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Author Topic: Mike & Carl in Late 1997 Question/Discussion  (Read 60225 times)
HeyJude
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« on: October 22, 2014, 12:47:03 PM »

Let me preface this by saying I truly intend this as an objective, pseudo-scholarly inquiry/discussion. It’s not a roundabout way to villainize anyone.

I was recently breezing through the Peter Ames Carlin Brian bio recently, and came across the bit discussing the goings-on with the touring band when Carl was ill in 1997, etc. It included a few quotes from a Rolling Stone article from around 1999 that I’ve never been able to track down again (probably a paid subscription to their archives would yield results).

In the quick rundowns of this period, it is usually mentioned that around August of 1997, Carl had to take a break due to his illness. But according to Carlin’s book (and the Rolling Stone article), at some point around this time Mike refused to appear on stage with Carl. The article (this is the portion in the Carlin book) included a quote from Elliott Lott mentioning that Mike didn’t want to appear with Carl out of love, with Lott specifically citing Carl wearing a wig and needing the use of oxygen. That is, Carl was in such bad shape that the implication is he felt it was no longer appropriate for Carl to appear on stage with the group. I’m not even getting into judging that decision/sentiment. What I’m curious about is, is there actually any indication that Carl was forced off the tour at that particular moment (or encouraged by Mike or management to take a break), rather than choosing to take time off? I also realize it’s beyond a moot issue considering Carl’s ultimate fate (so please feel free to avoid responding to this with a “why does it matter?” response). I’m just curious if there was any consternation among the group, and/or Mike and Carl specifically, concerning this.

Were these details simply glossed over or forgotten (by band members or the media or fans for that matter) because of Carl’s ultimate fate?

I believe it was that same old Rolling Stone article (which was published as I recall in relation to the 1999 “Family and Friends” related legal stuff) which was one of the only times it was specifically mentioned that Love also had by 1998 refused to appear on stage with Al Jardine. Most reports have never specifically mentioned whether Al was “kicked out” or he “left” the band, or it was just a mutual thing. It has been implied Al didn’t want to carry on immediately due to Carl’s death. But I believe that article mentioned the idea that Mike had refused to be on stage with Al. Other sources such as the Marks/Stebbins book also paint a clear picture that Al was being edged out in 1997 (while the Carlin book mentions an attempt to get rid of Al all the way back in 1990).

Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 12:48:40 PM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2014, 01:17:53 PM »

 I thought it was said that Carl developed a blood clot, and had to leave the tour for health/medical reasons.
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2014, 01:30:12 PM »

I thought Al said in interview that he wanted to go out soon after Carl's passing on a symphonic and/or PS tour but Brian didn't want to and since Brian didn't want to Mike didn't want to.

Then Mike has said in interview that Al planned to do that tour but replacing him with Peter Cetera. Something like that.
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2014, 01:56:41 PM »

The story, IIRC, is that Brian wanted to do a PS tour with the band but Carl didn't think he could do it. This is in the Carlin book, I believe, and Melinda made special note that it really bummed BW out.
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2014, 02:10:18 PM »

Page 286 of the hardcover edition. Doesn't explicitly say whose idea it was or each guy's vote, but says:

"Carl vetoed an offer ... for the group to play a ten-show tour ... Of Pet Sounds. Brian's elaborate studio arrangements would simply be too hard to play onstage, Carl said. And besides, his big brother would never be able to recreate his own vocals onstage. 'He told me he didn't want to see Brian embarrassed in public, and there was no way Brian would be able to do it,' Melinda says. 'I have never told Brian that. But he picks up on things, you know. No one had to tell him anything.'"
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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2014, 02:20:45 PM »

Let me preface this by saying I truly intend this as an objective, pseudo-scholarly inquiry/discussion. It’s not a roundabout way to villainize anyone.

I was recently breezing through the Peter Ames Carlin Brian bio recently, and came across the bit discussing the goings-on with the touring band when Carl was ill in 1997, etc. It included a few quotes from a Rolling Stone article from around 1999 that I’ve never been able to track down again (probably a paid subscription to their archives would yield results).

