J.S. Bach's influence on Brian

[JoelKoster]

This is a topic that's begun to intrigue me. I've recently started listening to a lot of JS Bach and have also been studying his compositions a little at Uni. Me being a obsessed BW fan I am beginning to hear little Wilson-esque elements and stuff that remind me of the Pet Sounds era arrangements. I've read various stories and heard interviews with Brian saying that he loves Bach, so I'm trying figure out where Bach comes intro Brian's compositions.
"Don't Talk" is one that definitely has those Bach 'counter melodies' (The guitars and strings) and the chord movement is also very reminiscent and The distant guitar lines in "You Still Believe In Me" also have that Bach flavour. I've also read that Bruce Johnston once said that the instrumental break on "Here Today" is also influenced by Bach.

Does anyone else know where else Bach's influence came into Brian's writing?

[Fire Wind]

Mark Dillon says, regarding 'California Girls', in 'Fifty Sides of the Beach Boys',

"His inspiration was "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring", by Johann Sebastian Bach, whom he credits with inventing the shuffle beat nearly 300 years earlier."

[Stephen W. Desper]

This is a topic that's begun to intrigue me. I've recently started listening to a lot of JS Bach and have also been studying his compositions a little at Uni. Me being a obsessed BW fan I am beginning to hear little Wilson-esque elements and stuff that remind me of the Pet Sounds era arrangements. I've read various stories and heard interviews with Brian saying that he loves Bach, so I'm trying figure out where Bach comes intro Brian's compositions.
"Don't Talk" is one that definitely has those Bach 'counter melodies' (The guitars and strings) and the chord movement is also very reminiscent and The distant guitar lines in "You Still Believe In Me" also have that Bach flavour. I've also read that Bruce Johnston once said that the instrumental break on "Here Today" is also influenced by Bach.

Does anyone else know where else Bach's influence came into Brian's writing?

COMMENT:  Everything music can trace some influence back to JS Bach.  LADY LYNDA by Alan Jardine is evidence of Bach's greatest Beach Boy influence.

You said that you recently started listening to Bach. Appreciation of J.S. Bach and other Master composers is illustrated best by the work of Smalin at his "Music Animation Machine."  Go to https://www.youtube.com/user/smalin  and click on any Bach composition, watch and listen. Bach's, Toccata and Fugue in D minor for organ is a good place to start. The animation enables you to see the genius behind the music and how it all fits together. This is my favorite site to start any appreciation of a classical work of music. Once I have a better understanding of the structure of a piece of music, the more I value the music each time I hear it. The "Music Animation Maxhine" series is an invaluable tool for any music lover.

~SWD

[joshferrell]

take a listen to "Switched on Bach" (both volumes) then listen to "Love You" and you'll hear similarities..."Love you" (to me anyways) is like Brian's "Organ works" just done on the Moog Synth, "Switched on Bach" IS Bach's organ works done on the moog synth..

[leftybass77]

I don't hear it or see it at all. I LOVE Bach and had to do chord analysis of some of his pieces when I studied theory.

[guitarfool2002]

I don't hear it or see it at all. I LOVE Bach and had to do chord analysis of some of his pieces when I studied theory.

Perhaps reconsider or revise that first statement. Anyone who has studied traditional music theory and counterpoint has learned it by studying, analyzing, and writing in the style of Bach. Everything from counterpoint, to SATB chorale writing, to the way intervals and scales are combined to create harmonies and imply chords is taught based on the Bach style and example.

In this case, the guy literally "wrote the book" on the topic! 

So you have someone like me who studied throughout school and had to study it even further to get my music degree, the first examples of SATB harmony and counterpoint I ever had to analyze and then write on my own was from Bach. Same with anyone else who studied music theory, again.

I have used it, or at least the foundation I learned in those traditional studies, to arrange everything from horn sections to vocal backgrounds down to doing a two-guitar textural thing on overdubs for rock and pop songs. Does it sound like Bach? Not exactly...but the concepts I and others are using can be traced to what we learned studying Bach's compositions.

