Damn, I miss it being C50

[guitarfool2002]

John said he made amends with Ray shortly before he died, or at least called and talked to him. The tension between John and Ray had been thick for some time. Densmore could barely contain his annoyance at Ray on the group commentary tracks they did for The Doors DVD collection. It makes for uncomfortable listening.

As of 2014, still no tribute show but "Feast Of Friends" is coming out on DVD soon (with a ton of extras).

I'm all about those "extras"!     What a tangled mess, though, and to John's credit I think he did lay out in his book that notion of the band from its earliest days having an "all for one, one for all" mentality in their existence and dealings, and yet all of it unraveled basically in public view and in the court battles.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I hope John and Robby can work out the logistics for the Ray Manzarek tribute concert. Ray deserves a night, and it would be a charitable event for cancer...

John and Robby performed this show earlier in 2014: http://youtu.be/lgo1bQuMVoQ

[Andrew G. Doe]

The fairgrounds problem: if you care to check my site, you'll find The Beach Boys were playing county fairs back in the early sixties. It's not a purely post-Carl phenomenon.

I don't recall anyone bitching when they played baseball double-headers back in the 80s, and it's exactly the same principle.

Three things I think we can all agree about concerning C50:

1 - it happened...

2 - it was orders of magnitude better than anyone dared hope...

3 - it's over and will never happen again, and all the opinions, hot air and flat out drivel spouted here won't change that. You can argue that Custer made a huge error leaving the Gatling guns behind and ignored the advice of his guides, and likely he did, but the fact is, he still died at Little Big Horn.

[Nicko1234]

I said before, I don't mind having discussions or debates, but if you're calling these things "indisputable facts" and they are not, especially regarding ticket pricing and "county fairs" and the like, it's just off-base to push these things so definitely or definitively that just aren't true. And all anyone needs to do is check the current ticket price ranges for the next month's shows on any ticket-seller's website, and check the Bellagio site for a rundown of the gigs since 2012 to see exactly what percentage were or were not the county fair type of shows you've said Mike and Bruce play loads of and book for much of the summer. It just isn't the case, otherwise there would be more than the generous dozen "fair" events I counted over two years of steady touring. 

I do apologize for wrongly using the words `county fair` when I should have used a more generic term like outdoor shows. I agree with you that few gigs are listed as fairs on AGD site.

Of course I agree that looking at ticket prices for current shows in theatres is relevant. But looking at only those theatre shows is obviously not going to give a fair and accurate view of things. A quick look at some of the gigs M&B have played this year (not fair dates) shows tickets at different venues going for $5, $20, $29, $33, $35, $37 etc. Several of the U.K. dates were similarly cheap I seem to recall (along with some more expensive concerts).

So if you have a mixture of plenty of dates that are as expensive as C50 and plenty that are much cheaper then it goes without saying that the average overall price that people are paying is going to be significantly lower. Especially as the cheaper dates are often the better attended ones (wasn`t there an estimated 20,000 people at one of these shows?) where the crowds are several times larger than in the theatres.

[Andrew G. Doe]

(wasn`t there an estimated 20,000 people at one of these shows?)

None of the UK racecourse attendances were estimated: they were an exact ticket count.

Newmarket - 13,449
Newbury - 15,059
Epsom Downs - 6,234
York - 16,992

[Cam Mott]

Mike is control freak, and he loves working. That's the vibe I get. I think he doesn't want to tour with Brian because he doesn't want a power struggle. Brian has the influence to demand certain songs, shows, and etc., and Mike seemingly doesn't like that. You get the impression he believes the show should be done a certain way, and that he thinks Brian just "doesn't get it". Mike also has an ego and probably resents sharing the spotlight. You can just imagine him cringing whenever Brian sang "Summer's Gone" with it's 'downer' lyrics.

The vibe I get is Brian called most of the shots, except on the 2nd continuation. Which he called the shots on by saying no more, but he apparently regretted it. Would that make Brian a control freak?

