National Basketball Association ('14-'15)

[SMiLE Brian]

That is great to read, the NBA needs more parity outside of the "super" teams like Cleveland and the Warriors. You invest in season tickets?

[the captain]

Well, you know I can't resist the chance to play devil's advocate, so ... these two particular "super" teams? Golden State, while admittedly in a major market, had been pretty much horrendous from the end of the "Run-TMC" teams of the early '90s until the return of Don Nelson and the unexpected run in the late '00s with Baron Davis, Stephen Jackson, Monta Ellis, etc. That was a stretch of something like 15-20 years of mostly mediocrity and occasional horrendousness.

And Cleveland? Not even a major market team, they suffered basically from the time they had those nice late-80s teams of Mark Price, Brad Daugherty, et al (which never could beat the Celts or Bulls) up until they got Lebron. Brief period of relevance and steep decline back into the cellar. There's a reason they got all those high lottery picks with which to take Kyrie Irving, Anthony Bennett (hahahahaha) and Andrew Wiggins (thanks, Cavs!).

But that said, I get your point. I think the NBA is actually well positioned for minor-market teams to have success if they play their cards right. San Antonio is proof of that. And yes, I'd love for the Wolves to join the ranks of the power teams despite being in the 15th or so biggest market in the nation (putting us below the halfway mark of the league, with two LA teams and two NYC teams, not to mention Toronto in Canada).

[Mr. Verlander]

If only you were in the East, Cap'n old boy.

Well, who's gonna be better than you next year? GS, San Antonio, LA Clippers (who I despise, by the way), OKC (unless everyone leaves), Portland, maybe Pelicans. Should be in the hunt for a 6-8 seed, easily. Well, maybe not easily...

I'd want Thibs over D'antoni. D'antoni is ok, but you need to play D, and that's Thibs thing. Or, even go with Walton over D'antoni. I guess I'd pick anyone over D'antoni, and I liked him in Phoenix. Just not anywhere else.

[the captain]

Tough to say before free agency and such, but I'd imagine at least Golden State, San Antonio, OKC, Portland, and Utah will be good in the west. But LAC, Denver, New Orleans, a tweaked Houston, a revamped Dallas ... plenty of possibilities.

I really respect both D'Antoni and Thibs--and both are great as the lead assistants for Team USA's senior national team--but would also prefer Thibs. My fear with him, though, is a history of pushing guys through hard practices, no days off, lots of minutes. The injury history under him in Chicago is noteworthy. Now, might have those guys gotten injured anyway? Maybe, hard to say. Just interesting, is all. Regardless, he's my favorite candidate. I also believe he's the most likely guy to coach here next year.

Thibs actually also has history here. He was an assistant under Bill Musselman in the Wolves' inaugural season. Coach Muss, he was great. (And crazy.)

[the captain]

Poor Mr. Verlander: Deyonta Davis, fresh off his 7.5 ppg and 5.5 rpg freshman season, is headed to the draft and signing with an agent. Eligibility over. Nice recruiting class coming in for the Spartans but this is a HUGE loss.

[SMiLE Brian]

Oh captain, my captain, the Bulls are throwing in the towel with sitting guys....

[Mr. Verlander]

Poor Mr. Verlander: Deyonta Davis, fresh off his 7.5 ppg and 5.5 rpg freshman season, is headed to the draft and signing with an agent. Eligibility over. Nice recruiting class coming in for the Spartans but this is a HUGE loss.

Thanks, Cap. I come here to escape my basketball demons, and what do I get? You, laughing at my misery.

Really, though. Last night it was "Is Josh Jackson coming here?". Which, if most of the stories are correct, he wanted to come here, because he's pretty tight with a couple of those guys who are coming in. However, his mom didn't see it that way. Which is a bummer, but not as bad as Davis leaving. I felt like losing Davis would be much worse than losing Jackson. I understand why he's going, but I'm afraid that he'll be on the bench for awhile. He could've used another year to get bigger. I've seen him projected anywhere from 11 to 20. If he would've stayed, he more than likely would've been 5-10 next year. Having said that, I don't know his economic background. Maybe his family needs money now. From a strictly basketball standpoint, it's a shame.

