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Author Topic: J.S. Bach's influence on Brian  (Read 11805 times)
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2014, 08:00:13 AM »

Just as a parallel to this, about ten years ago when the topic was Les Paul's possible influence on Brian through multitracking, overdubbing, vari-speeding tapes, even the way Les would stack Mary Ford's vocal harmonies, I mentioned an influence that can be heard in the music...and some came out saying "no, I've heard Brian asked about that and he said no influence..." or whatever the case. Fine. I didn't have access to make even basic videos at that time on my PC.

Then when I did, I was able to do this just to show the similarity.

And no matter what someone can dig up in an interview from 1994 or whenever where Brian dismisses Les Paul, if you listen to this, the influence is clearly there. Unless there is even a remote chance that two passages of music can exist 15 years apart, sharing almost exactly many of the same characteristics like rhythm, tempo, the basic harmonic structure, etc.

And some clown...probably the same jackass who argued the point back on that old circus of a board in the early 2000's...gave this a thumbs down! Haha, there's not enough views to give it a rating, and I get a Siskel-Ebert style mixed reaction. Classic. Grin

Let the ears be the judge, it's only a short clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmdQ0jc6rQg
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« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2014, 11:27:13 AM »

There is a story from Carnie in 50 Sides of the Beach Boys about her playing for Brian the Wilson Phillips cover of Our Prayer. After she plays it for him, he tells her "I have to tell you something. Do you know what inspired me to write Our Prayer? it was Bach."  He then takes her to the piano and plays the chord sequence for her and shows her the Bach-isms that went into that piece of music.  The parallel movement that is in the piece (and Craig is correct - classicists frown on parallel movement), I suspect comes from pop vocal harmony that Brian had also cut his teeth on during his youth.

Brian in 2011 told radio host Jian Ghomeshi that California Girls was influences by Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring.

Now anyone can deny the Bach influence is beyond me.
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Theydon Bois
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« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2014, 11:34:06 AM »

Hi Theydon -

thanks for your contribution and the links.

I have a hunch that you are the person who could give an excellent recommendation (or two) for clavichord (cembalo) performances of the WTC. And I would be very grateful if you'd do so.

Thank you in advance, the Don.

I would truly love to help but sadly I don't have any of these!  In fact, the only non-piano version of which I have any knowledge is Kenneth Gilbert's version (recorded on a restored 17th century harpsichord), which is very highly regarded:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Well-Tempered-Clavier-Book/dp/B0000057CG/ref=sr_1_12?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1406226330&sr=1-12 (cheaper methods of purchasing this music also exist)
Arguably usage of a harpsichord is no better a solution to the problem posed by the WTC than usage of a piano, but I suspect that Gilbert's interpretation will be satisfying enough to your ears to transcend such concerns.  Hope this helps (even if it doesn't answer your question)!
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« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2014, 11:43:07 AM »

The OP mentioned Pet Sounds but I think you're grasping at straws here.


Well, yes,  Brian got a F in music class for his composition of Surfin! Which I think is a great rock number, BTW. Clearly this proves he wanted to rock out not Bach out. It sounds like we basically agree.

Do I hear Die Konzert für 3 und 4 Cembali in his music? No, it's not there.

Since you studied harmony like I have you'll know that jazz pop harmony is the huge in his best arrangements.

Take one of his best vocal arrangements, Your Summer Dream Comes True which is actually a re-working of Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. It's the jazz pop influence that's key. He was just a kid when he did this and it's absolutely brilliant but you wouldn't think it was inspired by Baroque music.

Again, if you're saying a generalized influence exists because he probably had to study a few minuets and Prelude in C Major like most students do then, yes, I think we agree.  But that is so generalized you can attribute a Bach influence to most anyone however the OP referred to specific arrangements and it's not there.

What isn't there in specific arrangements, I mentioned two specific songs from 1966! Was I unclear?