In the quick rundowns of this period, it is usually mentioned that around August of 1997, Carl had to take a break due to his illness. But according to Carlin’s book (and the Rolling Stone article), at some point around this time Mike refused to appear on stage with Carl. The article (this is the portion in the Carlin book) included a quote from Elliott Lott mentioning that Mike didn’t want to appear with Carl out of love, with Lott specifically citing Carl wearing a wig and needing the use of oxygen. That is, Carl was in such bad shape that the implication is he felt it was no longer appropriate for Carl to appear on stage with the group. I’m not even getting into judging that decision/sentiment. What I’m curious about is, is there actually any indication that Carl was forced off the tour at that particular moment (or encouraged by Mike or management to take a break), rather than choosing to take time off? I also realize it’s beyond a moot issue considering Carl’s ultimate fate (so please feel free to avoid responding to this with a “why does it matter?” response). I’m just curious if there was any consternation among the group, and/or Mike and Carl specifically, concerning this.

Were these details simply glossed over or forgotten (by band members or the media or fans for that matter) because of Carl’s ultimate fate?

I believe it was that same old Rolling Stone article (which was published as I recall in relation to the 1999 “Family and Friends” related legal stuff) which was one of the only times it was specifically mentioned that Love also had by 1998 refused to appear on stage with Al Jardine. Most reports have never specifically mentioned whether Al was “kicked out” or he “left” the band, or it was just a mutual thing. It has been implied Al didn’t want to carry on immediately due to Carl’s death. But I believe that article mentioned the idea that Mike had refused to be on stage with Al. Other sources such as the Marks/Stebbins book also paint a clear picture that Al was being edged out in 1997 (while the Carlin book mentions an attempt to get rid of Al all the way back in 1990).

Any thoughts?
HeyJude - there are any number of fans who made an effort to see Carl perform after the dreadful media announcement of Carl's diagnosis.  It is rare to see band members as kind as I saw them to Carl.  I saw him in late June.  The show was analogous to a 45 single played as a 33 rpm LP.  It was tailored to Carl, and he sat on a stool and sang as well and powerfully as ever. It defied logic and was one of the most courageous things I've ever seen.  He was saying goodbye to his beloved fans.  And we were witness to something extraordinary.

Frankly, I don't know how Mike mustered the courage to stand up in front of these audiences, day after day, and verify the media stories about Carl's condition.  His voice cracked.  There are plenty of people around who have their own "last concert" story that summer of 97.  By August, he must have had a very deteriorated health status.  It would perfect make sense if he didn't perform. Carl didn't owe us his almost last drop of strength, but he gladly gave it.

The Beach Boys played with Dave Marks in October of '97, and we were asked for prayers and good thoughts for Carl, who was not there at that point.  What the media or an author writes, is of no consequence to me, because I saw what I saw, and will never forget it, as Carl sang God Only Knows for the last time (for me) as well as those lucky others who made their way to get a ticket.  I've spoken to others who had a similar experience but who saw him later that summer when his condition had deteriorated further.  
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2014, 02:49:42 PM »

David Beard and I went to Raleigh, NC to see the Beach Boys on June 13, 1997.  I had other family plans that weekend, but I had a gut feeling that it would be the last time I saw Carl alive.  Carl had a separate dressing room from the other guys, and he and Gina went straight from the dressing room to the stage before the show, and from the stage to the bus after the show, in order to keep Carl from being exposed to any germs.  The most interaction I was able to have with Carl was to shout, "We love you Carl" as he walked off the stage.  Carl played most of the show sitting on a stool, and was visibly wearing a hairpiece, but his voice was still amazing.

Dave and I had the opportunity to interview Bruce after the show.  I asked him how Carl was doing, and his response was, "You'll have to ask him.  I can't get an honest answer."  And Bruce was very candid that night (expressing frustration about the V2/Sean O'Hagan deal falling through among other things), so I think if he had truly known Carl's prognosis he would have shared it.

Lee
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2014, 03:41:58 PM »

One thing about this era of Carl that's always confused me: yes, he'd been obviously wearing a hairpiece for some time... but still had a full beard. Can chemo be that selective ?
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2014, 04:00:15 PM »

One thing about this era of Carl that's always confused me: yes, he'd been obviously wearing a hairpiece for some time... but still had a full beard. Can chemo be that selective ?

yes it can...and to compound things further..what it does to one person, it can do something totally opposite to another, even when on the same drugs and dosage.
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2014, 04:03:44 PM »

Another point I witnessed first hand with a family member. She chose to shave her hair off and wear a wig once it started to fall out, rather than have thin or bits of hair, deciding that would look worse. She kept her eye brows and lashes.
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2014, 04:23:56 PM »

One thing about this era of Carl that's always confused me: yes, he'd been obviously wearing a hairpiece for some time... but still had a full beard. Can chemo be that selective ?

