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Author Topic: Feeling confused...who's the hero and who's the villain?  (Read 14450 times)
Jon Stebbins
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« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2014, 01:51:08 PM »

Ok this is how I feel about them:

....


You're wrong about Carl and Oldies Act thing. Turns out it was Dennis who went to Guercio, who in turn to make them Superstars again, had them go the Greatest Hits/Oldies route.

Ok, but wasnt Carl calling the shots on the band material in the early to mid 70s? Or was Dennis so influential at that time direction-wise?

And what would be the source for this, if I may ask?

The band decided together to send Dennis to Jim Guercio. It was his suggestions and management of the band that led to a second Superstardom, especially in 75 & 76. Can't remember if it was Jon, Ed, David Beard or someone else who mentioned it, but it was mentioned in here, say in the last 2-3 weeks.
This is true, but should be put in context. Dennis did go to Guercio asking for his suggestion on how to get the BB's back on top, and Guercio's suggestion was to load the set with classics, and tighten up the presentation, more uptempo songs, less jams, less gaps...plus a whole bunch of business advice regarding management and concert production issues. Guercio also encouraged Dennis to pursue a solo career.
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« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2014, 02:00:01 PM »

Ok this is how I feel about them:

....


You're wrong about Carl and Oldies Act thing. Turns out it was Dennis who went to Guercio, who in turn to make them Superstars again, had them go the Greatest Hits/Oldies route.

Ok, but wasnt Carl calling the shots on the band material in the early to mid 70s? Or was Dennis so influential at that time direction-wise?

And what would be the source for this, if I may ask?

The band decided together to send Dennis to Jim Guercio. It was his suggestions and management of the band that led to a second Superstardom, especially in 75 & 76. Can't remember if it was Jon, Ed, David Beard or someone else who mentioned it, but it was mentioned in here, say in the last 2-3 weeks.
This is true, but should be put in context. Dennis did go to Guercio asking for his suggestion on how to get the BB's back on top, and Guercio's suggestion was to load the set with classics, and tighten up the presentation, more uptempo songs, less jams, less gaps...plus a whole bunch of business advice regarding management and concert production issues. Guercio also encouraged Dennis to pursue a solo career.

Thanks Mr. Stebbins! This was the whole intent of this thread, to validate if my understanding of the history was correct or not. I'm sure a lot of people (specially newer fans) were as confused as I was.
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« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2014, 02:04:58 PM »

He failed to stand up for Brian during Smile and later when the band lost direction in the late 70s

Dennis was always a supporter of Smile. He was one of the first to share the tapes!

Think I meant for someone who was the balls of the band, who seemed to become a growing influence in the decision-making process, why not act and help Brian finish Smile? Its great that he gave interviews saying that Smile would make Pet Sounds stink, but why then not fight more to get the album release in 1967?

Maybe I'm very wrong and Dennis fought like crazy to get Brian to finish it back then. But its not what I got from the books and from this board.
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« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2014, 02:20:38 PM »

He failed to stand up for Brian during Smile and later when the band lost direction in the late 70s

Dennis was always a supporter of Smile. He was one of the first to share the tapes!

Think I meant for someone who was the balls of the band, who seemed to become a growing influence in the decision-making process, why not act and help Brian finish Smile? Its great that he gave interviews saying that Smile would make Pet Sounds stink, but why then not fight more to get the album release in 1967?

Maybe I'm very wrong and Dennis fought like crazy to get Brian to finish it back then. But its not what I got from the books and from this board.
Don't know about trying to get Brian to finish it, I doubt it as that wasn't how their relationship worked. But he definitely stood up for Brian when others doubted his approach and direction. To Dennis... Brian was the master and everybody else should fall in line behind him no matter. I think that changed in the mid-seventies when Dennis became more of an independent artist and Brian became less engaged, but in the Pet Sounds/Smile period Dennis was a soldier for Brian's vision, and he thought the other guys should have the same attitude.
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« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2014, 02:34:43 PM »

Hey people, I just bought Priore's book a couple of weeks ago. I'm half-way through (reading it on my way to work) and the more I read, the more confused I get about how I feel for some band members. Was Mike Love such a douche bag back during the Smile sessions? Was Van Dyke Parks the savior of the band in the 70s when he got them the Warner contract and gave them 'Sail On, Sailor'? Was Carl really involved in forcing Brian to abandon the Redwood project?

