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Author Topic: Damn, I miss it being C50  (Read 35038 times)
Cam Mott
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« Reply #125 on: October 18, 2014, 04:29:47 PM »

I have not read all of this thread but 2012 was an anniversary of the group and this year's is an anniversary of a song and so not comparable or contradictory imo.
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« Reply #126 on: October 18, 2014, 05:10:19 PM »

I like what Sheriff is saying.
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« Reply #127 on: October 18, 2014, 05:29:22 PM »

Mikie's not telling anybody what or what not to do or y or talk about.  He's only pointing out how some of this gets grandly tiresome after a year or two.  Or three.  Or four. But then again I've been fielding that complaint about me at home for decades, so we learn to live with it, I guess.

Exactly.  Go Giants!

To Kansas City, as it turns out.  I was just looking yesterday at some BB concert photos I took at Candlestick in 1983, and the team the Giants beat that day was: The Cardinals. Giants baseball, Beach Boys, all good.

I was at that '83 Giants/Beach Boys show at Candlestick. Hard to believe they just closed that venue.

Yeah, Norm, the Giants knocked out the Pirates who were tough, the Nationals who were also real tough, then the Cards who were even tougher!!  And we're in the WS!!!!  Can ya believe it? Thank God for Wildcards in post season, eh? 2010, 2012, and now 2014. Bruce Bochy is in the Hall for sure.
Yes, that was a Great show - wish they would have let us on the field.  Maybe if I had brought a cheerleader outfit...  I think that was the first time they had the cheerleaders out front.  Soon they would be on the stage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't they doing all those $5 shows (including one with CSN) because the Giants couldn't fill the seats?  I couldn't believe they kept doing it, a really great deal.  I was at all of them.  1983 being the Best.  Carl was rockin' out, and seemed happy to be there.  I thought Brian and Dennis both did very well - the last time with all the brothers together for me.

Not a put down, I'm for the Giants to win, just sayin'.

Yeah, feelflows, you were living around Santa Cruz at the time, weren't you? I think there was a Napa Fairgrounds show that year then they went down to L.A. or Ontario and that's the last you saw of Dennis in concert. There were a few Beach Boys/Baseball shows around that time (one of them Seattle I believe) and that was a good marketing ploy by both the baseball club management and The Beach Boys to draw more people to the ballpark. Still have my blue Beach Boys hat from the Candlestick show.
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I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what she’s like, and I can feel how right she’d be for me. It’s weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what she’s picking up from me. I hope it’s good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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« Reply #128 on: October 18, 2014, 05:32:20 PM »

Just for the fun of seeing what their posts would look like, for one day only, perhaps Halloween, I think it would be cool to require bgas and guitarfool2002 to flip word counts.  On that one day, all posts from bgas would be required to be a minimum of 2500 words in length, and all posts from guitarfool2002 would be required to not exceed 50 words in length.

That's funny!  Grin  Although the one or two-liners from Guitarfool would have to be smart-ass remarks (affectionately called zingers)!
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I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what she’s like, and I can feel how right she’d be for me. It’s weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what she’s picking up from me. I hope it’s good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
Nicko1234
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« Reply #129 on: October 18, 2014, 06:18:59 PM »


Nicko - if you honestly think that the various possibilities of what could eventually happen weren't meticulously ported over by Mike and his lawyers, I'd imagine that you are mistaken. If you disagree with that, I'm all ears to hear why.

 I'm not saying that my hypothesis is absolutely correct, but I also don't think it's too far-fetched either. There was lots of scheming going on, I'm sure. And by scheming, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm trying to say it was ill-intentions by Mike, but Mike is obviously extremely protective of not letting go of what he feels he has rightly earned (the right to tour as "The BBs"), and I don't doubt that it's *possible* that if he/his lawyers could have thought that by Al saying a few choice words at a certain point in time, it would help make a case for there being a precedent that could make things go in his favor in case they ever needed that.

Mike likes his escape hatches, and this *could* possibly have been an attempt at another one.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think this is out of the question. Let's face it: it could ONLY have been beneficial to Mike for Al to say those words, right? I would think it less desirable for Al, having many times over the years hinted at a desire to regularly be back to playing with the BBs (or similar capacity) to have *happily* said such words, while Mike (who clearly is mighty happy being in control of the M&B show) would have every reason to be happy to see such words being publicly spoken by Al. Please correct me if I'm off-base on this.

If you believe that Mike from the onset has always desired an end date (as I believe you do), and if you believe that Mike has some savvy lawyers (as you probably do, and as Al does), then I don't think it's an implausible scenario worthy of an eye roll emoji.  Smiley I also suspect that the TSS/C50 promo clips (especially the TSS ones) were highly vetted for content beforehand. I think it's a no-brainer to assume these were highly crafted to avoid certain politics/topics, and probably had lawyers/PR people's opinions peripherally involved. I feel certain that some things were not allowed to be discussed (for political gain), and therefore it's really not a stretch to think that some things were specifically said as well (for potential down-the-road political gain too).

I think the truth is a little simpler...

The C50 tour was arranged as a separate entity from Mike`s license. Mike knew when it was arranged that he would absolutely have the right to tour as The Beach Boys again at a specific point in time and this is exactly how it proved. Bruce was saying from very early on in the tour that they had to be finished by a certain date after all... If Mike hadn`t known this then he obviously wouldn`t have been interested in the C50 tour at all as it would have made no business sense.

Now Al`s comment has no impact legally whatsoever. Did it mean, as someone earlier asked, that the C50 tour couldn`t have been extended? No and it was. Did it mean that the tour couldn`t have been extended further? In no way, shape or form.

Could Al`s comment have had any legal impact in October 2012 if BRI had taken a majority vote that Mike should lose his license? Not a chance in Hell. Al`s comment has literally no connection with whether Mike should hold a license or not. None. They are not even vaguely related.

Mike didn`t need to, `create a trail of legal breadcrumbs` at all as the situation is cut and dried. Until BRI vote to get rid of his license Mike can tour as `The Beach Boys`. And it really wouldn`t make any financial sense for Carl`s estate to vote against him as they are getting money for nothing...

(Al`s comment certainly works more as a `see us now while you can` tempter though which is obviously what that promo was all about)

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« Reply #130 on: October 18, 2014, 06:42:48 PM »

There are similar cases with some very familiar rock bands and artists, I don't like to compare but I'm curious to know the reactions and opinions among their fans just the same. How about Roger Waters - The guy staged his own "The Wall" events, played the Floyd music at his shows while still doing his own solo material, and the fans came to see him. At the same time, there was Gilmour and the other Floyd bandmates touring and releasing music as Pink Floyd, along with Gilmour doing his own solo projects, and the fans came to see him (and them) too. Now in 2014 there was just a bunch of hype around a "new" Pink Floyd release, and it's basically warmed-over vault material that's not really new in any sense of the word, and Waters and Gilmour are still polar opposites in terms of getting back together as Pink Floyd. How are fans taking that situation, or how did they take "The Wall" being staged as a Roger Waters presentation when everyone knows it as a Pink Floyd production?

How about The Doors? I'm asking because I really have no clue what's been happening since Ray passed away. I know Robbie has made some appearances as "of the Doors" or "original Doors guitarist", and I know for years there were disputes and legal challenges around Densmore using The Doors name for his projects, but where does it stand in 2014 now that Ray is gone?