But I generally agree with your vibe.

[Nicko1234]

Having internet access at work and nothing to do at work today I had a look at the ticket prices for as many M&B shows this summer as I could. From looking at about 40 shows between mid-July and the end of September there were probably 6 or 7 where the prices were similar to those of C50. Upmarket venues such as Wente Vineyards and Frederik Meijer Gardens & Sculpture Park for example.

For the vast majority of other shows the ticket prices are in no way comparable though. Obviously there are the county fairs and the racecourses that are cheap but there are also free shows, multiple nights in an amphitheater for $23, lawn tickets at an amphitheater for $10, festival shows for $5, casino shows that start at $25 etc. Plus the regular theater shows, while not being cheap, are generally reasonably priced.

I don`t mention this to be a know-all git (although I`m sure that`s the way it may appear) but simply because it fits in with the topic that was being discussed earlier in the thread. It is pretty clear that the vast majority of people who go to watch M&B do so at shows where the ticket prices are comparatively very cheap. They certainly do play classier venues at times but you have to play a hell of a lot of shows at 1,500 seater theaters to perform to the same number of people you do in a few racecourse, fair or festival dates. The people who attend these cheaper shows are the ones who want to hear the hits and want to see a group called `The Beach Boys`. I doubt iit goes any deeper than that with them...

[HeyJude]

I don't recall anyone bitching when they played baseball double-headers back in the 80s, and it's exactly the same principle.

Actually, I thought back in the 80’s it was a relatively tacky move. It was a continuation of lacking interest to be functioning artists producing new material, and was another move towards becoming the “traveling jukebox.” As with everything else; Kokomo, Stamos, Full House, and so on, the baseball gigs surely got the band seen and heard. But going back and seeing the footage of them coming out on to the baseball field in old timey cars and awash in corporate sponsor logos, and then playing their show to a partially emptied out baseball stadium, always struck me as something worth (pointlessly) “bitching” about as a fan.

[HeyJude]

I never got the impression that Brian was calling the shots on the touring side of things. We have Al saying just as the tour started that he had to “ask” Mike to add songs to the setlist. Joe Thomas mentioned in an interview, if I’m recalling correctly, that it roughly amounted to a case of Brian being “in charge” on the studio side of things, and Mike being “in charge” on the touring side of things.

The Rolling Stone article paints a picture of Brian and Mike discussing adding “Marcella” to the setlist for instance. Whether that was Brian “asking” or “telling” is debatable I suppose. Mike was ceding some level of control on C50, no question. But when you are coming from a situation where you call ALL the shots about everything, then anything else that involves even a bit of deciding anything by committee is going to be a case of ceding some amount of control.

I think that Rolling Stone article probably tells more of the “story” of that tour (and the whole reunion) than anything the band or fans have said in the aftermath of the tour. Mike was ill at ease not being in control. I’ll even cut him some slack and suggest that my guess is he doesn’t have like megalomania; I don’t think he wants to control *others.* He just doesn’t want others or the decisions of others impacting him in any way that he can’t control.

We’re obviously at the mercy of how the article paints the situation, but that “Marcella” discussion I think seemed to be telling: It had probably literally been 15 or more years since someone “told” Mike they would be adding something to the setlist. I’m sure over the years various folks have *suggested* various tunes. But Brian basically floats adding “Marcella”, and then kind of basically says “my guys know that song, so we’ll just be adding it.” I don’t think that means Brian was “running” the band. I think they all seemed to let Mike have that as his domain; but basically with the right (as a Beach Boy for fudge’s sake) to invoke their Beach Boys powers and pick a song for their own freaking band.

[Robbie Mac]

What pissed me off about the Marcella discussion was Mike countering with "what are we gonna drop?" Um, I don't know, Mike how about the oldies covers like California Dreaming or Rock and Roll Music or Come Go With Me that people don't associate with the Beach Boys?

And the "my guys know it" was in response to Scott Totten's "we don't know how to play it".