Example: the Redwood incident. There's a single source for that, Chuck Negron's autobiography. Danny Hutton's never said word one about it in the ensuing 46-odd years. And he would.

Sadly this incident (aside from his HOF fiasco) seems to be the incident that is brought up the most as an indictment of Mike Love's character.  If it is a falsehood I would love to see it definitively disproved in the public forum.
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« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2014, 02:42:12 PM »

He failed to stand up for Brian during Smile and later when the band lost direction in the late 70s

Dennis was always a supporter of Smile. He was one of the first to share the tapes!

Think I meant for someone who was the balls of the band, who seemed to become a growing influence in the decision-making process, why not act and help Brian finish Smile? Its great that he gave interviews saying that Smile would make Pet Sounds stink, but why then not fight more to get the album release in 1967?

Maybe I'm very wrong and Dennis fought like crazy to get Brian to finish it back then. But its not what I got from the books and from this board.
Don't know about trying to get Brian to finish it, I doubt it as that wasn't how their relationship worked. But he definitely stood up for Brian when others doubted his approach and direction. To Dennis... Brian was the master and everybody else should fall in line behind him no matter. I think that changed in the mid-seventies when Dennis became more of an independent artist and Brian became less engaged, but in the Pet Sounds/Smile period Dennis was a soldier for Brian's vision, and he thought the other guys should have the same attitude.

Cool reply, Mr. Stebbins, thank you.

I read somewhere that Brian was forced to agree to the release of Surf's Up in 1971. Guess I thought he could have been equally 'influenced' back in 1967 to get the full album released, but maybe the difference is that in 1971 it was the entire band pressuring him while in 1967 it might have been just Dennis.

Anyways, I read a lot of critics about the poor decision-making of the band - specially in Priore's book. So I'm just curious to understand how that process was actually conducted, how much was really up to Brian or if third parties played a critical role (Capitol, Murray, Jack Reilly). The band never struck me as being really democratic...unlike U2 for example, where everything is pretty much decided as a group.
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« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2014, 03:05:17 PM »

Hey people, I just bought Priore's book a couple of weeks ago. I'm half-way through (reading it on my way to work) and the more I read, the more confused I get about how I feel for some band members. Was Mike Love such a douche bag back during the Smile sessions? Was Van Dyke Parks the savior of the band in the 70s when he got them the Warner contract and gave them 'Sail On, Sailor'? Was Carl really involved in forcing Brian to abandon the Redwood project?

Example: the Redwood incident. There's a single source for that, Chuck Negron's autobiography. Danny Hutton's never said word one about it in the ensuing 46-odd years. And he would.

Sadly this incident (aside from his HOF fiasco) seems to be the incident that is brought up the most as an indictment of Mike Love's character.  If it is a falsehood I would love to see it definitively disproved in the public forum.
Without going into the Mike issues, ...in this case I can say that there is precedent regarding Brian recording a track and going back and forth on whether it was for the Beach Boys or another artist, and some of them have had other Beach Boys on them in the earliest stages. So, the evidence that Carl was on the basic track doesn't necessarily sway me one way or the other, but the Negron story does only give one perspective. I'm interested in going back and hearing the Redwood version (concentrating on the track), and then the Beach Boys version knowing it had some extra work done on the backing track by the boys. As most have said, i always thought the two backing tracks were identical, but not the case according to C-man.
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« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2014, 03:20:39 PM »

He failed to stand up for Brian during Smile and later when the band lost direction in the late 70s

Dennis was always a supporter of Smile. He was one of the first to share the tapes!

Think I meant for someone who was the balls of the band, who seemed to become a growing influence in the decision-making process, why not act and help Brian finish Smile? Its great that he gave interviews saying that Smile would make Pet Sounds stink, but why then not fight more to get the album release in 1967?