Did you miss the part in both of my posts where I cited specifically "Our Prayer" and "Wonderful" as two of Brian's Bach-influenced pieces? Our Prayer as an example of a typical Bach chorale-style SATB harmonization, and "Wonderful" as a counterpoint. If one had NEVER heard or studied a Bach counterpoint or chorale, one would not be able to WRITE pieces of music that sound like a counterpoint or chorale in the Bach style.

What am I missing?

If you don't hear a direct Bach influence in those, stylistically and technically, you're just not listening.

This is the kind of stuff that gets ridiculous on this forum sometimes.

Unless saying "it's not there" after someone twice lists two *specific examples* is for something other than having a discussion.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2014, 12:40:11 PM »

Let the ears be the judge, it's only a short clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmdQ0jc6rQg
I didn't know Les Paul invented chord progressions that ascend from one octave.
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« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2014, 02:49:46 PM »

There is a story from Carnie in 50 Sides of the Beach Boys about her playing for Brian the Wilson Phillips cover of Our Prayer. After she plays it for him, he tells her "I have to tell you something. Do you know what inspired me to write Our Prayer? it was Bach."  He then takes her to the piano and plays the chord sequence for her and shows her the Bach-isms that went into that piece of music.  The parallel movement that is in the piece (and Craig is correct - classicists frown on parallel movement), I suspect comes from pop vocal harmony that Brian had also cut his teeth on during his youth.

Brian in 2011 told radio host Jian Ghomeshi that California Girls was influences by Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring.

Now anyone can deny the Bach influence is beyond me.

I hear the "Jesu" influence more in "The Little Girl I Once Knew." There's something familiar about the organ parts, though maybe it's not that.
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« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2014, 03:57:15 PM »

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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2014, 04:13:59 PM »

COMMENT:  The key word in this question is "influence." Brian as well as every other person in the western world listens to music via the Well Tempered Scale. This was invented by J.S. Bach.  Therefore, all and I mean ALL music has been directly influenced by J.S. Bach.


I hate to do this since I'm a big fan of your work and your contributions here, but I'm going to have to correct this.  Firstly, Bach did not invent Well Temperament.  The person normally credited with developing this tuning system was Andreas Werckmeister (1645-1706), whose "Werckmeister III" temperament (which he published about in 1691, decades before Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier) was used for tuning pipe organs and is still sometimes used today by period-instrument string ensembles.  Details of the various intervals involved can be found here:

http://www.tonalsoft.com/enc/w/werckmeister.aspx

Some academics (especially Lehman) have argued that Bach developed his own version of Well Temperament, though this idea is based on inferences and is not uncontroversial.  An interesting article on this topic, promoting the theory that Bach used his own tuning:
http://www.bjarne.altervista.org/music/temperament.html

But secondly, even if Bach did invent his own version of Well Temperament, it should be noted that Well Temperament as Bach understood it and Equal Temperament as used today are different things.  So when you say that "every other person in the western world listens to music via the Well Tempered Scale", this is not true.  A good article explaining the difference between the systems and providing details of the different intervals involved can be found here:
http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~mrubinst/tuning/tuning.html

Here's a YouTube video showing the same Bach piece being played using three different tuning systems: the one believed to have been used by Bach, modern Equal Temperament and Werckmeister III:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8M-JzIwbog

I do largely agree though that most Western music after a certain point can point to Bach as a (sometimes distant or indirect) ancestor.  He was the daddy.

COMMENT TO THEYDON BOIS:

Thanks for your (obviously) educated views on the role of Bach in modern music. It was most interesting and certainly educational. I'm all for learning!  I looked at all your references and have been re-educated to a more informative level.

Still I must say that Brian's influences were like 80% The Four Freshman and 1% J.S.Bach. ... if that.

In all the years I've worked with Brian I have never heard him play, listen or talk about Bach. You don't know Brian like I do. All this Bach Influence talk in interviews is just Brian going along with the interviewer to make a point that everyone wants to hear because it is interesting and fashonable to say it.  

