Authenticity

[the captain]

Sometimes in the main forum and throughout the others, the question of what is or isn't an authentic style or sound for so-and-so comes up. I have a complicated relationship to the very concept of authenticity in art. That's why this quote, from an interview with (Pulitzer- and PEN/Faulkner-award winning) writer Richard Ford struck me.

I don’t believe ... in a “natural” style. For most writers — for me, definitely — all style is artifice. All is a stretch, although not necessarily a difficult stretch.

http://bulletin.ncsu.edu/2014/03/5-questions-with-richard-ford/

I'm not sure anyone else is interested in discussing the importance--or even the existence--of authenticity in music (or art in general). But if so, this thread seems aptly named.

[Loaf]

I remember when i was much younger and reading something about how the jeans and sneakers and leather jackets look of a band (like The Strokes, back when people thought they were the coolest) was just as much a uniform as something like the BB's striped shirts.

And, a point i find interesting, i like Tom Waits and i'm not a big fan of David Bowie. My brother has the opposite opinion, but we both have the same reason in that we are turned off by the obvious artifice. In Tom Waits' case, i'm willing to buy into the gruff junkyard circus barker act because i think he uses it to hit on some interesting ideas/lyrics/points of view. But i don't like David Bowie because he's a shameless fame hungry mime-turned-media whore with nothing original to say

And as much as something like the NME loves their working class musicians, and they'll use (upper) class to bash anyone they don't like, Joe Strummer is a god to them and he was the privileged son of a foreign service diplomat.

Authenticity matters less to me now as i get older. It's all an act but it's what you do with it that counts

[the captain]

I remember when i was much younger and reading something about how the jeans and sneakers and leather jackets look of a band (like The Strokes, back when people thought they were the coolest) was just as much a uniform as something like the BB's striped shirts.

Along similar lines, I was really affected by the recording of a Frank Zappa show, I believe found on the 1968 Royal Festival Hall album Ahead of Their Time (as well as in some others, I think). A fan shouts at Frank (who was apparently wearing an army jacket, as he did from time to time): "Take off that uniform!"

The audience applauds the heckling protester.

Frank, always quick with quips, turns the crowd with a perfectly timed and delivered line that goes something like "Everyone in this room is wearing a uniform, don't you forget it."

Anyway, I think that my position regarding authenticity is that it's irrelevant: I don't care what you really are and am not convinced that your art would be better if it stayed as closely to your real self as possible. Rather, I care that it's a convincing artifice and, more important, that it's good. If that happens to be informed by the artist's natural life, great. If not, I don't care in the slightest.

[alf wiedersehen]

Along similar lines, I was really affected by the recording of a Frank Zappa show, I believe found on the 1968 Royal Festival Hall album Ahead of Their Time (as well as in some others, I think). A fan shouts at Frank (who was apparently wearing an army jacket, as he did from time to time): "Take off that uniform!"

The audience applauds the heckling protester.

Frank, always quick with quips, turns the crowd with a perfectly timed and delivered line that goes something like "Everyone in this room is wearing a uniform, don't you forget it."

I had the same quote come to mind. I'm not sure if it's on Ahead of Their Time, but it's at the end of "The Little House I Used to Live in" on Burnt Weeny Sandwich. There were some uniformed guards directing people away from the stage, so someone yells out for the guards to take off their uniforms "before it's too late." Frank says "Everyone in this room is wearing a uniform, and don't kid yourself."

Authenticity has never been a big concern of mine when it comes to much of anything. Is it good? Well, okay then.
Although, I refuse to listen to KISS because they're just a vehicle for Gene Simmons to make ungodly amounts of money selling things like KISS caskets.

[the captain]

Although, I refuse to listen to KISS because they're just a vehicle for Gene Simmons to make ungodly amounts of money selling things like KISS caskets.

Thanks for the correction on the Zappa thing, it has been a while since I've heard it.

As for KISS, well, I guess your loss. There is some great stuff. And is what they do substantively different than what most other bands do or have done? There has been plenty of Beatles, Beach Boys, and Monkees merchandise out there over the years, be it dolls, chewing gum, board games, lunchboxes, or whatever else. No question KISS took it to absurd degrees, but absurdity is their whole schtick--they are grown men parading around in leather and makeup while singing about teenage lust and rebellion, after all.

