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Author Topic: Harmony is my Achilles Heel  (Read 6780 times)
Chocolate Shake Man
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« on: October 22, 2014, 08:20:21 AM »

I have to reveal a major flaw: I can’t do or figure out harmony. I have been playing music since I was about sixteen – meaning, roughly eighteen years. I’ve always loved listening to vocal harmony, as should be obvious by my participation on this board. My favourite vocal harmony sounds consist of The Beach Boys, The Beatles, the Motown harmony bands, The Bee Gees, The Hollies, and many many others.

The problem is, I repeat, I can’t figure it out. Can I sing along to something in harmony? Oh dear God, no, I can’t do that. Can I pick out what the harmony part is in a song? Are you kidding?

Occasionally, if I’m recording a track, I can mute the lead vocal and sing the part using different notes, and by miracle, it works. But that’s only if the part I’m singing has two or three notes. Anything beyond that and I’m in big trouble.

I understand that it’s all basic chords and everything. And sure, I could layer my voice to, say, make a G. But once it gets to the point of creating a harmony over a moving melody, I…well, let’s just say, I’m crap.

There’s basic things that I just don’t understand. Like, on Neil Young’s Pocahontas, Neil provides a back-up harmony part in the second half of the song but it is done in a way that you hardly realize there’s a second-vocal there. And it’s not as if the main melody is double-tracked. It’s not that. It’s a harmony part, but it doesn’t come across as a two-part in the same was as If I Fell does by The Beatles or Cathy’s Clown by the Everly’s. Is it just because both vocals are Neil’s or are their some ways of doing harmony that beef up the main vocal rather than add a distinct counter melody? Another example of this is the final chorus in Oasis’s Don’t Look Back in Anger. It sounds like there’s a whole group of people singing the chorus along with Noel’s lead – but it doesn’t sound like they’re singing the same part. And how about back-up vocals? Take The Miracles’ Mickey’s Monkey – when the back-up singers are repeating Smokey’s part, are they doing it in harmony or are they singing in unison?

Good God – why can’t I understand?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 08:27:36 AM by rockandroll » Logged
the captain
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2014, 08:24:34 AM »

I am not good for much in this world, but I can help with this. After work I'll write up as clear a description as I can, using your examples.
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2014, 08:26:25 AM »

I am not good for much in this world, but I can help with this. After work I'll write up as clear a description as I can, using your examples.

You are a golden God. Thank you.
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2014, 09:07:20 AM »

I can't transcribe and analyze the specific examples beyond the surface, but I'd like to offer the nuts and bolts of harmony in general, and how some of these parts are created. If you have access to a keyboard, you can play and hear these, and see how it comes together.

Start with the C major scale, on piano all the white keys. That is the foundation for all chord structures and possible harmonies in that key, and you can move it anywhere into other keys and it's the same foundation.

It's all based on intervals. Harmony parts are most commonly based on the interval of a third, either a major third or minor third based on the chord of the moment.

Number each note of that C major scale as follows: C=1, D=2, E=3, F=4, G=5, A=6, B=7, C=8. On the keyboard start in the middle range: the interval of a 3rd doesn't not ring as clear or sound as good in the lower bass registers.

So you have an octave in C, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8.

If you play the note C along with the note E, you are playing a major third interval. Play each of the white keys two at a time going up that scale we just outlined. It would be C+E, D+F, E+G, F+A, G+B, etc.

Note that your lower note is playing the C scale, and the higher note is playing the same notes of the C scale, only starting on "E", or the 3rd degree (note) of that C scale.

You're playing and hearing a C major scale harmonized in thirds. If you add the "5th" note into those clusters, as in C=1, E=3, G=5, now you have a C triad, which is the C major chord spelled C-E-G. If you move *that* up the same C scale pattern we just played, you're playing all of the chords (in their basic triad forms, root position) going up the scale. It would be CEG, DFA, EGB, FAC, GBD, etc. Those triads are the chords which make up the C major scale, as in C major, D minor, E minor, F major, etc. You are harmonizing the C major scale using the available triads.

How does adding a vocal harmony or anything of the sort figure into all of that?

Let's say your own melody has these notes: C G D E F G C in any rhythm you choose.

The most basic way to add a harmony line on top of your melody would be to find the "3rd" above each of your melody's notes, and sing along with it. That would be this: C (the third would be E), G (the third would be B), D (the third would be F) and so on.

