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Author Topic: Brian in 1977  (Read 26636 times)
♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
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« on: September 17, 2014, 02:26:35 PM »

Something that has always bugged me...
 Any theories on why Brian sided with Mike and Al in 1977 before the MIU sessions? Previously, he'd voted with Carl and Dennis, but all of a sudden that changed...
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 03:02:47 PM by ♯♫♩♬ » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2014, 02:35:38 PM »

Something that has always bugged me...
 Any theories on why Brian sided with Mike and Al in 1978 before MIU? Previously, he'd voted with Carl and Dennis, but all of a sudden that changed...

Mike found the key to the padlock on Brian's fridge that Marilyn had been hiding from him.

Fast forward two years and the result was very predictable....
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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2014, 02:35:57 PM »

I had always assumed it was because of Landy v.1 and money. I would like to hear a more authoritative answer as well.
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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2014, 02:37:35 PM »

I'd guess drugs had a lot to do with it. Maybe the post-Landy Brian wanted to stay clean (for a time anyway). And Carl and Dennis had their own substance issues, so maybe the more dynamic and lively Mike n Al faction swayed Brian. Money is never too far from decision making, so maybe also siding with Mike and Al represented the best prospect for bucks. The Mike-favoured retro 15BO made the top 10, whereas the Brian & Carl Love You album made no.56. Carl wasn't writing, Dennis was into his solo thing. And this was only 4 years after Endless Summer.
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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2014, 02:44:50 PM »

Something that has always bugged me...
 Any theories on why Brian sided with Mike and Al in 1978 before MIU? Previously, he'd voted with Carl and Dennis, but all of a sudden that changed...
I think summer 1977 is when Brian's vote departed from the previously solid Wilson voting block.
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« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2014, 02:51:03 PM »

I think the 1977 September break-up of the band and subsequent meeting at 10452 two weeks later had a lot to do with it.
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♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2014, 03:08:36 PM »

Ahhh...fixed my post. For some reason, though, I thought the fact that Brian gave his vote in favor of the TM Dynamic Duo led up to the fight, but I see I have it backwards. Still, though, what Brian side with Mike, considering the tension between the two (captured for posterity at the Largo show earlier in the year)?

Loaf, you touched on something that I was already thinking about...maybe by this point, Brian too preferred the idea of them being a retro band. It would make sense, because those were songs *he* had written and had become famous for.
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2014, 03:43:58 PM »

When Brian "came back" in 1976, and for many, many years after that, BB fans/media/band members/general music fans/record companies/etc were waiting for Brian to make deep, emotional, complex, progressive (?), artistic, hit, timeless - you fill in the adjective, but you know what I mean - music. And they are still waiting. MIU? L.A. Light Album? Keepin' The Summer Alive? BB1985? BW1988? Still Cruisin'? Imagination? GIOMH? What I Really Want For Christmas? That Lucky Old Sun? TWGMTR?

So, in 1977 Brian voted to make - and did make - more vintage Beach Boys-like music? A lot of it, actually. Maybe he knew something (about himself) that we didn't?
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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2014, 04:07:40 PM »

So "Adult Child", most of it written in '77, was vintage Beach Boys music, right Sheriff?
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2014, 04:09:06 PM »

Didn't the CBS contract signed in 1977 force him to side with Mike and Al?
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2014, 04:11:41 PM »

Not exactly, but it did have more of a retro rather than forward thinking sound although the synth textures predated new wave, and had a very punk DIY approach (as opposed to sound)
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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2014, 04:16:54 PM »

So "Adult Child", most of it written in '77, was vintage Beach Boys music, right Sheriff?

Just for the sake of our keeping our timeline straight, Adult/Child was written and recorded before these things (the break-up, the subsequent meeting, and the vote) happened.
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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2014, 04:33:55 PM »

So "Adult Child", most of it written in '77, was vintage Beach Boys music, right Sheriff?

Um, yeah.