As for Pink Floyd, when Gilmour, Mason and Wright won the legal battle against Waters to use the name Pink Floyd there was (and continues to be) some animosity toward a Gilmour-led Floyd. The Pink Floyd tour easily outsold Roger Waters' tour and the bickering between the two camps continued until they reunited in 2008. Waters and Gilmour actually get along these days. Waters wanted to reform the band a few years ago but Gilmour said no. There's not much negative fan reaction this time around because nearly all the fans understand this new record is a collection of music written by the late Rick Wright around 1994 and finished off by Gilmour and Mason as a tribute to him. Waters wasn't invited to participate because he wasn't on the original 1994 material. There won't be a tour, no further projects and Pink Floyd don't actually exist anymore.  

I've never heard of any confusion among fans regarding seeing the Gilmour-led Pink Floyd in concert in 1987 and 1994 and seeing Roger Waters performing "Dark Side Of The Moon" and "The Wall" in concert. Pink Floyd are a bigger act than The Beach Boys and the individual members have way more name recognition than the Beach Boys do.  

The Doors situation was a different story and I think you've got it the wrong way around. Densmore sued Manzarek and Krieger over touring with the name "The Doors of The 21st Century". He claimed fans would be confused and think they were seeing The Doors (sounds like Mike's argument about "The Beach Boys Family and Friends", doesn't it?). Densmore won that court battle even though I think it was petty myself. Considering Jim Morrison casts such a long shadow and is (presumably lol) dead, I doubt fans were turning up to gigs expecting to see him. Manzarek and Krieger had to call themselves "Riders On The Storm" instead. It wound up not affecting ticket sales at all. Densmore never toured as The Doors and hasn't actively played live with anybody in years.

I think the obsession on this board over the touring entity called "The Beach Boys" is a bit overblown. It seems to hinge on this idea that there are poor misguided souls out there who are going to feel cheated if they go to a Mike & Bruce show and Brian's not there. It would seem that the audience who pack in for a Mike & Bruce show either don't care or know they're at least getting two (possibly three) members from the 60's. That's more than most heritage acts can boast. Mike & Bruce's audience have been weaned on all those PBS-specials where the old-timers go out there and relive the good times...only it's usually one old-timer and a bunch of replacements or maybe not even one original member at all! I doubt there are people in the audience who are up in arms about who's in the band. They came fort a good time and they got it.
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« Reply #131 on: October 18, 2014, 07:44:59 PM »


Nicko - if you honestly think that the various possibilities of what could eventually happen weren't meticulously ported over by Mike and his lawyers, I'd imagine that you are mistaken. If you disagree with that, I'm all ears to hear why.

 I'm not saying that my hypothesis is absolutely correct, but I also don't think it's too far-fetched either. There was lots of scheming going on, I'm sure. And by scheming, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm trying to say it was ill-intentions by Mike, but Mike is obviously extremely protective of not letting go of what he feels he has rightly earned (the right to tour as "The BBs"), and I don't doubt that it's *possible* that if he/his lawyers could have thought that by Al saying a few choice words at a certain point in time, it would help make a case for there being a precedent that could make things go in his favor in case they ever needed that.

Mike likes his escape hatches, and this *could* possibly have been an attempt at another one.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think this is out of the question. Let's face it: it could ONLY have been beneficial to Mike for Al to say those words, right? I would think it less desirable for Al, having many times over the years hinted at a desire to regularly be back to playing with the BBs (or similar capacity) to have *happily* said such words, while Mike (who clearly is mighty happy being in control of the M&B show) would have every reason to be happy to see such words being publicly spoken by Al. Please correct me if I'm off-base on this.

If you believe that Mike from the onset has always desired an end date (as I believe you do), and if you believe that Mike has some savvy lawyers (as you probably do, and as Al does), then I don't think it's an implausible scenario worthy of an eye roll emoji.  Smiley I also suspect that the TSS/C50 promo clips (especially the TSS ones) were highly vetted for content beforehand. I think it's a no-brainer to assume these were highly crafted to avoid certain politics/topics, and probably had lawyers/PR people's opinions peripherally involved. I feel certain that some things were not allowed to be discussed (for political gain), and therefore it's really not a stretch to think that some things were specifically said as well (for potential down-the-road political gain too).

I think the truth is a little simpler...

The C50 tour was arranged as a separate entity from Mike`s license. Mike knew when it was arranged that he would absolutely have the right to tour as The Beach Boys again at a specific point in time and this is exactly how it proved. Bruce was saying from very early on in the tour that they had to be finished by a certain date after all... If Mike hadn`t known this then he obviously wouldn`t have been interested in the C50 tour at all as it would have made no business sense.

Now Al`s comment has no impact legally whatsoever. Did it mean, as someone earlier asked, that the C50 tour couldn`t have been extended? No and it was. Did it mean that the tour couldn`t have been extended further? In no way, shape or form.

Could Al`s comment have had any legal impact in October 2012 if BRI had taken a majority vote that Mike should lose his license? Not a chance in Hell. Al`s comment has literally no connection with whether Mike should hold a license or not. None. They are not even vaguely related.

Mike didn`t need to, `create a trail of legal breadcrumbs` at all as the situation is cut and dried. Until BRI vote to get rid of his license Mike can tour as `The Beach Boys`. And it really wouldn`t make any financial sense for Carl`s estate to vote against him as they are getting money for nothing...

(Al`s comment certainly works more as a `see us now while you can` tempter though which is obviously what that promo was all about)


Maybe that's true, and maybe Al's comment would have been 100% worthless in proving anything legally if things had come to that. I'm no lawyer, but I'd think that the comment certainly wouldn't have *hurt* Mike's case in the event that his lawyers would have ever attempted to use it. Remember, Mike's suit against Brian around the BWPS time was rejected by the courts; I don't put straw-grabs past him or his legal team.  
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 07:48:56 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #132 on: October 18, 2014, 11:36:25 PM »

The C50 tour was arranged as a separate entity from Mike`s license.

... but not as a stand-alone event.

Quote
Mike knew when it was arranged that he would absolutely have the right to tour as The Beach Boys again at a specific point in time and this is exactly how it proved. Bruce was saying from very early on in the tour that they had to be finished by a certain date after all...

Indeed. And that date was changed, at least once.
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« Reply #133 on: October 19, 2014, 12:06:50 PM »

what is the sound of one hand clapping?

"pat pat". Try it. Grin
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« Reply #134 on: October 19, 2014, 10:56:47 PM »

There are similar cases with some very familiar rock bands and artists, I don't like to compare but I'm curious to know the reactions and opinions among their fans just the same. How about Roger Waters - The guy staged his own "The Wall" events, played the Floyd music at his shows while still doing his own solo material, and the fans came to see him. At the same time, there was Gilmour and the other Floyd bandmates touring and releasing music as Pink Floyd, along with Gilmour doing his own solo projects, and the fans came to see him (and them) too. Now in 2014 there was just a bunch of hype around a "new" Pink Floyd release, and it's basically warmed-over vault material that's not really new in any sense of the word, and Waters and Gilmour are still polar opposites in terms of getting back together as Pink Floyd. How are fans taking that situation, or how did they take "The Wall" being staged as a Roger Waters presentation when everyone knows it as a Pink Floyd production?