Now your melody which is C G D E F G C is being supported by a harmony line on top, voiced entirely in thirds, which looks like this: E B F G A B E

If you want a two-part harmony to harmonize your original melody, you would follow the formula and add the "5th" above your existing root and 3rd degree notes, and you'll harmonize that melody line with both the 3rd and the 5th above *each scale note*, and that now creates a triad, which creates a full chord sound.

And that's the same principle of harmony used by everyone from Bach to our own Brian Wilson!  Grin

It's basically stacking a harmony part, using intervals and based on the principles of both scales and chord construction, as outlined using that C major example above.

Definitely try it on C major on a keyboard, it lays it out very neatly and without getting into key signatures and accidentals and different keys and all of that, it lays the foundation for everything you hear on those records.

Unfortunately it is not that simple, and to go in depth would take a few chapters more...but to start, think about every note of your melody and try to find that "third above" to give a basic example of how these parts are created. Then consider a "third above" equals a "sixth below", so if you want a starting note on a harmony voice underneath any given melody note, count our C major scale down by 6 degrees, and you'll get the same note underneath your lead note. That's some of what you hear Lennon singing underneath McCartney's high lead on If I Fell.

The Neil Young tune, he's singing his version of the "third above" harmony but it's mixed low so it's only supporting his main melody.

Mickey's Monkey, the backgrounds are "answering" Smokey's lead in unison, but they sound more full because the male voices are an octave lower than the high female voice, so you're getting the same note sung across two octaves. No harmony per se, just octaves.

And when harmonizing a part, keep in mind that a root and 5th combination minus the third will create the "Gregorian Chant" effect, or the sound of a power chord on guitar. *That* effect can sound great in the bass ranges, when supporting the 3rds in middle or upper voicings, but it's not as "sweet" when done in two-part harmony.

That's a ton of stuff...but playing it on the keyboard and hearing these intervals helps the understanding of the mechanics behind this, and the "3rd" is the most basic and probably most effective way to start harmonizing a melody. Beyond that, it gets deeper into music theory, again worthy of a few more chapters.  Wink
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2014, 09:14:37 AM »

Almost forgot: Chord structure using intervals. Major: Root - major third - 5th.  Minor: Root - minor third - 5th. That means a C major would be C - E - G, and a C minor would be C - E flat - G. The major third versus minor third interval played above the root defines the major versus minor chord and sound. So if your chord underneath the melody is C minor, your melody or your harmony note should never be "E" but instead be an E flat, in order to fit the harmony, and vice versa. You would not sing a harmony of an E flat above a C if your chord is C major, it would clash. (and not in a good way)
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the captain
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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2014, 09:24:27 AM »

I still plan to do something customized based on your specific examples and questions, but in case it helps, this is a link that will allow you to download a pdf of a quick intro to music theory I did a few months ago. You might find it somewhat useful.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/3n9v9o
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2014, 09:27:25 AM »

I knew I came to the right place.

Thanks to Guitarfool for your astonishingly helpful descriptions and tips. And thanks again to The Captain for his ongoing help!
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2014, 09:46:06 AM »

Trying to find a practical example you can hear and try as well, I found a Beatles tune where the first line spells it out pretty well. "I'll Be Back":

"You *know*, if you break my heart I'll go" start on the word/note "know". John's notes are: A...A B C C B G A

Paul sings a 3rd above each one of Jon's notes: C...C D E E D B C

Stacked, it looks like this starting on the harmonized word "know":
Paul:  C...C D E E D B C
John:  A...A B C C B G A

Play and try to sing each part, and that outlines the theory from the C major examples above using the same notes. John and Paul are singing a harmony in thirds, in the key of A minor/C major (they're relative keys, which means they share the same notes of the scale).  I only used that phrase because after that, the tonality shifts from "A minor" to "A major", and it gets into changing keys momentarily and the related accidentals like C# and G# to make that change in the song.
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the captain
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2014, 06:49:12 PM »

Having given a quick listen to the Neil Young and Beatles songs you referenced, I hope I can add a little more to the differences in their approaches to harmony.

The Neil Young song, as guitarfool2002 said, takes the most basic and foolproof approach to a harmony line: thirds. To reiterate his point, this just means that whatever key (or maybe across keys if you are more complex, and instead using chords outside the main key) the melody is, the harmony is a third above it. That is, literally two steps up within that key. So C-D-E as melody has E-F-G as harmony, if we're in C major. In A major, that would be A, B, C# and C#, D, E, respectively.