"H.E.L.P. Is On The Way" (1970 Beach Boys)
"Games Two Can Play" (1970 Beach Boys)
"On Broadway" (oldie/cover)
"Shortenin' Bread" (oldie/cover/whatever)

"Life Is For The Living", "Still I Dream Of It", "Deep Purple", "It's Over Now" - Dick Reynolds-influenced, vintage 1964 Beach Boys Christmas Album-sounding

"Lines", "It's Trying To Say", "Everybody Wants To Live", "Hey Little Tomboy" - very simplistic, very Brian, not groundbreaking or earth shattering

Hey, I like Adult Child. I think it has been overrated a bit through the years. The vocals were too embarrassing to release, however. Again, I like it but it's not special music. It's referred to as "the Big Band album", yet there is hardly any Big Band sound, maybe a track or two. Other than Brian's vocals, yeah, it's Beach Boys music, very typical 1976/77 Beach Boys music.
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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2014, 05:32:20 PM »

I think Love You tanking was a major issue. For Brian, that was the first time since Friends that he'd made a serious effort at putting together a complete, artistically satisfying album. There's an interview around the time where he's basically dumbfounded about the label not viewing "Roller Skating Child" as a hit single. He said he put a lot of work into it, but they just weren't feeling it.

I think he realized that rather than struggle for his art and face tons of grief, he could just sign along with whatever Mike put together and cash the checks. All Brian had to do was add bass notes and chords to a couple of Mike Love's hooks and maybe submit a song or two he'd been goofing around with. Al or Bruce or whoever would put everything else together for him. If he was in the mood, the band would even humor him and let him arrange - although he usually wasn't in the mood.

I'm sure he also recognized that Al and Mike were less likely to get him in trouble with drugs.

Letting Mike do all the work pretty much went fine until KTSA, when the label decided it could care less about new BBs output. Without even needing to get it together a bit for an album, Brian basically just let himself go completely. Enter Landy.
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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2014, 09:18:59 PM »

Correct me if anything is incorrect:

The band did for all intent and purpose split up in Sept. 1977, but leading up to and even after they "patched it up", there were two separate camps within the band, who flew separately, drove in separate cars, etc. while on tour. The Wilsons, and Love-Jardine, with Brian's sporadic appearances putting him with the Wilsons...in other words, the camp that was into partying and the camp that was not. That's obvious, been reported often.

Consider their contract issues. They were having literally several million dollars waved in front of them, most notably by CBS. But they still had a few albums due to close out their existing contract with Warners, and that was to be fulfilled before they could sign with CBS, cash in on lucrative advances and other CBS offerings, and begin recording an album for CBS.

Brian was upset by the way his songs had been rejected and the music he was offering which was more personal in nature was not considered for release. Judge the quality of that music for yourself, but he was stung by the rejection. And he was tired of the band, period. He didn't like working with them, he didn't want to work with them, he didn't want to write with Mike, etc.

Consider all of the band members were pretty much feeling the same way about each other at this specific time, they were not getting along and would probably have preferred not having to deal with each other.

Yet there was a multi-million dollar carrot being dangled in front of them by CBS among others to keep working and releasing music.

And...as Warners had done, CBS put a specific clause into their contract for the BB's: Brian had to be involved in the recording process, I think the percentage was even spelled out as 70% of the music had to involve Brian for the contract to be met.

And Brian at that point just wasn't into working with the band. Did he slack off just to meet the contract? Judge for yourself.

Carl wanted to do new music and progressive sounding recordings, but he wasn't in the shape to do it at this time. Mike wanted to stay the course that had fans filling the arenas, but he couldn't produce much of anything. Dennis was on his own solo album kick, obviously, but even he wasn't the kind of leader who could run the whole band's musical direction, much less produce a full album. Al - wild card.

So Mike finds the MIU deal, studio and living quarters far removed from LA and the distractions for all involved, and it would cross off another thing Warners needed contractually before they could cash the multi-million dollar CBS checks and jump labels with their new deal.

Brian had done Love You, the Adult Child music was rejected...why not go along for the ride? Is he that much of a presence on MIU? Do his contributions really stand out?

It could be a case of the band needing his name to be on the project, Brian at that point probably couldn't give a sh*t what they put out, there was a deal in the works, Carl was in bad shape and Dennis was erratic...maybe he figured all they need me to do is show up, the contract requirement that my name is somewhere on this stuff gets filled, and I basically don't need to do much more than that. Since, perhaps, what he did offer them in the recent past apparently was not what they wanted from him, or what was even at some point not good enough to promote. Who knows.

So the guy is in the middle of needing to be involved contractually for the band's sake, but not wanting to do much with them, a mutual feeling within the band in general at that time. Plus, CBS was calling and waving big checks.

They gave Warners MIU, the rejected Christmas album, and off to CBS to record some new music for an album and be able to get those big checks.

