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the captain
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« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2014, 03:03:26 PM »

Hey, helping Chicago win ain't my problem!

Honestly I'd take a Wiggins deal or a Thompson deal over any Chicago deal I've heard.
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« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2014, 06:41:18 AM »

Man, that injury to Paul George looked horrendous. Somebody posted it on their Facebook, and it was before I had even heard about it. All the title of the video said was 'Here's hoping Paul George recovers quickly!', and I thought oh, he must've turned an ankle or pulled a hamstring. I didn't realize that he turned the entire bottom half of his leg. Man, that was nasty.
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« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2014, 06:57:21 AM »

I haven't seen it yet, but I read about it first thing this morning. Horrible for USA Basketball, too, as NBA owners are sure to push against their player-investments participating in non-NBA (e.g. international) competition even more than some already do.
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« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2014, 07:29:00 AM »

How would you like to be an Indiana Pacers' fan right now? Losing Lance Stephenson and Paul George in a matter of days?

Yes, it was a freak injury that could've happened anytime, anywhere. It could've happened at home, falling off a ladder while changing a light bulb. But, the owners of professional sports franchises have to take a long look at having their "investments" participating in exhibitions. There is too much at stake....in many ways.
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the captain
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« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2014, 08:32:06 AM »

If I were a Pacers' fan, I'd actually have looked at losing Stephenson as addition by subtraction. I'm just not sold on him as a dependable major part of a winning team. Talented, for sure, but by many accounts, pretty selfish and immature. His game went down the toilet (relatively speaking) once he wasn't named an All-Star. I also heard stories (and saw with my own eyes) some stat-hogging, like trying to beat out his own teammates for rebounds, passing for the assist but not necessarily the pass that leads to the pass that's the assist, etc. That's disheartening. So losing Stephenson, Turner, and Bynum, I see as a net gain.

However, losing George. It's just awful. While another good ball-handling, creative guard would have helped them, I thought the Pacers were looking good to rank again among the top few seeds in the East. Now it would take a near miracle: Hibbert has to return to form; they need a great performance out of Hill; and somebody has to step up as a wing.

SJS, regarding stars in international play, I definitely understand the risk. But on the other hand, America both loses interest in, and then chastises the participants of, international ball when we don't send our stars. Let's remember the late 80s, when interest was so low we couldn't even get our top college stars on a consistent basis--and we lost games. That was what led to the whole "Dream Team" concept in the first place. (That and a sense of fairness, in that every other country was sending pros while we were sending college kids.) I truly believe if we reverted to sending college kids, or maybe even our non-NBA pros (D-Leaguers, Americans playing abroad) as we did in the '89 (?) World Championships--the lockout season, whenever that was--the Americans would be soundly and regularly beaten. The game has grown abroad to the extent that we'd be beaten, and beaten badly.
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« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2014, 09:10:34 AM »

International play is unique, and I understand the patriotic aspect. I wasn't necessarily singling it out, but, yeah, I do include it "exhibition" events. I was mostly thinking about the NBA All-Star game, the NFL Pro Bowl, the NHL All-Star game, and, hell, guys could get hurt in the MLB Home Run Derby!

Of course there are provisions and limitations in all professional contracts such as maybe not being able to ride a motorcycle, or a jet ski, and not being able to play in pick-up basketball games and the like. But, man, if I was employing a player for millions and millions of dollars, and the financial (and other) success of the franchise depended on that player, I would be very concerned - holding my breath! - when my guy participated in these exhibitions. I can't name a lot of instances when a player went down, but I'm sure a list could be complied. I'm really aging myself but Ray Fosse comes to mind. Embarrassed Was it Mark Cuban who tried to keep one of his players from playing in the Olympics a couple of years ago? I wonder how many other owners secretly agreed with him?
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the captain
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« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2014, 09:19:17 AM »

I brought up international play because last night's injury was a Team USA event in preparation for the Worlds.

Mark Cuban has been one of the more vocal opponents of letting his team's players play internationally. The Spurs recently showed concern about Manu Ginobili--who indeed ended up not being cleared (not sure by whom)--to play for Argentina in the Worlds. Quite a few owners, GMs, and coaches have spoken of the challenges of letting guys play. It is understandable, especially since the game has become such a huge moneymaker in the past 30 years or so.