I'd count that as an influence, and one which anyone who has studied Bach would consciously or subconsciously refer to when called on to write something like a counterpoint or a chorale-style part. Because, again, Bach wrote the rules or at least codified them enough to make them identifiable.

Brian studied some traditional theory, he got the assignments in school to block in voices in a SATB format and write a counterpoint, so therefore those were influences and they'd come out.

And while "Our Prayer" isn't a direct copy of a specific Bach piece, it's using Bach's template and characteristic sounds and some of the "rules" too...a lesser or more unskilled writer wouldn't have avoided the dreaded "parallel 4ths and 5ths" as much as Brian did when composing "Our Prayer".

And "Wonderful" - specifically the earlier version with harpsichord, horn, and Bruce Johnston's backing vocal - is probably the closest Brian ever got to writing and structuring a Bach style counterpoint. It follows the so-called "rules" that we learned when studying this stuff in theory classes, and it's a very convincing counterpoint at that.

Is it an accident he recorded it on harpsichord? 

[leftybass77]

Bach was a master of contrapuntal movement.  If you're saying a faint use of this means he was influenced by Bach well then you can say most everyone was influenced by Bach. That's like saying everyone that uses the harmonic minor scale is heavily influenced by Bach.  But no, Bach was not a big influence on Brian's songs.  The use of harpsichord doesn't mean the structure of his music was influenced by Bach, I mean that's just a superficial aspect.


Perhaps the OP meant that on the odd track or two he gets a generalized feel of Baroque music. That makes more sense.

[bossaroo]

Brian has said that Bach was a major influence on Pet Sounds. and California Girls.

[joe_blow]

In this interview, Brian talks a bit about Bach's influence on his music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjG_DpfC-74

[SMiLE-addict]

They didn't call that stuff "Baroque Pop" for nothing.

[leftybass77]

Recently, he also said he would have no idea on how to write a classical piece. That he wouldn't know how to do that.

It's just not there in the music, IMHO.

In this interview, Brian talks a bit about Bach's influence on his music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjG_DpfC-74

[the captain]

Recently, he also said he would have no idea on how to write a classical piece. That he wouldn't know how to do that.

It's just not there in the music, IMHO.

In this interview, Brian talks a bit about Bach's influence on his music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjG_DpfC-74

I agree with leftybass77. We talked about this a bit in one of the few thousand Dennis-song threads, I believe (which eventually got me talking jazz). I'd never say Brian didn't love Bach: he's said he does, and I believe that. And like someone above said, to some extent Bach and the music of his time is so central to all western music that its influence is inescapable. But if I were pointing to influences throughout Brian's actual recorded work, Bach would be pretty low down the list, if present at all.

[leftybass77]

I guess I was thinking of a more pronounced influence like the jazz pop stylings of The Four Freshman or Chuck Berry or exotica of Arthur Lyman.

Recently, he also said he would have no idea on how to write a classical piece. That he wouldn't know how to do that.

It's just not there in the music, IMHO.

In this interview, Brian talks a bit about Bach's influence on his music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjG_DpfC-74

I agree with leftybass77. We talked about this a bit in one of the few thousand Dennis-song threads, I believe (which eventually got me talking jazz). I'd never say Brian didn't love Bach: he's said he does, and I believe that. And like someone above said, to some extent Bach and the music of his time is so central to all western music that its influence is inescapable. But if I were pointing to influences throughout Brian's actual recorded work, Bach would be pretty low down the list, if present at all.

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENT:  The key word in this question is "influence." Brian as well as every other person in the western world listens to music via the Well Tempered Scale. This was invented by J.S. Bach.  Therefore, all and I mean ALL music has been directly influenced by J.S. Bach.

Did Brian listen incessantly to Bach? No. More Spector then Bach? Yes.

Bruce, by way of his technical musical training, understood the mathematical concepts of Bach better than any other Beach Boy. Bruce's involvement in Brian's writing, I would say, was more of a Bach influence than the Master himself.

