Feeling confused...who's the hero and who's the villain?

[Matt P]

There are a few villains in the Beach Boys story of varying degrees of villainy; Murray, Landy, Charles Manson, Stamos (joke!)  but I wouldn't class the band themselves amongst them.
Now let's here it for the heroes: Gary Usher, Tony Asher, Roger Christian and VDP for starters.

[CenturyDeprived]

To me, a notable difference between heroes and villains in general, and particularly in the case of this band, is a given person’s ability (or lack thereof) to take responsibility for their own actions if they have hurt others, even inadvertently. I’ve seen interview clip after interview clip of late 80s/early 90s Brian publicly reflecting on feeling bad/guilty for not having been a good parent to Carnie and Wendy. You can tell it pains him to say it, but he has the guts and strength of character to have addressed this publicly multiple times on camera. He didn't have to talk about it. But he did.

Compare and contrast to Mike never (as far as I know) having uttered a public word about his daughter Shawn. It's tragic any way you slice it.

No, nobody (even celebs) are *required* to talk about stuff like this in public, I realize that. And I know that we only have a small glimpse of the true goings-on about these people, and they’ve all done good/bad things… but that being said, this striking contrast to me in terms of a parent taking responsibility for not having been around, or just for addressing the existence of their own offspring, ultimately speaks volumes when comparing the character of the individuals in this band that we all love. Maybe I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about, and maybe I have no place saying such an opinion from the outside.  But that's probably the case for everyone posting in this whole thread
 

[Ron]

A huge part of becoming a Beach Boys' fan, besides all the great music, is because of the insane characters, the long saga and the prevalent craziness. Why would you want to spoil all your fun reducing everyone to heroes vs villains?

This.

I have trouble classifying anyone in my faovorite band as either "hero" or "villain". I don't quite understand the point of this thread. 

None of them ever killed or raped anybody so I can't get to a point where I call any of them a villain.  They're all human with faults, it's just somebody wrote most of them down.  If everybody wrote down everything shitty I did 30 years ago... I mean come on.  There are very few people walking around who haven't done something shitty to somebody at one time or another, and eventually people forgot or forgave them for it.  None of them did anything unforgiveable and through their music all of them did a lot to spread joy and love so I give all of them a pass. 

[Sound of Free]

Now let's here it for the heroes: Gary Usher, Tony Asher, Roger Christian and VDP for starters.

I'd nominate Chuck Britz.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

A huge part of becoming a Beach Boys' fan, besides all the great music, is because of the insane characters, the long saga and the prevalent craziness. Why would you want to spoil all your fun reducing everyone to heroes vs villains?

This.

I have trouble classifying anyone in my faovorite band as either "hero" or "villain". I don't quite understand the point of this thread. 

None of them ever killed or raped anybody so I can't get to a point where I call any of them a villain.  They're all human with faults, it's just somebody wrote most of them down.  If everybody wrote down everything shitty I did 30 years ago... I mean come on.  There are very few people walking around who haven't done something shitty to somebody at one time or another, and eventually people forgot or forgave them for it.  None of them did anything unforgiveable and through their music all of them did a lot to spread joy and love so I give all of them a pass. 

Well said.

[Jay]

RE: Negron/Redwood

I did a couple of pretty lengthily interviews with Negron a few years back and he told me the tale in detail, and I gotta say, I believe him.
He had no agenda, he seemingly knew all the key players pretty well over interactions in the ensuing years -- I have no doubt it played out exactly the way he said.

Personally, I think if anyone from that trio is going to offer any type of accurate portrayal of the events, it would be Negron.
 

I'd love to be able to read/hear any of those interviews sometime. 

[schiaffino]

To me, a notable difference between heroes and villains in general, and particularly in the case of this band, is a given person’s ability (or lack thereof) to take responsibility for their own actions if they have hurt others, even inadvertently. I’ve seen interview clip after interview clip of late 80s/early 90s Brian publicly reflecting on feeling bad/guilty for not having been a good parent to Carnie and Wendy. You can tell it pains him to say it, but he has the guts and strength of character to have addressed this publicly multiple times on camera. He didn't have to talk about it. But he did.

Compare and contrast to Mike never (as far as I know) having uttered a public word about his daughter Shawn. It's tragic any way you slice it.

No, nobody (even celebs) are *required* to talk about stuff like this in public, I realize that. And I know that we only have a small glimpse of the true goings-on about these people, and they’ve all done good/bad things… but that being said, this striking contrast to me in terms of a parent taking responsibility for not having been around, or just for addressing the existence of their own offspring, ultimately speaks volumes when comparing the character of the individuals in this band that we all love. Maybe I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about, and maybe I have no place saying such an opinion from the outside.  But that's probably the case for everyone posting in this whole thread
 

Thanks  for your post, man, I like how you expressed your opinion without the negativity of other posters in this thread. And although I was focusing on how they were heroes or villains to their own history, your analysis is really valid.