Conversely, this is the first really serious injury I can recall happening during Team USA preparation or competition. I think in '92, John Stockton had a leg injury as well, but I can't recall is being anywhere near this serious--I'm sure he didn't miss regular-season time from it. There have been anecdotal observations about guys getting hurt the year after their international competition, but I have also seen a more formal, statistical study that showed that is an aberration, and the rates of injury are actually roughly the same as for those who don't play.

There is another side for owners to consider, though, as well: letting guys play internationally builds their brands around the world. Players gain exposure, and their teams benefit from it as well.

I think your mentions of the league-sponsored all-star type events are a little different in that those are organized by the leagues. It's the leagues themselves that insist on such things, as a way to rake in more cash. I'd think it's non-league exhibitions (or other competition) that owners really worry about: pro-am leagues, for example. And yet guys have always played in the offseasons, be it totally recreationally, in workout settings, or in organized competition. It's a tough thing, because you need to play to stay sharp and to improve, and the reality is that people get hurt sometimes while playing or preparing to play. I think it's just a fact of athletics.
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« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2014, 01:47:10 PM »

He's done for the season, which means Indiana is done.
Chicago and Cleveland (if they land Love, which I suppose is more of a 'when', than an 'if') are the top 2 easily, followed by Miami. I find Miami intriguing, just because it's going to be interesting if Wade is going to bounce back and be 'The Man' one more time, or if Bosh can still be the guy he was in Toronto. How's Deng gonna fit in? What's Haslem got left? He's been around forever; he played on the Florida team that my MSU Spartans beat in the National Championship game in 2000 (of which Mike Miller was also a part of).

I don't know what's going on with Greg Monroe. He really doesn't want to play with Josh Smith apparently, but it also looks like he thinks he's worth more than what everyone else does.
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the captain
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« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2014, 01:55:57 PM »

I think Miami is in trouble this season. They're a playoff team--they are in the East, after all!--but not a title contender.

The good:
Chris Bosh is an NBA star. The way the team played in recent years didn't feature him, but a team can feature him and get good results. He's a 20-and-10 guy if you want him to be. Further, he is an impressive guy, intelligent by all accounts and I believe more likely to be a good leader now than he was in Toronto as a younger man.

Luol Deng is a versatile and very good NBA player. He is a borderline all-star, the kind of guy who may or may not make it any given year depending on what else is going on. He shoots, he defends, he's a locker-room guy.

Josh McRoberts is a really versatile player, and a facilitator. He is going to help get things done: good, bouncy athlete; really good passer; decent shooter.

The bad:
Most everything else, actually. I worry about Wade, a true warrior and all-time great whose body seems to be breaking down. Year after year, bunches of games missed and others ineffective. There are no fountains of youth, and the best aspect of his game was his recklessness. He never developed a dependable jumpshot; without that, he's not going to age gracefully.

Resigning Chris Andersen and Udonis Haslem may have showed loyalty but it strikes me as a bad idea basketball-wise. Again, both are aging, and in the case of Andersen, you're talking about a guy whose game is solely athleticism.  Danny Granger is another guy who, while not as old, is trying to come back from years of injuries. Shabazz Napier was just awful this summer, though obviously these things can take time.

To me, this team seems like it was built for the return of Lebron, which is ironic since several of the guys weren't signed until after Lebron was gone.
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« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2014, 07:11:46 AM »

In the St. Paul Pioneer Press, Wolves owner Glen Taylor finally acknowledged the obvious: Love will most likely be traded "August 23 or 24," which not-so-coincidentally is when the 30-day moratorium caused by the Cavs signing Wiggins ends.

Quote
The Timberwolves say now that they expect to trade disgruntled all-star Kevin Love and that a deal is expected Aug. 23 or Aug. 24.

"I'm saying it's most likely because Kevin has made it pretty clear that that's what he wants to do," Wolves owner Glen Taylor told the Pioneer Press.

http://www.twincities.com/timberwolves/ci_26265657/charley-walters-timberwolves-likely-trade-kevin-love-by
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« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2014, 07:36:00 AM »

There is a headline on my computer homepage:

NBA Team Store Discontinues Andrew Wiggins Cavaliers Jerseys Online

Gee, Andrew, we hardly knew ya...Shocked LOL
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the captain
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« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2014, 08:08:13 AM »

Now it comes down to what, specifically, ends up being the trade (beyond the obvious core deal of Love to Cleveland and Wiggins to Minnesota).