But still if you are speaking of influence, such as the influence Bach had on Mozart, I would say the influence of Bach on Brian is a “passing” influence. Brian is very much his own man. He is an innovator, building on the works, apart from the Master, having only key structure as a common "influence." The rest of what Brian does is of his own invention. What his comments are in an interview about Beach Boys and Bach is just Brian playing the interviewer.   ~swd
   

[guitarfool2002]

Bach was a master of contrapuntal movement.  If you're saying a faint use of this means he was influenced by Bach well then you can say most everyone was influenced by Bach. That's like saying everyone that uses the harmonic minor scale is heavily influenced by Bach.  But no, Bach was not a big influence on Brian's songs.  The use of harpsichord doesn't mean the structure of his music was influenced by Bach, I mean that's just a superficial aspect.


Perhaps the OP meant that on the odd track or two he gets a generalized feel of Baroque music. That makes more sense.

I know about contrapuntal movement, counterpoint versus counter melody, and all of that stuff. I also know that Brian in high school theory classes studied the same music theory fundamentals I and every other musician who studied traditional theory has studied. Those included the 4-part harmony exercises where you'd block in missing voices and analyze any given chord or chord sequence in a piece of music written in 4-part. It teaches the tools, and the building blocks. Unfortunately if I remember correctly a young Brian turned in a composition as an assignment that was more along the lines of "Surfin" than a Bach-style exercise, and I think he got a poor grade as a result!

But my point is that once you learn the mechanics of that technique, it comes out in your music. Am I saying Bach was a major influence on Brian? No. I'm saying the way Brian worked with voices, chords, and harmonies was something he took a lot from transcribing Four Freshmen records, while even those arrangements and the way they used voice leading as well as counterpoint and specific chord voicings including putting the 3rd or the 5th in the bass voice versus the more obvious and amateur choice of simply singing the root note in the bass was something also seen (and studied) in traditional harmony via Bach. Things like the first and second inversions, various 6ths like the Neopolitan, etc...Did Brian Wilson say "Hey guys, I'm going to end this passage on a Picardy Third!" Hoo boy!"

I doubt it. But the way chords are voiced, shaped, and the way the inner voices transition from one chord to the next in the most basic SATB harmony writing is something most musicians learn by studying Bach, or at least the musical concepts he codified.

I don't like people suggesting "what I'm saying" because most often they're wrong, including this case.

What I said was written in my post, feel free to reed it again before making conclusions that weren't my own. 

I'm saying anyone who *never* listened to or even studied the Bach methods and techniques would *NOT* have written either "Our Prayer" or "Wonderful" as they appeared in their original forms on the Smile sessions. Wonderful is perhaps the only example of what we'd call a Bach style 'counterpoint',  in form , development, and construction.

What many credit as "counterpoint" in Beach Boys vocal parts is actually a combination of counter melodies, not the same thing as counterpoint. But the way Wonderful develops, both in the chords played in the harpsichord, to the melody which enters in contrary motion as sung by Bruce's descending line as Brian's vocal melody ascends, and the way the hit on key chord tones to imply the bigger chord structure in play on any give beat is very much like any Bach-style counterpoint composition.

The harpsichord as lead instrument I don't believe was accidental, I believe it was a nod to whatever performances of various Bach pieces Brian may have listened to or heard up to 1966, for which the harpsichord or the organ were the primary instruments for performing Bach's works other than piano. Bach and harpsichord, depending on the piece, are almost synonymous for his counterpoint pieces, at least in many listeners' minds.

I'm not talking in general and suggesting the majority of Brian Wilson compositions or songs were a Bach influence, because that would be silly and incorrect. What I'm saying is by the nature of Western music since the 1700's, the understanding of harmony and chord structure as learned and taught was something Brian as a musician who studied traditional theory in school would have had in his mind as a tool to use any way he wanted, or when necessary, or even to take the basic concepts and apply them as heard through Four Freshmen or Hi-Lo's records from the 50's with more jazzy tensions and 20th century intervals and harmonies.

"Our Prayer" is an example, again someone who isn't familiar with Bach would not have constructed something like that.

And "Wonderful", the way it is structured and the way it develops, shows that Brian at least knew the mechanics of Bach counterpoint well enough to *apply them* to his own music and compose a convincing counterpoint of his own. he didn't learn that from Four Freshmen or Chuck Berry records.