Maybe I'm very wrong and Dennis fought like crazy to get Brian to finish it back then. But its not what I got from the books and from this board.
Don't know about trying to get Brian to finish it, I doubt it as that wasn't how their relationship worked. But he definitely stood up for Brian when others doubted his approach and direction. To Dennis... Brian was the master and everybody else should fall in line behind him no matter. I think that changed in the mid-seventies when Dennis became more of an independent artist and Brian became less engaged, but in the Pet Sounds/Smile period Dennis was a soldier for Brian's vision, and he thought the other guys should have the same attitude.

Cool reply, Mr. Stebbins, thank you.

I read somewhere that Brian was forced to agree to the release of Surf's Up in 1971. Guess I thought he could have been equally 'influenced' back in 1967 to get the full album released, but maybe the difference is that in 1971 it was the entire band pressuring him while in 1967 it might have been just Dennis.

Anyways, I read a lot of critics about the poor decision-making of the band - specially in Priore's book. So I'm just curious to understand how that process was actually conducted, how much was really up to Brian or if third parties played a critical role (Capitol, Murray, Jack Reilly). The band never struck me as being really democratic...unlike U2 for example, where everything is pretty much decided as a group.

Please call me Jon. Someone on here is gonna flame both of us for the Mr. Stebbins thing.  Wink I think in the case of Surf's Up Brian was given no choice in the matter, Dennis was just given the job of telling him that...and that BW was initially against it's inclusion, and then came around to contribute to the new section is more evidence that everything is gray with this outfit.

I think with the Beach Boys instead of Democratic it's more like parliament or the UN with everybody arguing and different factions gaining leverage and power in different periods. Howie Edelson made a very prescient point how the Beatles always had that inside layer (Neil Aspinall) that gave them a last buffer between the group and any outside influences...Murry kind of played that role early on but lost the trust and respect of the boys. They never had that constant and consistent presence after him, it was always a revolving door of new managers, assistants, relatives, wives, lawyers etc... each protecting and influencing their own connection to the golden goose, but not the total entity.
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« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2014, 03:59:30 PM »

He failed to stand up for Brian during Smile and later when the band lost direction in the late 70s

Dennis was always a supporter of Smile. He was one of the first to share the tapes!

Think I meant for someone who was the balls of the band, who seemed to become a growing influence in the decision-making process, why not act and help Brian finish Smile? Its great that he gave interviews saying that Smile would make Pet Sounds stink, but why then not fight more to get the album release in 1967?

Maybe I'm very wrong and Dennis fought like crazy to get Brian to finish it back then. But its not what I got from the books and from this board.
Don't know about trying to get Brian to finish it, I doubt it as that wasn't how their relationship worked. But he definitely stood up for Brian when others doubted his approach and direction. To Dennis... Brian was the master and everybody else should fall in line behind him no matter. I think that changed in the mid-seventies when Dennis became more of an independent artist and Brian became less engaged, but in the Pet Sounds/Smile period Dennis was a soldier for Brian's vision, and he thought the other guys should have the same attitude.

Cool reply, Mr. Stebbins, thank you.

I read somewhere that Brian was forced to agree to the release of Surf's Up in 1971. Guess I thought he could have been equally 'influenced' back in 1967 to get the full album released, but maybe the difference is that in 1971 it was the entire band pressuring him while in 1967 it might have been just Dennis.

Anyways, I read a lot of critics about the poor decision-making of the band - specially in Priore's book. So I'm just curious to understand how that process was actually conducted, how much was really up to Brian or if third parties played a critical role (Capitol, Murray, Jack Reilly). The band never struck me as being really democratic...unlike U2 for example, where everything is pretty much decided as a group.

Please call me Jon. Someone on here is gonna flame both of us for the Mr. Stebbins thing.  Wink I think in the case of Surf's Up Brian was given no choice in the matter, Dennis was just given the job of telling him that...and that BW was initially against it's inclusion, and then came around to contribute to the new section is more evidence that everything is gray with this outfit.