I'm sorry, but I just don't see "influence" in any of Brian's compositions. Similarity of tunes or bets, yes. Influence by mathamatical structure, no. I'll be daring and say that I have had more influence than Bach ever had on Brian.

If you were to play any Beach Boy song using a just temperment scale, as soon as a key change would come along you would certainly notice something was off. That's because Brian writes in the Equal temperment scale, the same one J.S.Bach made popular.

Other references are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRlp-OH0OEA for a comparison of equal to just temperment, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLhQDKREltos1KsyVvrU7AvWFdVC7dHu6r&v=Annk8x0GGRU

 ~swd
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 04:54:19 PM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
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« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2014, 07:40:59 PM »

Oh, man, this is just amazing: COMPOSITION
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« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2014, 11:58:48 PM »

While looking into Bach some more, I came across this: link
The seeming shifting of the tempo between fast and slow reminded me of "Wonderful", and there's a point about 8 seconds in where it almost sounds like it could turn into "Wonderful".
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The Heartical Don
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« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2014, 12:43:27 AM »

Hi Theydon -

thanks for your contribution and the links.

I have a hunch that you are the person who could give an excellent recommendation (or two) for clavichord (cembalo) performances of the WTC. And I would be very grateful if you'd do so.

Thank you in advance, the Don.

I would truly love to help but sadly I don't have any of these!  In fact, the only non-piano version of which I have any knowledge is Kenneth Gilbert's version (recorded on a restored 17th century harpsichord), which is very highly regarded:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Well-Tempered-Clavier-Book/dp/B0000057CG/ref=sr_1_12?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1406226330&sr=1-12 (cheaper methods of purchasing this music also exist)
Arguably usage of a harpsichord is no better a solution to the problem posed by the WTC than usage of a piano, but I suspect that Gilbert's interpretation will be satisfying enough to your ears to transcend such concerns.  Hope this helps (even if it doesn't answer your question)!

Hiya Theydon (great, great name BTW - it oozes class...) -

thank you, this is really satisfying to me. See: the name of mr Gilbert immediately resonated with me... I'd lost track of the harpsichord versions somehow (I guess because I began to love comparing the piano versions), but now, after your call, I distinctly recall from years ago that indeed Kenneth Gilbert's was named as one of the mandatory performances to purchase (IIRC by Gramophone, amongst others).

So your reply really is helpful, cheers for that!

THD.
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« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2014, 12:28:05 PM »

There is a story from Carnie in 50 Sides of the Beach Boys about her playing for Brian the Wilson Phillips cover of Our Prayer. After she plays it for him, he tells her "I have to tell you something. Do you know what inspired me to write Our Prayer? it was Bach."  He then takes her to the piano and plays the chord sequence for her and shows her the Bach-isms that went into that piece of music.  The parallel movement that is in the piece (and Craig is correct - classicists frown on parallel movement), I suspect comes from pop vocal harmony that Brian had also cut his teeth on during his youth.

Brian in 2011 told radio host Jian Ghomeshi that California Girls was influences by Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring.

Now anyone can deny the Bach influence is beyond me.

A few folks since you posted this have found a way to deny or dismiss it. I think they just want to argue at this point despite the truth of the matter being presented both by Brian and people around him. Let 'em, unless it gets silly...as it did.
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« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2014, 12:33:45 PM »

sharing almost exactly many of the same characteristics like rhythm

Yes, in fact everyone in contemporary music, including Brian, owes Les Paul - not for his development of multitrack technology, but for his innovative quarter-note rhythms.

Let the ears be the judge, it's only a short clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmdQ0jc6rQg
I didn't know Les Paul invented chord progressions that ascend from one octave.

You guys already know everything about music, nothing left to discover. That's good to know, at least it explains the condescension and tone of these replies.

A few days ago, I'd care. Today, who gives a flying f***.

Have fun replicating.



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« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2014, 12:46:26 PM »


In all the years I've worked with Brian I have never heard him play, listen or talk about Bach. You don't know Brian like I do. All this Bach Influence talk in interviews is just Brian going along with the interviewer to make a point that everyone wants to hear because it is interesting and fashonable to say it.  