I also own several Arthur Lyman records, and before citing them as a more direct influence on Brian's instrumental "pet sounds", I'd consider listening to Spector from 1962-63, Bacharach-David from 63-64, Esquivel, Martin Denny, Spike Jones, Les Paul and Mary Ford from the late 40's and early 50's, Rosemary Clooney, Nelson Riddle with Nat Cole and Sinatra, Leiber and Stoller's orchestral pop as heard on the Drifters singles, and even something so far-out and seemingly incongruous as "Calcutta" which was a major hit in '61 and has several specific studio-generated sounds and textures that would soon show up on Brian's productions with the Beach Boys almost verbatim.

I never agreed as much with the Tiki-Exotica-Lyman influence, nor did I ever think Eden Ahbez mattered as much in Brian's sphere of influences as some have suggested. I can see a younger Brian tuning into the Ernie Kovacs TV show and watching Kovacs' dancing furniture and office equipment triggering something in Brian as it was all set to Esquivel's space-age music, which was heavy on technology and a new take on arranging and orchestration, or a much younger Brian watching Spike Jones on TV playing everything from teacups to coconuts, but even those might just have been things he heard and stored away more than the direct influences we can actually hear on his recordings.

[Postcard From Jardine]

.

[The Heartical Don]

Re: the Well-Tempered Clavier -

thanks go out to Stephen W. Desper for mentioning this piece, and its influence, in particular. To pop fans it may sound fairly abstract at first; but still, with a sustained listening effort it's bound to become a perennial favourite (well, it has with me, to start with).

Recommended versions:

Glenn Gould (CBS or Sony): succinct, terse, on the 'staccato' side, IMHO, but still: great, it commands one's attention. Great comment by GG himself, having been asked why he plays several pieces of it so fast: 'Ah, simple: the ones I don't like much I did very quickly indeed, to leave them behind me ASAP.' (Not a reply that many a classical musician will give one, I am certain.)

Edwin Fischer (Naxos Historical, dead cheap, mono): elegant, well-paced, and lovely to start with, it has no obvious 'bias' and still so much feeling. For beer money.

Angela Hewitt (Hyperion): the best most recent performance I know. On a par with her Goldberg Variations (also Bach, same label).

Special recommendation: Sviatoslav Richter (RCA): this is the 'romantic' one. Not sentimental, not syrupy, mind. Just: more elegant, 'dancing', freer... perhaps the best idea for pop fans; also a great starter.

[Nicko1234]

COMMENT:  The key word in this question is "influence." Brian as well as every other person in the western world listens to music via the Well Tempered Scale. This was invented by J.S. Bach.  Therefore, all and I mean ALL music has been directly influenced by J.S. Bach.

Did Brian listen incessantly to Bach? No. More Spector then Bach? Yes.

Bruce, by way of his technical musical training, understood the mathematical concepts of Bach better than any other Beach Boy. Bruce's involvement in Brian's writing, I would say, was more of a Bach influence than the Master himself.

But still if you are speaking of influence, such as the influence Bach had on Mozart, I would say the influence of Bach on Brian is a “passing” influence. Brian is very much his own man. He is an innovator, building on the works, apart from the Master, having only key structure as a common "influence." The rest of what Brian does is of his own invention. What his comments are in an interview about Beach Boys and Bach is just Brian playing the interviewer.   ~swd
   

Thanks as always for your insightful comments Stephen.

[Theydon Bois]

COMMENT:  The key word in this question is "influence." Brian as well as every other person in the western world listens to music via the Well Tempered Scale. This was invented by J.S. Bach.  Therefore, all and I mean ALL music has been directly influenced by J.S. Bach.

