gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
680598 Posts in 27600 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 28, 2024, 08:54:50 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 ... 13 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Beach Boys Pile Up In California  (Read 63960 times)
Howie Edelson
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 672


View Profile
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2014, 08:47:33 AM »

in regards to money --

I just want to add, that THE WHO, for example, keep their brand alive and frequently tours -- like "The Beach Boys" -- but they also play high profile gigs like the Super Bowl and the Olympics.

Now, no one is going to to be hiring the BB's for the Super Bowl -- but the Olympics is a PERFECT venue for the band's music. These events result in HUGE sales spikes (look at the numbers they got during the gig on QVC). Stuff like that sells product and makes money -- it's not just money for gigs that we're talking about. But the Olympics only happens with the full band. Mike and Bruce and/or BAD&B don't cut it. 

I lay you odds that in 3 years time the BEATLES' solo catalogues (between '70 and '75, at least) are meshed together in an effort to keep that music sellable.
It's about promotion. Getting airplay. Selling product. Royalties, mechanicals -- there's obscene money being lost by the minute.
Logged
Theydon Bois
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 246


View Profile
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2014, 08:50:59 AM »

I lay you odds that in 3 years time the BEATLES' solo catalogues (between '70 and '75, at least) are meshed together in an effort to keep that music sellable.

Already tiny steps are being taken in that direction:
http://www.thebeatles.com/news/4-free-itunes-ep-solo-brilliance-john-paul-george-ringo
Logged
Nicko1234
Guest
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2014, 08:56:42 AM »

But isn't the main point that those sort of things *weren't* being pursued because of a lack of management? I think the band members mentioned a few other big offers for later in the year, mainly in Brian's LA Times letter. But I don't think there is a suggestion that there was an offer on the table for a Vegas residency (and if there was, then that obviously makes them look even more like idiots). I think the idea is that their lack of ability to either be more unified or at least pursue management that will keep them more unified from a business perspective has dictated they don't have management that will pursue offers for things like a Vegas run, and don't have the type of networked industry management that would be getting offers.

If the word in the industry is that the BB's don't have their s**t together, that probably doesn't help either. And Howie is right, as much as people want to play that populist card and all of that and talk about how the audience at the Cleveland Rib Cook Off is what's *truly* important, for whatever an "industry" reputation is worth, the BB's have been seen as a second tier act for years (albeit a solid, known commodity that still brings money in), then got a HUGE boost in perceived and real reputation for C50, and then shot it all to fudge when they very publicly looked like industry newbies that didn't have their s**t together.

The group needs not only a good manager who knows what they're doing and can keep everybody happy. They need someone from the OUTSIDE, someone INDEPENDENT. One of the problems has long been that when they do get someone who is seemingly a manager type, that manager is brought in by a particular person, and/or has either a perceived or true bias towards specific members, if not their own personal motives. That's the difference between, say Allen Klein and Neil Aspinall.

There is surely an Aspinall/Geurcio type out there that could do these things for the band. As Howie has alluded to, even if you strip away all the morals and ethics and warm fuzzies and just look at the cold hard cash, while it may be true Mike could have made less on C50 than he did during a year of his own touring, they surely could have continued making even MORE money had they kept the reunion going. They could have been making more money for doing less work. Still playing to millions, raking in the cash, and having even more time to do their own solo albums, or group albums, or side projects, or even more corporate gigs on the side, or whatever.

I completely agree that the band have needed a manager (or maybe even dictator) for about 40 years but I seriously doubt there is a person alive who could fill that role now.

I think it was Timothy White who said that even back in the mid-70s it was obvious when observing them that they were 5 very disparate people who all had their own ideas of what they wanted to do. If you add on all of the lawyers, wives, managers, publicists etc. that are around the band then I think it would be impossible for any manager to satisfy all of these people and be seen as completely impartial.

Obviously The Beatles have had a manager unifying things but that job is probably a heck of a lot easier when the band aren`t still touring 100 dates a year (and aren`t all borderline insane of course  Wink ).
Logged
Howie Edelson
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 672


View Profile
« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2014, 08:58:00 AM »

A no brainer.


http://beatleyearsandbeyond.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/The-Beatles-Green-Album-1971-1974-Front-Cover-22212.jpg

http://www.freecovers.net/preview/1/290d51d2ebc944b9bb61da2a859e1265/big.jpg
Logged
Nicko1234
Guest
« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2014, 09:01:46 AM »

in regards to money --

I just want to add, that THE WHO, for example, keep their brand alive and frequently tours -- like "The Beach Boys" -- but they also play high profile gigs like the Super Bowl and the Olympics.