Because it is so solidly within the key, that background can almost blend into the background. You almost don't have to hear those notes to hear those notes, if you know what I mean. Notes can be implied, because you're hearing them by their obviousness. Fifths (the "third" above a third) are notorious in this respect. If you're not raising or flatting a fifth, it almost goes without saying. This is a jazz arrangement trick that avoids muddying up voicings. But the Young tune also does indeed have the harmony mixed low, so as to just supplement almost subconsciously.

The difference between that and "If I Fell" is that the Beatles tune doesn't just follow the melody a third (or any other interval) above. Rather, it is a counterpoint. What that means is that it gets into a whole other kind of harmony that complements the melody. There are formal rules to counterpoint--though I'm pretty sure no Beatle knew them explicitly--that aren't worth getting into. But basically they are things like you don't move two notes the same direction into a perfect interval, you don't use parallel fourths or fifths, etc. I would explain if you cared, but no doubt you don't! Point being, this kind of harmony emphasizes contrary motion (I go up when you go down and vice versa) as well as the kind of similar motion that the aforementioned "thirds" technique uses. If you skip up from C to F, I might go up as well, but from G (the perfect 5th) to A (the major third), or some such thing.

Further, the harmony voice in the Beatles tune is mixed far louder: it is really a presentation of equal voices intended to be heard that way.

As guitarfool2002 mentioned, the Robinson/Miracles "Mickey's Monkey" is really not harmony, but just call-and-response. Singer presents melody, backgrounds repeat it (in octaves, which are kind of harmony, but not really...).

What those three examples show, though, are a diversity of options for harmony vocals: a harmony that follows the melody's contours; a harmony that is contrapuntal to a melody; and background vocals (that might be repetitive, or different altogether than the  melody). The best vocal arrangers find ways to combine elements of all these techniques, even within songs or verses/choruses. Half a line is two parts in thirds, the second half features a counterpoint harmony, and the next line has the harmony in a response or otherwise altogether separate part (a descant, for example).

If you want to learn to write harmonies, the easiest sure thing is to consider your melody, but use the "thirds' technique. It will work every time. The notes in the chord or scale are by definition appropriate to use in the voices just as they are in the guitar or piano parts. But to make interesting parts, I'd recommend playing around with the other aspects mentioned above, either individually or combined.

This might have been nonsense, and not knowing what if any theory you have, I did avoid a lot of terminology. I'd be glad to chat on- or offline to clarify or supplement. I love theory. I'm, uh, really cool...
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« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2014, 05:33:34 AM »

Captain, GF, thank you very much, this has been very helpful for me as well.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2014, 07:18:04 AM »

Captain, thanks so much for that in-depth and helpful response!

I have some work to do!
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the captain
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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2014, 07:47:15 AM »

I love this stuff and would be more than happy to try to tackle any other questions you might have, whether general "big picture" stuff or more specific ones.
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« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2014, 09:04:08 PM »

Harmony.  One of my favorite discoveries was that it doesn't matter.

What I mean is, if I stopped caring and started listening... no -- better than that -- feeling what I wanted.   The notes not only came to me, they never existed prior to.

What I mean is they weren't even notes, just slight variances in pitch.  I'm talking very, very, very small bends in the pitch.

There's notes, guys... that they  don't tell you about.  They're in between the notes that barely exist.

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« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2014, 08:00:34 AM »


What I mean is they weren't even notes, just slight variances in pitch.  I'm talking very, very, very small bends in the pitch.

There's notes, guys... that they  don't tell you about.  They're in between the notes that barely exist.


That should be obvious to anyone who isn't stupid. What western music considers to exist are 12 notes. But those are just points on a continuous line of ascending or descending pitch. A fretless stringed instrument or voice makes that apparent. The whole of blues exists powerfully because of the idea, how it treats thirds and sevenths. Thelonious Monk used to say he played so many minor seconds  (as if flubbing the note) because he was trying to get the note in between the two.

That said, music without harmony is boring as hell to me. My mind just isn't suited for it. Eastern cultures whose musics focus more on that kind of melodic variance just don't interest me, personally.