How about The Doors? I'm asking because I really have no clue what's been happening since Ray passed away. I know Robbie has made some appearances as "of the Doors" or "original Doors guitarist", and I know for years there were disputes and legal challenges around Densmore using The Doors name for his projects, but where does it stand in 2014 now that Ray is gone?


The Doors situation was a different story and I think you've got it the wrong way around. Densmore sued Manzarek and Krieger over touring with the name "The Doors of The 21st Century". He claimed fans would be confused and think they were seeing The Doors (sounds like Mike's argument about "The Beach Boys Family and Friends", doesn't it?). Densmore won that court battle even though I think it was petty myself. Considering Jim Morrison casts such a long shadow and is (presumably lol) dead, I doubt fans were turning up to gigs expecting to see him. Manzarek and Krieger had to call themselves "Riders On The Storm" instead. It wound up not affecting ticket sales at all. Densmore never toured as The Doors and hasn't actively played live with anybody in years.

I may not have worded it the right way but I knew pretty well what the lawsuit(s) were about. I think you may have stated it a bit incorrectly or incompletely above, though. So here are a few period reports from that time. Notice both articles mentioned Densmore was still performing on his own (not as or with The Doors obviously) but at one point had been battling tinnitus, with Ray suggesting that was why he opted out of Ray and Robby's shows, but later Densmore said he wasn't asked to join the group. Hmm.

And another lawsuit (another of a handful back and forth) was over licensing Break On Through for a Cadillac ad.

February 05, 2003 12:00 AM EST

John Densmore, former drummer and co-founder of the Doors, has filed a multiple-count lawsuit against surviving original band members Ray Manzarek and Robert Krieger, among others, Billboard Bulletin reports.

The suit -- filed yesterday (Feb. 4) in Los Angeles Superior Court by Densmore and on behalf of the estates of the late vocalist Jim Morrison and his wife, Pam Courson -- revolves around a new incarnation of the Doors that has performed in recent months. The suit, which seeks unspecified damages, claims that written and oral agreements mandate that the Doors name and logo can be used only by the original band members.

Keyboardist Manzarek and guitarist Krieger have been playing dates as the Doors with Ian Astbury (formerly of the Cult) on vocals and Stewart Copeland (ex-Police) on drums. The group, which performed recently on "The Tonight Show," played the L.A. House of Blues on Jan. 31 and is scheduled to play Universal Amphitheatre on Friday.

Manzarek told Billboard.com in September that Densmore had opted out of the tour because he was suffering from tinnitus (a ringing in the ears). However, the drummer said in an interview yesterday with the Hollywood Reporter that he has fully recovered and will be performing live Saturday for a public school district benefit.

"I'm troubled by one guy singing the whole night," Densmore said. "There are Doors cover bands in every city; we shouldn't join that, should we? No disrespect to Ian Astbury or Stewart Copeland; they are wonderful musicians. But my point is they are not the Doors."

Manzarek countered in an interview with Reuters that Densmore's suit was "frivolous," and that he and Krieger were billing themselves as "the Doors, 21st Century." In fact, Densmore said he found out that Astbury and Copeland were going to tour as the Doors from an article in Billboard. "I thought, 'Oh, OK, I'm fired in the paper,'" Densmore said. "I called Robby and said, 'Robby, you've got to change the name, please.'"

Even though his ears are back in shape to perform, Densmore said he would not want to play with the group. "Who can fill Jim's leather pants?" he said. "The Doors is John, Jim, Ray, and Robby. It's not Ray, Robby, Stewart, and Ian." Densmore said he's not after money, nor will he try to stop Friday's show. He just wants the band to change the name. "They can call themselves Formerly Members of the Doors or the Hinges or the Windows," he said.

-- Erik Gruenwedel, L.A.





Doors’ Densmore Sues Former Bandmates Over Use Of Group’s Name
Spokesperson for defendants says they had no previous knowledge of Densmore's allegations.
by Corey Moss 2/4/2003

John Densmore filed a lawsuit against fellow Doors founders Robby Krieger and Ray Manzarek Tuesday (February 4) claiming they are infringing on the band’s trademark by using the name for their new supergroup.

The suit, which names Krieger, Manzarek and their bandmates Ian Astbury of the Cult and Stewart Copeland of the Police, also charges breach of contract and unfair competition.

“It’s misleading to the fans,” Densmore said in a statement. “My partners are free to play under any other name and any other logo, as the members of many bands from the same era are doing. I am seeking only to end the confusion caused by the deceptive ad campaign they are using on this tour in order to preserve the legacy of the Doors, and to set the record straight.”

A spokesperson for Krieger and Manzarek said the musicians had no knowledge of Densmore’s allegations until Tuesday, and had no comment on the lawsuit.

Densmore’s suit, which seeks an injunction and damages, notes that advertisements for Krieger and Manzarek’s band have used the original Doors logo, and that Jay Leno introduced the group on “The Tonight Show” as the Doors. It also describes numerous telephone calls the drummer received from family and friends assuming he had reunited with his former guitarist and keyboardist.

According to Densmore, under legal agreement, all business decisions pertaining to the Doors, such as reissues and reunion events, must be made unanimously with the living members of the band and the estate of late frontman Jim Morrison, who died in 1971.

“There has been a drummer playing with that band who is not [Densmore] [that] has minimized and diminished the reputation and stature of [Densmore] by causing people to believe that he was not, and is not, an integral and respected part of the Doors band, or [that he is] one member who easily can be replaced by another,” the lawsuit also notes.

Krieger and Manzarek invited Densmore to join a reunited version of the band with Astbury last fall, but he declined due to a brief illness.

Densmore, who is performing at a fundraiser in Santa Monica on Saturday, will, according to his spokesperson, release the debut album from his new group, Tribal Jazz, this summer.
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« Reply #135 on: October 19, 2014, 10:58:44 PM »

Just for the fun of seeing what their posts would look like, for one day only, perhaps Halloween, I think it would be cool to require bgas and guitarfool2002 to flip word counts.  On that one day, all posts from bgas would be required to be a minimum of 2500 words in length, and all posts from guitarfool2002 would be required to not exceed 50 words in length.

That's funny!  Grin  Although the one or two-liners from Guitarfool would have to be smart-ass remarks (affectionately called zingers)!

It would take me exactly two words to reply to this.
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« Reply #136 on: October 19, 2014, 11:30:36 PM »

We just saw this year's tour promotions with the words "50 Years" attached to the billing, in the form of "Celebrating 50 Years Of Fun Fun Fun", so obviously there is something beyond the power of that brand name itself to be capitalized on when advertising a Beach Boys show with "50th" in the title no matter how threadbare the connection to an actual anniversary to be marked.

And I need to ask about the mention of not having the same appeal: In the aftermath of the Sept. 2012 C50 press releases, when it started to go public around the Grammy event, there were suggestions given that the stripped-down touring band which was announced would be continuing rather than taking on more full band shows was what the fans came to expect from a Beach Boys show, and is what the Beach Boys tours would be returning to, as they were before C50. If the appeal is not the same as you suggested, then either that answer given in 2012 makes no sense or the choice may have involved offering a smaller number of fans what they expected from a Beach Boys show but having that be less appealing to the market overall than taking more offers as C50.