My best guess is one of two options:

2-way trade:
Cleveland receives Kevin Love

Minnesota receives Andrew Wiggins, Anthony Bennett, salary cap filler (the guys just traded for: John Lucas III, Erik Murphy, and Malcolm Thomas, who will all be waived immediately), a 1st rounder, and some 2nd rounders.


3-way trade:
Cleveland receives Kevin Love and maybe some nonguaranteed contract player or future 2nd.

Minnesota receives Andrew Wiggins, Thaddeus Young (from Philly), Anthony Bennett, and some 2nd rounders.

Philadelphia receives a first-rounder (from Cleveland) and Kevin Martin.
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« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2014, 12:45:02 PM »

There is a headline on my computer homepage:

NBA Team Store Discontinues Andrew Wiggins Cavaliers Jerseys Online

Gee, Andrew, we hardly knew ya...Shocked LOL

I was just gonna say that I read that, too.  Smiley

Minnesota may actually end up coming ahead in the deal when it's all said and done.
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« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2014, 01:01:41 PM »

Philadelphia receives a first-rounder (from Cleveland) and Kevin Martin.

Just what the 76ers need....another first round draft pick! Evil

No, seriously, as much as the 76ers like Thaddeus Young, not only on the court but he's also a class guy, I think they'd take a No. 1 AND Kevin Martin. Martin is a little old for what Philadelphia is trying to do, but he could fill a role while the young guys grow. I think Kevin Martin might have some ties to Sam Hinkie when he was in Houston which could facilitate things.
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the captain
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« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2014, 01:47:07 PM »

My thinking on that part of the deal was as follows:

 - Philly isn't going to want to extend Young (and thus commit that money).
 - Martin, while more expensive in guaranteed fashion, is at least a known contract: 3 years, about $21 million. While they would rather not include that kind of vet in their longer-term plans, I think he can a) give them DESPERATELY NEEDED help scoring from the wing spots while b) remaining some kind of trade asset in a couple years to a contender, once his contract is expiring.
 - To "do the favor" of taking Martin, they'd want (and get) the first rounder as cost of doing business.

I have to say, I like a Minnesota team of Rubio / Wiggins / Brewer / Young / Pekovic, with a bench of newly signed Mo Williams, Gorgui Dieng, Chase Budinger, Zach LaVine, Shabazz Muhammad, Alexey Shved (though rumors are he's likely to be moved by the season), and Glenn Robinson III.

And I love Philly's roster, too ... in two years! Because then it could be MCW / some wing / Dario Saric, Nerlens Noel, and Joel Embiid.
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« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2014, 02:00:02 PM »

My thinking on that part of the deal was as follows:

 - Philly isn't going to want to extend Young (and thus commit that money).
 - Martin, while more expensive in guaranteed fashion, is at least a known contract: 3 years, about $21 million. While they would rather not include that kind of vet in their longer-term plans, I think he can a) give them DESPERATELY NEEDED help scoring from the wing spots while b) remaining some kind of trade asset in a couple years to a contender, once his contract is expiring.
 - To "do the favor" of taking Martin, they'd want (and get) the first rounder as cost of doing business.

I have to say, I like a Minnesota team of Rubio / Wiggins / Brewer / Young / Pekovic, with a bench of newly signed Mo Williams, Gorgui Dieng, Chase Budinger, Zach LaVine, Shabazz Muhammad, Alexey Shved (though rumors are he's likely to be moved by the season), and Glenn Robinson III.

And I love Philly's roster, too ... in two years! Because then it could be MCW / some wing / Dario Saric, Nerlens Noel, and Joel Embiid.

I agree with all your points. The 76ers might not win very many games this year, but they will be interesting to follow the next couple of years. I listen to a lot of Philly sports talk radio, and the feeling on Sam Hinkie is divided. People either love what he is doing and support his strategies, or they hate what he is doing and think it's/he's going to be a disaster! So far I like almost every move he's made.
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« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2014, 02:07:26 PM »

It definitely takes a big-picture view and some patience to get on board. The key will be, when he seemingly has what it takes to make "the big move" (which includes spending), will he do it? Because that is the difference between the "Houston approach" that he seems to be following and the "Clippers approach" that it could turn into if he just keeps swapping for younger (rookie scale) guys and future picks. Houston was on that same path, but then when the time came to spend on Harden and Howard, they did it. The Clippers--I'm talking 80s, early 90s--endlessly sucked, drafted fantastic talent, and then watched that talent leave at the earliest opportunity!