With all respect, this doesn't seem to be the case regarding Brian and Bach overall at least in the past 25-30 years and it was described on page one, separate from your own personal interactions before that which I'm not challenging or disputing at all. What I will challenge is the notion that Brian was making this stuff up for the cameras/interviewers, which is impossible to prove or even back up, and I wonder why that notion of Brian essentially lying to be fashionable is brought into this discussion.
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« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2014, 02:39:38 PM »

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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2014, 05:28:45 PM »

sharing almost exactly many of the same characteristics like rhythm

Yes, in fact everyone in contemporary music, including Brian, owes Les Paul - not for his development of multitrack technology, but for his innovative quarter-note rhythms.

Let the ears be the judge, it's only a short clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmdQ0jc6rQg
I didn't know Les Paul invented chord progressions that ascend from one octave.

You guys already know everything about music, nothing left to discover. That's good to know, at least it explains the condescension and tone of these replies.

A few days ago, I'd care. Today, who gives a flying f***.

Have fun replicating.





Hey guitarfool, I was just fooling around. Like appak, I don't find the similarities remarkable, but you feel differently and that's cool with me. Granted, I probably deserved your response but I meant no harm. You contribute a lot of great stuff to the board and you definitely know way more about music than I do, both through your years of experience and your studies, and I'll openly admit that. Smiley

sharing almost exactly many of the same characteristics like rhythm

Yes, in fact everyone in contemporary music, including Brian, owes Les Paul - not for his development of multitrack technology, but for his innovative quarter-note rhythms.

Let the ears be the judge, it's only a short clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmdQ0jc6rQg
I didn't know Les Paul invented chord progressions that ascend from one octave.

You guys already know everything about music, nothing left to discover. That's good to know, at least it explains the condescension and tone of these replies.

A few days ago, I'd care. Today, who gives a flying f***.

Have fun replicating.





Hey guitarfool, I was just fooling around. Like appak, I don't find the similarities remarkable, but you feel differently and that's cool with me. Granted, I probably deserved your response but I meant no harm. You contribute a lot of great stuff to the board and you definitely know way more about music than I do, both through your years of experience and your studies, and I'll openly admit that. Smiley

I took it too far, and I apologize for that. It's just frustrating to see some things being done and said in light of the past few weeks, not to mention the way they're being done and said, and I shouldn't have included you in it because it's basically my hang-up in general as of late. Nothing personal, and again I'm sorry for taking it too far as I did. Your love of the music comes through in your recordings and discussions, and the attention to detail in those recordings is something I really admire, all of it the kind of thing that makes this group of fans so great.

The things I learn from reading and listening to other members of this board far outweigh what I try to contribute when I can, and I hope I'm able to pass on and add some of what I have picked up from resources like this.
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« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2014, 06:44:12 PM »


In all the years I've worked with Brian I have never heard him play, listen or talk about Bach. You don't know Brian like I do. All this Bach Influence talk in interviews is just Brian going along with the interviewer to make a point that everyone wants to hear because it is interesting and fashonable to say it.  

With all respect, this doesn't seem to be the case regarding Brian and Bach overall at least in the past 25-30 years and it was described on page one, separate from your own personal interactions before that which I'm not challenging or disputing at all. What I will challenge is the notion that Brian was making this stuff up for the cameras/interviewers, which is impossible to prove or even back up, and I wonder why that notion of Brian essentially lying to be fashionable is brought into this discussion.


COMMENT:  Did I say Brian is lying?  I said Brian likes to play with interviewers. I further cautioned you to not be taken in by Brian making statements in interviews. That is why made the preamble statement that "You don't know Brian like I do." If you did, you might have a different outlook. I knew going into this discussion that what I said would not be understood by some of you, only because you don't know the man, you know the artist, the writer, the composer, the musician. But you don't know the man. You only know the persona.