It's tough starting a thread here, everyone seems very aggressive and pistoff'd but replies like yours make it worthwhile.

Cheers

[Peter Reum]

We are all saints and sinners at different times in our lives...it is a part of being human. When we are young, things are black and white. As we age, and make mistakes, shades of grey (and empathy) begin to overshadow the black and white. We forgive others for their missteps, and we try to forgive ourselves for our own.

[schiaffino]

If you wanted to define a villain as somebody who was willing to hurt others in order to benefit themselves, then Murry would be the only candidate. 

   

And one Doctor Landy.

I'm starting to think the biggest villain of them all is us, BB's fans, with all our misconceptions and awful understanding of the events 

You just ain't whistlin' Dixie. While there are many here who work very hard to spread the truth, there are also many here who still rather ignore it in favor of their own opinions and myths.

Could we suggest a book project to clarify all misconceptions and myths? I have Stebbins FAQ book and it could be something like that but really focused on those key events in the band's history where most controversy arise: Smile, Monterrey, Redwood, Surf's Up in 1971, etc

I know anyone interested like you say in spreading the truth to future generations would read it. I would.

Oh sh***t, there's a book called 'Heroes and Villains: The True Story of the Beach Boys'.

Is it worthwhile or more of the myth building? I didnt get a clear answer from the book review thread.

[guitarfool2002]

Let me explain myself and my previous reply regarding Michael Vosse. I do react negatively when someone who had been living his own life and career free and clear of what happened in 1966-67 up until his recent passing is called a "leech". I'll say again it's not fair, and I'm not as much reacting to the people suggesting this but rather the way the history has been spun to suggest anything of the sort. This in light of the fact, too, that anyone here on the board can search his name or even read through the tribute link I posted here and get a better history of who the man was and what he did, with information you'll not find pretty much anywhere else.

I've reacted the same when similar things have been suggested about any number of people pictured in the 1966 airport photo, and individuals who were among Brian's inner circle during the "Smile era" in 1966-67. Some are still friends, some parted ways as early as 1967 and never came back, but among them are very successful musicians and professionals in other fields who have sold tens of millions of records, not to mention have been successful in other areas of the entertainment and media business, from the 70's onward, and none of which have ridden coattails from someone in the Beach Boys to do so.

If it's negativity, then I'm guilty and I didn't mean to finger-point at anyone. But at the same time it is important to clarify whatever misinformation has been going around which leads to calling certain people leeches or coattail-riders or hangers-on in various discussions.

Just consider some of these things when making the list.  

[joshferrell]

How would you guys place Zeppo Wilson? hero or villain? after the incident with the chicken and the gerbil I'm not sure how people would place him on the list.. here's my thoughts.
What makes him a hero
1. He never gave an interview so he never was able to gossip about the other members
2. He was married to 20 wives, at the same time, for me that's a hero, most people have a hard time with just one wife.
3.He gave money, annually, to the "Homeless Snail Charity"
4. He wrote some amazing songs, but the BB's didn't want to record them so he gave them to the Beatles and allowed them to use their own names as songwriters.
5.fought in WW1 and single handedly won the war for everyone
6. hung out with Mother Theresa and helped to bring the gospel to the pygmies.

villain
1. that thing he did with the chicken and the gerbil, which I'm not going into since you all know what happened
2.unfortuantly he was the one who introduced the guitar to Manson
3. he wrote Kokomo
4. unfortunately, he introduced the band to John Stamos
5. it was a shame when ,a couple years ago, when Zeppo was working with the band on the 50th ann tour as a computer tech and accidentally messed up Dennis' performance of "Forever" that one day..
 

[guitarfool2002]

A veteran of World War 1 working as a computer tech in 2012? Forget that guy in the Dos Equis commercials, Zeppo truly is the most interesting man in the world, if not of all time. 