[SMiLE Brian]

Gene Simmons is a money grubber , but I like his 100% honesty in wanting to make as much money as possible.

[Ron]

I think the thing that strikes people and rubs them wrong is hypocrisy.  When people say one thing but live their lives another way. 

Authenticity is definitely something important, imagine Willie Nelson any other way but the way he is.   Authenticity is everything to him. 

It eventually all comes down to your subjective opinion; but one of the reasons every human being likes or dislikes another human being is whether or not they think they're being true, honest, and real. 

Similarly if you get a vibe from a musician that they're full of sh*t, you're probably not going to be a big fan.

Enter John Cougar Mellencamp.

[Ron]

I remember when i was much younger and reading something about how the jeans and sneakers and leather jackets look of a band (like The Strokes, back when people thought they were the coolest) was just as much a uniform as something like the BB's striped shirts.

More so.  The Beach Boys wore striped shirts because Girls liked it. 

The Strokes wore that sh*t because they were going to change the world!  Everybody else was wrong, god dammit they were rebels!

Just fake bullshit. 

We're all guilty of that though in one way or another, somewhere in life so Frank Zappa would be correct in that regard.

[Lowbacca]

Authenticity

Jonathan Richman

Daniel Johnston

Mark Oliver Everett

[Chocolate Shake Man]

There's at least two kinds of authenticity that I can see. There's the authenticity that can be faked - wherein if you act a certain way, dress a certain way, talk about certain facets of life while ignoring others, you can be perceived as "authentic."

Then there's the other form authenticity where you are as true to your own voice as possible, whilst acknowledging that sometimes your voice is inevitably influenced by a slew of other voices.

[the captain]

I think there are more angles than those, even. This evening I'll take a stab at coherence on the subject.

[Please delete my account]

I can't remember ever criticizing or worrying about the want of authenticity of other artists or musicians, but I often find myself thinking about authenticity when I'm trying to write or evaluate my own songs. It's just a rule of thumb I've found, that they seem to sound better to me if they sound "authentically" me (for want of a better word) and not me straining to be someone else. But then I am a Richman disciple. And like all rules of thumb, it can be disregarded when it suits me.

[the captain]

And like all rules of thumb, it can be disregarded when it suits me.

That's the one rule that can't be disregarded! 

[Mr. Verlander]

So you feel that Candlebox was a horrible band, not just because they tried to sound like all of the other 'alternative' bands from that era, but just because they sucked.

[Gabo]

What do u guys think about authenticity in terms of food

[Mr. Verlander]

What do u guys think about authenticity in terms of food

Let's be honest; Taco Bell isn't really 'Mexican'.

[the captain]

What do u guys think about authenticity in terms of food

Tradition is important, and documenting and understanding it is useful ... but disliking something for not being authentic--if it's otherwise good--is absurd.

[Gabo]

yeah I agree. sometimes not being authentic can be cool like David Bowie's Tacos

[Chocolate Shake Man]

For some reason, pho really seems inauthentic.

[Jukka]

Nowadays, I just don't care. Authentic or not, the main thing is how the music sounds like. And hey, even earliest bluesmen had images they played up. Heck, I bet even medieval bards had something like that going on. So my advice is to not let the question of authenticity/inauthenticity to get between you and the music.

[MugginsXO]

There is certainly a case to be made for certain genres and sub-genres requiring certain conditions to be met you know to actually be of that genre. Some are more inclusive than others. 

Apart from specific historical genre stuff, I would suggest that it is very difficult to get a consistent set of rules that can be applied to determine whether an artist is or isn't authentic. Almost always just a result of what this clique or that clique finds cool, an arbitrary flag run up a frequently obnoxious pole. "Computers are bad!" "Computers are great!" "They aren't Indie spirit man!" "They don't play a guitar!" Or of course all manner of guff that comes from something being outside of whatever politics or morality that holds sway. Thankfully the need to stomach such publications and gatekeepers to discover new music is fast becoming outdated. More sophisticated recommendation sites and services based on listening will hopefully remove the need and empower the individual to find things that please and educate apart from the cloggy mob.