So from your post, the current touring which was being returned to after Fall 2012 would be less appealing according to what you said, but that was also what the fans came to expect from a Beach Boys live tour? I see a contradiction there.

Yes, an anniversary is always popular as I mentioned. Next year it will doubtless be California Girls. It isn`t as powerful as the 50th anniversary of the group though... And of course it doesn`t have the reunion element.

Sorry but the meaning of the rest of your post is unclear... Any official press release is going to be BS. Mike and Bruce have gone back to playing the same size venues they did between 1999 and 2011. They are obviously, generally speaking, not the same size as the C50 venues and ticket prices are not as high.



It was more than clear. If the statement was made that returning to the smaller venues was somehow what the fans had come to expect from a BB's show, and you said the current touring is less appealing, then you must be suggesting the Beach Boys fans were expecting less appealing shows.

I do agree about the B.S element, though. Maybe not the same as you, but on the notion that some of the PR and statements were (and are) pure BS, I'll agree with that.

What i did forget to mention was the notion of having a fun night out at a concert. Well, that's pretty much a no-brainer, isn't it? I don't know how that notion is something unique to the Beach Boys. Unless I wanted to leave the venue an emotional wreck, shattered and in tears, I wouldn't pay money to see such a show that isn't a good time. I don't know who, except maybe those people who paid to see Rod McKuen back in the day, would go to a show not expecting to have some fun or escapism and release of some kind at a live show.

Check the ticket prices for the shows happening in the next week or so on the east coast, around NJ and PA and including the Borgata in Atlantic City. Keep in mind what the price range was for C50 (inflation hasn't gone that crazy in 2 years), and what the price ranges are for the upcoming weeks of shows. In some cases the starting prices for lower-range seats was less for C50 than it is now in 2014. In fact they're nearly the same, give or take.

So the idea of playing smaller venues with lower ticket prices isn't quite the case, since the current prices can be greater in some cases than they were for C50. So let's bust that myth.  Smiley
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« Reply #137 on: October 20, 2014, 01:35:59 AM »

Another story highlighting Mike's attitude to touring and how he has no plans to stop.

http://www.heraldmailmedia.com/life/feeling-the-love-the-beach-boys-set-to-perform-in/article_1391d370-0ca5-5b2e-b632-8956311837db.html

I still don't think money is Mike's main driver. Its the love of the show and the buzz around it. If the end goal is amount $X per year he would sooner get it doing 140 shows per year rather than 40. The other Beach Boys either don't get it or can't cut it.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 01:41:48 AM by Pretty Funky » Logged
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« Reply #138 on: October 20, 2014, 01:46:43 AM »

The C50 events were astonishing... as - sadly - was the torrent of complete nonsense, twaddle & bilge that followed in the wake thereof from all points of the compass and all camps.

...........including this board. I'm burnt out on it. Time to move forward, boys and girls!!  

Obviously many people aren't. Why don't you stop trying to dictate what topics others should discuss, just don't participate in the relevant threads if the subject doesn't interest you. It's annoying.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 01:47:41 AM by Dove Nested Towers » Logged

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Nicko1234
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« Reply #139 on: October 20, 2014, 02:42:41 AM »


It was more than clear. If the statement was made that returning to the smaller venues was somehow what the fans had come to expect from a BB's show, and you said the current touring is less appealing, then you must be suggesting the Beach Boys fans were expecting less appealing shows.


Err, no. What we were discussing was `appeal` in relation to ticket sales and putting bums on seats.

Now the C50 tour had massive appeal as it combined the `The Beach Boys` name, the reunion element and the anniversary element.

It appealed to the casual fans who want to see the hits, the hardcore fans of course, Brian`s fans who wouldn`t go near a Mike and Bruce show, serious music fans and just people who wanted to see an `event` and were interested due to the promotion and the hype. Massively broad appeal which the Mike and Bruce shows obviously don`t match.

What i did forget to mention was the notion of having a fun night out at a concert. Well, that's pretty much a no-brainer, isn't it? I don't know how that notion is something unique to the Beach Boys. Unless I wanted to leave the venue an emotional wreck, shattered and in tears, I wouldn't pay money to see such a show that isn't a good time. I don't know who, except maybe those people who paid to see Rod McKuen back in the day, would go to a show not expecting to have some fun or escapism and release of some kind at a live show.

Nope. There is a massive difference between, for example, the entertainment a concertgoer gets from watching Brian performing Pet Sounds or Smile live and somebody watching Mike and Bruce playing a meat and potatoes show. They appeal to very different demographics (not that there isn`t some crossover of course as many of us on the board prove).


Check the ticket prices for the shows happening in the next week or so on the east coast, around NJ and PA and including the Borgata in Atlantic City. Keep in mind what the price range was for C50 (inflation hasn't gone that crazy in 2 years), and what the price ranges are for the upcoming weeks of shows. In some cases the starting prices for lower-range seats was less for C50 than it is now in 2014. In fact they're nearly the same, give or take.

So the idea of playing smaller venues with lower ticket prices isn't quite the case, since the current prices can be greater in some cases than they were for C50. So let's bust that myth.  Smiley

As I said, the ticket prices for the county fair shows can be very cheap. That`s the reason they are able to get such big crowds in comparison with their other touring. The theatre shows will undoubtedly be more expensive (and will attract a different audience) and it seems like $50 seems to be the average cheapest price which maybe similar to some of the C50 shows. There is no question though that generally speaking Mike and Bruce`s shows are much cheaper than C50.

The bottom line for me is none of the shows that I have seen Mike and Bruce perform at would have been arranged by promoters if they didn`t have `The Beach Boys` name. That`s a certainty. It was obviously the holy grail back in 1998 and for good reason due to both what it reveals and what it conceals. It reveals that people are going to hear the hits and it conceals that many of the original members are not going to be present. Having a band called `Mike Love and Bruce Johnston of The Beach Boys` would actually draw attention to what many people consider to be the very weakest aspect of their group...
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 03:33:43 AM by Nicko1234 » Logged
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« Reply #140 on: October 20, 2014, 07:10:20 AM »


It was more than clear. If the statement was made that returning to the smaller venues was somehow what the fans had come to expect from a BB's show, and you said the current touring is less appealing, then you must be suggesting the Beach Boys fans were expecting less appealing shows.
Err, no. What we were discussing was `appeal` in relation to ticket sales and putting bums on seats.

Now the C50 tour had massive appeal as it combined the `The Beach Boys` name, the reunion element and the anniversary element.

It appealed to the casual fans who want to see the hits, the hardcore fans of course, Brian`s fans who wouldn`t go near a Mike and Bruce show, serious music fans and just people who wanted to see an `event` and were interested due to the promotion and the hype. Massively broad appeal which the Mike and Bruce shows obviously don`t match.

What i did forget to mention was the notion of having a fun night out at a concert. Well, that's pretty much a no-brainer, isn't it? I don't know how that notion is something unique to the Beach Boys. Unless I wanted to leave the venue an emotional wreck, shattered and in tears, I wouldn't pay money to see such a show that isn't a good time. I don't know who, except maybe those people who paid to see Rod McKuen back in the day, would go to a show not expecting to have some fun or escapism and release of some kind at a live show.