[schiaffino]

How would you guys place Zeppo Wilson? hero or villain? after the incident with the chicken and the gerbil I'm not sure how people would place him on the list.. here's my thoughts.
What makes him a hero
1. He never gave an interview so he never was able to gossip about the other members
2. He was married to 20 wives, at the same time, for me that's a hero, most people have a hard time with just one wife.
3.He gave money, annually, to the "Homeless Snail Charity"
4. He wrote some amazing songs, but the BB's didn't want to record them so he gave them to the Beatles and allowed them to use their own names as songwriters.
5.fought in WW1 and single handedly won the war for everyone
6. hung out with Mother Theresa and helped to bring the gospel to the pygmies.

villain
1. that thing he did with the chicken and the gerbil, which I'm not going into since you all know what happened
2.unfortuantly he was the one who introduced the guitar to Manson
3. he wrote Kokomo
4. unfortunately, he introduced the band to John Stamos
5. it was a shame when ,a couple years ago, when Zeppo was working with the band on the 50th ann tour as a computer tech and accidentally messed up Dennis' performance of "Forever" that one day..
 

 

[Jay]

Zeppo Wilson is love. Zeppo Wilson is life.

[Cam Mott]

RE. Vosse: I agree. He was not a leech, he was an employee for one thing, hired by Brian, in the employee of BRI and doing a job.

RE. Negron:
 
"It all came to a head...when Mike Love, Carl Wilson and Al Jardine came to the studio and heard our version of 'Time To Get Alone'...They manoeuvred Brian into the control booth and reduced him to tears. It was a cruel and pathetic scene. Danny, Cory and I were in the studio and could see it all happening through the control-booth window. It was as if Brian had turned into a little boy. The conversation appeared quiet and calm, but we could tell it was emotional and intense. The others were doing most of the talking, like overbearing, controlling parents. Brian would move away, and they would block his escape. We couldn't hear what was being said, but I think a good lip-reader would have picked up something like, 'We don't give a **** about these guys, and we want those songs for us.' We could actually feel Brian crumbling, and when he came out of the booth, a tear dropped down his cheek. His head was lowered and his shoulders sagged. It was the body language of a child who had just been scolded and punished. And this brilliant musical icon - whose songs defined one generation and influenced another - weepingly told us, 'We can't do this. I have to give the songs to them. They're family and I have to take care of my family. They want the songs. I'll give you any amount of money you want to finish an album, but I can't produce it. They won't let me.'"

In his book Negron is not even aware of what was said and is just speculating about what was going on. Also, he has Brian offering to "finish" an album but somewhere I'm pretty sure Hutton is quoted as saying Redwood jumped ship on their BRI opportunity because Brian was only willing to do singles instead of an album. Maybe I don't remember that exactly right.

[guitarfool2002]

RE. Vosse: I agree. He was not a leech, he was an employee for one thing, hired by Brian, in the employee of BRI and doing a job.

RE. Negron:
 
"It all came to a head...when Mike Love, Carl Wilson and Al Jardine came to the studio and heard our version of 'Time To Get Alone'...They manoeuvred Brian into the control booth and reduced him to tears. It was a cruel and pathetic scene. Danny, Cory and I were in the studio and could see it all happening through the control-booth window. It was as if Brian had turned into a little boy. The conversation appeared quiet and calm, but we could tell it was emotional and intense. The others were doing most of the talking, like overbearing, controlling parents. Brian would move away, and they would block his escape. We couldn't hear what was being said, but I think a good lip-reader would have picked up something like, 'We don't give a **** about these guys, and we want those songs for us.' We could actually feel Brian crumbling, and when he came out of the booth, a tear dropped down his cheek. His head was lowered and his shoulders sagged. It was the body language of a child who had just been scolded and punished. And this brilliant musical icon - whose songs defined one generation and influenced another - weepingly told us, 'We can't do this. I have to give the songs to them. They're family and I have to take care of my family. They want the songs. I'll give you any amount of money you want to finish an album, but I can't produce it. They won't let me.'"

In his book Negron is not even aware of what was said and is just speculating about what was going on. Also, he has Brian offering to "finish" an album but somewhere I'm pretty sure Hutton is quoted as saying Redwood jumped ship on their BRI opportunity because Brian was only willing to do singles instead of an album. Maybe I don't remember that exactly right.

So Negron is speculating on seeing Brian come back with tears in his eyes which were not there before Mike, Carl, and Al showed up, and he did not say something to the effect of what Negron quoted him as saying? Is that the suggestion?

I don't buy it. Too much of a stretch to dismiss Negron's account in that way by suggesting he was speculating on the scene he had just watched unfold in front of him during a recording session.

Danny Hutton is still around, still friendly with Brian...someone should ask *him* what happened at that session, what *he* remembers from it if anything.

[Mike's Beard]

It wasn't exactly an unreasonable request though was it? "Hey Brian, remember that album of ours that just completely bombed and those flop singles? Maybe we should take those couple of tunes that are better then anything else we have lying around and make them into BB tunes?"

[Cam Mott]

He is speculating about what was going on in there unless I'm missing something. Does he not say in the quote that he did not hear what was said?