So let's be clear, playing the interviewer is not the same as "lying to be fashionable." (Don't put words in my mouth.) The interviewer brings up a subject and makes suggestions. These suggestions for comment are taken as cues ... to speak on the cued subject. Brian is very aware of cues, especially in everyday life. That's what it takes to write popular music.

In an Endless Summer article (spring 2009) David M. Beard calls Brian the Pop Music's Mozart. OK, Fine. But later he reiterates the sentiment I stated earlier, "Having been compared to Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, and Rachmoninoff (among others), Brian's approach to music compositon defies definition."  That is to say, HE IS HIS OWN MAN. He is seperate from those Masters of 18th Century popular music of their day, and I dare say, or rather ask, that given 200 years of time passing, in 2214 will Brian still be popular, like Mozart, Bach Beethoven or Rachmoninoff? Will Brian and The Beach Boys withstand the test of time?  200 years worth! just as the 18th Century Masters have.  In 2214 will Beach Boy fans be asking the question, "What modern composer did Brian Wilson influence?"
 

~swd
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« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2014, 07:53:26 PM »

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« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2014, 03:44:59 AM »

"There's nothing but Bach on this radio. I'm gonna throw it back up in the attic FOR GOOD!..."
Is that a telling tale of Brian's relation towards the music of Bach around that time (1972) quoted from Mt. Vernon & Fairway (a Fairy Tale)?

Here we have an unfiltered spoken words authorship of Brian's - maybe for the last time ever - except for the epilog (Jack Rieley).
If the Prince, the 'eldest of the brothers' represents Brian himself, it is clear that Bach is not (or no longer?) magic music to Brian's ear.. At any rate the magic music broadcasted from the Pied Piper's magic transistor radio allegedly is of an even  higher caliber than Bach's ditto.
My own theory here is that only (the by then still stillborn) SMiLE qualified as such (as per "Dumb Angel Fairy Tale").
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« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2014, 05:23:25 AM »

You guys already know everything about music, nothing left to discover. That's good to know, at least it explains the condescension and tone of these replies.
Les Paul has a very particular style and I wouldn't be surprised if BDW had him in mind at one point. Unfortunately it's impossible to know for sure and I sure as hell wouldn't chalk it to that very simple ascension. I'm a big Nelson Riddle fan but it never occured to me that he may have been an influence -- until BDW stated outright that he believes Riddle was "a genius" at string arranging.

We do know Les Paul is a favorite of VDP's. If VDP always talks about him in interviews, it's likely that he brought him to BDW's attention, and something may have happened from there. Or BDW might have taken a listen to one of his records, thought "Hah yeah that's neat," and then forgot about him.
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« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2014, 09:11:09 AM »

How High The Moon was a massive hit in the early 50's and therefore not exactly an obscure number.
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« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2014, 10:09:43 AM »

How High The Moon was a massive hit in the early 50's and therefore not exactly an obscure number.

In the early 50's Les Paul and Mary Ford were among the most popular recording artists in the country, making hit after hit with Les' "New Sound" which was what we know as overdubbing and vari-speeding, along with stacking Mary's vocals on top of one another and double-tracking leads. It's all stuff we take for granted and have for 60 years, but in the early 50's it was indeed the "new sound", and people ate it up.

They were so popular that Les and Mary got their own network television show, and that too was popular in the 50's.

For guitar fans and collectors: Gibson had a color they called "TV Yellow", you'll see players like Billy Joe from Green Day still using Gibsons with that color. Why "TV Yellow"? They made that for Les and Mary, because they needed to find a color that wouldn't create a glare that would bleed through the television cameras, yet they still wanted the guitars to have a white/bright finish. Hence, TV Yellow became a Gibson color option.

If Brian was in his pre-teen and early teen years in the 50's, and listening to the radio and jukeboxes, he'd have heard Les Paul and Mary Ford records even before Van Dyke may have started talking about them with Brian. They were ubiquitous in the 1950's pop music culture, but just like Arthur Godfrey, the huge success and visibility they had in early 50's America got lost to history.