Nope. There is a massive difference between, for example, the entertainment a concertgoer gets from watching Brian performing Pet Sounds or Smile live and somebody watching Mike and Bruce playing a meat and potatoes show. They appeal to very different demographics (not that there isn`t some crossover of course as many of us on the board prove).

Check the ticket prices for the shows happening in the next week or so on the east coast, around NJ and PA and including the Borgata in Atlantic City. Keep in mind what the price range was for C50 (inflation hasn't gone that crazy in 2 years), and what the price ranges are for the upcoming weeks of shows. In some cases the starting prices for lower-range seats was less for C50 than it is now in 2014. In fact they're nearly the same, give or take.

So the idea of playing smaller venues with lower ticket prices isn't quite the case, since the current prices can be greater in some cases than they were for C50. So let's bust that myth.  Smiley
As I said, the ticket prices for the county fair shows can be very cheap. That`s the reason they are able to get such big crowds in comparison with their other touring. The theatre shows will undoubtedly be more expensive (and will attract a different audience) and it seems like $50 seems to be the average cheapest price which maybe similar to some of the C50 shows. There is no question though that generally speaking Mike and Bruce`s shows are much cheaper than C50.

The bottom line for me is none of the shows that I have seen Mike and Bruce perform at would have been arranged by promoters if they didn`t have `The Beach Boys` name. That`s a certainty. It was obviously the holy grail back in 1998 and for good reason due to both what it reveals and what it conceals. It reveals that people are going to hear the hits and it conceals that many of the original members are not going to be present. Having a band called `Mike Love and Bruce Johnston of The Beach Boys` would actually draw attention to what many people consider to be the very weakest aspect of their group...
C50 was an "event" which appears to have been set up, as an entity, separate and apart from whatever performances fall inside or outside of BRI.  The key is simple; "status quo ante."  And after two years post that magnificence, it is over.  And was over at the last show. I agree with Andrew that it was astonishing.  But, for that window in time, and it came to an end.  

The reality is that, as an a old person once said, "You can't count someone else's money." You can only count your own.  It isn't my business how much they make.  I don't care. Good luck to them.  They have all worked hard.  Debating ticket prices is foolish as many concerts just don't have the goal of making money.  Not unlike politics.  Some are for "exposure" and carving out a new "constituency" or funding a charity. Some are connected to casino foot traffic.  There is s huge value in playing in community theaters. It is about supporting sustainability.  Some of these old places have fabulous acoustics that don't exist in some of the C50 venues.  These are venues where they can do Their Hearts Were Full of Spring.

Even with celebrating the 50th anniversary of Surfer Girl, or Fun, Fun, Fun or whatever doesn't appear deceptive, but just that it is something to celebrate and isn't reunion related, but just appreciation of the song.  

Will they arrange some other reunion? I don't know.  They don't owe me anything.  It was fabulous but, whether or not it happens again, we'll have to wait and see.  Stranger things have happened.  C50 was a pleasant surprise.  It costs a lot of dough to spread that ticket price around with the staff required to run an operation like C50, with all the logistics working smoothly.  These guys once operated like every other garage band; out of a station wagon.  And that is with the same great music.  

Status quo ante.  They returned to the performing arrangement prior, to C50.  It has been aggressively debated ad nauseum.  
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 07:14:20 AM by filledeplage » Logged
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« Reply #141 on: October 20, 2014, 07:31:40 AM »


It was more than clear. If the statement was made that returning to the smaller venues was somehow what the fans had come to expect from a BB's show, and you said the current touring is less appealing, then you must be suggesting the Beach Boys fans were expecting less appealing shows.


Err, no. What we were discussing was `appeal` in relation to ticket sales and putting bums on seats.

Now the C50 tour had massive appeal as it combined the `The Beach Boys` name, the reunion element and the anniversary element.

It appealed to the casual fans who want to see the hits, the hardcore fans of course, Brian`s fans who wouldn`t go near a Mike and Bruce show, serious music fans and just people who wanted to see an `event` and were interested due to the promotion and the hype. Massively broad appeal which the Mike and Bruce shows obviously don`t match.

What i did forget to mention was the notion of having a fun night out at a concert. Well, that's pretty much a no-brainer, isn't it? I don't know how that notion is something unique to the Beach Boys. Unless I wanted to leave the venue an emotional wreck, shattered and in tears, I wouldn't pay money to see such a show that isn't a good time. I don't know who, except maybe those people who paid to see Rod McKuen back in the day, would go to a show not expecting to have some fun or escapism and release of some kind at a live show.

Nope. There is a massive difference between, for example, the entertainment a concertgoer gets from watching Brian performing Pet Sounds or Smile live and somebody watching Mike and Bruce playing a meat and potatoes show. They appeal to very different demographics (not that there isn`t some crossover of course as many of us on the board prove).


Check the ticket prices for the shows happening in the next week or so on the east coast, around NJ and PA and including the Borgata in Atlantic City. Keep in mind what the price range was for C50 (inflation hasn't gone that crazy in 2 years), and what the price ranges are for the upcoming weeks of shows. In some cases the starting prices for lower-range seats was less for C50 than it is now in 2014. In fact they're nearly the same, give or take.

So the idea of playing smaller venues with lower ticket prices isn't quite the case, since the current prices can be greater in some cases than they were for C50. So let's bust that myth.  Smiley

As I said, the ticket prices for the county fair shows can be very cheap. That`s the reason they are able to get such big crowds in comparison with their other touring. The theatre shows will undoubtedly be more expensive (and will attract a different audience) and it seems like $50 seems to be the average cheapest price which maybe similar to some of the C50 shows. There is no question though that generally speaking Mike and Bruce`s shows are much cheaper than C50.

The bottom line for me is none of the shows that I have seen Mike and Bruce perform at would have been arranged by promoters if they didn`t have `The Beach Boys` name. That`s a certainty. It was obviously the holy grail back in 1998 and for good reason due to both what it reveals and what it conceals. It reveals that people are going to hear the hits and it conceals that many of the original members are not going to be present. Having a band called `Mike Love and Bruce Johnston of The Beach Boys` would actually draw attention to what many people consider to be the very weakest aspect of their group...

Nicko, as you can see I do enjoy a good debate or discussion, but you're trying to spin some things too far. The issue of ticket prices in this case is pretty cut and dry: Look, I have no qualms, no criticisms, basically it doesn't matter at all to me what folks are charging or paying for tickets, I'm being 100% honest. No skin in that game for me. I'm simply addressing what you had said earlier about those prices.

But when you raised the issue of ticket prices being generally "much cheaper" in 2014 for shows versus C50, and going back to C50 there were seats available from 40-50 dollars and up...and in 2014 there are seats available from 40-50 dollars and up, it's the same price range. And the mid-level tickets which is what most fans can call and purchase are around 80-90 dollars, and were around 80-90 dollars for C50 as well. Check the listings this week. So your statement about "much cheaper" is simply not true on the most basic level, which is, again, someone can buy a ticket for one of the shows this week starting at around 50-70 based on the venue and they were able to do the same thing for a lot of the C50 shows, and if they want more deluxe packages they can pay more for those too. Let's not argue mathematics, after all!  Smiley

Same with semantics and the definitions of the word "appeal" and how it is used: I know what "appeal" means, especially aesthetically versus commercially, or in terms of "market appeal" and the like. Again it gets back to trying to discuss or even figure out some of the statements made in fall 2012, and how some seemed to contradict or conflict with the reality of the situation as it played out since that time.

