Did Mike ever try to get the legal right to record under the BB name (post '98)?

[HeyJude]

As I recall, Summer in Paradise did not start out as a Beach Boys album.  It began as a Mike Love/Terry Melcher/Bruce Johnston recording project, with the idea of making the ultimate "summer album."  Gradually, Carl was coerced or persuaded to participate, and then Al made his small contributions.  It sort of stumbled into becoming a Beach Boys album as the others came in.

Well, Al was off at behavior modification camp or something along those lines during much of the recording, IIRC.

Alan was 'suspended' from the band due to a serious attitude problem. There was a band meeting, issues were addressed and and he made his contributions to the album.

But was Al “suspended” from all group activities, or just not invited to the “SIP” sessions? I don’t recall Al missing any large string of shows in the 1991-1992 timeframe.

I know the “attitude problem” is the wording used in the “ComGuide”, and Mike’s Goldmine interview seems to indeed indicate something along those lines. I’m very curious what those “attitude problems” consisted of. If even the less scandalous biographical descriptions of BB history are at all accurate, most of these guys seemed to have “attitude problems” at one time or another.

I’m interested in the issue raised above in another post concerning the “SIP” sessions starting as a non-BB album. Was it for certain a BB album at the time Al was “suspended?”

Also, I think some folks in the past have snarkily, sarcastically mentioned that perhaps Al had an attitude problems in part because of the material on display during the “SIP” sessions, but I actually wonder if that album might have been a factor. That is, if indeed it was a BB album by the time Al’s ‘tude was on display, was his attitude in part due to seeing that the new group album was being undertaken as essentially a Mike solo album, both in terms of songwriting as well as overall execution? The group essentially funded the album themselves, right? That’s where I would question if it was still not set in stone as a BB album by the time recording commenced, as that would have potentially been a group-funded endeavor.

I also still want to determine what had already occurred some two years prior to the “SIP” era. As I’ve mentioned many times, Peter Ames Carlin’s book mentions that an attempt to oust Al from the band was made in 1990. He doesn’t really offer any specifics or any reasoning behind this. I think I asked him about it on this board some years back and I believe he had seem some reference to this in some sort of paperwork he had seen, but I never saw any further details about this.

I’ve always assumed Mike and Al became more estranged, and in a weird slight role reversal of the 70’s situation, it was Carl who eventually sort of acquiesced and allowed Mike to take control of things, and this in turn estranged Al from Carl and Al was marginalized. (This marginalization became even stronger once Carl was gone, it would seem.) 

[Lowbacca]

I’ve always assumed Mike and Al became more estranged, and in a weird slight role reversal of the 70’s situation, it was Carl who eventually sort of acquiesced and allowed Mike to take control of things, and this in turn estranged Al from Carl and Al was marginalized. (This marginalization became even stronger once Carl was gone, it would seem.) 

That was always my impression as well. Al's case is a weird one. But alas, it's the BBs.

[southbay]

As I recall, Summer in Paradise did not start out as a Beach Boys album.  It began as a Mike Love/Terry Melcher/Bruce Johnston recording project, with the idea of making the ultimate "summer album."  Gradually, Carl was coerced or persuaded to participate, and then Al made his small contributions.  It sort of stumbled into becoming a Beach Boys album as the others came in.

Well, Al was off at behavior modification camp or something along those lines during much of the recording, IIRC.

Alan was 'suspended' from the band due to a serious attitude problem. There was a band meeting, issues were addressed and and he made his contributions to the album.

But was Al “suspended” from all group activities, or just not invited to the “SIP” sessions? I don’t recall Al missing any large string of shows in the 1991-1992 timeframe.

I know the “attitude problem” is the wording used in the “ComGuide”, and Mike’s Goldmine interview seems to indeed indicate something along those lines. I’m very curious what those “attitude problems” consisted of. If even the less scandalous biographical descriptions of BB history are at all accurate, most of these guys seemed to have “attitude problems” at one time or another.

I’m interested in the issue raised above in another post concerning the “SIP” sessions starting as a non-BB album. Was it for certain a BB album at the time Al was “suspended?”