I think with the Beach Boys instead of Democratic it's more like parliament or the UN with everybody arguing and different factions gaining leverage and power in different periods. Howie Edelson made a very prescient point how the Beatles always had that inside layer (Neil Aspinall) that gave them a last buffer between the group and any outside influences...Murry kind of played that role early on but lost the trust and respect of the boys. They never had that constant and consistent presence after him, it was always a revolving door of new managers, assistants, relatives, wives, lawyers etc... each protecting and influencing their own connection to the golden goose, but not the total entity.

Thank you Jon Smiley

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« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2014, 04:05:41 PM »

RE: Negron/Redwood

I did a couple of pretty lengthily interviews with Negron a few years back and he told me the tale in detail, and I gotta say, I believe him.
He had no agenda, he seemingly knew all the key players pretty well over interactions in the ensuing years -- I have no doubt it played out exactly the way he said.

Personally, I think if anyone from that trio is going to offer any type of accurate portrayal of the events, it would be Negron.
 
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« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2014, 05:40:39 PM »

However it went down, The Beach Boys did the right thing in recording Darlin themselves. Mike had co-written it, they needed a hit and it was comfortably the most commercial song they had at the time. I think Danny Hutton was quoted as saying he would have done the same thing himself?

As for the question posed by the OP, I don`t think any of the band members are heroes or villains. They all have good and bad facets to their characters and opinions about them seem to vary wildly depending on who is being interviewed which is only to be expected.

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« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2014, 05:48:47 PM »

We're all Heroes and Villains (look at AGD for cryin' out loud   LOL Razz Wink) - you, me, all of us and everyone else.   We may err on either side at times (or always) - but everyone is, and can be, both. 
It's the way it is. 
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« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2014, 07:12:51 PM »

Carl

Villain because
  • He failed to deliver good songs after Feel Flows...its a big disappointment 'cause that song and LPR are so good, it makes you wonder what else he could have done...

Well, you also have to remember that Carl turned into a major producer around 1969-70, and often helped Brian to finish his songs. His contributions weren't only what the songwriting credits tell you.
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« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2014, 07:18:10 PM »

If you wanted to define a villain as somebody who was willing to hurt others in order to benefit themselves, then Murry would be the only candidate.  

  
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« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2014, 07:37:53 PM »

If you wanted to define a villain as somebody who was willing to hurt others in order to benefit themselves, then Murry would be the only candidate.  

  

And one Doctor Landy.
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« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2014, 09:40:41 PM »

As far as Redwood was concerned. Let's say Chuck's account is true. Danny Hutton said (and remember, he was/is one of Brian's BFF) HE (Danny) would have done the exact same thing. If someone in Three Dog Night had been a writer for them and someone else wanted some of their songs, he would have run them off as well.

As far as SMiLE is concerned, Leaf and Prioire both heaped praises on the Brian's posse during the SMiLE period. But seeing them during the Beautiful Dreamer documentery (especially Loren) made me want to take a shower afterwards. THESE were the great thinkers around Brian? Vosse, Loren, etc. Sheesh, the word leeches come to mind. Only Van Dyke and David Anderle were worth a damn. And from someone who knows him well, Van Dyke has some Mike Love in him. Take that for what it is worth.
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« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2014, 09:55:38 PM »

As far as Redwood was concerned. Let's say Chuck's account is true. Danny Hutton said (and remember, he was/is one of Brian's BFF) HE (Danny) would have done the exact same thing. If someone in Three Dog Night had been a writer for them and someone else wanted some of their songs, he would have run them off as well.

As far as SMiLE is concerned, Leaf and Prioire both heaped praises on the Brian's posse during the SMiLE period. But seeing them during the Beautiful Dreamer documentery (especially Loren) made me want to take a shower afterwards. THESE were the great thinkers around Brian? Vosse, Loren, etc. Sheesh, the word leeches come to mind. Only Van Dyke and David Anderle were worth a damn. And from someone who knows him well, Van Dyke has some Mike Love in him. Take that for what it is worth.

Vosse was a decent guy, wouldn't call him a leech. But must agree about VDP, except I think you were being too nice.
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« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2014, 10:14:14 PM »

As far as Redwood was concerned. Let's say Chuck's account is true. Danny Hutton said (and remember, he was/is one of Brian's BFF) HE (Danny) would have done the exact same thing. If someone in Three Dog Night had been a writer for them and someone else wanted some of their songs, he would have run them off as well.

