Smile Sessions vs Dylan Basement Tapes Box

[Bicyclerider]

Another legendary and only partially previously released set of lost 60s recordings is now officially going to be released - 6 CDs of every salvageable track of the Basement Tapes including fragments and songs in poor fidelity but all remastered to optimize the sound quality.  Why does Dylan get this sort of archival release and the Beach Boys only release limited and edited tapes of the Smile Sessions?  Excluding the bonus GV disc, we have three and a half (not counting the Frankenstein reconstruction tracks) CDs of sessions.  That could have been 8 discs!  why not release it all?  They have the 2 disc version for those not interested in everything or for whom the price would be prohibitive.  Give us all the test mixes, all the instrumental takes, all the acetates - I want it ALL!

Incidentally there is a 2 CD edition of the. Basement Tapes being released also for those who don't want to take the plunge on the box.  Maybe BRI could hire Jeff Rosen to manage the BB archival releases from now on?

[ToneBender631]

Another legendary and only partially previously released set of lost 60s recordings is now officially going to be released - 6 CDs of every salvageable track of the Basement Tapes including fragments and songs in poor fidelity but all remastered to optimize the sound quality.  Why does Dylan get this sort of archival release and the Beach Boys only release limited and edited tapes of the Smile Sessions?  Excluding the bonus GV disc, we have three and a half (not counting the Frankenstein reconstruction tracks) CDs of sessions.  That could have been 8 discs!  why not release it all?  They have the 2 disc version for those not interested in everything or for whom the price would be prohibitive.  Give us all the test mixes, all the instrumental takes, all the acetates - I want it ALL!

Incidentally there is a 2 CD edition of the. Basement Tapes being released also for those who don't want to take the plunge on the box.  Maybe BRI could hire Jeff Rosen to manage the BB archival releases from now on?

Some people release everything and some people don't. Given the comments Mike has made about how many discs were released being a bit much (paraphrasing), and knowing how Brian has felt about the project over the past 40 years, I don't think that we really have the archivists to "blame". 

[Mikie]

Dylan was, and still is, more popular than The Beach Boys. His box set was probably given a bigger budget, but that's secondary to his popularity and his place in Rock History. The Smile box focused on one album's sessions and was targeted mostly at the hardcore fans. I'm not surprised this release for Dylan was more comprehensive. Like Smile, a lot of it has been bootlegged before, but Dylan fans (and other fans) will snatch it up in droves anyway. The sales numbers will exceed the Smile Box and price won't matter.

[guitarfool2002]

I agree with Bicyclerider on a lot of this about the Smile Sessions box - If it came down to issues of cost, they could have done something along the lines of the Rhino Handmade limited edition sets, and just had the discs and the book(s), without the vinyl, the 45's, and the various special packages which all added considerably to the cost. As it is, I thought the box was terrific, but at the same time having just the raw session recordings all on discs would have been a nice "deluxe" type of release too.

But - I do think both the Beach Boys and the Beatles suffer from the same kind of thing in that they may or may not be too overprotective about what gets released, perhaps not wanting to release something that could show them in a poor light musically or otherwise to tarnish the perceived legacy of them and the music. And I also think there is too much of a "veto power" mindset at work, where you have a group of cooks standing around the pot each saying what they want to put into the recipe.

Dylan on the other hand seems to have a more carefree attitude, to the point of him basically taking the "release it" mentality over tinkering, editing, creating "new" versions of outtakes and whatever else. I just don't think he cares as much - and I mean that in a positive way in that he wouldn't mind if one of the songs has him giving a bad performance or not.

Do I think Basement Tapes and Smile Sessions are worth comparing musically or even conceptually? No - musically, they're coming from a different place entirely. One documents the making of an album in the studio, pushing the boundaries of what could or could not be done using studio technology at the time, while the other is a songwriter/performer and a band of touring musicians holing up to explore and create a variation on not only American rock music but also a fresh take on the notion of "American" music in general. They're similar pursuits, but one is studio focused and the other is a group of musicians jamming out ideas in an informal setting.

I don't believe the Basement Tapes were ever intended to be released as they were being recorded and which appear on this new box. They most likely would have taken them into the studio, or would have refined the songs and song forms before cutting final versions of what they had been jamming. Smile, on the other hand, was the actual studio sessions and in some cases final takes which would have gone onto an album. Conceptually, they're different stages of the process behind making an album.