And you know what else, this is kind of weird (although I'm sure you'll understand): He doesn't feel like one of "us". A Spartan. Like, Zach Randolph, a one and done guy, still doesn't feel that way. I like my guys to stick around so I can develop some sort of feeling toward them. Like Payne, Green, The Flintstones, Denzel. Those guys feel almost like family, you know? If Davis flames out, it'll be too bad for him, but it won't sting like if Denzel doesn't have an NBA career.

[the captain]

Sorry!

I actually do like the Michigan State program a bit: it's among my favorite, say, 10-15 college programs of all time.* And I really, really respect coach Izzo. I don't know if this news necessarily was a part of any narratives there, but he has a decades-old, deep friendship with the late Flip Saunders, who obviously was a Minnesota basketball institution, whether as a Gophers player, local small-college coach, Gophers assistant, Wolves coach, Wolves GM, Wolves coach and GM again, etc. So it's a program that always had a bit of extra importance here.

So yeah, from that perspective, it really does bum me out. Davis was obviously really, really special. I was very impressed by him when we played Michigan State. He has a long way to go, development-wise, but he's got the tools. He's going to be picked in the first round, no question. And hopefully for him it all works out (a la Randolph, whom you mentioned, who had one decent year of college and a slow pro start before clicking).

I definitely know what you mean about guys who stick around longer v not. What's bizarre is, with Minnesota, our three most prominent really early entries were Kris Humphries (one-and-done), Joel Przybilla, and Rick Rickert (both two-year Gophers, though Przybilla quit in January of his sophomore season). The rub? All three are native Minnesotans, from Hopkins, Monticello, and Duluth, respectively. Yet they're not universally lauded Gopher greats. They're guys who bailed after horrible, OK, and OK seasons, respectively. Compare that to hometowners Sam Jacobson and John Thomas, who spent four years here, but even to Bobby Jackson, a North Carolina native who only had two years here as a JuCo, or Quincy Lewis, or Willie Burton, or Voshon Lenard, or any number of other guys. You have to seem to have some skin in the game to be accepted as a true alum. The guys who never unpacked the suitcase? Meh. Whatever. They're just too easy to forget.


*Since you asked, in no particular order, Minnesota, UNLV, DePaul (Meyers, Kennedy eras), Michigan, Michigan State, Indiana, Louisville (Denny Crum era), Fresno State (Tark era), Syracuse, Utah (Majerus era, but coming back), Texas (Penders era), Connecticut, UCLA, Northern Iowa (I spent two years there).

[Mr. Verlander]

Michigan? Bleh!

Those UNLV teams with Johnson, Augmon, Hunt, etc., was the first time that I ever jumped on a bandwagon. I was a freshman in high school, and really starting to get heavy into basketball. Those teams seemed like they would never lose. I had a shirt with a matching hat. I had a Georgetown sweatshirt, too. With a hat. And I didn't even like them, it's just that everyone had that stuff. UNLV though, I loved them. And they lost to Duke, of all people. That was pretty bad.

You know who I always liked was Gene Keady. He was like Jud Heathcote, always upset, kinda like your grumpy uncle that you'd see once in a while (except with a better comb-over).  3 of the coaches that Tom Izzo looks up to the most are Heathcote, Keady and Bobby Knight. Keady has a pretty good coaching tree if I recall; didn't Bruce Weber coach under him? Cuonzo Martin, Matt Painter, Kevin Stallings. I would've liked to see him win a championship.

[the captain]

Heh, should have guessed you wouldn't be particularly happy with Michigan. But I loved the late '80s teams (Rumeal Robinson, Sean Higgins, Glen Rice, Terry Mills, Loy Vaught, etc.) and the Fab Five, of course. (Who, other than Michigan State or white-college fans, didn't?) The "Fab Five II," which was Travis Conlan, Maceo Baston, Maurice Taylor, Jerod Ward, and Willie Mitchell, was interesting to me, but of course was famously mediocre. (Jerod Ward was the consensus #1 player in the country that year...) Then things got boring with their scandal, new coaches, blah blah... I forgot, I also loved LSU! Chris Jackson (later Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf), Stan Roberts, Shaq, Clarence Ceaser, Randy Livingston, Ronnie Henderson, Deuce Ford, Stro Swift, Lester Earl, and on and on. Loved that program, especially under Dale Brown.