Also, I think some folks in the past have snarkily, sarcastically mentioned that perhaps Al had an attitude problems in part because of the material on display during the “SIP” sessions, but I actually wonder if that album might have been a factor. That is, if indeed it was a BB album by the time Al’s ‘tude was on display, was his attitude in part due to seeing that the new group album was being undertaken as essentially a Mike solo album, both in terms of songwriting as well as overall execution? The group essentially funded the album themselves, right? That’s where I would question if it was still not set in stone as a BB album by the time recording commenced, as that would have potentially been a group-funded endeavor.

I also still want to determine what had already occurred some two years prior to the “SIP” era. As I’ve mentioned many times, Peter Ames Carlin’s book mentions that an attempt to oust Al from the band was made in 1990. He doesn’t really offer any specifics or any reasoning behind this. I think I asked him about it on this board some years back and I believe he had seem some reference to this in some sort of paperwork he had seen, but I never saw any further details about this.

I’ve always assumed Mike and Al became more estranged, and in a weird slight role reversal of the 70’s situation, it was Carl who eventually sort of acquiesced and allowed Mike to take control of things, and this in turn estranged Al from Carl and Al was marginalized. (This marginalization became even stronger once Carl was gone, it would seem.) 

Indeed, the great Black Hole in Beach Boys history.  I've never seen anybody really answer these questions.  Those who  have covered  this period time (be it Carlin, Stebbins, et al) seem to gloss over it in mere paragraphs with a resulting frustration to this reader. Whether that is because the author thinks this period is ultimately not interesting or they simply do not have the information I don't know...

[HeyJude]

Indeed, the great Black Hole in Beach Boys history.  I've never seen anybody really answer these questions.  Those who  have covered  this period time (be it Carlin, Stebbins, et al) seem to gloss over it in mere paragraphs with a resulting frustration to this reader. Whether that is because the author thinks this period is ultimately not interesting or they simply do not have the information I don't know...

I’ve always felt it was both. Some of the authors don’t seem to feel it was that interesting or noteworthy. I got the sense Carlin for instance didn’t really seem to be terribly overly interested in an attempt to oust a member of the band in 1990. That struck me as kind of a big deal. He did mention it in the book, but didn’t seem overly concerned.

I think Stebbins has more of an interest, especially concerning the 97/98 timeframe, as it involved Dave. But even in the Marks book, there is frustratingly little information. I sense particularly with the Stebbins/Marks book, it may have been more due to lack of detailed information being available, and/or still legal issues that couldn’t be delved into in too much detail.

I had one “insider” privately explain pretty explicitly way back in the late 90’s what the business breakdown of the tour operation was, and how changes in that setup were one of the key ingredients in the group splintering in the 1998 timeframe. But this breakdown has still never been published in detail. It’s not super complicated. It basically takes a few sentences, a short paragraph to explain. The Stebbins/Marks book comes closest, but it doesn’t get into the specific breakdown. My guess would be that is due either to lack of specific sources available to cite, and/or legal implications of getting into that much detail. That nobody has published this in explicit detail is perhaps what gives some “fans” pause to get into it as well. I dunno.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Uh... Brian didn't put together the TSS/TWGMTR/C50 package together all on his own. That's my understanding, anyway.

That really interesting Joe Thomas interview from 2012 actually did say that it basically was Brian that first called him up to check out the material they put together in the '90s, and then also that it was Brian who brought a tape of four songs (including "Summer's Gone) to the Capitol Tower to see if they'd be interested in a new Beach Boys album. So if indeed Joe was telling the truth, then Brian did in fact have a hand in that whole deal.

A hand, yes. All by himself... no.

[Alan Smith]

Keep in mind that going back to the band's first attempts to shop for a new label after the Capitol agreement was up, Brian's participation was a key factor to the point where the contracts going back to those early Warner/Reprise negotiations stipulated that he would have to be involved to a certain degree in the recording process, or else there was no deal. And even into the later 70's, the band had to tempt potential "buyers" with things like the Smile tapes and Brian's involvement in the process in order to wrangle better offers from bigger labels.

That's all recorded history, but important to note because when Brian was definitely not involved in an album project, and publicly so, the results were Summer In Paradise which did nothing to capitalize on the MTV/single/soundtrack success of Kokomo, in fact it could be argued the album took whatever momentum and value it had given the Beach Boys brand name and squandered it.

