gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
680601 Posts in 27601 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 29, 2024, 12:50:23 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: I need SMiLE experts to help answering mixing questions.  (Read 2688 times)
Bleachboy
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 117



View Profile
« on: July 24, 2014, 04:03:58 AM »

Hi everybody, I'm trying to get myself to work again on my own stereo version of SMiLE which I started slow long ago (head to toe), but never actualy finished. I own and know how to use multiple DAW such as ProTools and Cubase. I know basic editing and mixing (though I don't want to change the tonal qualities of the original recordings at all, I'll have to find ways around it, but there's no way I'm gonna pitch down/up the BB's vocals ever)


Gee: this is where I need help. No problem at all on this one exept at the very end, on the official version, Al Jardine's "pa pa pa" vocals were cut out, as was the tack piano, to let the "heroes and villains" back vocals fade slowly before the trombone lick. But with the stereo version of Gee available on the Smile Sessions box set, it's impossible to do, is it? I'm sure I heard the solo tack piano track somewhere, but it won't help, since I need the other vocals, all the vocals exept Jardine's. Anyone got a solution? Maybe there's another track anywhere that can isolate that?

I might have some other questions lated, but for now this is basically my main problem. The next one will be finding the right master takes for You Are My Sunshine, in order to get the vocals in synch with the strings.

Thanks very much for any help or suggestions.

I'll post my version later if it's allright, with details of everyting I did if it's of any interest to anyone. I'll definitely not do any anachronism (exept maybe for some Smiley Smile bits).

Cheers!
Logged
zachrwolfe
Guest
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2014, 04:14:40 AM »

« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 08:05:36 PM by zatch » Logged
Dudd
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1045



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2014, 04:37:55 AM »

Save for isolating the vocals, you could crossfade into the mono version at the end if you properly synch them.
Yeah, Barnshine did a good job of that on his edit, so you may as well nab that. One of the many reasons a stereo rerelease of TSS would be lovely.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 04:46:15 AM by Judd » Logged

Quote from: Brian Wilson
It’s going to be the greatest tribute album ever made.
Bleachboy
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 117



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2014, 04:58:54 AM »

Yep that's why I though to do if there wasn't any other possible solution. I might just do that and put the trombone lick one one side to keep the whole thing stereo. Thanks for your answers, I'll drop by later if I need any help!
Logged
Bleachboy
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 117



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2014, 04:40:27 AM »

Hi again.
I arrived (I wouldn't say safely) to the Old Master Painter/My Only Sunshine part of the album. So far I'm pretty happy with the results. The only real dificulty yet has been the "Mohale lule mohale lula" part on DYLW. I don't know why, but even with all the different tracks I have, there was no way I could make it sound right in stereo. The stereo backing track exists, but unless you use a vocal removal plugin, you can't get rid of that annoying slide guitar that's so badly out of tune and keep the whole track stereo. You can do phase inversion but you're left with a mono backing track at the end, so...I also tried to keep the backing track mono and to add stereo backing vocals, but somehow they won't synch. Plus I also have Mike's lead vocals alone, but they're dry, no reverb, and I don't want to add digital reverb at all. It's not really a problem to have some mono snippets in my version, but since I'm so close to the real deal here...

Now can somebody finally tell me what is wrong with "My only sunshine", from where Dennis starts to sing? Why won't it synch with the backing track on disc 3 track 6 of TSS box set? I don't know what trick they used or if the vocals were mixed on the spot with a lost/unknown take, later mixed with the Old Master Painter (we have the good take on this one though), or what...on thing is clear, when the violins start to play along the Dennis' vocals, they clearly play at the same tempo, they start slowly during the "you are my" part. But on TSS d3 T6 the violins come rushing, which means they either used another take, or used some king of time stretching device, but I would say it's the first suggestion since the rest of the take can't be synched either...And, well, the sax solo is completely different...Where is that take?!

Feel free to comment or to add any suggestion. I've yet to hear a proper stereo version of this track...
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 04:49:37 AM by Bleachboy » Logged
Nile
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 158


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2014, 07:06:29 AM »

Hi again.
I arrived (I wouldn't say safely) to the Old Master Painter/My Only Sunshine part of the album. So far I'm pretty happy with the results. The only real dificulty yet has been the "Mohale lule mohale lula" part on DYLW. I don't know why, but even with all the different tracks I have, there was no way I could make it sound right in stereo. The stereo backing track exists, but unless you use a vocal removal plugin, you can't get rid of that annoying slide guitar that's so badly out of tune and keep the whole track stereo. You can do phase inversion but you're left with a mono backing track at the end, so...I also tried to keep the backing track mono and to add stereo backing vocals, but somehow they won't synch. Plus I also have Mike's lead vocals alone, but they're dry, no reverb, and I don't want to add digital reverb at all. It's not really a problem to have some mono snippets in my version, but since I'm so close to the real deal here...