[guitarfool2002]

Just to clarify - I know Danny has talked about this before, I know his take on it was he could understand how the Beach Boys felt and might have done the same thing for his group in such a case, but I'm pinpointing the way Negron's account is having doubt cast on it by suggesting it's speculation. Danny Hutton was there too, I'm just saying it would be nice to get him to comment on it beyond what he already said...which is basically the same as what Negron said, that it looked like Brian was intimidated that day by the Beach Boys who came in to the studio and pulled him aside during the session, and he then came back from that conversation saying he could no longer produce the album for them, and was shaken up.

Is it true, though, that other members of The Beach Boys also circumvented Brian's original plans to produce a full album and offered Redwood a deal for a *single* on Brother, basically without involving Brian in this offer? That I'm not sure...

[guitarfool2002]

Let's speculate a bit on our own, here:

Brian is at Wally Heider's producing a vocal session for Redwood, with Hutton, Wells, and Negron.

Mike and Carl (and Al) show up, and pull Brian aside for a conversation which is observed through the studio glass window.

They leave, Brian comes back in shaken up. On Negron's account, he had been crying.

He then tells Redwood, in the middle of a Redwood vocal session he was producing, that he can no longer produce them. The band will not let him, and he'll be working on the Beach Boys album instead.

And that was all she wrote for Brian producing Redwood.

So.....Before the Beach Boys walked into the studio, he was producing Redwood. After they pull him aside and have this "speculated" discussion, he is no longer producing Redwood. And he appeared upset by the whole scene to the point of tears in his eyes.


Someone make the connection I must be missing to suggest the conversation wasn't more in tune with what Negron and Hutton are "speculating". I'd love to hear what else they could have been talking about, what changed the entire plans for Redwood before and after the "meeting"...were they discussing baseball perhaps? Meditation? Where they'd meet for dinner the next day? 

[Cam Mott]

Just to clarify - I know Danny has talked about this before, I know his take on it was he could understand how the Beach Boys felt and might have done the same thing for his group in such a case, but I'm pinpointing the way Negron's account is having doubt cast on it by suggesting it's speculation. Danny Hutton was there too, I'm just saying it would be nice to get him to comment on it beyond what he already said...which is basically the same as what Negron said, that it looked like Brian was intimidated that day by the Beach Boys who came in to the studio and pulled him aside during the session, and he then came back from that conversation saying he could no longer produce the album for them, and was shaken up.

Is it true, though, that other members of The Beach Boys also circumvented Brian's original plans to produce a full album and offered Redwood a deal for a *single* on Brother, basically without involving Brian in this offer? That I'm not sure...

Isn't he speculating about what was going on, his impression? He saw what he saw and he did not hear what he did not hear.

For all we know the Boys were trying to get Brian to realize that BRI couldn't afford to even release their own album or who knows what.

[guitarfool2002]

One aspect of this which is important to consider is that one of the reasons why they wanted to form Brother Records in the first place was to allow the individual band members to scout and produce other artists which they'd produce on their own and release on the Brother label, using Capitol's distribution and marketing. It was basically the same template Apple used when they tried to set up a similar organization so the individual Beatles and associates could bring in and produce on their own outside artists, only Brother was a year ahead of them. Recall Harrison got Jackie Lomax, McCartney got Mary Hopkin, Mal Evans got Badfinger (The Iveys), and I believe Peter Asher got James Taylor produced and released on Apple in that way.

Brian's outside group was Redwood, but they weren't entirely unknown and untested in the business since Hutton on his own had moderate success as a solo artist and had released singles and made the usual TV appearances, so he was somewhat of a known entity rather than a total unknown potentially getting "signed" under Brother.

What outside artists at the time Brian was producing Redwood had Mike, Carl, Dennis, or Al brought into the Brother label and what were they producing or offering to the new Brother label in the way of recording and releasing new songs from outside artists?

Consider that element of how and why Brother Records was formed, and keep in mind it wasn't solely created and designed to release Beach Boys records. Who else of note were the other band members besides Brian bringing in at that time in '67 when they were trying to build the label?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Whatever was said that Negrin couldn't hear is speculation.  What Brian told him afterwards wasn't.

[Cam Mott]

Whatever was said that Negrin couldn't hear is speculation.  What Brian told him afterwards wasn't.

Exactly, Brian's words are Brian's words according to Negron.

[Cam Mott]

Something else to consider, BRI was a corporation and each of the Boys were only one vote in how they operated.

Also, I think it is true that Brian had never had and would never produce anything considered commercially successful for any group other than the BBs before or after so Redwood even with Brian producing was a wildcard.