I hate to do this since I'm a big fan of your work and your contributions here, but I'm going to have to correct this.  Firstly, Bach did not invent Well Temperament.  The person normally credited with developing this tuning system was Andreas Werckmeister (1645-1706), whose "Werckmeister III" temperament (which he published about in 1691, decades before Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier) was used for tuning pipe organs and is still sometimes used today by period-instrument string ensembles.  Details of the various intervals involved can be found here:
http://www.tonalsoft.com/enc/w/werckmeister.aspx

Some academics (especially Lehman) have argued that Bach developed his own version of Well Temperament, though this idea is based on inferences and is not uncontroversial.  An interesting article on this topic, promoting the theory that Bach used his own tuning:
http://www.bjarne.altervista.org/music/temperament.html

But secondly, even if Bach did invent his own version of Well Temperament, it should be noted that Well Temperament as Bach understood it and Equal Temperament as used today are different things.  So when you say that "every other person in the western world listens to music via the Well Tempered Scale", this is not true.  A good article explaining the difference between the systems and providing details of the different intervals involved can be found here:
http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~mrubinst/tuning/tuning.html

Here's a YouTube video showing the same Bach piece being played using three different tuning systems: the one believed to have been used by Bach, modern Equal Temperament and Werckmeister III:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8M-JzIwbog

I do largely agree though that most Western music after a certain point can point to Bach as a (sometimes distant or indirect) ancestor.  He was the daddy.

[The Heartical Don]

COMMENT:  The key word in this question is "influence." Brian as well as every other person in the western world listens to music via the Well Tempered Scale. This was invented by J.S. Bach.  Therefore, all and I mean ALL music has been directly influenced by J.S. Bach.

I hate to do this since I'm a big fan of your work and your contributions here, but I'm going to have to correct this.  Firstly, Bach did not invent Well Temperament.  The person normally credited with developing this tuning system was Andreas Werckmeister (1645-1706), whose "Werckmeister III" temperament (which he published about in 1691, decades before Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier) was used for tuning pipe organs and is still sometimes used today by period-instrument string ensembles.  Details of the various intervals involved can be found here:
http://www.tonalsoft.com/enc/w/werckmeister.aspx

Some academics (especially Lehman) have argued that Bach developed his own version of Well Temperament, though this idea is based on inferences and is not uncontroversial.  An interesting article on this topic, promoting the theory that Bach used his own tuning:
http://www.bjarne.altervista.org/music/temperament.html

But secondly, even if Bach did invent his own version of Well Temperament, it should be noted that Well Temperament as Bach understood it and Equal Temperament as used today are different things.  So when you say that "every other person in the western world listens to music via the Well Tempered Scale", this is not true.  A good article explaining the difference between the systems and providing details of the different intervals involved can be found here:
http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~mrubinst/tuning/tuning.html

Here's a YouTube video showing the same Bach piece being played using three different tuning systems: the one believed to have been used by Bach, modern Equal Temperament and Werckmeister III:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8M-JzIwbog

I do largely agree though that most Western music after a certain point can point to Bach as a (sometimes distant or indirect) ancestor.  He was the daddy.

Hi Theydon -

thanks for your contribution and the links.

I have a hunch that you are the person who could give an excellent recommendation (or two) for clavichord (cembalo) performances of the WTC. And I would be very grateful if you'd do so.

Thank you in advance, the Don.

[rasmus skotte]

"There's nothing but Bach on this radio!..." is a quote from Brian's 'Mt. Vernon & Fairway (fairytale)'.
Has anyone identified the actual Bach piece being played in the background? Can anybody?

[leftybass77]

Well, yes,  Brian got a F in music class for his composition of Surfin! Which I think is a great rock number, BTW. Clearly this proves he wanted to rock out not Bach out. It sounds like we basically agree.

Do I hear Die Konzert für 3 und 4 Cembali in his music? No, it's not there.

Since you studied harmony like I have you'll know that jazz pop harmony is huge in his best arrangements.

Take one of his best vocal arrangements, Your Summer Dream Comes True which is actually a re-working of Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. It's the jazz pop influence that's key. He was just a kid when he did this and it's absolutely brilliant but you wouldn't think it was inspired by Baroque music.

Again, if you're saying a generalized influence exists because he probably had to study a few minuets and Prelude in C Major like most students do then, yes, I think we agree.  But that is so generalized you can attribute a Bach influence to most anyone however the OP referred to specific arrangements and it's not there.