Regarding "meat and potatoes" shows, look up some of the setlists of recent years and tell me that adding deep cuts, album cuts, "Pisces Brothers" and "Goin To The Beach" (which the 'meat and potatoes' or impulse ticket buyer has much less knowledge of those songs than the more engaged fan) and any number of songs not on the usual greatest hits list does not back up what you're saying. It's a bonus of all the shows, from Brian to Mike and all in between that they do go deep into the playlist and pull out songs for the more engaged fans. But just look at the last few years' worth of setlists and even some comments promoting various shows where the fact that playing some deeper or more obscure songs from the catalog was promoted. So I'm just saying it's not quite how you're trying to present it when there are deep cuts and even non-Beach Boys solo-member songs in those sets.

Summary: Check the ticket prices, check the setlists, and the numbers are all there. For what it's worth here.
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« Reply #142 on: October 20, 2014, 08:00:12 AM »

The C50 events were astonishing... as - sadly - was the torrent of complete nonsense, twaddle & bilge that followed in the wake thereof from all points of the compass and all camps.

...........including this board. I'm burnt out on it. Time to move forward, boys and girls!!  

Obviously many people aren't. Why don't you stop trying to dictate what topics others should discuss, just don't participate in the relevant threads if the subject doesn't interest you. It's annoying.

I don't dictate anything at all.  But thanks for letting me know that you're annoyed.  My work is done here.  See you on the other threads.  Grin
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« Reply #143 on: October 20, 2014, 12:13:06 PM »

Quote from: Pretty Funky
I still don't think money is Mike's main driver. Its the love of the show and the buzz around it. If the end goal is amount $X per year he would sooner get it doing 140 shows per year rather than 40. The other Beach Boys either don't get it or can't cut it.
Mike is control freak, and he loves working. That's the vibe I get. I think he doesn't want to tour with Brian because he doesn't want a power struggle. Brian has the influence to demand certain songs, shows, and etc., and Mike seemingly doesn't like that. You get the impression he believes the show should be done a certain way, and that he thinks Brian just "doesn't get it". Mike also has an ego and probably resents sharing the spotlight. You can just imagine him cringing whenever Brian sang "Summer's Gone" with it's 'downer' lyrics.
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« Reply #144 on: October 20, 2014, 01:33:32 PM »

Bands break-up every day for the same reason. Definitely not unique to the Beach Boys that's for sure.
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« Reply #145 on: October 20, 2014, 03:30:19 PM »

There are similar cases with some very familiar rock bands and artists, I don't like to compare but I'm curious to know the reactions and opinions among their fans just the same. How about Roger Waters - The guy staged his own "The Wall" events, played the Floyd music at his shows while still doing his own solo material, and the fans came to see him. At the same time, there was Gilmour and the other Floyd bandmates touring and releasing music as Pink Floyd, along with Gilmour doing his own solo projects, and the fans came to see him (and them) too. Now in 2014 there was just a bunch of hype around a "new" Pink Floyd release, and it's basically warmed-over vault material that's not really new in any sense of the word, and Waters and Gilmour are still polar opposites in terms of getting back together as Pink Floyd. How are fans taking that situation, or how did they take "The Wall" being staged as a Roger Waters presentation when everyone knows it as a Pink Floyd production?

How about The Doors? I'm asking because I really have no clue what's been happening since Ray passed away. I know Robbie has made some appearances as "of the Doors" or "original Doors guitarist", and I know for years there were disputes and legal challenges around Densmore using The Doors name for his projects, but where does it stand in 2014 now that Ray is gone?


The Doors situation was a different story and I think you've got it the wrong way around. Densmore sued Manzarek and Krieger over touring with the name "The Doors of The 21st Century". He claimed fans would be confused and think they were seeing The Doors (sounds like Mike's argument about "The Beach Boys Family and Friends", doesn't it?). Densmore won that court battle even though I think it was petty myself. Considering Jim Morrison casts such a long shadow and is (presumably lol) dead, I doubt fans were turning up to gigs expecting to see him. Manzarek and Krieger had to call themselves "Riders On The Storm" instead. It wound up not affecting ticket sales at all. Densmore never toured as The Doors and hasn't actively played live with anybody in years.

I may not have worded it the right way but I knew pretty well what the lawsuit(s) were about. I think you may have stated it a bit incorrectly or incompletely above, though. So here are a few period reports from that time. Notice both articles mentioned Densmore was still performing on his own (not as or with The Doors obviously) but at one point had been battling tinnitus, with Ray suggesting that was why he opted out of Ray and Robby's shows, but later Densmore said he wasn't asked to join the group. Hmm.

And another lawsuit (another of a handful back and forth) was over licensing Break On Through for a Cadillac ad.

February 05, 2003 12:00 AM EST

John Densmore, former drummer and co-founder of the Doors, has filed a multiple-count lawsuit against surviving original band members Ray Manzarek and Robert Krieger, among others, Billboard Bulletin reports.

The suit -- filed yesterday (Feb. 4) in Los Angeles Superior Court by Densmore and on behalf of the estates of the late vocalist Jim Morrison and his wife, Pam Courson -- revolves around a new incarnation of the Doors that has performed in recent months. The suit, which seeks unspecified damages, claims that written and oral agreements mandate that the Doors name and logo can be used only by the original band members.

Keyboardist Manzarek and guitarist Krieger have been playing dates as the Doors with Ian Astbury (formerly of the Cult) on vocals and Stewart Copeland (ex-Police) on drums. The group, which performed recently on "The Tonight Show," played the L.A. House of Blues on Jan. 31 and is scheduled to play Universal Amphitheatre on Friday.

Manzarek told Billboard.com in September that Densmore had opted out of the tour because he was suffering from tinnitus (a ringing in the ears). However, the drummer said in an interview yesterday with the Hollywood Reporter that he has fully recovered and will be performing live Saturday for a public school district benefit.

"I'm troubled by one guy singing the whole night," Densmore said. "There are Doors cover bands in every city; we shouldn't join that, should we? No disrespect to Ian Astbury or Stewart Copeland; they are wonderful musicians. But my point is they are not the Doors."

Manzarek countered in an interview with Reuters that Densmore's suit was "frivolous," and that he and Krieger were billing themselves as "the Doors, 21st Century." In fact, Densmore said he found out that Astbury and Copeland were going to tour as the Doors from an article in Billboard. "I thought, 'Oh, OK, I'm fired in the paper,'" Densmore said. "I called Robby and said, 'Robby, you've got to change the name, please.'"

Even though his ears are back in shape to perform, Densmore said he would not want to play with the group. "Who can fill Jim's leather pants?" he said. "The Doors is John, Jim, Ray, and Robby. It's not Ray, Robby, Stewart, and Ian." Densmore said he's not after money, nor will he try to stop Friday's show. He just wants the band to change the name. "They can call themselves Formerly Members of the Doors or the Hinges or the Windows," he said.

-- Erik Gruenwedel, L.A.





Doors’ Densmore Sues Former Bandmates Over Use Of Group’s Name
Spokesperson for defendants says they had no previous knowledge of Densmore's allegations.
by Corey Moss 2/4/2003

John Densmore filed a lawsuit against fellow Doors founders Robby Krieger and Ray Manzarek Tuesday (February 4) claiming they are infringing on the band’s trademark by using the name for their new supergroup.