Forward to That's Why God Made The Radio - The deal was struck, Brian was actively on board, the album goes top 5 on the charts.

It's pretty simple logic from a sales/value perspective, when Brian is involved in a Beach Boys project along with original members, it has many times the value to labels and sales potential than when he is not. And I think it would be a hard sell if not an impossible one in 2014 and beyond (and going back to the 90's) to shop a Beach Boys album without Brian Wilson's name on it somewhere. In fact there is probably no desire to even consider shopping such a project as long as the band members are still active because the interest wouldn't be there.

Agree, and let us not forget to note the Beach Boys got a deal of some sort for Summer In Nashville (Stars/Stripes), due to the Brian/full band involvement.

[guitarfool2002]

Keep in mind that going back to the band's first attempts to shop for a new label after the Capitol agreement was up, Brian's participation was a key factor to the point where the contracts going back to those early Warner/Reprise negotiations stipulated that he would have to be involved to a certain degree in the recording process, or else there was no deal. And even into the later 70's, the band had to tempt potential "buyers" with things like the Smile tapes and Brian's involvement in the process in order to wrangle better offers from bigger labels.

That's all recorded history, but important to note because when Brian was definitely not involved in an album project, and publicly so, the results were Summer In Paradise which did nothing to capitalize on the MTV/single/soundtrack success of Kokomo, in fact it could be argued the album took whatever momentum and value it had given the Beach Boys brand name and squandered it.

Forward to That's Why God Made The Radio - The deal was struck, Brian was actively on board, the album goes top 5 on the charts.

It's pretty simple logic from a sales/value perspective, when Brian is involved in a Beach Boys project along with original members, it has many times the value to labels and sales potential than when he is not. And I think it would be a hard sell if not an impossible one in 2014 and beyond (and going back to the 90's) to shop a Beach Boys album without Brian Wilson's name on it somewhere. In fact there is probably no desire to even consider shopping such a project as long as the band members are still active because the interest wouldn't be there.

Agree, and let us not forget to note the Beach Boys got a deal of some sort for Summer In Nashville (Stars/Stripes), due to the Brian/full band involvement.

Good point, and I remember when Little Deuce Coupe seemed to be the lead single the Beach Boys - all surviving members including Brian but minus David - appeared on Letterman's show doing backing vocals for the singer who did lead. And I thought...well, the performance was solid and everything, but wasn't that sort of a waste to have the freakin' Beach Boys singing backup for an up-and-coming country singer instead of having them as a band play instead? That was some of what applied to a lot of that album project, it just didn't hit the mark.

[HeyJude]

Keep in mind that going back to the band's first attempts to shop for a new label after the Capitol agreement was up, Brian's participation was a key factor to the point where the contracts going back to those early Warner/Reprise negotiations stipulated that he would have to be involved to a certain degree in the recording process, or else there was no deal. And even into the later 70's, the band had to tempt potential "buyers" with things like the Smile tapes and Brian's involvement in the process in order to wrangle better offers from bigger labels.

That's all recorded history, but important to note because when Brian was definitely not involved in an album project, and publicly so, the results were Summer In Paradise which did nothing to capitalize on the MTV/single/soundtrack success of Kokomo, in fact it could be argued the album took whatever momentum and value it had given the Beach Boys brand name and squandered it.

Forward to That's Why God Made The Radio - The deal was struck, Brian was actively on board, the album goes top 5 on the charts.

It's pretty simple logic from a sales/value perspective, when Brian is involved in a Beach Boys project along with original members, it has many times the value to labels and sales potential than when he is not. And I think it would be a hard sell if not an impossible one in 2014 and beyond (and going back to the 90's) to shop a Beach Boys album without Brian Wilson's name on it somewhere. In fact there is probably no desire to even consider shopping such a project as long as the band members are still active because the interest wouldn't be there.

Agree, and let us not forget to note the Beach Boys got a deal of some sort for Summer In Nashville (Stars/Stripes), due to the Brian/full band involvement.