There's a photo from August 1997 in the In Concert book, and Carl's beard looked kind of patchy.
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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2014, 04:37:34 PM »

One thing about this era of Carl that's always confused me: yes, he'd been obviously wearing a hairpiece for some time... but still had a full beard. Can chemo be that selective ?

Having been very close to someone who went through chemo and radiation, it did indeed quickly make the hair on his head fall out, while the beard stayed relatively intact. I remember back then thinking the same thing about Carl, but I found in this case that the exact same thing happened. I don't know if this is the norm, but having spent a lot of time at the infusion clinic talking with many people as they were undergoing their chemo, I found a number of others who had plenty of facial hair but had lost (and/or thus shaved) their head.

As was also mentioned, sometimes the beard will get a bit patchy, or the hair will not fall out but stop growing so rapidly.

What also happens with head hair is that it starts coming out in large amounts, but it doesn't just all fall out at once. One reason some choose to shave their head isn't just because "it's all going to fall out eventually anyway", but because it's like a dog shedding times ten when the hair first starts to fall out. It just falls around everywhere. So it's more convenient to shave the head in some cases.
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2014, 04:39:38 PM »

I thought it was said that Carl developed a blood clot, and had to leave the tour for health/medical reasons.

This and other things may all be true. It just seems extra odd, especially if Carl *did* choose to take the leave of absence, for Elliott Lott to confirm that Mike didn't want to appear on stage with Carl (however justified or not his feelings may have been). That makes it sound like there was a disagreement about it at some point involving somebody. If Carl chose to leave, or was forced to, why would Mike or anyone else need to even express an opinion about whether they felt it was appropriate for Carl to be on stage?
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2014, 04:43:31 PM »

I thought it was said that Carl developed a blood clot, and had to leave the tour for health/medical reasons.

This and other things may all be true. It just seems extra odd, especially if Carl *did* choose to take the leave of absence, for Elliott Lott to confirm that Mike didn't want to appear on stage with Carl (however justified or not his feelings may have been). That makes it sound like there was a disagreement about it at some point involving somebody. If Carl chose to leave, or was forced to, why would Mike or anyone else need to even express an opinion about whether they felt it was appropriate for Carl to be on stage?

Wasn't there a story of Carl showing up backstage at a concert sometime after he left touring for the final time where he looked really bad but told Mike he wished to return touring if his health improved? Maybe Mike was reacting to that.
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2014, 04:43:58 PM »

 What the media or an author writes, is of no consequence to me, because I saw what I saw, and will never forget it, as Carl sang God Only Knows for the last time (for me) as well as those lucky others who made their way to get a ticket.  I've spoken to others who had a similar experience but who saw him later that summer when his condition had deteriorated further.  


It all doesn't matter at all in light of what happened with Carl, of course. But I'm just trying to get the sequence of events down historically, thus my previous mentioning of trying to avoid the "why does it matter?" commentary. It only matters when mapping out the band's timeline and history. It doesn't matter and has no relation to how we feel personally about Carl or his voice or his music.

In any event, I'm not talking about the media or an author. The manager of the group, Elliott Lott, said back around 1999 that Mike had let it be known that he didn't want to appear on stage with Carl. I'm just curious what that was all about. It seems an odd thing to not only mention, but elaborate on to the media, especially if it had no consequence.
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2014, 04:50:01 PM »

I thought it was said that Carl developed a blood clot, and had to leave the tour for health/medical reasons.

This and other things may all be true. It just seems extra odd, especially if Carl *did* choose to take the leave of absence, for Elliott Lott to confirm that Mike didn't want to appear on stage with Carl (however justified or not his feelings may have been). That makes it sound like there was a disagreement about it at some point involving somebody. If Carl chose to leave, or was forced to, why would Mike or anyone else need to even express an opinion about whether they felt it was appropriate for Carl to be on stage?

Seems like another instance of Mike trying to appear like a great human being   


What the media or an author writes, is of no consequence to me, because I saw what I saw, and will never forget it, as Carl sang God Only Knows for the last time (for me) as well as those lucky others who made their way to get a ticket.  I've spoken to others who had a similar experience but who saw him later that summer when his condition had deteriorated further. 


It all doesn't matter at all in light of what happened with Carl, of course. But I'm just trying to get the sequence of events down historically, thus my previous mentioning of trying to avoid the "why does it matter?" commentary. It only matters when mapping out the band's timeline and history. It doesn't matter and has no relation to how we feel personally about Carl or his voice or his music.