The suit, which names Krieger, Manzarek and their bandmates Ian Astbury of the Cult and Stewart Copeland of the Police, also charges breach of contract and unfair competition.

“It’s misleading to the fans,” Densmore said in a statement. “My partners are free to play under any other name and any other logo, as the members of many bands from the same era are doing. I am seeking only to end the confusion caused by the deceptive ad campaign they are using on this tour in order to preserve the legacy of the Doors, and to set the record straight.”

A spokesperson for Krieger and Manzarek said the musicians had no knowledge of Densmore’s allegations until Tuesday, and had no comment on the lawsuit.

Densmore’s suit, which seeks an injunction and damages, notes that advertisements for Krieger and Manzarek’s band have used the original Doors logo, and that Jay Leno introduced the group on “The Tonight Show” as the Doors. It also describes numerous telephone calls the drummer received from family and friends assuming he had reunited with his former guitarist and keyboardist.

According to Densmore, under legal agreement, all business decisions pertaining to the Doors, such as reissues and reunion events, must be made unanimously with the living members of the band and the estate of late frontman Jim Morrison, who died in 1971.

“There has been a drummer playing with that band who is not [Densmore] [that] has minimized and diminished the reputation and stature of [Densmore] by causing people to believe that he was not, and is not, an integral and respected part of the Doors band, or [that he is] one member who easily can be replaced by another,” the lawsuit also notes.

Krieger and Manzarek invited Densmore to join a reunited version of the band with Astbury last fall, but he declined due to a brief illness.

Densmore, who is performing at a fundraiser in Santa Monica on Saturday, will, according to his spokesperson, release the debut album from his new group, Tribal Jazz, this summer.


Thanks. I forgot about Tribal Jazz. That case dragged on and got weirder and weirder, with Ray's attorney accusing Densmore of consorting with terrorists (not kidding. It's in Densmore's book about the lawsuit). My point was that there are parallels to the BRI -vs- Al lawsuit even though the way The Doors handle (or were supposed to handle) things was different. Despite what John claims I don't think Ray and Robby going out as "The Doors of the 21st Century" was misleading, just as I don't believe that Al going out as "The Beach Boys Family and Friends" was misleading or a conflict of interest. It's not The Doors it's "The Doors Yada Yada Yada" which should tell you right off the bat that something's different. On a legal level, yes, BRI and Densmore's arguments make sense, but realistically you'd have to be pretty stupid to not know that "The Beach Boys Family & Friends" is something different from "The Beach Boys".

..but that's so long ago now that it doesn't matter. 
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Nicko1234
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« Reply #146 on: October 20, 2014, 04:07:50 PM »


Nicko, as you can see I do enjoy a good debate or discussion, but you're trying to spin some things too far. The issue of ticket prices in this case is pretty cut and dry: Look, I have no qualms, no criticisms, basically it doesn't matter at all to me what folks are charging or paying for tickets, I'm being 100% honest. No skin in that game for me. I'm simply addressing what you had said earlier about those prices.

But when you raised the issue of ticket prices being generally "much cheaper" in 2014 for shows versus C50, and going back to C50 there were seats available from 40-50 dollars and up...and in 2014 there are seats available from 40-50 dollars and up, it's the same price range. And the mid-level tickets which is what most fans can call and purchase are around 80-90 dollars, and were around 80-90 dollars for C50 as well. Check the listings this week. So your statement about "much cheaper" is simply not true on the most basic level, which is, again, someone can buy a ticket for one of the shows this week starting at around 50-70 based on the venue and they were able to do the same thing for a lot of the C50 shows, and if they want more deluxe packages they can pay more for those too. Let's not argue mathematics, after all!  Smiley

Same with semantics and the definitions of the word "appeal" and how it is used: I know what "appeal" means, especially aesthetically versus commercially, or in terms of "market appeal" and the like. Again it gets back to trying to discuss or even figure out some of the statements made in fall 2012, and how some seemed to contradict or conflict with the reality of the situation as it played out since that time.

Regarding "meat and potatoes" shows, look up some of the setlists of recent years and tell me that adding deep cuts, album cuts, "Pisces Brothers" and "Goin To The Beach" (which the 'meat and potatoes' or impulse ticket buyer has much less knowledge of those songs than the more engaged fan) and any number of songs not on the usual greatest hits list does not back up what you're saying. It's a bonus of all the shows, from Brian to Mike and all in between that they do go deep into the playlist and pull out songs for the more engaged fans. But just look at the last few years' worth of setlists and even some comments promoting various shows where the fact that playing some deeper or more obscure songs from the catalog was promoted. So I'm just saying it's not quite how you're trying to present it when there are deep cuts and even non-Beach Boys solo-member songs in those sets.

Summary: Check the ticket prices, check the setlists, and the numbers are all there. For what it's worth here.

Sorry but there really is no spin going on. Mike and Bruce play loads of shows at county fairs where the ticket prices are very cheap. When I type in county fair shows on google one of the first to come up for this year states, `Tickets go on sale Saturday, June 7th and range in price from $27 to $37`. These are the type of shows that Mike and Bruce play for much of the summer and it is why then can sell 5-10,000 tickets. Of course they play more expensive shows (and have even played black tie shows that are more expensive than C50) but if you were to compare the average price paid by someone to watch Mike and Bruce in 2014 compared with the prices paid to watch C50 then it would be much cheaper. That is an indisputable fact surely.

I`ve never argued that Mike and Bruce don`t play deep cuts. Quite the opposite. It`s just that they aren`t the main draw for the majority of the concertgoers and at the most heavily attended concerts (those county fair shows again) most of them aren`t played.

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« Reply #147 on: October 20, 2014, 05:37:11 PM »


Thanks. I forgot about Tribal Jazz. That case dragged on and got weirder and weirder, with Ray's attorney accusing Densmore of consorting with terrorists (not kidding. It's in Densmore's book about the lawsuit). My point was that there are parallels to the BRI -vs- Al lawsuit even though the way The Doors handle (or were supposed to handle) things was different. Despite what John claims I don't think Ray and Robby going out as "The Doors of the 21st Century" was misleading, just as I don't believe that Al going out as "The Beach Boys Family and Friends" was misleading or a conflict of interest. It's not The Doors it's "The Doors Yada Yada Yada" which should tell you right off the bat that something's different. On a legal level, yes, BRI and Densmore's arguments make sense, but realistically you'd have to be pretty stupid to not know that "The Beach Boys Family & Friends" is something different from "The Beach Boys".

..but that's so long ago now that it doesn't matter. 


It was a bizarre scene, all around! Read into at least one of the articles I clipped above and it seems like there were a few key moments that may have triggered something deeper in John to lead to all of the legal action regarding the name. One of which was the group appearing on the Tonight Show and Leno introducing them as "The Doors", along with the banner with the band's trademarked logo basically flying behind them at various times, and also John getting calls from people he knew - who therefore would know a little sumpin' about sumpin' regarding his band - who assumed John was going to be playing those shows with "The Doors" after they heard about the tour Ray and Robby were staging.