Now, no one is going to to be hiring the BB's for the Super Bowl -- but the Olympics is a PERFECT venue for the band's music. These events result in HUGE sales spikes (look at the numbers they got during the gig on QVC). Stuff like that sells product and makes money -- it's not just money for gigs that we're talking about. But the Olympics only happens with the full band. Mike and Bruce and/or BAD&B don't cut it. 

I lay you odds that in 3 years time the BEATLES' solo catalogues (between '70 and '75, at least) are meshed together in an effort to keep that music sellable.
It's about promotion. Getting airplay. Selling product. Royalties, mechanicals -- there's obscene money being lost by the minute.

Which Olympics?
Logged
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2014, 09:22:53 AM »

in regards to money --

I just want to add, that THE WHO, for example, keep their brand alive and frequently tours -- like "The Beach Boys" -- but they also play high profile gigs like the Super Bowl and the Olympics.

Now, no one is going to to be hiring the BB's for the Super Bowl -- but the Olympics is a PERFECT venue for the band's music. These events result in HUGE sales spikes (look at the numbers they got during the gig on QVC). Stuff like that sells product and makes money -- it's not just money for gigs that we're talking about. But the Olympics only happens with the full band. Mike and Bruce and/or BAD&B don't cut it. 

I lay you odds that in 3 years time the BEATLES' solo catalogues (between '70 and '75, at least) are meshed together in an effort to keep that music sellable.
It's about promotion. Getting airplay. Selling product. Royalties, mechanicals -- there's obscene money being lost by the minute.

Which Olympics?

I think you’re taking Howie’s suggestions too literally. It’s not as though a single Olympics show would save their career, or that there has to be an ironclad, standing offer to a Vegas residency. It’s more like: Here’s a running list of a bunch of stuff they should have or could have done had their had their s**t together, and it would have all resulted in tons of synergy or whatever one wants to call it. Better management means more touring, which means high profile booking (Olympics, Grammys, whatever), which leads to more sales, which leads to more touring, which all leads to more money. The longer it lasts, the more “Mike Love actually isn’t a d**k” articles we would start seeing, and so on.

But Howie is right, Mike is so trained on doing his own thing, I don’t know if the richest, brightest, sharpest concert promoter of all time could convince him to do something else. Read the scattered articles and books and interviews that get into the band’s mid-late 90’s run. If those are to be believed, Mike put a LOT of effort and leg work into arranging everything just right so he could run the thing the way he wanted, with or without any other Beach Boys. So look at that amount of effort back in the late 90’s, couple that with 15 years of not having to answer to anyone, then add to it that he now has tried a “reunion” and clearly disliked many elements of it, and it seems pretty difficult to dream up a scenario where they’re going to convince Mike to “do it again.” The best bet is probably another short-term tour (probably shorter than C50), possibly an album, where Mike can just pop in and out and get the things he wants out of them (publicity, writing with Brian, etc.).

Otherwise, the only way things are going to change in reference to the full band is if Brian and Al make a strong play to reassess the trademark/licensing situation. But the clock is ticking concerning their age and longevity, and I would venture to guess that even if Brian, Al, and Carl’s estate all agreed to change the assignment of the license, it could be challenged (however legitimately or frivolously) and get tied up in court for several years.
Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2014, 09:36:45 AM »

Howie spelled it out in terms of booking, demand, etc. Across the entertainment industry, there is and always has been a sense of "strike while the iron is hot", and as the summer rolled into fall in 2012 the Beach Boys as an in-demand touring act were holding as hot of an iron as they had held for decades. There was demand for more gigs, not just more gigs but gigs on the level of if not greater than the venues they had already been playing that summer. The press was great, the returns were great, the tour was placed that year among the most successful in the industry. For all the behind the scenes details going on, the Beach Boys were as marketable as a touring live show as they had been for decades.

They could have leveraged that demand into something beyond September 2012, and the booking agents and venues were calling.

But, the choice was made.