In any event, I'm not talking about the media or an author. The manager of the group, Elliott Lott, said back around 1999 that Mike had let it be known that he didn't want to appear on stage with Carl. I'm just curious what that was all about. It seems an odd thing to not only mention, but elaborate on to the media, especially if it had no consequence.

are you certain the Lott article was in RS?  I spoke to a collector that couldn't find anything similar in 1999 RS's. 
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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2014, 04:57:45 PM »

Have an ill Carl on stage was probably too much of a downer for Mike's positively jukebox. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2014, 04:58:13 PM »


are you certain the Lott article was in RS?  I spoke to a collector that couldn't find anything similar in 1999 RS's.  

I remember it was a Rolling Stone online article that included the quotes from Elliott Lott. It may well be that those comments came from somewhere else, and both Rolling Stone and later Carlin pulled it from that (or some other) source.

But I strongly remember printing out a Rolling Stone website article from 1999 (or perhaps 2000, since it reported on the later 1999 injunctions against Al and whatnot) that featured the comments. I remember as well that Carlin's book was the first time I saw those comments after having read that article several years prior.
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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2014, 05:16:38 PM »

I have relayed this story on this board before, but will again because it seems appropriate for the thread. For reasons that are not relevant to get into, I was EXTREMELEY lucky and fortunate on August 3, 1997 to see the Beach Boys in Devore, CA and actually rode on their tour bus for about 100 yards.  I say this not to brag in any way because I am in fact a nobody.  It just happened as a complete fluke but because it did I can relay how Carl appeared that day. I sat across the bus aisle from him and Gina and spoke with him briefly on the bus and as we exited. Hairpiece--yes; full beard as always. He had his own dressing room that night which was different than in years past when he and Al would share. He was extremely bloated from his treatment.  There was no sign of oxygen on the bus, backstage or on the stage at any time during the concert. He was on a stool for almost the entire show. If you were to listen to only an audio taping of this show, you would have no idea anything was amiss with Carl except for the announcement that he was battling cancer and his welcoming of his doctors in the audience that night. He sang lead on all of his usual songs--GOK, WIBN, Darlin', GV and absolutely sang the sh*t out of SOS. As with others on this board who saw him that year, it was a lasting memory.
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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2014, 05:38:24 PM »

While I haven't been immersed in what has popped up in the most recent years, I've always thought it was odd that very little "circulates" among collectors as far as audio or video from the 1997 tour. I dunno if tapers just became bored because by the mid-late 90's the setlist was pretty stale, or what.

Anybody know what circulates from 1997? I recall very little. There are a few quick videos on Youtube (and I think even those are mostly from after Dave rejoined).
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« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2014, 05:52:21 PM »


are you certain the Lott article was in RS?  I spoke to a collector that couldn't find anything similar in 1999 RS's.  

I remember it was a Rolling Stone online article that included the quotes from Elliott Lott. It may well be that those comments came from somewhere else, and both Rolling Stone and later Carlin pulled it from that (or some other) source.

But I strongly remember printing out a Rolling Stone website article from 1999 (or perhaps 2000, since it reported on the later 1999 injunctions against Al and whatnot) that featured the comments. I remember as well that Carlin's book was the first time I saw those comments after having read that article several years prior.

Searching, I pulled up these 3 quotes from the article, evidently featured at Rollingstone.com on 12/10/99, from the old site  rec.music.artists.beach-boys: 

<<
"Mike is the Beach Boys," said BRI [Brother Records] attorney Michael Flynn.
"He sang and wrote many of the original songs, and is recognizable to
audiences as the band's leader. To have Al out there touring as the Beach
Boys dilutes the trademark, but worst of all it confuses the public."
Jardine's lawyer, Vincent Chieffo, counters, "Alan is as much of a Beach Boy
as Mike, and it is deceptive for Mike to represent himself as 'The Beach
Boys.' Mike is touring as he has for years, but is keeping the profits once
claimed by Carl and Alan for himself."
>>
<<
 Jardine's inability to convince either Brian Wilson or Carl Wilson's
estate -- the other shareholders -- to vote with him cripples his position
(to convince either would bring about a deadlock). According to Flynn, the
Wilsons' position has little to do with family or friendship. "Mike has
maybe five years of touring left, and he generates a lot of income. Having
Al out there threatens this income and dilutes the trademark. So the Wilsons
are only protecting their own interests." Does this mean that a profit
motive has eclipsed friendship? "I don't think there's been any friendship
there for a while," he said.
  >>
<<
These struggles came to a head in 1997, when Love stated he would not appear
with either Jardine or Carl Wilson. BRI president (and Beach Boys manager)
Elliott Lott acknowledged the line was drawn, but defined it as an example
of tough love. "You need to put this into perspective," he said. "Carl was
very sick. He'd lost his hair and had to wear a wig. He needed oxygen after
every song. Mike didn't want to appear with Carl out of love for him."
>>