[HeyJude]

What pissed me off about the Marcella discussion was Mike countering with "what are we gonna drop?" Um, I don't know, Mike how about the oldies covers like California Dreaming or Rock and Roll Music or Come Go With Me that people don't associate with the Beach Boys?

And the "my guys know it" was in response to Scott Totten's "we don't know how to play it".

The idea that they had to then "drop" a song is also odd, because the length of the shows varied over the course of the tour. I think they started at around 43 songs, and then it started hitting more like 46 or so songs, and by the end of the tour they were hitting closer to 50 songs per show I believe. There was also of course the two epic UK setlists, all 61 songs at RAH and 55 or so at Wembley. I realize length of the songs would factor in to some degree, so perhaps the overall duration of the shows didn't always fluctuate as much if they went from 43 to 45 songs and swapped out two shorter songs for instance.

In any event, not only would they not necessarily have to "drop" a song to add "Marcella"; they also were rotating songs in and out by that stage anyway (stuff like "This Whole World", "You're So Good To Me", etc. were only sporadically being performed).

[Cam Mott]

Brian is in control in the studio, the touring band is mostly his band while most of Mike's band sit out, the only example has Brian seemingly getting his way (or Mike seemingly conceding to Brian maybe) but it doesn't seem like Brian was mostly in control?

[CenturyDeprived]

What pissed me off about the Marcella discussion was Mike countering with "what are we gonna drop?" Um, I don't know, Mike how about the oldies covers like California Dreaming or Rock and Roll Music or Come Go With Me that people don't associate with the Beach Boys?

And the "my guys know it" was in response to Scott Totten's "we don't know how to play it".

It's really just absolutely baffling that adding awesome songs like Marcella, especially in the C50 context, was such a big deal to cause resistance from Mike. I'm glad he finally "caved" because it was super rad seeing it performed live by the BBs.  In the bizarro world of this band, adding great cuts like Marcella (and the unfortunately never-even-touched-during-C50 Surf's Up) becomes such a tough sell to a stubborn bandmember. Although I'm not necessarily suggesting that Surf's Up wasn't played due to Mike, I have no idea if playing it was ever even considered...  and while I know that Brian finds it tough to perform anymore, I do wonder if he'd have encountered Marcella-like resistance if he'd wanted to play it.

I echo HeyJude's assumption in that maybe it's more Mike's fear of others making decisions impacting him in any way that he can’t control; this may be more of a reason for attempting to resist playing Marcella, as opposed to any actual opposition to Marcella himself. Here's a question: if another "deep" cut, on the relative level of obscurity as Marcella (or perhaps even more obscure) was suggested to be played during C50 by Brian/Al, and it was a track that Mike sung lead on originally, and was easily learn-able by the backing band, would Mike have put up a similar blockade of resistance? I suppose if he really didn't like the song, maybe he would have. But something tells me he'd have done it relatively more happily because it would've been more attention on Mike.

I wonder what it would've taken for the band to have performed All I Wanna Do.  That song REALLY needed (and still needs) a champion from inside the BBs world, whether a bandmember or an inner-circle type. Call me an optimist, but I'm sorta convinced that if (Mike especially) became aware of how the song has a pretty hardcore following, he'd at least mention the song from time to time, and maybe consider playing it live, maybe even with M&B. The possibility of him playing it live at some future point could perhaps be his only ticket left these days to gaining a few kernels of potential hipster cred, should he be in any way concerned with such.

[Nicko1234]

It may be that Marcella was genuinely a big issue on tour (perhaps some of the insiders could elaborate) but it doesn`t seem like a huge thing in the article. `What are we going to drop? Maybe we can rotate some songs`. Not the most dramatic or newsworthy debate really. And then both Marcella and Add Some Music were added anyway along with other songs...

[filledeplage]

It may be that Marcella was genuinely a big issue on tour (perhaps some of the insiders could elaborate) but it doesn`t seem like a huge thing in the article. `What are we going to drop? Maybe we can rotate some songs`. Not the most dramatic or newsworthy debate really. And then both Marcella and Add Some Music were added anyway along with other songs...