Les Paul is today most known for his signature namesake Gibson guitar, he's known as a recording pioneer, but in the 50's he and Mary were big celebrities with a string of hit records and a hit television show.
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« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2014, 10:21:36 AM »

My buddy whose a giant Brain fanatic (even among other fanatics) sent me the text of an interview he did off the cuff. He complained about being kind of forced into finishing SMiLE, to tour even to adopt kids. We just don't know as outsiders what Brian is really thinking from his interviews though I do get the sense that he doesn't want to do much of this type of work anymore. He said he has a very hard time saying no but I'm reasonably sure being busy is probably good for him. Having said all this I don't take the Bach bit in the interview with too much weight. I simply go to the music.

Someone mentioned earlier that Brian did his own thing and I think this is 100% true though he stood on the shoulders of The Four Freshmen, Chuck Berry & the like he eventually found his own voice.

Beyond his writing I've also witnessed Brain's heavy handed piano playing style in person, in no way is his playing style influenced by Baroque techniques. He pounds those chords like a jack hammer and I love it.

Sometimes Brian will be astonishingly direct in his interviews other times he's going from a script by his handlers.  I can see where S W Desper is coming from on this.


In all the years I've worked with Brian I have never heard him play, listen or talk about Bach. You don't know Brian like I do. All this Bach Influence talk in interviews is just Brian going along with the interviewer to make a point that everyone wants to hear because it is interesting and fashonable to say it.  



COMMENT:  Did I say Brian is lying?  I said Brian likes to play with interviewers. I further cautioned you to not be taken in by Brian making statements in interviews. That is why made the preamble statement that "You don't know Brian like I do." If you did, you might have a different outlook. I knew going into this discussion that what I said would not be understood by some of you, only because you don't know the man, you know the artist, the writer, the composer, the musician. But you don't know the man. You only know the persona.

So let's be clear, playing the interviewer is not the same as "lying to be fashionable." (Don't put words in my mouth.) The interviewer brings up a subject and makes suggestions. These suggestions for comment are taken as cues ... to speak on the cued subject. Brian is very aware of cues, especially in everyday life. That's what it takes to write popular music.

In an Endless Summer article (spring 2009) David M. Beard calls Brian the Pop Music's Mozart. OK, Fine. But later he reiterates the sentiment I stated earlier, "Having been compared to Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, and Rachmoninoff (among others), Brian's approach to music compositon defies definition."  That is to say, HE IS HIS OWN MAN. He is seperate from those Masters of 18th Century popular music of their day, and I dare say, or rather ask, that given 200 years of time passing, in 2214 will Brian still be popular, like Mozart, Bach Beethoven or Rachmoninoff? Will Brian and The Beach Boys withstand the test of time?  200 years worth! just as the 18th Century Masters have.  In 2214 will Beach Boy fans be asking the question, "What modern composer did Brian Wilson influence?"
 

~swd
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 10:23:42 AM by leftybass77 » Logged
Sheriff John Stone
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« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2014, 11:22:10 AM »

My buddy whose a giant Brain fanatic (even among other fanatics) sent me the text of an interview he did off the cuff. He complained about being kind of forced into finishing SMiLE, to tour even to adopt kids. We just don't know as outsiders what Brian is really thinking from his interviews though I do get the sense that he doesn't want to do much of this type of work anymore. He said he has a very hard time saying no but I'm reasonably sure being busy is probably good for him. Having said all this I don't take the Bach bit in the interview with too much weight. I simply go to the music.

Is there any way you could print that interview?
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leftybass77
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« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2014, 03:34:10 PM »

You must scroll down to
   Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:25:08 +0200
   From: Jens Koch
Subject: Brian Wilson Interview

Just don't kill the messenger on this and if it isn't legit, I'm sorry:
http://spectropop.com/archive/digest/d1613.htm


Is there any way you could print that interview?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 03:37:35 PM by leftybass77 » Logged
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