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« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2014, 08:32:43 AM »

I was going to reply in a more specific way, but I realized the intent of posting that harmony doesn't matter in a thread where someone was genuinely interested in learning more about music theory and harmony in order to apply it in their own musical pursuits served little purpose except to start a debate or something.

I honestly don't get it. But, whatever.

FYI, as one of those "guys" I also studied those notes "in between", the ones they don't tell you about, those microtonal pitches that you hear most often in vocal and string-instrument based music that is non-Western and performed either by vocalists or on continuous pitch instruments. In that context, in those cultural and musical contexts where those notes are heard as part of the threads which create the fabric, they're essential parts of the musical structure.

When I'm mixing, arranging, writing, etc Western-based music, especially popular music, and the singer or instrumentalist is having a hard time with their intonation and is landing "in between" the desired pitch or bending into or out of that target note instead of hitting it dead-on, most often it sounds like utter sh*t. And if they're part of an ensemble, or part of a blend whether in a mix or a live performance with other musicians, and they hit those "in between" notes rather than correctly intonating each of those notes and pitches, they make the entire ensemble or blend sound like utter sh*t.

So why, again, doesn't it matter?  Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2014, 09:01:39 PM »

There's certainly a mathematical and scientific way to look at anything... which is how we wound up with the notes on a piano.  But from the start, as a wee child, I couldn't figure out why I couldn't get the "pain" out of the notes I wanted on the piano -- for example.  To me, it was like an Atari 2600 rendering of what was musically and emotionally capable.  So as a kid I developed a distrust (perhaps a strong way to put it) of musical "systems."

Systems are designed to work for most, but not for what I wanted.

Being creatively-impatient (I'll wait forever, but not when being creative -- important to note!) I became a bad student, gfool.  So I'm not disparaging the "correct" approach.  Just trying to suggest that if anyone was troubled with it, another route may relieve the stress.  If that has any purpose. 

Which I guess it doesn't?   LOL
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« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2014, 09:16:28 PM »


What I mean is they weren't even notes, just slight variances in pitch.  I'm talking very, very, very small bends in the pitch.

There's notes, guys... that they  don't tell you about.  They're in between the notes that barely exist.


That should be obvious to anyone who isn't stupid. What western music considers to exist are 12 notes. But those are just points on a continuous line of ascending or descending pitch. A fretless stringed instrument or voice makes that apparent. The whole of blues exists powerfully because of the idea, how it treats thirds and sevenths. Thelonious Monk used to say he played so many minor seconds  (as if flubbing the note) because he was trying to get the note in between the two.

That said, music without harmony is boring as hell to me. My mind just isn't suited for it. Eastern cultures whose musics focus more on that kind of melodic variance just don't interest me, personally.



The obvious is often overlooked by people who aren't stupid.

But what I'm referring to isn't something I'd call obvious.  People who don't study music, probably aren't stupid, and I'd be surprised if they'd envision there's a comfortable non-note slightly below the note one is playing that could create the illusion of a note somewhere completely else.


As for music without harmony... I just had a thought about that.  Like you, I love harmony... but I also enjoy drone, is it? -- or a rhythmic monotony.  It creates a thick sonic wall -- that contains, I suspect, a lot of harmony, as it contains so many notes.  But I don't know.  I can't tune drums worth a sh-t.  Perhaps, because of this?

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« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2014, 11:19:14 PM »

There are a lot of musicians who are great players, but can't sing harmony worth a $#it - and I have worked with all of them!  Roll Eyes I have tried to teach a few of them the basics - and I'm not the best harmony singer in the world, either - but they just get fed up with it, so  I end up recording the backup parts myself. The few times I have found good harmony singers, it is wonderful.
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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2014, 06:04:25 AM »

GF/Captain:  do you think the ability to sing harmony "from scratch" (not singing along with someone else) can be learned?  If so, surely it would require either hearing it done systematically, or laboriously sitting at a piano (for example) and playing a C while singing an E, or something like that.  Any recommendations as to how to do this, and/or youtube videos where this is being taught?  I can certainly search youtube on my own but I don't want to waste a lot of time on useless videos so I'd prefer a direct target.  What I'm looking for is a way to put into practice what you've already said above.  Until I get this, practically, additional knowledge will not get me any closer to being able to do it, which is the end goal.

If you were giving someone singing lessons, what we you tell that person to do in order to learn/practice singing harmony?

Thanks guys.