Add Some Music was in the setlist early on in C50 around the piano, after intermission. 

Hardly an afterthought...

[Cam Mott]

It may be that Marcella was genuinely a big issue on tour (perhaps some of the insiders could elaborate) but it doesn`t seem like a huge thing in the article. `What are we going to drop? Maybe we can rotate some songs`. Not the most dramatic or newsworthy debate really. And then both Marcella and Add Some Music were added anyway along with other songs...

I agree. To me it sounds cooperative and practical all around, the exact opposite of a power struggle.

[HeyJude]

One story of Brian suggesting “Marcella”, and the C50 band being comprised mostly of Brian’s touring band does not mean Brian was “running” the C50 tour or “in control.” Mike got over half of his band into the C50 band too (four out of seven, five out of seven if you want to count Bonhomme being on the road crew). The proportionately larger number of Brian’s band has as much to do with Mike having a smaller, leaner band to pull from in the first place.

As far as setlist, over half of the setlist writes itself anyway. Further, the C50 tour did a number of songs that Brian had never (and probably would never) perform, like “It’s OK”, “Kokomo”, “Betsy”, “Getcha Back”, “Rock and Roll Music”, “Still Cruisin’.” Does anybody think anyone other than Mike (or maybe Bruce or Totten) suggested (or simply told the band) they would be adding those songs? I’m not saying those were bad song choices. If you go back to the discussions during C50, I actually defended the inclusion of “Still Cruisin’” if for no other reason than to better represent the 80’s. They also did more surf/car songs than even Brian’s “greatest hits” shows typically perform.

The beauty of C50 was seeing it all mesh together (even if behind the scenes it wasn’t all warm and fuzzy). Seeing Mike fronting Brian’s band was amazing. Seeing Brian sing Carl’s parts on “All This Is That” or “California Dreamin’” was cool. Did we ever thing we’d see Mike sing Al’s “California Saga” again? Whether Mike loathed its inclusion or not (I doubt he did; it’s just one he would have picked), it was very cool to see him on stage singing on “Marcella.”

Brian didn’t run that tour. Mike didn’t either. I think he was, by all accounts, the sort of “gatekeeper” of the setlist and things like that. But in any event, C50 was amazing in part because no single person was autocratically running it. I would have preferred more input from others (does anyone think Al got much of any of his picks for the setlist other than “California Saga”?) if anything. That Mike may have been disenfranchised with even that level of compromise is unsettling, though not surprising.

[Nicko1234]

It may be that Marcella was genuinely a big issue on tour (perhaps some of the insiders could elaborate) but it doesn`t seem like a huge thing in the article. `What are we going to drop? Maybe we can rotate some songs`. Not the most dramatic or newsworthy debate really. And then both Marcella and Add Some Music were added anyway along with other songs...

Add Some Music was in the setlist early on in C50 around the piano, after intermission. 

Hardly an afterthought...

This was the other song Brian was quoted as suggesting in Jason Fine`s article...

[Nicko1234]

One story of Brian suggesting “Marcella”, and the C50 band being comprised mostly of Brian’s touring band does not mean Brian was “running” the C50 tour or “in control.” Mike got over half of his band into the C50 band too (four out of seven, five out of seven if you want to count Bonhomme being on the road crew). The proportionately larger number of Brian’s band has as much to do with Mike having a smaller, leaner band to pull from in the first place.

Hmmm...

[HeyJude]

It may be that Marcella was genuinely a big issue on tour (perhaps some of the insiders could elaborate) but it doesn`t seem like a huge thing in the article. `What are we going to drop? Maybe we can rotate some songs`. Not the most dramatic or newsworthy debate really. And then both Marcella and Add Some Music were added anyway along with other songs...