Now can somebody finally tell me what is wrong with "My only sunshine", from where Dennis starts to sing? Why won't it synch with the backing track on disc 3 track 6 of TSS box set? I don't know what trick they used or if the vocals were mixed on the spot with a lost/unknown take, later mixed with the Old Master Painter (we have the good take on this one though), or what...on thing is clear, when the violins start to play along the Dennis' vocals, they clearly play at the same tempo, they start slowly during the "you are my" part. But on TSS d3 T6 the violins come rushing, which means they either used another take, or used some king of time stretching device, but I would say it's the first suggestion since the rest of the take can't be synched either...And, well, the sax solo is completely different...Where is that take?!

Feel free to comment or to add any suggestion. I've yet to hear a proper stereo version of this track...

Donīt know anything about the subject but.. I didnīt know Mike sang lead on DYDW?hmmmmm..... Am I hearing wrong but I hear Brian singin lead?
Logged
Bleachboy
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 117



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2014, 07:59:39 AM »

I'm talking about the "Indian" part near the end, Mike sings lead
Logged
soniclovenoize
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 421



View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2014, 09:11:28 AM »

Hi again.
I arrived (I wouldn't say safely) to the Old Master Painter/My Only Sunshine part of the album. So far I'm pretty happy with the results. The only real dificulty yet has been the "Mohale lule mohale lula" part on DYLW. I don't know why, but even with all the different tracks I have, there was no way I could make it sound right in stereo. The stereo backing track exists, but unless you use a vocal removal plugin, you can't get rid of that annoying slide guitar that's so badly out of tune and keep the whole track stereo. You can do phase inversion but you're left with a mono backing track at the end, so...I also tried to keep the backing track mono and to add stereo backing vocals, but somehow they won't synch. Plus I also have Mike's lead vocals alone, but they're dry, no reverb, and I don't want to add digital reverb at all. It's not really a problem to have some mono snippets in my version, but since I'm so close to the real deal here...

Now can somebody finally tell me what is wrong with "My only sunshine", from where Dennis starts to sing? Why won't it synch with the backing track on disc 3 track 6 of TSS box set? I don't know what trick they used or if the vocals were mixed on the spot with a lost/unknown take, later mixed with the Old Master Painter (we have the good take on this one though), or what...on thing is clear, when the violins start to play along the Dennis' vocals, they clearly play at the same tempo, they start slowly during the "you are my" part. But on TSS d3 T6 the violins come rushing, which means they either used another take, or used some king of time stretching device, but I would say it's the first suggestion since the rest of the take can't be synched either...And, well, the sax solo is completely different...Where is that take?!

Feel free to comment or to add any suggestion. I've yet to hear a proper stereo version of this track...

1) DYLW
On my stereo mixes, I did exactly what you suggest above on the bridge section-- I switched to using the typical mono mix with the lead vocals and muted tremoloa (I am fairly certain that's what that is) with the backing vocals synced up to create a stereo spectrum.  It is certainly possible to sync them properly; I had to edit out fractions of a millisecond on the vocal overdubs to get them to sycn, and each phrase should be re-aligned separately.  See my SMiLE mix in my signature for a sample...

2) OMP
What's going on is on TSS they used a great new remaster of the old acetate of the version with vocals, as that is the only version that survived which features vocals; the multitracks have been lost.  So the thing about audio recorded from tape is that they will never ever synch up properly because tape will never ever play back at precisely the same speed twice (the variance depends on the quality of the machine you are playing back on).  So the stereo instrumental and the mono acetate with vocals will always fall out of sync.  I've found it gets real sloppy if you try to force them together because it's especially bad in this case since one is sourced from the multi-tracks, the other an acetate (which was a fragile vinyl only meant for a few playbacks anyways before it deteriorated!). 

So what I did for my stereo mix of this (and I believe this is what Barnshine did) is when it comes to the "vocal time" of the track, have the mono vocal mix panned completely to the right, fade the right channel out of the stereo mix, and then have the mono mix literally replace the right channel of the stereo mix (since it was predominately cello anyways).  Then fade it out quickly and the stereo mix back again when the french horn comes in.  The effect is that the vocals are to the right, but is that so bad? 