[alf wiedersehen]

For some perspective, the $149 deluxe 6 CD set is the number 1 seller in all of music on Amazon. Secondly, the $99 vinyl 2-disc set is the #1 seller in all of vinyl. Both have held this position for about a day now, which is as long as they've been on the Amazon market. They're selling like hot cakes and almost without any press/announcement.

[Bicyclerider]

I agree that the Basement tapes are far more revealing and potentially embarrassing as these include rough demos and some takes done while inebriated or otherwise mentally altered - yet Dylan is allowing them to be released.  I can't think of anything comparably embarrassing to the Beach Boys legacy on the Smile box or on all of the sessions we have on boot that weren't included on the box.  Multiple instrumental takes by the wrecking crew - why would a Beach Boy object to releasing that?  OK, maybe the Jasper Daily song - that's one I would think would have been vetoed, yet it made the box!  

[guitarfool2002]

I agree that the Basement tapes are far more revealing and potentially embarrassing as these include rough demos and some takes done while inebriated or otherwise mentally altered - yet Dylan is allowing them to be released.  I can't think of anything comparably embarrassing to the Beach Boys legacy on the Smile box or on all of the sessions we have on boot that weren't included on the box.  Multiple instrumental takes by the wrecking crew - why would a Beach Boy object to releasing that?  OK, maybe the Jasper Daily song - that's one I would think would have been vetoed, yet it made the box!  

I think it was the mentality of trying to make things more polished, and editing in order to suggest a complete song, that led to those decisions most obviously on the Beatles Anthology and also the Smile Sessions reconstruction. I can't say which entity if not all of them came in with that mentality of presenting a "finished" or "polished" product versus presenting the raw material, but I have to think some of that came from a label/production mentality that assumed people buying the box out of curiosity would prefer to hear something finished and polished over raw material. That I think we know is what happened to cause Anthology to edit together multiple takes to present a finished track.

Whereas Dylan through all of his Bootleg Series releases seems OK with letting it all come out raw and unfiltered.

There may also be issues of off-color jokes or profanity during the sessions which some may have wanted to keep hidden, as well as whatever off-the-cuff comments may have been made that wouldn't be flattering for whatever reasons.

As far as which Beach Boys wouldn't want multiple Wrecking Crew takes to come out...I'm risking touching that third rail again, but consider which Beach Boys are *not* heard on 99% of those instrumental sessions versus who *is* heard on 100% of those instrumental sessions, and consider how that might reflect on legacies, histories, credit, etc.

Or screw it, I'll come right out and say it. If you release every single minute of raw instrumental sessions from Pet Sounds and Smile, you'll hear Beach Boys Brian and to a lesser degree Carl creating that music in the studio, and that's pretty much it for Beach Boys for the overwhelming majority of those tracking sessions. That may not be the story some would want told through those tapes.

[Wirestone]

Dylan was, and still is, more popular than The Beach Boys. His box set was probably given a bigger budget, but that's secondary to his popularity and his place in Rock History.

This.

If you release every single minute of raw instrumental sessions from Pet Sounds and Smile, you'll hear Beach Boys Brian and to a lesser degree Carl creating that music in the studio, and that's pretty much it for Beach Boys for the overwhelming majority of those tracking sessions. That may not be the story some would want told through those tapes.

Also this.

Another important point is that Dylan's folks have pushed this archival series for the last 20 years. This is volume 11. Arguably the most important booted Bob has been released -- so they're circling back and putting out even more exhaustive versions of things. Once you get in the habit of these sort of releases (and proved that they sell), everyone has a lot more flexibility.

Finally, the basement tapes cover a lot of ground. It's not like Dylan plays anything 50 times. There are dozens upon dozens of titles played, almost all with simultaneous lead vocals. The Smile sessions focus on a smaller number of songs, many of which feature a very similar riff, over and over, which are played instrumentally.

These are not small differences.

[Bicyclerider]

Ok, the Dylan Basement Tapes and the Beach Boys have a direct connection!  On the 6cd box set is a Dylan take on the 1956 hit "Confidential" - written by one Dorinda Morgan!  So maybe this will convince BRI to finally release First Wave: The Complete Hite Morgan Sessions!

[rab2591]

For some time now, I've wished that The Beach Boys had their own 'Bootleg Series'.

Friends deserves even just a digital 'boxset' release. Sunflower as well. I'd venture to guess that Mark and Alan have this stuff assembled already...a cappella and instrumental tracks, session chatter/takes for most of the Beach Boys catalogue.