Chad
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2014, 06:23:21 AM »

EoL, when you say singing harmony from scratch (but not singing along with someone else), is what you mean having an existing melody to sing along with, but just no other harmony? So in other words, inventing a harmony part where there isn't one?

Yes, you can do that. I think there are two basic ways, both of which would require a certain amount of time and work on the would-be harmonist's part. (There just isn't an easy way. Even people to whom it comes "naturally," in my opinion, put in a lot of time unknowingly through their formative years through listening and their environments.) Which might work best depends on one's learning style.

1. The "books" approach. You can learn music theory. With a basic understanding of theory, and particularly an understanding of counterpoint, you can very easily come up with harmony parts for pop songs. I mean, very easily. They might not be brilliant innovations when you're learning, but getting competent harmony parts is not at all tough with the typical 3-to-6 chord song. There are some simple choices and some basic things to avoid to make harmonies sound good. You don't even need to hear songs to come up with these parts, you could just look at the paper and work it out (fast) by understanding the structure.

2. The "ears" approach. This has the same basic result, but is for those who don't want to look at lined, dotted paper, or think about which notes are in what chords, and which degrees of those chords those notes are, etc. But it requires one really key element: ears. You need to be able to hear not only what notes are consonant (versus dissonant) to the melody you're purportedly harmonizing over, but you need to have good enough pitch to know the difference. (A fourth might be a perfectly acceptable harmony choice, but if you're singing off pitch, you might think it isn't...) Sometimes especially closely voiced harmonies can be really exacting. Space cures many ills. With this idea, you would just play around, maybe just with a phrase or a verse as opposed to the whole song, to find a pitch or two that sound good. Try it on a few extended notes in the melody, not fast-moving passages. Once you get a few notes, you have a starting point. Then you can try to follow the melody, more or less, but from that starting harmony point you established. You can't literally mirror the melody a few pitches up--that would be a key change--but rather follow it more or less diatonically (that is, within the scale/key). This is a trial-and-error method that would be based on your experience with similar styles of music and your ears.

Method 1 above is far, far more exacting and I'd say simpler. It doesn't literally require written music: if you have a guitar or piano handy and know the song, you can simply just identify your melody and the chords, then go from there.

If you think it would help, I can put together some basic counterpoint rules for you.
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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2017, 06:54:18 AM »

If it is all ok, I would like to re-open this topic for discussion.

I will say that I have gotten better at harmony in the 2 and a half years since making this thread but it is still something that I struggle with.

For instance, can anyone tell me what's going on in the chorus of this song that I'm currently trying to cover:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_3oB4wvAX4

First of all, I can't even identify how many vocal parts there are? 3? 4? 4 seem to be singing but are two doubling up? And is the harmony just basic 3rds or is something else happening because every time I try to emulate it, it never works.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Hope this is just a start of a longer conversation that will eventually help me understand.
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2017, 07:28:57 AM »

It's a little noisy and the vocals, with several guys singing, are a bit tricky to hear perfectly--there could be bits that are being sung that sound implied, or vice versa. But I think it's pretty simple. The melody is being doubled in octaves, with a harmony basically a third below. Someone more familiar with the song could probably be more accurate.

Chord: Eb       F-            Ab                 Eb           F-           Bb    Eb
Note:   Bb       C    Eb     F      Eb F  Eb  G  G       C     Eb    D  F  Eb
Harm.  G        Ab   Ab     C     Bb C  Bb  Eb Eb     C     C      Bb(Ab?)Bb
Word:  Let's    go   for a  walk up on the water     First one follow me

Funny little dance steps on the hits after "water," btw.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2017, 08:12:29 AM »

It's a little noisy and the vocals, with several guys singing, are a bit tricky to hear perfectly--there could be bits that are being sung that sound implied, or vice versa. But I think it's pretty simple. The melody is being doubled in octaves, with a harmony basically a third below. Someone more familiar with the song could probably be more accurate.

Chord: Eb       F-            Ab                 Eb           F-           Bb    Eb
Note:   Bb       C    Eb     F      Eb F  Eb  G  G       C     Eb    D  F  Eb
Harm.  G        Ab   Ab     C     Bb C  Bb  Eb Eb     C     C      Bb(Ab?)Bb
Word:  Let's    go   for a  walk up on the water     First one follow me

Funny little dance steps on the hits after "water," btw.

Thank you so much! I will try it out and see if I can make it work.

Any chance you could chart out the dance move?  Smiley
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