I think that above anything, I mean the notion, where John, Ray, Robby, and Jim's estate long ago made a pact about how "The Doors" legacy would be handled, and John hearing/seeing Jay Leno introduce "The Doors" on television without his involvement could have been a tipping point. I can see where that would anger someone in light of the agreement and pact they had made, and which John saw all but being broken on television that night. If I read into some of John's comments, he was both touched and I believe felt validated when Jim's father, then in his mid-to-late 80's, sided with him on these specific issues, not to mention the former Mrs. Morrison. They could easily have suggested "Jim would have wanted Ray and Robby to play as The Doors" but he sided with John. Very multi-layered story, right there.

And there was also the difference in how the story unfolded according to who was asked, where John at least one published time said he was not asked to participate at all, and I believe Ray said John's tinnitus kept him from joining. I don't know whose side Doors fans may fall on that, but it was either John was asked or was not. Then Stewart Copeland filed his own breach of contract lawsuit because his contract to drum with Ray and Robby wasn't honored, yet Copeland had broken his arm or something around the time of the tour. What a mess!

The last I heard was John and Robby had tried to mend fences after Ray's death regarding a tribute show, but beyond that I honestly have not kept up in 2014 with what is happening regarding them or "The Doors" as an entity without Ray. I would however not hesitate to see Robby or John in person, even if it were them giving a clinic or telling Doors stories at a public event. No matter what they call themselves!  Smiley

And I cannot really find anything to connect the Beach Boys to this, except maybe in theory regarding naming and legacy, and if you take something for legal precedent or something similar. Each case is individual, each group of individuals is their own thing with their own quirks and hang-ups, so comparing them beyond the surface events is a pretty hard sell.
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« Reply #148 on: October 20, 2014, 06:03:10 PM »


Nicko, as you can see I do enjoy a good debate or discussion, but you're trying to spin some things too far. The issue of ticket prices in this case is pretty cut and dry: Look, I have no qualms, no criticisms, basically it doesn't matter at all to me what folks are charging or paying for tickets, I'm being 100% honest. No skin in that game for me. I'm simply addressing what you had said earlier about those prices.

But when you raised the issue of ticket prices being generally "much cheaper" in 2014 for shows versus C50, and going back to C50 there were seats available from 40-50 dollars and up...and in 2014 there are seats available from 40-50 dollars and up, it's the same price range. And the mid-level tickets which is what most fans can call and purchase are around 80-90 dollars, and were around 80-90 dollars for C50 as well. Check the listings this week. So your statement about "much cheaper" is simply not true on the most basic level, which is, again, someone can buy a ticket for one of the shows this week starting at around 50-70 based on the venue and they were able to do the same thing for a lot of the C50 shows, and if they want more deluxe packages they can pay more for those too. Let's not argue mathematics, after all!  Smiley

Same with semantics and the definitions of the word "appeal" and how it is used: I know what "appeal" means, especially aesthetically versus commercially, or in terms of "market appeal" and the like. Again it gets back to trying to discuss or even figure out some of the statements made in fall 2012, and how some seemed to contradict or conflict with the reality of the situation as it played out since that time.

Regarding "meat and potatoes" shows, look up some of the setlists of recent years and tell me that adding deep cuts, album cuts, "Pisces Brothers" and "Goin To The Beach" (which the 'meat and potatoes' or impulse ticket buyer has much less knowledge of those songs than the more engaged fan) and any number of songs not on the usual greatest hits list does not back up what you're saying. It's a bonus of all the shows, from Brian to Mike and all in between that they do go deep into the playlist and pull out songs for the more engaged fans. But just look at the last few years' worth of setlists and even some comments promoting various shows where the fact that playing some deeper or more obscure songs from the catalog was promoted. So I'm just saying it's not quite how you're trying to present it when there are deep cuts and even non-Beach Boys solo-member songs in those sets.

Summary: Check the ticket prices, check the setlists, and the numbers are all there. For what it's worth here.

Sorry but there really is no spin going on. Mike and Bruce play loads of shows at county fairs where the ticket prices are very cheap. When I type in county fair shows on google one of the first to come up for this year states, `Tickets go on sale Saturday, June 7th and range in price from $27 to $37`. These are the type of shows that Mike and Bruce play for much of the summer and it is why then can sell 5-10,000 tickets. Of course they play more expensive shows (and have even played black tie shows that are more expensive than C50) but if you were to compare the average price paid by someone to watch Mike and Bruce in 2014 compared with the prices paid to watch C50 then it would be much cheaper. That is an indisputable fact surely.

I`ve never argued that Mike and Bruce don`t play deep cuts. Quite the opposite. It`s just that they aren`t the main draw for the majority of the concertgoers and at the most heavily attended concerts (those county fair shows again) most of them aren`t played.



Nicko, I'm offering this as a suggestion, take a look at Andrew's "Bellagio" site, where the gigs are listed, and scroll through the gigs Mike and Bruce played in 2013 and 2014. You continue to reference these 'county fair' shows as perhaps indicative of the type of shows the BB's play and therefore that might back up what you said about lower ticket prices.

Scroll through all the gigs from 2013-14, and note that there are roughly 10 or 12 that are "county fair" or even state fair shows. I'm chalking this up to perhaps a trans-continental divide or a cultural thing of some kind if you are not from the US, but a lot of those venues on the gig/tour itinerary were/are either casinos, amphitheaters, auditoriums, or other venues beyond what I think you might be assuming they are or were. They're not carry-your-own-lawnchair to the stage kind of shows at all, nor are they anything less than what a standard American theater or auditorium or casino venue show would be for any acts playing them.

Again, check Andrew's Bellagio gigs list, for those bookings post-C50, and you'll find 10-12 shows which i think fit the bill of what you've been suggesting as county fair type shows and venues.

And further beyond that, check the ticket prices, even for the shows remaining in 2014, including some on this part of the east coast in the next week. They're not fairs, they're not lower-profile venues, but they're also not urban venues or arenas of the type C50 played. See it for yourself. Consider one specific venue, "The American Music Theater" in Lancaster, PA. This is a 1,600 seater, some hear the name Lancaster and think it's "Amish Country" in pastoral, rural PA, but then check the prices they've charged for Beach Boys shows there in the recent past. It's far from county fair pricing, and the venue is far from a county fair type stage atmosphere. And the term "fairgrounds" does not place a gig at having been played at an actual fair, or suggests something less than a professional venue with a full stage and seating setup in place.

And note those ticket prices.

I said before, I don't mind having discussions or debates, but if you're calling these things "indisputable facts" and they are not, especially regarding ticket pricing and "county fairs" and the like, it's just off-base to push these things so definitely or definitively that just aren't true. And all anyone needs to do is check the current ticket price ranges for the next month's shows on any ticket-seller's website, and check the Bellagio site for a rundown of the gigs since 2012 to see exactly what percentage were or were not the county fair type of shows you've said Mike and Bruce play loads of and book for much of the summer. It just isn't the case, otherwise there would be more than the generous dozen "fair" events I counted over two years of steady touring. 
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« Reply #149 on: October 20, 2014, 06:09:27 PM »

John said he made amends with Ray shortly before he died, or at least called and talked to him. The tension between John and Ray had been thick for some time. Densmore could barely contain his annoyance at Ray on the group commentary tracks they did for The Doors DVD collection. It makes for uncomfortable listening.

As of 2014, still no tribute show but "Feast Of Friends" is coming out on DVD soon (with a ton of extras).

 
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