The Beach Boys will be remembered for the sounds they created....their legacy will not be tarnished by who created a lot of those sounds. People 50 years from now will put on WIBN and not care one iota that Hal Blaine was drumming on the track. It's pathetic if someone in the Beach Boys organization actually thinks that releasing Wrecking Crew laden session tracks will degrade The Beach Boys legacy.

[Smilin Ed H]

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,17621.msg472309.html#msg472309

[guitarfool2002]

The Beach Boys will be remembered for the sounds they created....their legacy will not be tarnished by who created a lot of those sounds. People 50 years from now will put on WIBN and not care one iota that Hal Blaine was drumming on the track. It's pathetic if someone in the Beach Boys organization actually thinks that releasing Wrecking Crew laden session tracks will degrade The Beach Boys legacy.

That wasn't the angle I was thinking of: My thinking was more along the lines of the stuff that happened leading up to the Pet Sounds Sessions box being set for release, then being pulled back to allow additional essays and liner notes to be added so the set wouldn't be - as some parties were suggesting - too Brian-centric. And it also plays into some of the discussions even on here about the weight of various contributions and contributors to various songs, and how and why the legacy or history should read to give equal credit where in some cases it simply doesn't apply.

So keep in mind what happened with something as seemingly minor as the liner notes for the PS Sessions box, and consider having a "Beach Boys" release of several hours of instrumental tracking sessions for things like PS and Smile where the only Beach Boy heard prominently on every tape is Brian Wilson, along with Carl Wilson, and that's about it.

As far as creating those tracks in the studio, there is simply no way to rewrite the story of how it all played out on those projects because it plays out on those hours of raw tape. Until the vocal sessions, certain members were simply not involved at all in the studio, and perhaps presenting those raw tracking sessions would set up a situation that adding or revising liner notes for such a release would not change the fact of who was and wasn't involved in the recordings. And I'm not talking about Wrecking Crew versus Beach Boys.

[rab2591]

Oh, I get what you're saying now. What a shame if that's the case.

[Peter Reum]

I love the raw tapes for both artists, and am a huge follower of The Band. Looking forward to all six cds!

[chris.metcalfe]

I agree with the OP, and am really looking forward to the BAsement tapes. One irony in the BB comparison is that a lot of these are in incredibly lo-fi, whereas the BB mid-60s sessions sound like they're in your living room.

I think the reasons are partly BB politics, but also an incredible lack of confidence in the BB archivists - they've always been , or seemed to be, in the position of a team who are constantly battling to get anything released - hence MiC, yet another career retrospective containing just enough rarities to sell to the fans. All of this must be down to company management at Capitol. And what were the sales figures for MiC (snigger).

Sony, on the other hand, who bought Columbia, seem to completely understand the market and the fan-base. They give the fans exactly what thjey want - including POB - and it sells. The shame is that the BB archive went back to Capitol rather than staying with Epic -> Sony.

[Cam Mott]

I'd be favor of releasing more archival stuff but the takes they wanted released are on the records and I wonder if to the band the rest of it is just scrap.

RE. PSS: If I was in the band, sang on the album, played on the album, co-wrote a song, paid for the album or whatever and a contract percussionist got more ink in the booklet than I did, I might be upset.

I'm sure the additions to the booklet caused delay but it seems to me it was delayed much longer than an edit of the booklet would account for. Wasn't it like a year or year and a half?  Has anybody looked into a possible cause of the delay or length of time of the delay as possibly contributed to by some sort of shake up in EMI at the time?  Weren't there other Capitol and EMI releases that were held up at the same time due to some sort of restructuring or something in EMI?

[The Heartical Don]

I love the raw tapes for both artists, and am a huge follower of The Band. Looking forward to all six cds!

I agree, Peter -

I take a rather modest perspective here: you won't hear complaints from me regarding these two huge boxes from great, gifted artists at all.

I feel blessed that they're there at all, in my lifetime.

That's about it.

Cheers, The Don.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I agree with the OP, and am really looking forward to the BAsement tapes. One irony in the BB comparison is that a lot of these are in incredibly lo-fi, whereas the BB mid-60s sessions sound like they're in your living room.

I think the reasons are partly BB politics, but also an incredible lack of confidence in the BB archivists - they've always been , or seemed to be, in the position of a team who are constantly battling to get anything released - hence MiC, yet another career retrospective containing just enough rarities to sell to the fans. All of this must be down to company management at Capitol. And what were the sales figures for MiC (snigger).

Why the snigger? Was MIC a flop? I've been curious to find out how it did/how it's doing for a while now...