Again on something Howie mentioned regarding booking acts, consider the old Johnny Carson show, at least up to 1990 or so. If a "new" comedian went on Carson's show and killed with their routine, to the point where Johnny was either cracking up at his desk or even to the point where Johnny would break from the script and invite this unknown comedian over to the desk to talk, that comedian's career changed instantly. And the way it changed was that his or her agent would immediately be hit with calls from venues all over the country wanting to sign contracts to appear, and book gigs "while the iron was hot".

That comedian who may have been ready to do one-nighters at 150-seat clubs at various suburban outposts off the beaten path would now be fielding offers to play Vegas, to come to LA to meet with a network or film producers, getting offers to open for a major arena tour or traveling show...well beyond playing a Wednesday night comedy revue at "Mr. Ha Ha's" in Boise.

Consider when those offers came in, after cracking up Carson or whatever the case, those earlier bookings could and would be bought out just as Howie said regarding similar smaller-to-midsize bookings in the music biz. Unless they were literally mad, no working comedian would turn down a two-week stretch in Vegas or a string of network meetings in LA out of loyalty to play a small club in Anywhere, USA that had been booked months in advance. Loyalty doesn't pay the bills. Striking while the iron is hot and leveraging that publicity, especially after making Johnny Carson double over in laughter during your television debut, is what makes money.

Just consider the choices made as C50 was making waves in the industry and leading to more high-profile offers to play various venues, and that is the head-scratcher for me.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Nicko1234
Guest
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2014, 09:46:43 AM »

I think you’re taking Howie’s suggestions too literally. It’s not as though a single Olympics show would save their career, or that there has to be an ironclad, standing offer to a Vegas residency. It’s more like: Here’s a running list of a bunch of stuff they should have or could have done had their had their s**t together, and it would have all resulted in tons of synergy or whatever one wants to call it. Better management means more touring, which means high profile booking (Olympics, Grammys, whatever), which leads to more sales, which leads to more touring, which all leads to more money. The longer it lasts, the more “Mike Love actually isn’t a d**k” articles we would start seeing, and so on.

But Howie is right, Mike is so trained on doing his own thing, I don’t know if the richest, brightest, sharpest concert promoter of all time could convince him to do something else. Read the scattered articles and books and interviews that get into the band’s mid-late 90’s run. If those are to be believed, Mike put a LOT of effort and leg work into arranging everything just right so he could run the thing the way he wanted, with or without any other Beach Boys. So look at that amount of effort back in the late 90’s, couple that with 15 years of not having to answer to anyone, then add to it that he now has tried a “reunion” and clearly disliked many elements of it, and it seems pretty difficult to dream up a scenario where they’re going to convince Mike to “do it again.” The best bet is probably another short-term tour (probably shorter than C50), possibly an album, where Mike can just pop in and out and get the things he wants out of them (publicity, writing with Brian, etc.).

Otherwise, the only way things are going to change in reference to the full band is if Brian and Al make a strong play to reassess the trademark/licensing situation. But the clock is ticking concerning their age and longevity, and I would venture to guess that even if Brian, Al, and Carl’s estate all agreed to change the assignment of the license, it could be challenged (however legitimately or frivolously) and get tied up in court for several years.


Well the idea of them having a manager figure who could please everyone is great in theory. But it just hasn`t been a part of the group`s world for many decades and it is not going to start happening now.

Obviously if the group had stayed together then they would have had more power and could have played more prestigious gigs. But the same could be said for so many other acts. The Police, Led Zeppelin, Genesis, Monty Python etc. could all be making so much money if they were still together but...they are human beings.

Sure Mike wants to have things his own way. But that is one of the aspects that makes it so amazing that the C50 tour happened at all and that it was so successful.

Mike`s organization and Brian`s organization obviously have completely different ways of working and ideas about tour dates, venues, styles of touring, recording etc. The fact that they compromised on all of these things for a wonderful year should be seen as a positive.