Bach was a master of contrapuntal movement.  If you're saying a faint use of this means he was influenced by Bach well then you can say most everyone was influenced by Bach. That's like saying everyone that uses the harmonic minor scale is heavily influenced by Bach.  But no, Bach was not a big influence on Brian's songs.  The use of harpsichord doesn't mean the structure of his music was influenced by Bach, I mean that's just a superficial aspect.


Perhaps the OP meant that on the odd track or two he gets a generalized feel of Baroque music. That makes more sense.

I know about contrapuntal movement, counterpoint versus counter melody, and all of that stuff. I also know that Brian in high school theory classes studied the same music theory fundamentals I and every other musician who studied traditional theory has studied. Those included the 4-part harmony exercises where you'd block in missing voices and analyze any given chord or chord sequence in a piece of music written in 4-part. It teaches the tools, and the building blocks. Unfortunately if I remember correctly a young Brian turned in a composition as an assignment that was more along the lines of "Surfin" than a Bach-style exercise, and I think he got a poor grade as a result!

But my point is that once you learn the mechanics of that technique, it comes out in your music. Am I saying Bach was a major influence on Brian? No. I'm saying the way Brian worked with voices, chords, and harmonies was something he took a lot from transcribing Four Freshmen records, while even those arrangements and the way they used voice leading as well as counterpoint and specific chord voicings including putting the 3rd or the 5th in the bass voice versus the more obvious and amateur choice of simply singing the root note in the bass was something also seen (and studied) in traditional harmony via Bach. Things like the first and second inversions, various 6ths like the Neopolitan, etc...Did Brian Wilson say "Hey guys, I'm going to end this passage on a Picardy Third!" Hoo boy!"

I doubt it. But the way chords are voiced, shaped, and the way the inner voices transition from one chord to the next in the most basic SATB harmony writing is something most musicians learn by studying Bach, or at least the musical concepts he codified.

I don't like people suggesting "what I'm saying" because most often they're wrong, including this case.

What I said was written in my post, feel free to reed it again before making conclusions that weren't my own.  

I'm saying anyone who *never* listened to or even studied the Bach methods and techniques would *NOT* have written either "Our Prayer" or "Wonderful" as they appeared in their original forms on the Smile sessions. Wonderful is perhaps the only example of what we'd call a Bach style 'counterpoint',  in form , development, and construction.

What many credit as "counterpoint" in Beach Boys vocal parts is actually a combination of counter melodies, not the same thing as counterpoint. But the way Wonderful develops, both in the chords played in the harpsichord, to the melody which enters in contrary motion as sung by Bruce's descending line as Brian's vocal melody ascends, and the way the hit on key chord tones to imply the bigger chord structure in play on any give beat is very much like any Bach-style counterpoint composition.

The harpsichord as lead instrument I don't believe was accidental, I believe it was a nod to whatever performances of various Bach pieces Brian may have listened to or heard up to 1966, for which the harpsichord or the organ were the primary instruments for performing Bach's works other than piano. Bach and harpsichord, depending on the piece, are almost synonymous for his counterpoint pieces, at least in many listeners' minds.

I'm not talking in general and suggesting the majority of Brian Wilson compositions or songs were a Bach influence, because that would be silly and incorrect. What I'm saying is by the nature of Western music since the 1700's, the understanding of harmony and chord structure as learned and taught was something Brian as a musician who studied traditional theory in school would have had in his mind as a tool to use any way he wanted, or when necessary, or even to take the basic concepts and apply them as heard through Four Freshmen or Hi-Lo's records from the 50's with more jazzy tensions and 20th century intervals and harmonies.

"Our Prayer" is an example, again someone who isn't familiar with Bach would not have constructed something like that.

And "Wonderful", the way it is structured and the way it develops, shows that Brian at least knew the mechanics of Bach counterpoint well enough to *apply them* to his own music and compose a convincing counterpoint of his own. he didn't learn that from Four Freshmen or Chuck Berry records.

