Brian's Stock Continues To Rise

[The Shift]

With thanks.

[job]

And one last time:  I'm not going to apologize for simply asking questions.  I am not going to apologize for defending myself when people unjustly jumped down my throat.  So either be angry or get over it, but the Lord of the Flies mentality is getting old.

[guitarfool2002]

And one last time:  I'm not going to apologize for simply asking questions.  I am not going to apologize for defending myself when people unjustly jumped down my throat.  So either be angry or get over it, but the Lord of the Flies mentality is getting old.

The opportunities were given several times, it didn't need to be in the form of an apology, but at least an acknowledgement that maybe it had gone too far. Since that seems to be too much to ask, despite the fact that doing so either on page one or here on page 6 could have helped smooth things out and perhaps create a sense that at least "we're good", this cannot and will not continue.

And saying "get over it" is the tipping point. Officially.

[bgas]

Bye job

[Wirestone]

Well, this was real.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm mostly offended because I thought that I was the Cliff Clavin of the board. Or, at least, Lilith.

[Debbie Keil-Leavitt]

Thanks Guitar Fool for taking this further, necessary step re: Job.  I believe this Board does have the minimum requirement of being an adult, so...

[Niko]

Now he'll never get those unsurpassed masters CDs

[Robbie Mac]

Great post guitarfool!

I guess respect for distinguished guests is far too complex a concept for some here to handle. There is nothing wrong with questioning these insiders, there's something wrong when you question them in a prickish way.

We're incredibly lucky that insiders like Ray want to post here, so let's try leave the petulant "get over yourself" comments off the board...m'kay?

I asked questions.  Ray and his minions here answered them in a prickish way.  I didn't even state an opinion until I got disrespectful responses from that "honoured guest" and his minions.  You and Mikie should really go back and read chronologically.

If this is the level of respect, or lack thereof, that "honoured guests" give us commoners who worship them and spend our money on them, then who needs them?

M'kay?

Reading your recent posts, strikes me you've forfeited any right to respect here by your aggressive, and incidentally inaccurate, postings. Of all who post here, Ray knows, because he was there. Of course, he has his own point of view - don't we all ? - but if he says something is so, it is SO. He has no minions, and certainly isn't Melinda's lapdog/mouthpiece.

My suggestion to making this forum a better place is your absence.

This from the Cliff Claven of the board.  LOL.

Nice to see that Gary from Gary's Olde Town Tavern gave you the night off.

[The Heartical Don]

Great post guitarfool!

I guess respect for distinguished guests is far too complex a concept for some here to handle. There is nothing wrong with questioning these insiders, there's something wrong when you question them in a prickish way.

We're incredibly lucky that insiders like Ray want to post here, so let's try leave the petulant "get over yourself" comments off the board...m'kay?

I asked questions.  Ray and his minions here answered them in a prickish way.  I didn't even state an opinion until I got disrespectful responses from that "honoured guest" and his minions.  You and Mikie should really go back and read chronologically.

If this is the level of respect, or lack thereof, that "honoured guests" give us commoners who worship them and spend our money on them, then who needs them?

M'kay?

Reading your recent posts, strikes me you've forfeited any right to respect here by your aggressive, and incidentally inaccurate, postings. Of all who post here, Ray knows, because he was there. Of course, he has his own point of view - don't we all ? - but if he says something is so, it is SO. He has no minions, and certainly isn't Melinda's lapdog/mouthpiece.

My suggestion to making this forum a better place is your absence.

This from the Cliff Claven of the board.  LOL.

Nice to see that Gary from Gary's Olde Town Tavern gave you the night off.

Well, we do already have a Cliff Clavin... can I be Norm then? Who's going to the Hungry Heifer with me tonight?

[Andrew G. Doe]

And one last time:  I'm not going to apologize for simply asking questions.  I am not going to apologize for defending myself when people unjustly jumped down my throat.  So either be angry or get over it, but the Lord of the Flies mentality is getting old.

Seems he forgot the third option... 

[Nicko1234]

If Job has been banned then that would seem a great shame. He has only ever posted informed and thoughtful posts about the group in the past and is certainly a diehard and knowledgeable fan.

This thread is trivial in comparison to what many other posters, myself very probably included, have contributed over the years.

[Jay]

I think Mikie hit the nail on the head a few pages back, regarding the "How do you know?" question. Let us not forget that it's not easy to tell emotion and inflection over a message board. The question asked by job may well have been a genuine, well meaning question of asking if or how Ray knew something as an actual fact, or just opinion. To others, it read as an aggressive attack. It seems to me that job's first big "mistake" was not knowing who Ray is, and having the guts to question him on something. To be honest, I didn't actually know who Ray was either until somebody informed me via pm that he is an "insider". I do know and understand the fact that certain members here should at times be shown a little more respect than others. After all, these people occasionally go out of their way to give us information we might normally not be able to have access to. But I also see an all to frequent "Us versus them" attitude. Let's not forget that we have all been a noob fan at one time or another, and we all can't know when a certain person has "ties" to parties involved that we don't, and that their word and knowledge on something is absolute fact, and is not to be questioned. Now having said all that, I do agree that job's posts about Ray's "minions", and saying things like "who needs them" was way out of line and inappropriate. But I do understand job's initial anger at the attitude given him way back at the beginning of this thread.