I totally agree about Keady. Great coach. In addition to the guys you mention, Steve Lavin is another key one. He (Keady) also was an advisor for the Raptors for a while. Just so good.

Glad you mentioned Keady and Heathcoate, because that actually reminds me how much I loved most all of the B10 coaches of that era. Those two, Haskins, Henson, Knight, Fisher. Soon after, Wisconsin gets a Dick Bennett, Northwestern gets a Kevin O'Neill a few years after that. Just fantastic times, coaching-wise. Slow pace, yeah, but great coaches and great players.

[Mr. Verlander]

What's 'funny' is that the beginning of the whole investigation into the Michigan stuff started on Mateen Cleaves recruiting visit there. If you don't remember, there was a rollover accident that had Mateen, Tractor Traylor, Willie Mitchell, and some other dudes I can't remember. They were out partying, and stopped by Ed Martin's house, who of course was the guy who was giving all of the players money. Traylor ended up breaking his arm or his leg (can't quite remember), and Mitchell ended up leaving for somewhere down south, I think. The Fab Five era went down in flames (to my glee, I admit).

I always felt like, if the Fab Five had a real coach, they would've won. Steve Fisher let those guys run wild, not much discipline. To say he isn't a 'real coach' I guess is a bit rough, maybe if they'd had a coach that would actually tell them 'no' once in a while.

[the captain]

I definitely remember the Cleaves incident.

Mitchell went to UAB, which had fellow Michigan HS star Carlos Williams at the time.

I disagree about the Fab Five though. I thought Rose, Webber, and Howard in particular played really smart ball more often than not; King and Jackson were rougher around the edges early on though and maybe could have been brought along slower. I think Fisher is a good coach, with evidence being how well SDSU has done under him. He really turned them into a legit program.

The impression of a free for all was partly just the swagger, I think.

[Mr. Verlander]

The impression of a free for all was partly just the swagger, I think.

Or my pure, blind hatred.

[Mr. Verlander]

Pistons get the Cavs, first round. I think we can steal a game. SVG is resting up all of the starters tonight against, of all teams, Clevleand.

[the captain]

I wouldn't swear to it, but I'd bet on the Pistons winning at least one game. And while I won't say I envy your position with the Pistons' future (in that the Wolves have a mighty fine future ahead as well, just a bit later starting and thus later coming to fruition), I will say I think that team has great things ahead.

Today it was reported that Wolves owner Glen Taylor has in fact not only begun a coaching search (including current coach S. Mitchell) but with particular emphasis on the Pistons' model of coach-plus-personnel authority because he has been enamored with SVG's work. I'm not opposed to it, but neither do I fully embrace it. Depends on the guy. I think Doc Rivers has been a terrible GM in LA, for example. But it can work.

Speaking of the Wolves, we close out tonight at home (where we're worse than on the road this year ... go figure) against a shell of the New Orleans Pelicans. No Anthony Davis. No Jrue Holiday. No Ryan Anderson. No Tyreke Evans. No Eric Gordon. No Quincy Pondexter. No Norris Cole. No Alexis Ajinca. You could honestly say they are minus their top 7 guys or so, and are basically fielding a D-League team tonight. The players they're going into battle with are Dante Cunningham, Kendrick Perkins, James Ennis, Tim Frazier, Luke Babbitt, Toney Douglas... Yet that's the kind of game that scares me with this team. The Wolves have generally--especially very early and very late in this season--played up to or down to the competition. So I hate saying it, but if we lost this game, I would not be surprised. If we won by 2, 3, 4, I would not be surprised. The blowout that SHOULD happen? I would be surprised. Happy, but surprised.

[the captain]

The blowout that SHOULD happen? I would be surprised. Happy, but surprised.

