questioning is not the quasi-sudden lack of pictures and video from the 1997 tour...it's the lack of ANYTHING about Carl. It just occurs to me that we don't really know a heck of a lot about the guy, and if there's one Beach Boy we probably WOULD want to know about, it'd definitely be Carl. From all I gather, he was the one with the clear head and was able to keep his sh*t together amidst all the problems the band had. (And by his own admission, the amount of scandal and other problems that had gotten out about the Beach Boys didn't even scratch the surface.) What kept him level-headed? What was he all about? What made him tick?

Yeah, you can blame the smoking (and as a vehement anti-tobacco guy I certainly do, especially after hearing from someone who [says he] worked with the Beach Boys for a long time that Carl kept smoking almost until his dying day), but I firmly believe that simply being not just a Beach Boy but the Wilson brother who had to keep it all together, dealing with Dennis's addictions and violent outbursts, dealing with Brian's problems, (and think about how many times Carl's phone rang and he wondered if it was finally going to be the dreaded message that Brian or Dennis finally was no more), the times Mike would cause trouble with the band (often related to fasting and other Maharishi-related crap), other scuffles within the band, etc., were contributing factors to Carl's early demise as well.

The experts here will correct me if I'm wrong, but I was told that Carl stopped smoking sometime in the 80's. As far as learning much about the guy, the best thing out there is Billy Hinsche's DVD "Carl Wilson: Here and Now". Lots of stories about the man and the musician from family and friends. Sure wish someone would write a book about him, though. One of the reasons we never learned a lot about him is that even when he was giving interviews, so many of the questions were about Brian. I agree that being the Wilson brother who kept it all together took it's toll on Carl. And the Beach Boys have not been the Beach Boys - to me - since his passing.

[Pretty Funky]

This just turned up on youtube. Carl Wilson fighting illness but still singing like only he could. 1997.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUiWjUYUhOg

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Carl was one of a kind.  I did not know him, but was grateful for having met him.

Is there anyone anywhere not grateful for having met Carl

Not me, that's for sure. Met him on numerous occasions and what a warm, kind, COURTEOUS, man he was. Seemed he always made time to talk to people-at least that's the way he made you feel. Brian , too.

[Lee Marshall]

I looked up the date because I wanted to get it right.  The Beach Boys played the Borrough of York Stadium June 26, 1971.  Alice Cooper, Lighthouse, Steppenwolf, Bread , Blood Rock were also part of it.  Steppenwolf closed it.  The Beach Boys played during the afternoon.  I had backstage access due to being involved with a small high school based promotions company we called 'Magic Bus'.  Cymba [or maybe it was spelled Cimba...] was the promoting company for this show and we had a good relationship with them.  They'd go on to become CPI...Concert Productions International.  They were HUGE.

As the boys wrapped up their portion of the show I waited at the bottom of the stairs leading off of the stage for Carl.  As he reached me I asked him how Brian was.  He replied that Brian was doing OK and that they had hopes that he might be rejoining them again a little further along the path.  Then I asked him what David was up to and was he still in contact with him?   That was the question he wanted to answer.  He and Dave were pretty good buddies and I guess Carl figured that I must know something about something if I was interested to know what was happening with their old band-mate, friend and neighbour from across the street.

The guys were staying a bit of a drive away at The old Beverly Hills Motor Inn and the limo was leaving.  Carl said come on with us.  We'll have some lunch and talk.  I didn't have to be asked twice.  I mean I had just wrapped up my high school daze about 2 weeks previous.  [No final exams]  And here I was headin' out for lunch with a guy who, to me, was like a part of my family.  I'd been listening to him and the boys and reading as much as I could about them since the summer of '63.  So in a sense they were always in my home and participating in my life.  I had never stopped listening.  I had everything they'd recorded [even Smiley Smile] and I guess Holland was pretty much recorded and in the can at this point [June/71]

So we went back to the Motor Inn, had a nice leisurely lunch, chatted about various things, Carl introduced me to the rest of the guys, Dennis and Mike were heading out to have some fun and made fun of Carl for being stuck with me, and not too long after that it all wrapped up smoothly and nicely.  Carl asked if there was anything more I wanted to know.  I said no and thanked him.  Then I got up to leave.  He said are you going back to the stadium?  I replied that I was.  Carl then said hold on...I'll get the limo for you.  In no time...there I was being limo'd back to link up with my concert going friends and to enjoy the rest of the night.  I missed Alice Cooper and another act or two.  I didn't care...AT ALL.  I'd really only gone to see and hear the Beach Boys anyway.  What a great day.  That was 43 years ago.  16 months later...while I was still in college...my radio career began.

I saw Carl maybe another 6 or 7 times after that...at various concerts I MC'd in Winnipeg and Toronto.  He was always surrounded by plenty of folks and he was always accomodating.  We spoke of our wee lunch once...I guess it must have been about 12 years later...and he remembered it.  Not the normal routine I guess.  Last time I can remember having direct contact would have been the early 90s during the box set tour.  Carl was a really, REALLY nice man.  He was a sensational talent.  His voice ... was just magnificent.

I'm glad folks care[d] about him.  Carl Wilson was a truly caring person...in every way, shape and form.  

"The smile you send out...