The idea that they could have done this every year just isn`t realistic imo no matter who the manager is. The evidence for that being that history shows that the group are unmanageable.
Logged
donald
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2485



View Profile
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2014, 09:52:45 AM »

I suspect that Mike has carefully, over the years,  honed the act he wants to have, just the way he likes it, with his band and concert management people serving his needs, step by step, tweaking contract riders  on an ongoing basis so Mike is happy and comfortable to continue touring without dealing with large numbers of egos and managers representing various people.
Call it what you will. 
Logged
Howie Edelson
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 672


View Profile
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2014, 09:56:00 AM »

Donald is 1000% correct.
And THAT is the bottom line.
Logged
ontor pertawst
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2575


L♡VE ALWAYS WINS


View Profile WWW
« Reply #60 on: September 30, 2014, 09:58:37 AM »

Monty Python etc. could all be making so much money if they were still together but...they are human beings.

The same Monty Python that was convinced to do a reunion and concert film earlier this summer to clear up their debts and make a shitload of money? Seemed to work ok for them and they even managed to handle the "Set end date" with a little bit of dignity.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 10:00:04 AM by ontor pertawst » Logged
Nicko1234
Guest
« Reply #61 on: September 30, 2014, 10:01:18 AM »

I suspect that Mike has carefully, over the years,  honed the act he wants to have, just the way he likes it, with his band and concert management people serving his needs, step by step, tweaking contract riders  on an ongoing basis so Mike is happy and comfortable to continue touring without dealing with large numbers of egos and managers representing various people.
Call it what you will. 


Absolutely.

He is doing what he enjoys doing which is only natural.
Logged
Nicko1234
Guest
« Reply #62 on: September 30, 2014, 10:03:07 AM »

Monty Python etc. could all be making so much money if they were still together but...they are human beings.

The same Monty Python that was convinced to do a reunion and concert film earlier this summer to clear up their debts and make a shitload of money? Seemed to work ok for them and they even managed to handle the "Set end date" with a little bit of dignity.

Of course they handled the ending better. But the fact is they are not together anymore.

Now will their fans complain until the end of time that they should have continued together year after year? Or will they celebrate the fact that they reunited at all?

Time will tell...
Logged
Chocolate Shake Man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2871


View Profile
« Reply #63 on: September 30, 2014, 10:07:56 AM »

Actually I think it would be better if just Eric Idle and Neil Innes toured as Monty Python.
Logged
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #64 on: September 30, 2014, 10:11:31 AM »

Monty Python etc. could all be making so much money if they were still together but...they are human beings.

The same Monty Python that was convinced to do a reunion and concert film earlier this summer to clear up their debts and make a shitload of money? Seemed to work ok for them and they even managed to handle the "Set end date" with a little bit of dignity.

Of course they handled the ending better. But the fact is they are not together anymore.

Now will their fans complain until the end of time that they should have continued together year after year? Or will they celebrate the fact that they reunited at all?

Time will tell...

Some fans might be off-put if some of the Python guys wanted to do more gigs and one guy didn't, while simultaneously going back out and booking shows as Monty Python. That's a different scenario than an announced "farewell" tour.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 10:13:16 AM by HeyJude » Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
Niko
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1617



View Profile
« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2014, 10:34:14 AM »

Actually I think it would be better if just Eric Idle and Neil Innes toured as Monty Python.

I'd pay big money to meet them backstage!! Though I would be upset if I didn't get a USB drive with 2 Monty Python skits...
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 10:35:26 AM by Woodstock » Logged

ontor pertawst
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2575


L♡VE ALWAYS WINS


View Profile WWW
« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2014, 10:35:03 AM »

It'd be worth it just to watch the inevitable huge fight over the Rutles and Spamalot.

How many years have those two been feuding now? Whew. (Footnote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErCQ9nQAglg )

Maybe Neil Innes and Al Jardine can do a tour together and compare notes! Nik Turner can open for them.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 10:50:17 AM by ontor pertawst » Logged
Sheriff John Stone
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5309



View Profile
« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2014, 11:04:49 AM »

....the only way things are going to change in reference to the full band is if Brian and Al make a strong play to reassess the trademark/licensing situation.

Apparently, Brian must be OK with the way things are going. We know how Al feels because he continues to embarrass himself in public with his whining, instead of discussing the issues behind closed doors. Do you have any evidence or indication at all that Brian is making a strong play - or any play - to reassess the trademark/licensing situation?
Logged
CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5749



View Profile
« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2014, 11:35:55 AM »

....the only way things are going to change in reference to the full band is if Brian and Al make a strong play to reassess the trademark/licensing situation.