Followed by this posting from Derek Bill: 


<<

( quoted text hidden)
....and contains some AMAZING quotes from Mike's attorney, Al's
attroney, Elliott Lott (hope I got the right number of L's and T's in
there). Every time it seems like Mike can't possibly make a bigger ASS
out of himself.....he does.

So, Mike didn't want to go on stage with Carl toward the end, because
Carl was wearing a wig? This from a man who blinds birds when he takes
off his hat?


Derek
>>
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« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2014, 05:53:20 PM »

A funny thing happened 5-7 years ago on one of these BB sites. A link was posted for some pictures of one of Car'ls last shows but 3 times when I clicked on them my computer locked up. Took it as a sign and have avoided any pictures/ video of a sick Carl since.
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« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2014, 05:54:43 PM »

Derek Bill was on the money as ever! Grin
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« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2014, 05:57:58 PM »


are you certain the Lott article was in RS?  I spoke to a collector that couldn't find anything similar in 1999 RS's.  

I remember it was a Rolling Stone online article that included the quotes from Elliott Lott. It may well be that those comments came from somewhere else, and both Rolling Stone and later Carlin pulled it from that (or some other) source.

But I strongly remember printing out a Rolling Stone website article from 1999 (or perhaps 2000, since it reported on the later 1999 injunctions against Al and whatnot) that featured the comments. I remember as well that Carlin's book was the first time I saw those comments after having read that article several years prior.

Searching, I pulled up these 3 quotes from the article, evidently featured at Rollingstone.com on 12/10/99, from the old site  rec.music.artists.beach-boys: 

<<
"Mike is the Beach Boys," said BRI [Brother Records] attorney Michael Flynn.
"He sang and wrote many of the original songs, and is recognizable to
audiences as the band's leader. To have Al out there touring as the Beach
Boys dilutes the trademark, but worst of all it confuses the public."
Jardine's lawyer, Vincent Chieffo, counters, "Alan is as much of a Beach Boy
as Mike, and it is deceptive for Mike to represent himself as 'The Beach
Boys.' Mike is touring as he has for years, but is keeping the profits once
claimed by Carl and Alan for himself."
>>
<<
 Jardine's inability to convince either Brian Wilson or Carl Wilson's
estate -- the other shareholders -- to vote with him cripples his position
(to convince either would bring about a deadlock). According to Flynn, the
Wilsons' position has little to do with family or friendship. "Mike has
maybe five years of touring left, and he generates a lot of income. Having
Al out there threatens this income and dilutes the trademark. So the Wilsons
are only protecting their own interests." Does this mean that a profit
motive has eclipsed friendship? "I don't think there's been any friendship
there for a while," he said.
  >>
<<
These struggles came to a head in 1997, when Love stated he would not appear
with either Jardine or Carl Wilson. BRI president (and Beach Boys manager)
Elliott Lott acknowledged the line was drawn, but defined it as an example
of tough love. "You need to put this into perspective," he said. "Carl was
very sick. He'd lost his hair and had to wear a wig. He needed oxygen after
every song. Mike didn't want to appear with Carl out of love for him."
>>

Followed by this posting from Derek Bill: 


<<

( quoted text hidden)
....and contains some AMAZING quotes from Mike's attorney, Al's
attroney, Elliott Lott (hope I got the right number of L's and T's in
there). Every time it seems like Mike can't possibly make a bigger ASS
out of himself.....he does.

So, Mike didn't want to go on stage with Carl toward the end, because
Carl was wearing a wig? This from a man who blinds birds when he takes
off his hat?


Derek
>>

That's the article! The other bit that I remember that is of course pretty ironic is the lawyer's assertion that, in 1999, Mike had only "maybe five years of touring left."
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« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2014, 05:58:29 PM »

I downloaded one of the '97 shows with Carl a few years back. From what I recall, you truly can't hear any difference in his vocals. He was amazing right up until the end.
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