That is what Barnshine did, only he completely muted the left channel (where the stick clicks are) since it falls out of sync quickly.  Instead, on mine I re-aligned the left channel to match the mono channel on the right.  Again, see my SMiLE mix in my signature to hear what I am talking about. 

If you want I can upload wavs of both the DYLW segment and the OMP segment for you to use in your mix, unless you specifically want the challenge of doing it yourself.  Good luck! 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 09:16:33 AM by soniclovenoize » Logged

Bleachboy
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 117



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2014, 09:52:43 AM »

The thing is, even if I switch to mono for the bridge in DYLM, using the official TSS track for example, I don't want to add the stereo back vocals to it because they're already on the mono mix, and the results are not good if you do that. What I can do is making a mono mix of the backing track with phase inversion to suppress the tremola, add the isolated Mike vocals and add the stereo back vocals, but the echo chamber on Mike's vocals will be lost. Using a reverb plugin on Mike's vocals is tempting, but I want to resist!! And moreover, the bass fuzz guitar fades out slowly when the bridge starts, which is not the case with the stereo backing track...I want to stay as close as possible.

Concerning OMP, obviously the two can't synch because they're completely different takes. Hal Blaine is a motherf**king drummer, granted, but probably not THAT good! I switched to mono when the vocal comes in, and switched back to stereo when the sax solo starts. IMO it's better than to put the vocals on the far side of the spectrum, but each solution is a good solution. My aim is to make the thing sounds as best as possible, and it's not neccesarily stereo, and in this case since the vocals sound so far away anyway, it sounds really cool in mono, so I decided to leave it this way.

I have another thing that bugs me in Cabin Essence. That's what I wanted to do: taking the TSS stereo backing track, inverting the phase on the 20 20 version to keep the mono lead vocals (I've always found the 20/20 mix way too hissy and unclear for my taste). The problem comes when I wan to synch the "doing doing doing" vocals with the rest of it...It just won't synch properly! Another problem is, during the chorus, there's not enough natural reverb on the TSS vocals as there are on 20/20 and TSS disc 1...

Thanks for all your help man! Greatly appreciated...
Logged
Bleachboy
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 117



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2014, 08:52:30 AM »

Hi again. I need genius scientists and mathematicians here. Geek time.

Wonderful: From the moment the harpsichord starts playing to the moment it stops playing,

1: The released mono version on TSS is 1m 58s 28 long.
2: The instrumental only version on TSS d3 v1, when a speed+pitch plugin is used to slow it down one whole step (about ten percent slower), is 1m 54s 26 long. It still is faster and therefore shorter than the released version even though it's perfectly in tune with it. The harpsichord is approximately 4,02 seconds shorter.

Granted, I don't use a real tape machine, it's just the audacity plugin than claims to change pitch and timing simultaneously.

What percentage of the tempo should I apply to the instrumental for it to reach the same timing at the end? What is the percentage to apply for it to be 4,02 seconds longer?

OR, is there anyone here who knows, even a little bit, exactly how much a tape should be slowed down  for it to be exactly one whole step slower?

Where is Doc Brown when I need him!!
Logged
Paul2010
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 183


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2014, 08:45:51 AM »

Interesting dilemmas! As I've spent a lot of time on some of the same things, I'd thought I could possibly give a few of my thoughts...

First of all concerning TOMP, if it hasn't been mentioned, it's good to know that on TSS they used another take (an instrumental included on the sessions disc) for the first 'instrumental part' of the disc 1 mono mix. When the vocal comes in, they made a cross-fade to the remastered acetate, but at quite a different point in the track (a few seconds later), strangely enough.

Concerning DYLW, I've almost a stereo mix that satisfies me, and the only stereo version of the 'Hawaiian Bridge' that sounds completely right to me is the on Unsurpassed Masters 16. I've also used the first Bicycle Rider section from that track. Although these sections haven't had a final mix and possibly miss some reverb, the stereo image is very clean and sounds better than mixes that use all sorts of different sources for the various instruments and voices.
I used a gentle high EQ boost to match the sound a bit more to the TSS sections.

Hope this all helps!
Logged
Bleachboy
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 117



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2014, 01:39:04 AM »

Thanks for your suggestions!
Logged
gfx
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.468 seconds with 22 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!