I also own several Arthur Lyman records, and before citing them as a more direct influence on Brian's instrumental "pet sounds", I'd consider listening to Spector from 1962-63, Bacharach-David from 63-64, Esquivel, Martin Denny, Spike Jones, Les Paul and Mary Ford from the late 40's and early 50's, Rosemary Clooney, Nelson Riddle with Nat Cole and Sinatra, Leiber and Stoller's orchestral pop as heard on the Drifters singles, and even something so far-out and seemingly incongruous as "Calcutta" which was a major hit in '61 and has several specific studio-generated sounds and textures that would soon show up on Brian's productions with the Beach Boys almost verbatim.

I never agreed as much with the Tiki-Exotica-Lyman influence, nor did I ever think Eden Ahbez mattered as much in Brian's sphere of influences as some have suggested. I can see a younger Brian tuning into the Ernie Kovacs TV show and watching Kovacs' dancing furniture and office equipment triggering something in Brian as it was all set to Esquivel's space-age music, which was heavy on technology and a new take on arranging and orchestration, or a much younger Brian watching Spike Jones on TV playing everything from teacups to coconuts, but even those might just have been things he heard and stored away more than the direct influences we can actually hear on his recordings.

[leftybass77]

..

[Ray Lawlor]

Bach was a master of contrapuntal movement.  If you're saying a faint use of this means he was influenced by Bach well then you can say most everyone was influenced by Bach. That's like saying everyone that uses the harmonic minor scale is heavily influenced by Bach.  But no, Bach was not a big influence on Brian's songs.  The use of harpsichord doesn't mean the structure of his music was influenced by Bach, I mean that's just a superficial aspect.


Perhaps the OP meant that on the odd track or two he gets a generalized feel of Baroque music. That makes more sense.

I know about contrapuntal movement, counterpoint versus counter melody, and all of that stuff. I also know that Brian in high school theory classes studied the same music theory fundamentals I and every other musician who studied traditional theory has studied. Those included the 4-part harmony exercises where you'd block in missing voices and analyze any given chord or chord sequence in a piece of music written in 4-part. It teaches the tools, and the building blocks. Unfortunately if I remember correctly a young Brian turned in a composition as an assignment that was more along the lines of "Surfin" than a Bach-style exercise, and I think he got a poor grade as a result!

But my point is that once you learn the mechanics of that technique, it comes out in your music. Am I saying Bach was a major influence on Brian? No. I'm saying the way Brian worked with voices, chords, and harmonies was something he took a lot from transcribing Four Freshmen records, while even those arrangements and the way they used voice leading as well as counterpoint and specific chord voicings including putting the 3rd or the 5th in the bass voice versus the more obvious and amateur choice of simply singing the root note in the bass was something also seen (and studied) in traditional harmony via Bach. Things like the first and second inversions, various 6ths like the Neopolitan, etc...Did Brian Wilson say "Hey guys, I'm going to end this passage on a Picardy Third!" Hoo boy!"

I doubt it. But the way chords are voiced, shaped, and the way the inner voices transition from one chord to the next in the most basic SATB harmony writing is something most musicians learn by studying Bach, or at least the musical concepts he codified.

I don't like people suggesting "what I'm saying" because most often they're wrong, including this case.

What I said was written in my post, feel free to reed it again before making conclusions that weren't my own. 

I'm saying anyone who *never* listened to or even studied the Bach methods and techniques would *NOT* have written either "Our Prayer" or "Wonderful" as they appeared in their original forms on the Smile sessions. Wonderful is perhaps the only example of what we'd call a Bach style 'counterpoint',  in form , development, and construction.

What many credit as "counterpoint" in Beach Boys vocal parts is actually a combination of counter melodies, not the same thing as counterpoint. But the way Wonderful develops, both in the chords played in the harpsichord, to the melody which enters in contrary motion as sung by Bruce's descending line as Brian's vocal melody ascends, and the way the hit on key chord tones to imply the bigger chord structure in play on any give beat is very much like any Bach-style counterpoint composition.

The harpsichord as lead instrument I don't believe was accidental, I believe it was a nod to whatever performances of various Bach pieces Brian may have listened to or heard up to 1966, for which the harpsichord or the organ were the primary instruments for performing Bach's works other than piano. Bach and harpsichord, depending on the piece, are almost synonymous for his counterpoint pieces, at least in many listeners' minds.