Good point, and I remember when Little Deuce Coupe seemed to be the lead single the Beach Boys - all surviving members including Brian but minus David - appeared on Letterman's show doing backing vocals for the singer who did lead. And I thought...well, the performance was solid and everything, but wasn't that sort of a waste to have the freakin' Beach Boys singing backup for an up-and-coming country singer instead of having them as a band play instead? That was some of what applied to a lot of that album project, it just didn't hit the mark.

Unlike "SIP", I think the blame for the "Stars and Stripes" debacle can more easily be spread around to many or most of the members. Not surprisingly, they've rarely if ever been asked about that project after it occurred.

[Alan Smith]

Keep in mind that going back to the band's first attempts to shop for a new label after the Capitol agreement was up, Brian's participation was a key factor to the point where the contracts going back to those early Warner/Reprise negotiations stipulated that he would have to be involved to a certain degree in the recording process, or else there was no deal. And even into the later 70's, the band had to tempt potential "buyers" with things like the Smile tapes and Brian's involvement in the process in order to wrangle better offers from bigger labels.

That's all recorded history, but important to note because when Brian was definitely not involved in an album project, and publicly so, the results were Summer In Paradise which did nothing to capitalize on the MTV/single/soundtrack success of Kokomo, in fact it could be argued the album took whatever momentum and value it had given the Beach Boys brand name and squandered it.

Forward to That's Why God Made The Radio - The deal was struck, Brian was actively on board, the album goes top 5 on the charts.

It's pretty simple logic from a sales/value perspective, when Brian is involved in a Beach Boys project along with original members, it has many times the value to labels and sales potential than when he is not. And I think it would be a hard sell if not an impossible one in 2014 and beyond (and going back to the 90's) to shop a Beach Boys album without Brian Wilson's name on it somewhere. In fact there is probably no desire to even consider shopping such a project as long as the band members are still active because the interest wouldn't be there.

Agree, and let us not forget to note the Beach Boys got a deal of some sort for Summer In Nashville (Stars/Stripes), due to the Brian/full band involvement.

Good point, and I remember when Little Deuce Coupe seemed to be the lead single the Beach Boys - all surviving members including Brian but minus David - appeared on Letterman's show doing backing vocals for the singer who did lead. And I thought...well, the performance was solid and everything, but wasn't that sort of a waste to have the freakin' Beach Boys singing backup for an up-and-coming country singer instead of having them as a band play instead? That was some of what applied to a lot of that album project, it just didn't hit the mark.

Unlike "SIP", I think the blame for the "Stars and Stripes" debacle can more easily be spread around to many or most of the members. Not surprisingly, they've rarely if ever been asked about that project after it occurred.

I think if Mike/Terry have to wear SIP, then Brian/Joe have to wear SIN. All others who appeared, I'm not sure what they were thinking.

[Matt H]

Keep in mind that going back to the band's first attempts to shop for a new label after the Capitol agreement was up, Brian's participation was a key factor to the point where the contracts going back to those early Warner/Reprise negotiations stipulated that he would have to be involved to a certain degree in the recording process, or else there was no deal. And even into the later 70's, the band had to tempt potential "buyers" with things like the Smile tapes and Brian's involvement in the process in order to wrangle better offers from bigger labels.

That's all recorded history, but important to note because when Brian was definitely not involved in an album project, and publicly so, the results were Summer In Paradise which did nothing to capitalize on the MTV/single/soundtrack success of Kokomo, in fact it could be argued the album took whatever momentum and value it had given the Beach Boys brand name and squandered it.

Forward to That's Why God Made The Radio - The deal was struck, Brian was actively on board, the album goes top 5 on the charts.

It's pretty simple logic from a sales/value perspective, when Brian is involved in a Beach Boys project along with original members, it has many times the value to labels and sales potential than when he is not. And I think it would be a hard sell if not an impossible one in 2014 and beyond (and going back to the 90's) to shop a Beach Boys album without Brian Wilson's name on it somewhere. In fact there is probably no desire to even consider shopping such a project as long as the band members are still active because the interest wouldn't be there.

Agree, and let us not forget to note the Beach Boys got a deal of some sort for Summer In Nashville (Stars/Stripes), due to the Brian/full band involvement.