This place really gives me a headache at times. *sigh*

[Ang Jones]

I wouldn't describe some of his posts in this thread as either informed or thoughtful. Some of the bits that particularly annoyed me have already been quoted - don't want to give them another airing! But he was warned several times and politely.

The 'how do you know?' thing - it may not have been meant rudely but pretty easy to word it in a better way. In any case, and sorry for repeating myself here, it seems pretty obvious to me from the fact that Mike didn't give this as one of his several reasons for the end of the C50 that Melinda was not the one to blame.  

[Nicko1234]

I wouldn't describe some of his posts in this thread as either informed or thoughtful. Some of the bits that particularly annoyed me have already been quoted - don't want to give them another airing! But he was warned several times and politely.

The 'how do you know?' thing - it may not have been meant rudely but pretty easy to word it in a better way. In any case, and sorry for repeating myself here, it seems pretty obvious to me from the fact that Mike didn't give this as one of his several reasons for the end of the C50 that Melinda was not the one to blame.  

Nobody described them like that.

[rab2591]

I'm sorry, but questions like "Really? Did you go to every C50 show?" are dripping with sarcasm. I've mentioned that Pet Sounds is the greatest album of all time. It's fairly obvious that I'm stating my opinion, and no one ever asked me "Really? Have you listened to every album ever made?" because it's a pointless, sarcastic question. I don't care if you're talking to an insider or an outsider, it's just a rude way to talk to someone.

Not only that, but continuously pissing off three respected posters (including a moderator) isn't the best way to avoid getting banned.

[Ang Jones]

I'm sorry, but questions like "Really? Did you go to every C50 show?" are dripping with sarcasm. I've mentioned that Pet Sounds is the greatest album of all time. It's fairly obvious that I'm stating my opinion, and no one ever asked me "Really? Have you listened to every album ever made?" because it's a pointless, sarcastic question. I don't care if you're talking to an insider or an outsider, it's just a rude way to talk to someone.

Not only that, but continuously pissing off three respected posters (including a moderator) isn't the best way to avoid getting banned.

Agreed.

I wouldn't describe some of his posts in this thread as either informed or thoughtful. Some of the bits that particularly annoyed me have already been quoted - don't want to give them another airing! But he was warned several times and politely.

Nobody described them like that.

I didn't write that they had.

[Sheriff John Stone]

If Job has been banned then that would seem a great shame. He has only ever posted informed and thoughtful posts about the group in the past and is certainly a diehard and knowledgeable fan.

I agree with you, not only for the reasons you stated, but because this ban reaches new heights of hypocrisy.

In the God Only Knows thread, guitarfool2002 disagreed with a poster's opinion and wrote, "When you post bullshit, and that's what it is...you'll get called out and rightfully so." guitarfool2002 also wrote, "To put it bluntly, you either don't know what the f*** you're talking about, or you're doing this deliberately to provoke and basically sh*t on a positive thread."

So, calling a person's post "bullshit", telling them that they "don't know what the f***" they're talking about, and accusing them of "sh*tting" on a thread is acceptable on this board? And that came after he referred to the person's posts as "clueless" and "asinine". And this comes from the person who banned job?

And speaking of "provoke", it seems to be forgotten or overlooked that job's "Cliff Claven" comment was in response to The Legendary AGD's statement to job, "My suggestion to making this forum a better place is your absence." So guitarfool2002 was outraged with job's choice to respond with the Cliff Claven post, but no outrage whatsoever at one poster telling another poster that the board would be better without them. On the God Only Knows thread, The Legendary AGD also responded to another poster with this, "You have no idea how glad I am that I only "know" you and your ilk via the medium of this forum." Would you consider that provoking? Where is the outrage with that kind of statement?

Of course there is no outrage. The Lengendary AGD is The Lengendary AGD (and that's not meant as a shot at AGD) and job is just...job. I/we don't need any more lectures about the treatment of honored guests, and many of them with their "do you know who I am?" attitudes. I'm not including Ray in that group. Ray "gets it" when it comes to posting and responding on message boards. Ray is a big enough man to handle what is thrown at him. And, before what I say gets twisted (and it will), I'm in no way suggesting that Ray deserved job's posts. This isn't an issue about honored guests, it's an issue about the treatment of non-honored guests. It would be nice if those who are outraged at the likes of job's posts, and are calling for his ban, or actually banning him, would take a look at their own posts, their own choice of words, and lack of respect for others, even if they're not honored guests, and most importantly, even if you don't agree with them.