As of 2nd quarter, shows what I know.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

What a night! Kobe drops 60, Warriors break the record! Damm!

[Mr. Verlander]

I'm glad the Warriors broke the record. A lot of that is because I hated those Bulls teams with Jordan. And, to be honest, it's pretty amazing. No matter if the NBA is 'soft' now, or you want to throw out whatever excuse these grumpy old NBA players say when they bitch about the game today, to be able to win that many games is insane.

Kobe is one of 15 greatest players of all time.  You can't deny that. I never liked him, though. And that was before his whole Colorado fiasco. That just made me like him even less than I did before. He's one of the guys who people say "well yeah, he's an asshole. So was Jordan, though. You have to have some of that to win". No, you don't.

Kobe scored a lot of points, and he took a lot of shots-a LOT of shots.  He wasn't a very good teammate for most of his career. He gave himself his own nickname, which is pathetic. I went through a period where I tried to like him, only because I was so sick of everyone slurping on LeBron that I needed another great player to "like". It didn't last very long.

I always found it very satisfying that when the Pistons won their last championship, it was against that Laker team of Shaq and Kobe. Nobody gave Detroit a chance. And of course, even after they won, it was attributed to "Shaq and Kobe are fighting, so the whole chemistry of the Lakers was off, and Detroit got lucky". I think it was a little more than that.

[the captain]

I wasn't a Kobe fan either. But what a finale! Then the Warriors record and a huge Wolves win. Good final night to the season.

And the Wolves ' search for a new GM and coach begins in earnest. I'm hoping Thibs.

[Mr. Verlander]

George Karl is out in Sacramento. That was a real surprise, huh? Pretty much from the day he was hired, everyone knew it wasn't gonna last. Sacramento is kind of a mess, anyway. The owner seems like one of those guys who wants to interfere with the work the GM is doing, and in this case, I don't think Vlade Divac is a very good GM. And in all likelihood, Cousins is going to leave whenever his contract is up (one more year?), and isn't Rondo's contract up now? Needless to say, they're far gone from being an even decent team.

[the captain]

Yeah, the Karl experiment was doomed before it began. His ESPN co-workers publicly advised him not to take that job. But I suppose the undeniable talent of Cousins has to be tempting for any coach. I truly think that he has been the most gifted big in basketball the past few years. (Towns may have passed him up in that department now, however. And keep in mind, I'm saying gifted, not actually the best.)

The Kings are a clown show of an organization. They've been on the rocks for years, and Vivek Ranadive has been literally a joke since buying the team. They go through about two coaches a year, a GM a year, countless players. It's just awful. I read a rumor that Kevin McHale is high on their list of candidates, and I hope with all my heart he doesn't take that job. I respect him too much to put him through it.

Rondo had signed a 1-year deal, so yes, he's an unrestricted free agent. I have no idea who'd want--or more precisely, pay--him now. He had a good year, numbers-wise, but he needs a certain kind of team and coach to work, both because of his offensive limitations and ... well, weirdness. It's sad because I LOVED him early in his career as they got things rolling in Boston. Great athlete, really brilliant mind for the game. But the past 3, 4 years, he's just seemed horrible to be around (from an outside perspective). Bratty, uncompromising, difficult. The worst traits for point guards. I wouldn't be surprised if he returns to Sacramento because there just aren't that many franchises sufficiently dysfunctional to take him.

Other coaches either canned today or just not necessarily retaining their jobs (because they were interim guys):
 - Randy Wittman, Washington
 - Earl Watson, Phoenix
 - Kurt Rambis, New York
 - Sam Mitchell, Minnesota
 - Tony Brown, Brooklyn

JB Bickerstaff, Houston, joins as soon as the playoffs end. I expect Byron Scott to be fired, too.

[Mr. Verlander]

I forgot about Scotty Brooks. I think Washington's gonna make a run, because they think that Brooks will be able to lure Durant there. Which I don't really think is happening.