Good point, and I remember when Little Deuce Coupe seemed to be the lead single the Beach Boys - all surviving members including Brian but minus David - appeared on Letterman's show doing backing vocals for the singer who did lead. And I thought...well, the performance was solid and everything, but wasn't that sort of a waste to have the freakin' Beach Boys singing backup for an up-and-coming country singer instead of having them as a band play instead? That was some of what applied to a lot of that album project, it just didn't hit the mark.

Unlike "SIP", I think the blame for the "Stars and Stripes" debacle can more easily be spread around to many or most of the members. Not surprisingly, they've rarely if ever been asked about that project after it occurred.

I think if Mike/Terry have to wear SIP, then Brian/Joe have to wear SIN. All others who appeared, I'm not sure what they were thinking.

What is SIN?

[HeyJude]

Keep in mind that going back to the band's first attempts to shop for a new label after the Capitol agreement was up, Brian's participation was a key factor to the point where the contracts going back to those early Warner/Reprise negotiations stipulated that he would have to be involved to a certain degree in the recording process, or else there was no deal. And even into the later 70's, the band had to tempt potential "buyers" with things like the Smile tapes and Brian's involvement in the process in order to wrangle better offers from bigger labels.

That's all recorded history, but important to note because when Brian was definitely not involved in an album project, and publicly so, the results were Summer In Paradise which did nothing to capitalize on the MTV/single/soundtrack success of Kokomo, in fact it could be argued the album took whatever momentum and value it had given the Beach Boys brand name and squandered it.

Forward to That's Why God Made The Radio - The deal was struck, Brian was actively on board, the album goes top 5 on the charts.

It's pretty simple logic from a sales/value perspective, when Brian is involved in a Beach Boys project along with original members, it has many times the value to labels and sales potential than when he is not. And I think it would be a hard sell if not an impossible one in 2014 and beyond (and going back to the 90's) to shop a Beach Boys album without Brian Wilson's name on it somewhere. In fact there is probably no desire to even consider shopping such a project as long as the band members are still active because the interest wouldn't be there.

Agree, and let us not forget to note the Beach Boys got a deal of some sort for Summer In Nashville (Stars/Stripes), due to the Brian/full band involvement.

Good point, and I remember when Little Deuce Coupe seemed to be the lead single the Beach Boys - all surviving members including Brian but minus David - appeared on Letterman's show doing backing vocals for the singer who did lead. And I thought...well, the performance was solid and everything, but wasn't that sort of a waste to have the freakin' Beach Boys singing backup for an up-and-coming country singer instead of having them as a band play instead? That was some of what applied to a lot of that album project, it just didn't hit the mark.

Unlike "SIP", I think the blame for the "Stars and Stripes" debacle can more easily be spread around to many or most of the members. Not surprisingly, they've rarely if ever been asked about that project after it occurred.

I think if Mike/Terry have to wear SIP, then Brian/Joe have to wear SIN. All others who appeared, I'm not sure what they were thinking.

Mike Love was listed as "Executive Producer" on "Stars and Stripes" if I'm recalling correctly. I don't think he was quite just tagging along on that project.

[bringahorseinhere?]

Keep in mind that going back to the band's first attempts to shop for a new label after the Capitol agreement was up, Brian's participation was a key factor to the point where the contracts going back to those early Warner/Reprise negotiations stipulated that he would have to be involved to a certain degree in the recording process, or else there was no deal. And even into the later 70's, the band had to tempt potential "buyers" with things like the Smile tapes and Brian's involvement in the process in order to wrangle better offers from bigger labels.

That's all recorded history, but important to note because when Brian was definitely not involved in an album project, and publicly so, the results were Summer In Paradise which did nothing to capitalize on the MTV/single/soundtrack success of Kokomo, in fact it could be argued the album took whatever momentum and value it had given the Beach Boys brand name and squandered it.

Forward to That's Why God Made The Radio - The deal was struck, Brian was actively on board, the album goes top 5 on the charts.

It's pretty simple logic from a sales/value perspective, when Brian is involved in a Beach Boys project along with original members, it has many times the value to labels and sales potential than when he is not. And I think it would be a hard sell if not an impossible one in 2014 and beyond (and going back to the 90's) to shop a Beach Boys album without Brian Wilson's name on it somewhere. In fact there is probably no desire to even consider shopping such a project as long as the band members are still active because the interest wouldn't be there.