As far as SMiLE is concerned, Leaf and Prioire both heaped praises on the Brian's posse during the SMiLE period. But seeing them during the Beautiful Dreamer documentery (especially Loren) made me want to take a shower afterwards. THESE were the great thinkers around Brian? Vosse, Loren, etc. Sheesh, the word leeches come to mind. Only Van Dyke and David Anderle were worth a damn. And from someone who knows him well, Van Dyke has some Mike Love in him. Take that for what it is worth.

Not cool to call Michael Vosse a leech. Not cool at all.

Read this:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?topic=17054.0

He did quite well for himself after the Smile era, without "leeching" off anyone and based on his own work and personality, and managed to work almost three decades in the TV news business as a producer who won awards for his work. Not to mention his graphic design work and other behind the scenes music-biz work that included helping to both organize the event and design the program for Monterey Pop.

Not to mention nearly everyone who knew him or worked with him had nothing but good things to say about the man. I wish I had met him or interacted with him beyond the internet. 

Leech? Hardly.
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« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2014, 10:43:32 PM »

Putting a guy like Michael Vosse in the "leech" category is beyond ridiculous considering how many people who share both a family last name and DNA with various band members in their history have f*cked them over, but good. And in some cases leeched hundreds of thousands of dollars from them.

Again, has it really come to this?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2014, 10:55:16 AM »

Putting a guy like Michael Vosse in the "leech" category is beyond ridiculous considering how many people who share both a family last name and DNA with various band members in their history have f*cked them over, but good. And in some cases leeched hundreds of thousands of dollars from them.

Again, has it really come to this?  Roll Eyes

Hey GuitarFool, I dont know much about Vosse to say anything about him. But the intent of this Heroes and Villains thread was to identify our understandings, rectify misconceptions and try to clarify (as much as possible) the history of the BBs. Specially for us newer fans, since we dont have the context that people like Andrew, Jon Stebbins or yourself have.

So thanks for expressing what you see as a misunderstanding of someone key in the band's history.
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« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2014, 10:58:02 AM »

If you wanted to define a villain as somebody who was willing to hurt others in order to benefit themselves, then Murry would be the only candidate.  

  

And one Doctor Landy.

I'm starting to think the biggest villain of them all is us, BB's fans, with all our misconceptions and awful understanding of the events  Sad
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« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2014, 11:04:57 AM »

If you wanted to define a villain as somebody who was willing to hurt others in order to benefit themselves, then Murry would be the only candidate. 

   

And one Doctor Landy.

I'm starting to think the biggest villain of them all is us, BB's fans, with all our misconceptions and awful understanding of the events  Sad
You just ain't whistlin' Dixie. While there are many here who work very hard to spread the truth, there are also many here who still rather ignore it in favor of their own opinions and myths.
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« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2014, 11:29:15 AM »

You just ain't whistlin' Dixie. While there are many here who work very hard to spread the truth, there are also many here who still rather ignore it in favor of their own opinions and myths.

Simply put one of the smartest posts I've read here in a long time. Agree 100%.
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« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2014, 11:30:07 AM »

If you wanted to define a villain as somebody who was willing to hurt others in order to benefit themselves, then Murry would be the only candidate. 

   

And one Doctor Landy.

I'm starting to think the biggest villain of them all is us, BB's fans, with all our misconceptions and awful understanding of the events  Sad
You just ain't whistlin' Dixie. While there are many here who work very hard to spread the truth, there are also many here who still rather ignore it in favor of their own opinions and myths.

Could we suggest a book project to clarify all misconceptions and myths? I have Stebbins FAQ book and it could be something like that but really focused on those key events in the band's history where most controversy arise: Smile, Monterrey, Redwood, Surf's Up in 1971, etc

I know anyone interested like you say in spreading the truth to future generations would read it. I would.
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« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2014, 02:36:48 PM »

Petsite .... How dare you have an opinion about Michael Vosse's association with Brian Wilson after everything YOU'VE read. Your opinion is wrong! And, not only that, your opinion is also ridiculous! But, thank you for posting and please post again. Roll Eyes
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