Maybe there should be some special rules and guidelines for the board - drawn up by guitarfool2002? - on how to treat and respect the different posters. THIS poster will receive THIS treatment, but THAT poster, well, THAT poster will receive THAT treatment - based on whether we agree with what they posted, of course. I'm not holding out too much hope for that, however. You won't get a Christmas card from Brian Wilson that way.

[Andrew G. Doe]

As I'm not an Honoured Guest, I guess I'm exempt from all that. 

[Shady]

You deserve your honoured guest title back, AGD

[The Shift]

You deserve your honoured guest title back, AGD

… but first you've got to change your name to "The Lengendary AGD"

[guitarfool2002]

To "Sheriff John Stone":

I hope you took the time to read through each of my posts in this thread. I outlined and addressed the same issues you brought up in your post above. I hope you took the time to note that there were at least three opportunities given in the form of suggestions in my posts to at least try to extend a handshake and make things right to move it forward. Those attempts were met with hostility and more anger. Repeatedly, I held off, or held back from direct challenges, insults, finger-wagging and saying "you MUST do this" and whatever else...and the soft approach did not work. I tried to be patient, I tried to give numerous openings to at least try to "make nice", and it got thrown back in my face, not only by those involved but by you as well. Maybe I'm patient to a fault, maybe I think offering a second or third chance is the most fair way to deal with these things...perhaps I'm naive that way.

I also specifically addressed the issue of what basically amounts to me sometimes being a hothead in debates and discussions. I admit that, I gladly apologize and take the responsibility when I go too far or when someone gets hurt by it. Those apologies are not always publicly posted on the board, either, especially when i feel I really got too heated in these issues.

I'll admit, there are discussions where I get too heated up, I get too much into the debate, I might use stronger wording than necessary. However, and if this is hypocrisy than I'll shoulder that too, this is and can be pretty standard practice in everyday life. People have debates, discussions, negotiations, and things get heated. I've seen it personally in classrooms, in offices and conference rooms, in various businesses where I wasn't even involved, whatever the case. I've seen classroom discussions turn very heated, much like this board, when I was in college. Mostly over music, ironically. A friend who was working for a Master's degree was in an advanced class where two of his fellow scholars just about came to blows over a disagreement on a Bach analysis! No joke.

But those are done in the heat of the debate, right? There is a dividing line between throwing out some choice words during a debate or discussion and smearing mud on the person you're debating, or effectively spitting in their face and getting too "personal".

That's the line that doesn't get crossed, and when it does, the debate or discussion no longer exists and it becomes a battle.

I do not "battle" on this board, I don't want to see anything like was seen in this thread ever again, and the only reason why I'm answering your challenges to me are to set the record straight and move forward.

One last point, Sheriff. Since you quoted my comments in the "God Only Knows BBC" thread to suggest I'm a hypocrite, would you consider answering the direct question I asked you in that same thread which you seem to have either missed or ignored. I'll repost it, verbatim, from that discussion:

By the way, did you feel the same way about "OldSurferDude" and how he posted *his* opinions all over the board? Or is there a different standard based on content and message?

Sheriff, should we reinstate OldSurferDude then, for the same criteria you listed in your post?

[Nicko1234]

Looking back over this thread again, I have to say that what has been said is certainly much tamer than in hundreds of other threads in the past. I`m certainly not saying that everything has been right but I think it is who the comments have been directed at that has been of much more importance than what was said. As Ray requested not to be an honored guest, he presumably wants to be treated like any other poster which makes it all slightly ironic.

Personally I think that banning genuine fans from the board should be a last resort and it is pretty ugly that some posters call for someone to be banned or rejoice in their banning.

There is no comparison with OldSurferDude as his inflammatory posts came over a period of several years.

[ontor pertawst]

It's wonderful... sob...seeing Brian's solo career... sniff... continue to flourish... choke...in a way few of us could have imagined 20 years ago.  

Say, how about we hit pause on the nitpicking. The fella explained himself in excruciating detail and you guys just want to roll around in it indefinitely. I guess it goes good with a lazy Saturday morning or something.

[guitarfool2002]

Looking back over this thread again, I have to say that what has been said is certainly much tamer than in hundreds of other threads in the past. I`m certainly not saying that everything has been right but I think it is who the comments have been directed at that has been of much more importance than what was said. As Ray requested not to be an honored guest, he presumably wants to be treated like any other poster which makes it all slightly ironic.

Personally I think that banning genuine fans from the board should be a last resort and it is pretty ugly that some posters call for someone to be banned or rejoice in their banning.

There is no comparison with OldSurferDude as his inflammatory posts came over a period of several years.

Did OldSurferDude's inflammatory posts target or try to smear any individual posters here in a direct, personal way, or was it just the content and/or volume of his posts that eventually led to the ban?