Apparently, Brian must be OK with the way things are going. We know how Al feels because he continues to embarrass himself in public with his whining, instead of discussing the issues behind closed doors. Do you have any evidence or indication at all that Brian is making a strong play - or any play - to reassess the trademark/licensing situation?

I don't think that Al is embarrassing himself by complaining publicly. He seems to level-headedly realize the lameness of the current situation, and who the primary culprit(s) are. I think he feels that he and Brian have suffered somewhat of an injustice. And do you think these guys actually are able to have proper adult communication skills? It's all passive aggressive moves, like Mike/Bruce not showing up at the C50 wrap party, etc.

I think if Al could discuss things behind closed doors (to any avail), he most certainly would. It certainly doesn't seem like Al has much option but to make his opinion known in public. Public opinion will probably largely be on his side in the end, and maybe Al hopes that things can possibly at some point shift things for the better by talking publicly. I certainly don't fault him for it. I don't think that most people would share your opinion that Al is publicly embarrassing himself.

Also - I cannot imagine that Brian or Al will ever make any kind of strong play to reassess the trademark/licensing situation. Mike's history of bullying legal tactics have probably scared off that from ever happening. Mike (I think) has much deeper pockets than Al (maybe in a similar ballpark as Brian?)... but either way, even if Brian/Al/Carl's estate were to be willing to give up their share of profits from M&B (unlikely), the bottom line is that it isn't worth it emotionally for a Brian in his 70s to get into a long protracted legal battle with Mike. And the legal fees would be crazy. And it would stretch on until they are all in their 80s. For that reason alone, it will never, ever happen, IMO.

Mike's actions imploding C50 were those of a frightened man, feeling threatened that he'd lose control; if he deemed it "worth it" to take the massive sh*tstorm of public fallout to get his M&B back and running, he proved right then and there that he will stop at nothing to keep M&B going at all costs, legal or otherwise. He's the BBs' Terminator. He will. not. stop. And all the other BBs know it.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 11:50:30 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2014, 11:46:43 AM »

....the only way things are going to change in reference to the full band is if Brian and Al make a strong play to reassess the trademark/licensing situation.

Apparently, Brian must be OK with the way things are going. We know how Al feels because he continues to embarrass himself in public with his whining, instead of discussing the issues behind closed doors. Do you have any evidence or indication at all that Brian is making a strong play - or any play - to reassess the trademark/licensing situation?

No. If you've followed these discussions, I've pointed out many times that there are no indications any such play to change the trademark setup is in evidence. That was the point of my comment. The only way to get the status quo to change is something along those lines, and that seems highly unlikely. (There was a brief period in the mid-2000's where such a play *may* have been briefly bandied about, although it may have been floated without having any real intention of following through. I also wouldn't be surprised if the reference in Brian's 2012 LA Times letter to discussing things among the "shareholders" may have indicated that he considered taking such steps for maybe five minutes.)

However, as has also been discussed in threads on these topics, these guys are all about greys and dichotomies and dysfunction. Brian simultaneously votes for Mike to have the license (or, more accurately, apparently voted once in 1998 and since then has only acted by *not acting*), but there is also an adversarial quality to some degree. For instance, I doubt there was zero politics at play when Brian got three or four Beach Boys on his tour last year in the aftermath of the demise of C50. The situation is such that these guys vote one way, and on occasion say things or act a way in direct opposition to their own vote.

I don't think Brian is "OK" with the way things are now in regards to Mike using the trademark. But he doesn't care enough about it, or for long enough, and/or doesn't have the willingness to undergo the steps it would take to change that.

If Brian hadn't gone alone with Mike having an exclusive license back in 1998 and in effect pretty much washing his hands of the whole thing, it may have been exceedingly easier in 2012 to exercise leverage to keep the reunion going. Who knows....

But back to the main question. Not acting on the license situation doesn't mean those not acting are okay with the current setup. It could mean that. Or it could mean they don't have the power or votes or leverage to change it. Or they do, but it's not worth the time, effort, money, etc.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 11:49:16 AM by HeyJude » Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2014, 11:50:07 AM »

It'd be worth it just to watch the inevitable huge fight over the Rutles and Spamalot.