I think the exchange regarding “Marcella” was interesting not because it portrayed some huge issue or concern, but rather because Mike’s reaction was one of puzzlement or, arguably, very mild resistance. It was simply a reminder that these guys hadn’t worked together in ages and in all those intervening years, had developed disparate ways of looking at things and doing things. It doesn’t mean Mike is resistant to “rarities” in the setlist. I think he just has everything to do with the BB’s already set in his mind a certain way. He knows what he thinks are the “classics”, and he’ll add off-kilter, non-hit stuff based on his own criteria. He’ll maybe do “Betsy” because Scott Totten likes it (and maybe Mike likes the song because it’s an older one). He’ll do “Goin’ to the Beach” because it was brought to this attention on the boxed set, and it’s a simple song about the beach or whatever. He’ll do “All This is That” because of the TM connection and whatnot.

But if someone else suggests a song that hasn’t probably often sprung to Mike’s mind in literally decades, his brain will process that differently because its suggestion is based on someone else’s motivations or ideas. Again, all back to not being used to the live show being a collaborative process in any way where he isn’t final arbiter. Again, I’m sure Totten and others have suggested tracks on tour with Mike’s band. Mike then says yay or nay.

It probably is a bit like a manager mentality, where the manager will more easily approve something if it is his or her idea.

Al’s recent interview likening it to a divorced couple being put back together is perhaps apt to some degree. You have to all of a sudden account for what the other person likes or dislikes, and you have to compromise. The other person has also developed some new or different attitudes during the years you’ve been divorced, making it more awkward. C50 Brian wasn’t like the 80’s/90’s Brian who just sat in occasionally, played some keyboards, and sang the opening lines to “Sloop John B” and bridge to “Surfer Girl.”

C50 was a compromise all around. As the scheduled dates neared the end, I think those both willing and unwilling to continue spoke to who was willing to continue to compromise and who doesn’t enjoy compromising.

[Robbie Mac]

One story of Brian suggesting “Marcella”, and the C50 band being comprised mostly of Brian’s touring band does not mean Brian was “running” the C50 tour or “in control.” Mike got over half of his band into the C50 band too (four out of seven, five out of seven if you want to count Bonhomme being on the road crew). The proportionately larger number of Brian’s band has as much to do with Mike having a smaller, leaner band to pull from in the first place.

Hmmm...

Mike
Bruce
john Cowsill
Scott Totten
And BonHomme as tour manager. That makes five. And Christian was part of the opening act on a few dates making six.

[Mr. Cohen]

I thought Mike's reaction to "Summer's Gone" in Rolling Stone said a lot about his viewpoint of the band.

"It's brilliant, beautiful, but I didn't write it, so it doesn't have that silver cloud on the cumulus nimbus," he says. "It's more cumulus than I probably would do."

Mike probably thinks he's earned the right to the run the Beach Boys at this point. Sure, Brian wrote the hits in the '60s, but from Mike's perspective, Brian slacked off as a Beach Boy for decades while Mike busted his butt to keep the band at a high level, even scoring a #1 without Brian. He's earned the right to call the shots. I believe Mike would be more than happy to accept Brian into the band, if you will, but only if Brian takes a backseat. Let Mike write the lyrics to any new songs, collaborate on the songwriting process. Let Mike pick the set lists, the venues, and modes of travel.

Of course, if you're Brian, you've got this guy making tons of money off of melodies you mostly wrote telling you how your legacy and career should be presented. So it's easy to see why there'd be friction.

[Mikie]

The fairgrounds problem: if you care to check my site, you'll find The Beach Boys were playing county fairs back in the early sixties. It's not a purely post-Carl phenomenon.

It's over and will never happen again, and all the opinions, hot air and flat out drivel spouted here won't change that. You can argue that Custer made a huge error leaving the Gatling guns behind and ignored the advice of his guides, and likely he did, but the fact is, he still died at Little Big Horn.

I hope Dove Nested Tower doesn't read that.  He'll cry.

[Pretty Funky]

I think the RS story mentioned has been taken a bit out of context in this thread. The new songs or Marcella suggestion was made supposedly by 'his family'. If that means his wife, kid's, managers or band and himself, is not made clear.