Agree, and let us not forget to note the Beach Boys got a deal of some sort for Summer In Nashville (Stars/Stripes), due to the Brian/full band involvement.

Good point, and I remember when Little Deuce Coupe seemed to be the lead single the Beach Boys - all surviving members including Brian but minus David - appeared on Letterman's show doing backing vocals for the singer who did lead. And I thought...well, the performance was solid and everything, but wasn't that sort of a waste to have the freakin' Beach Boys singing backup for an up-and-coming country singer instead of having them as a band play instead? That was some of what applied to a lot of that album project, it just didn't hit the mark.

Unlike "SIP", I think the blame for the "Stars and Stripes" debacle can more easily be spread around to many or most of the members. Not surprisingly, they've rarely if ever been asked about that project after it occurred.

I thought the concept of 'stars' was great, with a couple of decent tunes on there....

the weak part was the picking of 'upcoming artists' or using artists that were 'so so'....

the vocals by the 'guys' are quite great you know........ the arrangements??..... err and ahh.....

with a mainstream producer at the helm, nothing against Joe and Brian..... of someone left field like

a Jack White or Rick Rubin of the time, it could have been a great contrast.......

but Sawyer Brown, T Graham, Colin Raye, Who The F$%?  is James House.....?? really??

I guess it all comes down to the money aspect, but why not try and get the creative country artists...

I guess it's all money..... but what may have been obvious to me are........

Garth, Waylon (who use to do Sloop John in early days) , Cash (also did Sloop John), (...Willie was a good one!)...... Hank Jr,

Vince Gill (like the Brian tribute show), Dwight (who also does a 'cringeworthy' version of Sloop - youtube it).... I did like Junior Brown

BUT!, the point is a lack of creative artists combined....

even interesting watching the BB/Toby Keith segment is so boring and out of place......

if it were the Toby of 'today'........ maybe different, but he was 'green' there..... and it really shows....

not in either 'camps' favors.......

RickB

[Wirestone]

Pretty sure Stars was Mike's idea, attempting to follow what the Eagles had done -- releasing a popular country covers record, followed by a disc of original material. Brian got on board when he heard that Willie Nelson was involved.

Not anyone's finest hour, but more (to my mind) because of the generally poor quality of artists involved and the sterile backing tracks. Willie is great, as is Tim Schmidt. And Brian's newly arranged tag for the end of "Caroline, No" is one of his greatest moments of the '90s.

It really should have been a TV special rather than an album ...

[guitarfool2002]

Thank you for mentioning Junior Brown in that project: The year before the BB's project, he had just been breaking nationally, and after seeing him and his Guit-Steel hybrid guitar rip the place apart on Conan's show, I got a chance to see him at a relatively small club in Boston. I got there early, hung around, and had the chance to stand front-row center in front of him the entire show, I was a few feet away so I could try to figure out what the heck he was playing and how he was playing it! I looked around and noticed many workers from the various guitar shops in Boston there too, and the guy was ridiculously good and entertaining. Playing authentic, old-school country and working in Hendrix style licks, banjo rolls, crazy good lap steel, feedback, all-out jams...it was one of the best guitar nights I ever had. I was learning the songs from his albums, practicing like hell, following his TV appearances...he was really unique. A nice deep country lead voice too, throwback sound totally opposite of George Strait, Vince Gill, etc who were doing the higher sound.

Psyched as anything to see what he'd do with the Beach Boys. I can't explain how much more I thought they could have done with it and with his unique sound and talent. He was under-utilized, I didn't think the song was a good fit as they had it arranged for a short single-length cut, there was no room at all on the 2-minute long track for him to actually *play guitar* and expand beyond one lead break, and it wasn't really what I hoped for.

Put it this way: If you invite a world-class chef specifically known for making seafood dishes like no other onto a TV show to show his talents, you wouldn't expect him to make a Filet-O-Fish and fries. You get Junior Brown in the studio, let the man play his guitar. Simple.

Forget Smiley Smile, that whole project was the real bunt instead of the grand slam...more like a foul tip, but who's keeping score.