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« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2014, 06:33:11 PM »

Is the Love trade already done? Philly.com quotes ESPN's Brian Windhorst as saying that there is a handshake agreement already in place. Most interestingly, it has Anthony Bennett as part of the deal, but going to Philly (for Thaddeus Young), not to Minnesota. Very interested to see the eventual details.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/sixers/Former-number-one-pick-Anthony-Bennett-could-be-Philadelphia-bound-.html
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« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2014, 10:37:10 AM »

I've been streaming sports radio 94 WIP in Philadelphia, and they are only saying that it's rumored. If it was a done deal, believe me, WIP would report it. They have a lot of sources. However, they ARE SAYING that what might be keeping things quiet and hush-hush is the 30-day rookie rule. Once Cleveland signed Wiggins to his rookie contract, the rules are imperative that NOTHING can be said or done for 30 days; I think there's about 20 days left.

Hey, if you want to give me a No. 1 draft pick AND Anthony Bennett for Thaddeus Young, I say "Where do I sign?" Again, I love Thad Young, but he ain't worth a No. 1 AND last year's overall No. 1, although admittedly, I haven't seen Bennett play much. Is he a prospect or a bust?
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« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2014, 12:05:58 PM »

Bennett was pretty bad last year, but to be fair he was behind the 8-ball with summer and early season injuries. That said, he's short for PF, prone to pudginess, and lacks the skill and quickness to be a SF so far. Prospect remains the word, but I don't expect him to have the career of a typical #1 overall pick.

I'm curious exactly what we're getting and giving at this point.
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« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2014, 12:19:07 PM »

Wiggins dunking the other day was impressive.
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And production aside, Id so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2014, 02:47:36 PM »

He's a phenomenal athlete. That plus his pretty strong fundamentals on the defensive end make me think he's pretty certain to be at least a high-level, and maybe an elite, defender. Honestly, while his offensive game needs work, it seems like he could step in and be similar to Corey Brewer from Day One, which isn't a bad thing to be. When you consider his potential yet on offense--such as a really nice form on his jumpshot (something Brewer certainly does not have!) and a decent little post game for a wing--it's pretty exciting.
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« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2014, 05:40:29 AM »

One of our notoriously negative columnists wrote a whining piece for today's Star Tribune about the winners and losers in the proposed Love deal. I don't think it's that bad! Then he whines how the team will drop from mediocrity to the cellar.

Maybe I'm nuts but I think we lose very little in the W/L column, but gain plenty in potential improvement. Love didn't want to be here, whined incessantly, feuded with teammates, was petulant toward management, and--good a player as he is--couldn't lead a team to the playoffs. So losing him for a productive starter (Young), an uber-talented prospect (Wiggins), and at least one pick is bad how, exactly?
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« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2014, 06:22:44 AM »

One of our notoriously negative columnists wrote a whining piece for today's Star Tribune about the winners and losers in the proposed Love deal. I don't think it's that bad! Then he whines how the team will drop from mediocrity to the cellar.

Maybe I'm nuts but I think we lose very little in the W/L column, but gain plenty in potential improvement. Love didn't want to be here, whined incessantly, feuded with teammates, was petulant toward management, and--good a player as he is--couldn't lead a team to the playoffs. So losing him for a productive starter (Young), an uber-talented prospect (Wiggins), and at least one pick is bad how, exactly?

Because a lot of people feel that every team needs to have that 'star' to be successful. I don't agree with it, but people love 'big names'. Even columnists, who are supposed to know more than the common fan. A perfect example would be the Pistons who won the title in '04. They had a team of really good players, but none were 'big names', at the time.
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« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2014, 07:03:31 AM »

That's true. Good point. I'll admit it is rare for starless teams to win titles (Pistons notwithstanding), but plenty make the playoffs. And plenty of star-led teams miss the playoffs, as I can attest!

I'd rather see a democratic team that is a lower 4 seed than a star-centered team that misses out perennially. George Karl 'a post-Melo Denver teams or Atlanta are decent examples.
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