How many years have those two been feuding now? Whew. (Footnote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErCQ9nQAglg )

Maybe Neil Innes and Al Jardine can do a tour together and compare notes! Nik Turner can open for them.

Al Jardine *did* appear in Innes' Rutles video for "Shangri La" in 1996 if I'm recalling correctly!
Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
Sheriff John Stone
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5309



View Profile
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2014, 11:52:38 AM »

....the only way things are going to change in reference to the full band is if Brian and Al make a strong play to reassess the trademark/licensing situation.

Apparently, Brian must be OK with the way things are going. We know how Al feels because he continues to embarrass himself in public with his whining, instead of discussing the issues behind closed doors. Do you have any evidence or indication at all that Brian is making a strong play - or any play - to reassess the trademark/licensing situation?

I don't think that Al is embarrassing himself by complaining publicly. He seems to level-headedly realize the lameness of the current situation, and who the primary culprit(s) are. I think he feels that he and Brian have suffered somewhat of an injustice. And do you think these guys actually are able to have proper adult communication skills? It's all passive aggressive moves, like Mike/Bruce not showing up at the C50 wrap party, etc.

I think if Al could discuss things behind closed doors (to any avail), he most certainly would. It certainly doesn't seem like Al has much option but to make his opinion known in public. Public opinion will probably largely be on his side in the end, and maybe Al hopes that things can possibly at some point shift things for the better by talking publicly. I certainly don't fault him for it. I don't think that most people would share your opinion that Al is publicly embarrassing himself.

Also - I cannot imagine that Brian or Al will ever make any kind of strong play to reassess the trademark/licensing situation. Mike's history of bullying legal tactics have probably scared off that from ever happening. Mike (I think) has much deeper pockets than Al (maybe in a similar ballpark as Brian?)... but either way, even if Brian/Al/Carl's estate were to be willing to give up their share of profits from M&B (unlikely), the bottom line is that it isn't worth it emotionally for a Brian in his 70s to get into a long protracted legal battle with Mike. And the legal fees would be crazy. And it would stretch on until they are all in their 80s. For that reason alone, it will never, ever happen, IMO.

No, I don't think these guys actually are able to have adult communication.

I think Al is wasting his time and embarrassing himself by making his opinion known in public because Mike Love could care less what the public thinks about the current set-up/license. Al is too dumb to realize that. But, Al does indeed have another option which is by consulting with his attorneys. That's the only way for any change to come about.

I do agree in that I cannot imagine Brian or Al making any kind of strong play, In Al's case, he won't be able to get another voter to side with him. In Brian's case (I'm going to use "they" whether it bothers some or not), it's not Mike's "bullying tactics' that they are afraid of. Simply, they don't want to work with Mike (in the studio or on the road) and they don't want to give up that check which just keeps coming and coming.
Logged
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2014, 11:54:45 AM »

Donald is 1000% correct.
And THAT is the bottom line.

And while this is a total rhetorical, semantic point, it's worth occasionally pointing out that there are a few guys in the music business who are honest about their motivations and will be honest and say they're old and stuck in their ways and don't want to have to answer to anybody.

I'd have a lot more respect if that was indeed the case with the BB's and the principles involved were honest about this and said so.

As I've often said, the Beach Boys are somewhat different than many other bands in that when other bands split or otherwise stop working together, they go off to solo gigs or other bands rather than having one member turn around and continue touring under the band's name the next day, leaving three other members who want to keep the entire band together in the dust.

Sadly, it would actually be less cruel irony if C50 had ended with everybody saying "F*** you!" and not wanting to work with any of each other. Then it would at least make more sense objectively why they couldn't keep it going.
Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
Sheriff John Stone
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5309



View Profile
« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2014, 12:00:35 PM »

....the only way things are going to change in reference to the full band is if Brian and Al make a strong play to reassess the trademark/licensing situation.

Apparently, Brian must be OK with the way things are going. We know how Al feels because he continues to embarrass himself in public with his whining, instead of discussing the issues behind closed doors. Do you have any evidence or indication at all that Brian is making a strong play - or any play - to reassess the trademark/licensing situation?
I don't think Brian is "OK" with the way things are now in regards to Mike using the trademark. But he doesn't care enough about it, or for long enough, and/or doesn't have the willingness to undergo the steps it would take to change that.