[bringahorseinhere?]

ahhh !!!  Junior Brown.......

he is a marvel to watch and listen to..... a very underappreciated guitar picker......

guys who wanna check out some 'crazy' awesome 'out of the box' guitar/slide pickin.....

check out Junior Brown's 'Semi-Crazy' album....... even has a 'surf' medley...

but the funky playin is in stuff like 'I hung it up'.... OT, sorry, but yeah his pickin magic could have

been used stronger on 'Stars'....

RickB

[tpesky]

I always wondered how much of Al's attitude problem was that he simply was loudly disagreeing with Mike at the time and Carl stayed neutral/bowed to Mike. It is interesting to note that Al went from being suspended in 92 to basically being in control ( shared with Carl) of the 93 box set tour.

[urbanite]

Didn't Mike and Al have control of the ship for the recording of MIU, which in my opinion was a mess.  And then to name a Beach Boys album after the Maharishi, so much for commercial instincts being important.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The single worst aspect of S&SV1 ?

"Brian ? Joe Thomas. Pleased to meet you."

[HeyJude]

I always wondered how much of Al's attitude problem was that he simply was loudly disagreeing with Mike at the time and Carl stayed neutral/bowed to Mike. It is interesting to note that Al went from being suspended in 92 to basically being in control ( shared with Carl) of the 93 box set tour.

In Al’s 2000 “Goldmine” interview, he does allude to this a bit. He mentions that in the 90’s he had given an interview where he criticized the cheerleaders being on stage, and says he “got in trouble” for making those comments. I would presume this to mean Mike was not happy about. Al goes on to say in the 2000 interview that eventually Mike gave in to getting rid of the cheerleaders. I’m kind of curious if Mike was really giving into pressure from other band members, or perhaps it was just a cost-cutting move.

I’m not sure how much Al and Carl had wrestled any control in doing the ’93 boxed set tour. It appears from what we know that Mike simply went along with it, essentially “letting” it happen. I’m not even sure Mike was present at all of the extra rehearsals they did for that tour. I know a rehearsal recording from Big Sur exists, and I don’t think Mike is even present.

[HeyJude]

The single worst aspect of S&SV1 ?

"Brian ? Joe Thomas. Pleased to meet you."

Considering, even with their flaws, that “Imagination” and “TWGMTR” (more the latter) were markedly better than S&S, and were better than some other group projects that didn’t involve Thomas, I’d say the S&S project itself and its resulting sub-par quality are far more objectionable than the entrance of Thomas into Brian and the group’s orbit. This is especially so in light of the fact that that piece of dreck was the last thing Carl worked on with the group.

There is also a case to be made that Thomas was a key player in making the reunion album and tour happen. If those things hadn’t happened without Thomas, then I’d make an argument that introducing Brian to Thomas was ironically a good thing.

Doesn’t mean I like his production style, or his arrangement style, or, sometimes, his choice of material. I wish someone would ban Thomas from using oboes or pretty much any woodwind. 

[doc smiley]

just for the record... I don't think the Boy's cover of Crocodile Rock is really all that bad...  Personally I think Al should have sung all of it ( so tired of handoff vocals by this point), but really, what was anyone expecting with a cover of that song?.
Biggest issue I have with that whole  endeavour is that it was the wrong song.. Chameleon ( from Blue moves anyone?)

[Bicyclerider]

Indeed, the great Black Hole in Beach Boys history.  I've never seen anybody really answer these questions.  Those who  have covered  this period time (be it Carlin, Stebbins, et al) seem to gloss over it in mere paragraphs with a resulting frustration to this reader. Whether that is because the author thinks this period is ultimately not interesting or they simply do not have the information I don't know...

I’ve always felt it was both. Some of the authors don’t seem to feel it was that interesting or noteworthy. I got the sense Carlin for instance didn’t really seem to be terribly overly interested in an attempt to oust a member of the band in 1990. That struck me as kind of a big deal. He did mention it in the book, but didn’t seem overly concerned.

I think Stebbins has more of an interest, especially concerning the 97/98 timeframe, as it involved Dave. But even in the Marks book, there is frustratingly little information. I sense particularly with the Stebbins/Marks book, it may have been more due to lack of detailed information being available, and/or still legal issues that couldn’t be delved into in too much detail.