Where soon after, according to legend, Walter Yetnikoff declared "I think I've just been f***ed" after he heard the songs they worked up for the album.  Smiley

Why did Brian "side" the way he did? I naturally don't know exactly, I think he'd obviously be best to ask that, but put into context of what was happening musically and personally with his bandmates and family members, maybe it was the path of least resistance considering neither Carl nor Dennis seemed either willing or able to pick up the slack and move forward. And Brian apparently owed CBS 70% participation on the albums, even though that came as his "executive producer" name credit more than actual contributions to the subsequent album(s).
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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2014, 11:25:06 PM »

Not so much corrections as two further points.

1 - The MIU sessions were pretty much a direct result of signing with CBS while still owing Reprise an album without realising it. In other words, blind panic.

2 - given the session dates and track titles, I'm increasingly of the opinion that no Christmas album was ever delivered to Reprise, much less rejected. The sessions wrapped in early December 1977, and seasonal songs were recorded in tandem with their secular equivalents, thus demolishing the long-held supposition that MIU evolved out of a putative Christmas album. Finally - and as ever I stand to be corrected on this - there's just the sole source for there being such an album, the title, the track listing and that it was set to be released in 1977 but was rejected.
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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2014, 11:44:27 PM »

Surprised they didn't go the route of the old standby for contractual obligations, the live album.

Okay, the following is just a theory, and likely 100% bullshit...

Carl had been rejecting Brian's work for a minute by that point. The MT Vernon & Fairway story is well known, and I imagine that stung. The original mix of 15 Big Ones was supposedly rejected, with Carl tweaking it no little bit. Carl had  to finish up Love You when Brian apparently lost interest. Most of us have heard the boots of the Love You piano demos, featuring Brian playing the songs on the piano with Mike apparently digging the material. There is a less heard longer version of the I'll Bet He's Nice demo, with Mike talking about the last song being a 'motherfucker' and basically praising the hell out of whatever the previous song was. So... maybe Brian at this time felt that Mike appreciated his songs more than Carl did, and since he was more in favor of celebrating the oldies that he wrote rather than the more progressive period where he was less involved...well, maybe that's why he voted with Mike and Al.

Just a thought, and I'm sure I'm wrong.
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« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2014, 05:15:54 AM »

By 1977 Mike was Brian's biggest musical supporter. He would applaud a Brian Wilson turd while hoping to write lyrics to it. Why wouldn't Brian side with his cousin?
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« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2014, 05:45:01 AM »

The original mix of 15 Big Ones was supposedly rejected, with Carl tweaking it no little bit. Carl had  to finish up Love You when Brian apparently lost interest. Most of us have heard the boots of the Love You piano demos, featuring Brian playing the songs on the piano with Mike apparently digging the material.

Did Brian dislike Carl's production alterations to the 15 Big Ones and Love You tracks?  Or did he take these alterations as criticisms of his own work?  Also, AGD mentioned in a different thread a while back that there was resistance from within the band to the big band approach he took with some of the Adult/Child tracks.  Were Carl or Dennis among those resisting?
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« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2014, 07:13:07 AM »

The original mix of 15 Big Ones was supposedly rejected, with Carl tweaking it no little bit. Carl had  to finish up Love You when Brian apparently lost interest. Most of us have heard the boots of the Love You piano demos, featuring Brian playing the songs on the piano with Mike apparently digging the material.

Did Brian dislike Carl's production alterations to the 15 Big Ones and Love You tracks?  Or did he take these alterations as criticisms of his own work?  Also, AGD mentioned in a different thread a while back that there was resistance from within the band to the big band approach he took with some of the Adult/Child tracks.  Were Carl or Dennis among those resisting?

Consider that the bigger issue may have been that Carl was not in good shape at this time, he may have wanted to produce more at this time but some felt he wasn't able to do it due to various health/substance issues, yet they still had the Warner Bros. contract to fulfill and needed a new album.

So who else would that task fall on? Dennis? Like Carl he wasn't up for it. Mike? He didn't produce. Brian? He didn't really want to be involved any more than he had to, right? He lost interest in working with the band, yet every contract the band had depended on having Brian involved in the music.

So Mike and Al come along with a ready-made travel plan, complete with recording studio, living arrangements, a chance to get out of LA, and someone willing and able to actually work on an album.

That's my guess...Brian taking the path of least resistance and perhaps the path where he'd need to be less involved while still being involved for contracts' sake.