I'm not talking in general and suggesting the majority of Brian Wilson compositions or songs were a Bach influence, because that would be silly and incorrect. What I'm saying is by the nature of Western music since the 1700's, the understanding of harmony and chord structure as learned and taught was something Brian as a musician who studied traditional theory in school would have had in his mind as a tool to use any way he wanted, or when necessary, or even to take the basic concepts and apply them as heard through Four Freshmen or Hi-Lo's records from the 50's with more jazzy tensions and 20th century intervals and harmonies.

"Our Prayer" is an example, again someone who isn't familiar with Bach would not have constructed something like that.

And "Wonderful", the way it is structured and the way it develops, shows that Brian at least knew the mechanics of Bach counterpoint well enough to *apply them* to his own music and compose a convincing counterpoint of his own. he didn't learn that from Four Freshmen or Chuck Berry records.

I also own several Arthur Lyman records, and before citing them as a more direct influence on Brian's instrumental "pet sounds", I'd consider listening to Spector from 1962-63, Bacharach-David from 63-64, Esquivel, Martin Denny, Spike Jones, Les Paul and Mary Ford from the late 40's and early 50's, Rosemary Clooney, Nelson Riddle with Nat Cole and Sinatra, Leiber and Stoller's orchestral pop as heard on the Drifters singles, and even something so far-out and seemingly incongruous as "Calcutta" which was a major hit in '61 and has several specific studio-generated sounds and textures that would soon show up on Brian's productions with the Beach Boys almost verbatim.

I never agreed as much with the Tiki-Exotica-Lyman influence, nor did I ever think Eden Ahbez mattered as much in Brian's sphere of influences as some have suggested. I can see a younger Brian tuning into the Ernie Kovacs TV show and watching Kovacs' dancing furniture and office equipment triggering something in Brian as it was all set to Esquivel's space-age music, which was heavy on technology and a new take on arranging and orchestration, or a much younger Brian watching Spike Jones on TV playing everything from teacups to coconuts, but even those might just have been things he heard and stored away more than the direct influences we can actually hear on his recordings.

Let me add this.  I cannot imagine that Bach is not an influence on Brian ; for example ; when he first met Melinda , and for at least 10 years after that , he was listening to "Switched On Bach" the way he used to listen to "Be My Baby".  He has talked that album up constantly , at least privately. 

[guitarfool2002]

Well, yes,  Brian got a F in music class for his composition of Surfin! Which I think is a great rock number, BTW. Clearly this proves he wanted to rock out not Bach out. It sounds like we basically agree.

Do I hear Die Konzert für 3 und 4 Cembali in his music? No, it's not there.

Since you studied harmony like I have you'll know that jazz pop harmony is the huge in his best arrangements.

Take one of his best vocal arrangements, Your Summer Dream Comes True which is actually a re-working of Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. It's the jazz pop influence that's key. He was just a kid when he did this and it's absolutely brilliant but you wouldn't think it was inspired by Baroque music.

Again, if you're saying a generalized influence exists because he probably had to study a few minuets and Prelude in C Major like most students do then, yes, I think we agree.  But that is so generalized you can attribute a Bach influence to most anyone however the OP referred to specific arrangements and it's not there.

What isn't there in specific arrangements, I mentioned two specific songs from 1966! Was I unclear?

Did you miss the part in both of my posts where I cited specifically "Our Prayer" and "Wonderful" as two of Brian's Bach-influenced pieces? Our Prayer as an example of a typical Bach chorale-style SATB harmonization, and "Wonderful" as a counterpoint. If one had NEVER heard or studied a Bach counterpoint or chorale, one would not be able to WRITE pieces of music that sound like a counterpoint or chorale in the Bach style.

What am I missing?

If you don't hear a direct Bach influence in those, stylistically and technically, you're just not listening.

This is the kind of stuff that gets ridiculous on this forum sometimes.

Unless saying "it's not there" after someone twice lists two *specific examples* is for something other than having a discussion.