Wilson is on his third Miller Lite by the time he brings up what's really on his mind: the set list for tomorrow's concert. "Oh, Michael," he says, faux-casually, shifting uncomfortably to face Love.

"Yes, sir?"

"I have feedback from my family," Wilson continues. "They want new songs."

Love grins, in a way that could be confused with a smirk. "Like what, cuz?"

"I was thinking ‘Marcella,' " Wilson blurts, referring to a great but obscure 1972 track he wrote about his favorite masseuse.

"Whaaaaat?" Love yells.

Wilson, never one to embrace conflict, bravely perseveres: " ‘Marcella' 's pretty cool, Mike." He sings the song's first lines, "Hey, hey, Marcella!"

Love: "What are we gonna cut?"

Wilson: "Well . . ."

Love: "Maybe we can alternate songs."

Wilson: "Yah, OK, all right, whatever."



Reading the first page of the story it came up at a light hearted meal. Just to refresh, the first discussion between Brian and Mike is this...


'Hey, Wilson," says Mike Love, placing his hand gently on Brian Wilson's forearm. "Hey, Love," says Wilson, brightly, as his cousin slides into the booth next to him. "You were great last night," Love says. "Animated. Ani-fuckin'-mated." Wilson beams. "Gracias, amigo. Our harmonies – we sound good together."

Hardly negative and sounds like they were having a good night out.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/the-beach-boys-last-wave-20120621

[Pretty Funky]

It may be that Marcella was genuinely a big issue on tour (perhaps some of the insiders could elaborate) but it doesn`t seem like a huge thing in the article. `What are we going to drop? Maybe we can rotate some songs`. Not the most dramatic or newsworthy debate really. And then both Marcella and Add Some Music were added anyway along with other songs...

I think the exchange regarding “Marcella” was interesting not because it portrayed some huge issue or concern, but rather because Mike’s reaction was one of puzzlement or, arguably, very mild resistance. It was simply a reminder that these guys hadn’t worked together in ages and in all those intervening years, had developed disparate ways of looking at things and doing things. It doesn’t mean Mike is resistant to “rarities” in the setlist. I think he just has everything to do with the BB’s already set in his mind a certain way. He knows what he thinks are the “classics”, and he’ll add off-kilter, non-hit stuff based on his own criteria. He’ll maybe do “Betsy” because Scott Totten likes it (and maybe Mike likes the song because it’s an older one). He’ll do “Goin’ to the Beach” because it was brought to this attention on the boxed set, and it’s a simple song about the beach or whatever. He’ll do “All This is That” because of the TM connection and whatnot.

But if someone else suggests a song that hasn’t probably often sprung to Mike’s mind in literally decades, his brain will process that differently because its suggestion is based on someone else’s motivations or ideas. Again, all back to not being used to the live show being a collaborative process in any way where he isn’t final arbiter. Again, I’m sure Totten and others have suggested tracks on tour with Mike’s band. Mike then says yay or nay.

It probably is a bit like a manager mentality, where the manager will more easily approve something if it is his or her idea.

Al’s recent interview likening it to a divorced couple being put back together is perhaps apt to some degree. You have to all of a sudden account for what the other person likes or dislikes, and you have to compromise. The other person has also developed some new or different attitudes during the years you’ve been divorced, making it more awkward. C50 Brian wasn’t like the 80’s/90’s Brian who just sat in occasionally, played some keyboards, and sang the opening lines to “Sloop John B” and bridge to “Surfer Girl.”

C50 was a compromise all around. As the scheduled dates neared the end, I think those both willing and unwilling to continue spoke to who was willing to continue to compromise and who doesn’t enjoy compromising.

I think another point to note. Sure, Mike's group has upped its game with its rarities but its unlikely their groups ever went to the others shows to judge the reaction some of these songs got or how they were performed. WE did. Marcella has been a well received staple of Brian's for years but Mike may not have had a clue.