Basically what I already spelled out in my post above.  LOL




PS: It was apparently Mike who directly questioned Brian's musical direction after hearing a few tracks from A.C, but Carl as well, I believe, wasn't 100% behind Brian's productions and music in general at this time, including questioning having Brian on stage if he was going to be erratic, apparently. Feel free to correct this, but I don't think Carl's support was all that loyal or consistent for his brother's musical contributions at this time and into the next decade or more.


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« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2014, 07:22:36 AM »

I heard that the voting issue in 1977 was down to the fact that Diane Rovell had Brian's power of attorney as regards Brian's vote in BRI matters.  And she sided with Mike and Alan in September of 1977.  Brian went along for the ride.  I do recall seeing the band in October of 1977, in Champaign, IL.  Mike mentioned on stage that they were just one state over, recording their "...next two albums."  I always wondered if this meant they were trying to sell WB a Christmas album and simultaneously make their first CBS album at MIU.  Because the CBS album was supposed to have come out in the Spring of 1978, not 1979.
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« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2014, 07:49:06 AM »

I read the album situation as after Love You, they still owed Warners two albums for that existing contract to be met before getting started with CBS, and Adult Child had been shelved so the MIU plan was more to get the Warners album obligation met so they could move on and start recording something new for CBS. This might line up with Mike's "next two albums" comment, those two albums perhaps being what could complete their Warners contract. And when they did finally get working on the new CBS album with Brian even going to Florida to work on it, it was already behind schedule, and those sessions produced what prompted Walter Yetnikoff to make his infamous comment. Keep in mind that it might say something about the state of who could produce an album within the band at this time with the decision to get Bruce involved as producer, ostensibly to provide the album with "a hit"...one attempt at a hit turned out to be the disco remake of Here Comes The Night.  Grin

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« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2014, 09:51:05 AM »

Carl had been rejecting Brian's work for a minute by that point....Carl had  to finish up Love You when Brian apparently lost interest.

I've thought about this numerous times over the decades and never found the definitive answer. If anybody knows of any related interviews I would love to read them.

Did Brian actually lose interest in the Love You songs, or did he feel that he finished them and that they were fine the way he left them? Obviously "somebody" felt that the songs needed something a little extra. Was it just Carl or was it a consensus? When it was decided that Carl would add some things (mostly guitar parts), was Brian OK with it? I always thought that he was because Carl ultimately got a credit, instead of hiding his and others' contributions which later became commonplace.
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« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2014, 10:12:33 AM »

Carl had been rejecting Brian's work for a minute by that point....Carl had  to finish up Love You when Brian apparently lost interest.

I've thought about this numerous times over the decades and never found the definitive answer. If anybody knows of any related interviews I would love to read them.

Did Brian actually lose interest in the Love You songs, or did he feel that he finished them and that they were fine the way he left them? Obviously "somebody" felt that the songs needed something a little extra. Was it just Carl or was it a consensus? When it was decided that Carl would add some things (mostly guitar parts), was Brian OK with it? I always thought that he was because Carl ultimately got a credit, instead of hiding his and others' contributions which later became commonplace.

I read somewhere that Brian told a sound engineer, around the time of Love You, that he felt that he lost his flame. That when he was young he had a flame, an ability to make music easily and he didnt have it anymore. I always thought that to be very telling about why he took a backseat on production on so many songs and let the others give it a try.

What if Brian felt he didnt know how to finish Love You? Kind of like what happened with Smile, he knew where he wanted to go, but lost his way and then retreated.

In any case, I dont feel anything is missing about that album. I love both his demos (the few I've heard) and the finished songs. Its the most sincere Brian musical output since Pet Sounds and I will always rank it second in my list Smiley

About this thread's topic, the whole MIU/LA era is a bit obscure to me. The only thing I can add is that Brian sounds really relaxed in the MIU songs, almost like he was enjoying himself singing them. Take Matchpoint of our Love as an example, best Brian vocals in those years! Maybe he was just happy not having to think about musical direction, creativity intent, production, etc. He just went in as a singer and he nailed it.

Anyways, just my 2 cents.
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« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2014, 10:39:17 AM »

The massive decline in his skills as a pop master is there on both albums, more so on MIU.  The story about the tour bus driver seeing Brian is tragic, as it was so obvious he was in need of medical help and didn't get it until years later.
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