If Brian hadn't gone alone with Mike having an exclusive license back in 1998 and in effect pretty much washing his hands of the whole thing, it may have been exceedingly easier in 2012 to exercise leverage to keep the reunion going. Who knows....

But back to the main question. Not acting on the license situation doesn't mean those not acting are okay with the current setup. It could mean that. Or it could mean they don't have the power or votes or leverage to change it. Or they do, but it's not worth the time, effort, money, etc.

Your first two paragraphs - I agree with you 100%. I don't agree with your last paragraph. I have learned - and call me naive - that people will show how meaningful and important something or someone is to them by their actions....or lack of. To me, it looks like it's not worth the time, effort, money, etc. And now I'm going back to work so I can make some money! Shocked
Logged
CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5749



View Profile
« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2014, 12:04:29 PM »

....the only way things are going to change in reference to the full band is if Brian and Al make a strong play to reassess the trademark/licensing situation.

Apparently, Brian must be OK with the way things are going. We know how Al feels because he continues to embarrass himself in public with his whining, instead of discussing the issues behind closed doors. Do you have any evidence or indication at all that Brian is making a strong play - or any play - to reassess the trademark/licensing situation?

I don't think that Al is embarrassing himself by complaining publicly. He seems to level-headedly realize the lameness of the current situation, and who the primary culprit(s) are. I think he feels that he and Brian have suffered somewhat of an injustice. And do you think these guys actually are able to have proper adult communication skills? It's all passive aggressive moves, like Mike/Bruce not showing up at the C50 wrap party, etc.

I think if Al could discuss things behind closed doors (to any avail), he most certainly would. It certainly doesn't seem like Al has much option but to make his opinion known in public. Public opinion will probably largely be on his side in the end, and maybe Al hopes that things can possibly at some point shift things for the better by talking publicly. I certainly don't fault him for it. I don't think that most people would share your opinion that Al is publicly embarrassing himself.

Also - I cannot imagine that Brian or Al will ever make any kind of strong play to reassess the trademark/licensing situation. Mike's history of bullying legal tactics have probably scared off that from ever happening. Mike (I think) has much deeper pockets than Al (maybe in a similar ballpark as Brian?)... but either way, even if Brian/Al/Carl's estate were to be willing to give up their share of profits from M&B (unlikely), the bottom line is that it isn't worth it emotionally for a Brian in his 70s to get into a long protracted legal battle with Mike. And the legal fees would be crazy. And it would stretch on until they are all in their 80s. For that reason alone, it will never, ever happen, IMO.

No, I don't think these guys actually are able to have adult communication.

I think Al is wasting his time and embarrassing himself by making his opinion known in public because Mike Love could care less what the public thinks about the current set-up/license. Al is too dumb to realize that. But, Al does indeed have another option which is by consulting with his attorneys. That's the only way for any change to come about.

I do agree in that I cannot imagine Brian or Al making any kind of strong play, In Al's case, he won't be able to get another voter to side with him. In Brian's case (I'm going to use "they" whether it bothers some or not), it's not Mike's "bullying tactics' that they are afraid of. Simply, they don't want to work with Mike (in the studio or on the road) and they don't want to give up that check which just keeps coming and coming.

Al, whether or not it eventually "helps" his cause or not, is simply venting. And can you blame him? I cannot imagine what it must have been like to have been a bandmate with Mike Love for ~35+ years, and have things go down the way they did for Al, both in '98 and in '12. He's not perfect (nobody is), but I have lots of empathy for Al. Lots. I think he probably feels like he got sh*t on by an egomaniac. Those ain't kind words, but I'll bet that's precisely what he feels like inside.

And I think that Brian/Al would be down to work with Mike if it was with less demands by Mike. I think all the surviving members are willing to work with each other, but only the "versions" of each other that they find most fitting or comfortable to suit their own preference. I think Brian is down to work with a Mike who is a contributing member but not demanding all sorts of things. Where Mike can be utilized but outside collaborators are also part of the mix.  This is the way things were at varying points throughout the band's existence. And Mike wants a Brian who is willing to crank out hit after hit with Mike (proving Mike's essential importance) without outside interference.  This is also the way things were at varying points throughout the band's existence. But the people they want each other to be aren't the people they are today.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 12:31:00 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
gfx
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 ... 13 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 1.289 seconds with 23 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!