I had one “insider” privately explain pretty explicitly way back in the late 90’s what the business breakdown of the tour operation was, and how changes in that setup were one of the key ingredients in the group splintering in the 1998 timeframe. But this breakdown has still never been published in detail. It’s not super complicated. It basically takes a few sentences, a short paragraph to explain. The Stebbins/Marks book comes closest, but it doesn’t get into the specific breakdown. My guess would be that is due either to lack of specific sources available to cite, and/or legal implications of getting into that much detail. That nobody has published this in explicit detail is perhaps what gives some “fans” pause to get into it as well. I dunno.

This is also covered in Jon's "FAQs" book, although exact details of the tour business arrangement that Al so vocifereously disagreed with and caused his "attitutde" are not spelled out.  Seems like Carl didn't have the will to fight  Mike at this point and he let him "have it his way" which pissed Al off.

[guitarfool2002]

Interesting to note how in the late 70's it was Al and Mike on one "side" and the Wilsons on the other, to the point where it's reported they traveled in separate planes, limos, etc. Then came the 90's, and beyond the obvious name rights issue, is there anything on the record for what caused the problems even before that case of Al's "family and friends" legal troubles? Some accounts say there were efforts to get Al out of the band at various times, and yet I can't remember what the specifics could have been if they were ever detailed.

And just to clarify without re-reading everything, is the naming-rights and usage agreement for the band's name and live performances exclusive, or non-exclusive...meaning someone could either apply for official permission and a "license" to use the name (which I assume could be petitioned and then voted on at the BRI level), or whoever holds that at the moment has exclusive rights and no one else can even apply for it?

[Wirestone]

And just to clarify without re-reading everything, is the naming-rights and usage agreement for the band's name and live performances exclusive, or non-exclusive...meaning someone could either apply for official permission and a "license" to use the name (which I assume could be petitioned and then voted on at the BRI level), or whoever holds that at the moment has exclusive rights and no one else can even apply for it?

It was non-exclusive for a time -- when Al toured under the BBF&F name. Brian could have theoretically toured his own BB group too, I guess. But after Al clashed with BRI over financial matters, and after the lawsuit, I believe Mike ended up with an exclusive license.

It has been debated here whether that means Mike has rights to tour with the name in perpetuity or not (that is, does the BRI board have to meet to consider whether to re-license the name to him at regular intervals), but no one seems to know. If all the BRI shareholders want to change something they clearly can (the C50 shows, for instance), but the intricacies of Mike's arrangement are a bit unclear.

[guitarfool2002]

And just to clarify without re-reading everything, is the naming-rights and usage agreement for the band's name and live performances exclusive, or non-exclusive...meaning someone could either apply for official permission and a "license" to use the name (which I assume could be petitioned and then voted on at the BRI level), or whoever holds that at the moment has exclusive rights and no one else can even apply for it?

It was non-exclusive for a time -- when Al toured under the BBF&F name. Brian could have theoretically toured his own BB group too, I guess. But after Al clashed with BRI over financial matters, and after the lawsuit, I believe Mike ended up with an exclusive license.

It has been debated here whether that means Mike has rights to tour with the name in perpetuity or not (that is, does the BRI board have to meet to consider whether to re-license the name to him at regular intervals), but no one seems to know. If all the BRI shareholders want to change something they clearly can (the C50 shows, for instance), but the intricacies of Mike's arrangement are a bit unclear.

Interesting - thanks for the info. Some reports suggested Al could have toured under the friends and family name if he had applied to BRI for a "license" to do so, but because he did not go through the process he lost the case. Does this sound right? It's one thing to have it be brought to a BRI vote, be rejected, but use the name anyway - But if it were just a case of petitioning BRI to use the name, since the contract(s) were non-exclusive, why didn't he just apply for it and have it come to a vote? I can't see where a band comprised of board members' children and relatives would have voted against themselves in an indirect way for the name "Beach Boys Family And Friends".

There seems to be so much more to these stories.

And is that original agreement which Mike is holding coming up for another BRI vote anytime soon?