[the captain]

I've heard Brooks to Washington as a Washington hope, too. I think it's believable they might hire Brooks, but I'd say about a 0.01% chance they get him this year--I think he'll sign a 1-year deal with OKC and then capitalize on his earning power next year--and then ... not go to Washington. I'd predict OKC, LAL, LAC (if they make major changes) or Golden State, probably in roughly that order. But Washington? He's said himself he likes being away from the distractions of home. Who knows, if my scenario plays out, the world is a different place by then. But I doubt he goes home.

By the way, Brooks is considered a top-3 candidate here, after Thibs and JVG. He also--as do about half the coaches out there--has Wolves ties. We dealt Rick Mahorn (after he refused to report here after being picked in the expansion draft) to Philly for Brooks, and he was a backup PG here for a year or two.

[B.E.]

I've been sporadically following this thread for a year or so as I am a huge NBA fan. My "hometown" team is the Knicks and it was both a blessing and a curse to begin my NBA experience during the '98-'99 season It's been downhill ever since. Jerome James, anybody?

Captain, I read today that Thibs and JVG will be meeting with the Timberwolves in the coming days and I'm curious as to your thoughts on Jeff Van Gundy. Apparently, he was close with Flip and even had the opportunity to coach the Wolves a few years ago. I know you posted recently that you are hoping for Thibs, but do you think JVG could succeed as the head coach of the Wolves? Do you think he'll return to coaching elsewhere?  I've also heard that the Nets are interested in him, but I can't imagine after all these years he'd come back to that situation. Also, as a Knicks fan, I'm curious what you think of Rambis? Obviously, the Wolves lost a lot of games under him (132 out of 164 I believe), but does that preclude him from succeeding in NY? I honestly don't know. Seems like Phil may stick with him next year. I'm not necessarily opposed, if it means Phil is more involved and the coach/GM/president are on the same page.

I'm looking forward to the playoffs, especially the potential Warriors - Spurs matchup...though the east will be interesting. Seeds 3-8 separated by only 4 games, including 4 teams with identical records (48-34). I'm pulling for the Spurs to win it all this year, though defeating the Warriors will be incredibly hard. If the Spurs do win, I imagine Diaw will have played a huge role. I'd start him over Duncan and I'd probably play West more than Duncan, as well. The Warriors are a horrific match up for Duncan, IMO.

[the captain]

Hey, B.E., welcome to the thread (and board, I guess--haven't seen you around and see you're not a frequent poster). Glad to talk ball.

Regarding Thibs and JVG, I think either I'm misunderstanding you or you have one thing confused. JVG was close to Flip, but didn't ever coach the Wolves. Thibs, I am not sure of his relationship to Flip, but he was an assistant coach for the Wolves under our original head coach (who was, coincidentally, Flip's college coach at the U of MN in the '70s), the late Bill Musselman.

As far as my thoughts on JVG, I do think he's going to return to coaching: maybe 80% chance? I know two main reasons he has been out of coaching (according to his words) were a) he didn't want to join just any random (terrible) team, and he wanted to stay out of coaching while his kids were in high school. He said, I think on Zach Lowe's podcast, that his kids had graduated or were graduating this year or something, so on the latter point, he'd be open to it. And on the former? Well, the Wolves are by all accounts a really attractive job opening, so that seems to settle the former point.

After that? I could imagine Washington making a push for JVG, and that's a good enough job to consider. LA Lakers? With their brand, young talent, cap space? If he can handle that landscape, that's not a bad job. Brooklyn could offer great money and great market, but that's a terrible job in the short term because they don't even have picks in coming years thanks to their horrible earlier trades. Phoenix, maybe, or even Houston again.

Rambis... I don't see it. I think he's a good assistant to Phil Jackson. If you want him to be Phil Jackson's head coach, that's the closest thing to being lead assistant, I guess... But he's a disciple. A company man. He's just imitating his boss. So it's the best imitation minus the original charisma or inspiration or genius. (Not to mention minus the talent on the court...) More than anything, Phil should open up his parameters of a system coach. When your only candidates are the fired Fisher, Rambis, and Brian Shaw (unless you squint so that Luke Walton looks like a disciple and then lie to try to convince him NYC is in California somewhere), well, it's not a great crop. Considering all the other coaching talent out there, it's criminal to focus on the system.