VDP talks of SMILE and a lotta other music!

[Dancing Bear]

My asking "how true was it" is a rhetorical question. If you want to take those YouTube interviews at face value, as the correct version of events, you're believing what amounts to a whitewash. Not as egregious as the ABC TV movie, but mining the same kind of thought.

But again, here comes the same old-same old kind of dance that's been going on here for some time. Let's say various band members on camera say (as they did) how much they liked the music, how enthusiastic they were about it when Brian presented it to them: That's the version of events that goes into the record?

Hey, they all liked it! Nothing to see here, all of the reports to the contrary are not to be considered in light of interviews 40+ years after the fact done as promotional tools to sell a new box set where everyone who saw tensions, discussions, and even outright disputes over the music and ideas about the direction of the band related to this music (and how it affected Brian, too) simply got it wrong, or willingly misrepresented what they saw and heard firsthand for some personal agenda.

Again, I ask: Where Vosse and Anderle to name two wrote about these things, were they lying? Or is there something that can be presented to the contrary to dispute what they witnessed? Or was Smile really a case of the scene depicted in that ABC movie? If so, then even that turkey of a film would contradict the notion that they were on board with the Smile music, because the "Mike" character wouldn't have had to step in and "save" the Brian character from all these negative influences and distractions so they could finish Good Vibrations and make hit records again if the music was embraced across the board...or whatever snake oil that movie was selling. 

Of course it was a whitewash. But you can whitewash without lying. Since we're talking about Mike... if he says he liked the music, he isn't lying since we know for sure that he really liked GV, H&V and Wonderful. If he doesn't say that he never argued with Brian with Brian about the direction the group's music was taking he isn't lying. If he doesn't say he loved the lyrics he isn't lying.

There may be multiple truths without a lie involved.

There was also some bullshit offered to us in the last decades by Mrs Wilson, Parks and Love, in a very self-serving way. But they're human and I forgive them. It's that 1% I was talking about.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Any event holds just as much truth and unique perspective from any/all parties involved. Anderle and Vosse's statements are key, but they were not the only people involved. If this were a trial (for the murder of SMILE) would the jury be instructed to ONLY take their testimony into consideration? Of course not! The accused would also either take the stand or be equally represented. And in the case of SMILE it would doubtlessly be a hung jury....

[Peter Reum]

I will let Brian Wilson himself answer guitarfool's Wild Honey question….In a January 2013 interview in Uncut Magazine, Brian shared that "It was always a challenge for me to live up to my name. It was a really big thing for me. People expected me to come up with great orchestral stuff all the time and it became a burden. I was getting tired of it. It still happens, too, but you just learn to live with it.  So the other guys started getting more into the production side of things. Carl [Wilson] really got into that. And we decided to make a rhythm ’n ’blues record. We consciously made a simpler album. It was just a little R’n’B and soul. It certainly wasn’t like a regular Beach Boys record. It was good to go back to the boogie-woogie piano I’d grown up with. Dear old Dad [Murry Wilson] taught me how to play that stuff when I was young. In its way, it’s very nostalgic. And we used the theremin again for 'Wild Honey'. Carl had fun singing on that."

Regarding Friends, the tracks that Brian has said that he recorded in past interviews are Diamond Head, Busy Doin' Nothin', Passing By (he left this unfinished), Friends, Transcendental Meditation, and Be Here In the Morning. Mixdown production was by Carl Wilson. Friends was not issued in Mono in the USA.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I will let Brian Wilson himself answer guitarfool's Wild Honey question….In a January 2013 interview in Uncut Magazine, Brian shared that "It was always a challenge for me to live up to my name. It was a really big thing for me. People expected me to come up with great orchestral stuff all the time and it became a burden. I was getting tired of it. It still happens, too, but you just learn to live with it.  So the other guys started getting more into the production side of things. Carl [Wilson] really got into that. And we decided to make a rhythm ’n ’blues record. We consciously made a simpler album. It was just a little R’n’B and soul. It certainly wasn’t like a regular Beach Boys record. It was good to go back to the boogie-woogie piano I’d grown up with. Dear old Dad [Murry Wilson] taught me how to play that stuff when I was young. In its way, it’s very nostalgic. And we used the theremin again for 'Wild Honey'. Carl had fun singing on that."

Regarding Friends, the tracks that Brian has said that he recorded in past interviews are Diamond Head, Busy Doin' Nothin', Passing By (he left this unfinished), Friends, Transcendental Meditation, and Be Here In the Morning. Mixdown production was by Carl Wilson. Friends was not issued in Mono in the USA.

Not to sound rude, but I don't see how that quote states or even implies that Carl produced Wild Honey.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I will let Brian Wilson himself answer guitarfool's Wild Honey question….In a January 2013 interview in Uncut Magazine, Brian shared that "It was always a challenge for me to live up to my name. It was a really big thing for me. People expected me to come up with great orchestral stuff all the time and it became a burden. I was getting tired of it. It still happens, too, but you just learn to live with it.  So the other guys started getting more into the production side of things. Carl [Wilson] really got into that. And we decided to make a rhythm ’n ’blues record. We consciously made a simpler album. It was just a little R’n’B and soul. It certainly wasn’t like a regular Beach Boys record. It was good to go back to the boogie-woogie piano I’d grown up with. Dear old Dad [Murry Wilson] taught me how to play that stuff when I was young. In its way, it’s very nostalgic. And we used the theremin again for 'Wild Honey'. Carl had fun singing on that."

Regarding Friends, the tracks that Brian has said that he recorded in past interviews are Diamond Head, Busy Doin' Nothin', Passing By (he left this unfinished), Friends, Transcendental Meditation, and Be Here In the Morning. Mixdown production was by Carl Wilson. Friends was not issued in Mono in the USA.

Not to sound rude, but I don't see how that quote states or even implies that Carl produced Wild Honey.

Brian directly implies, no states, that Carl and the other Beach Boys got more involved with the production end of things, at the time of Wild Honey. Especially Carl!

It's not saying CARL PRODUCED WILD HONEY, but when you're the creative leader/producer of a band and you directly state, that beginning with THIS album the other band members, especially this one guy, starting getting more involved in the production side ...... it at least clearly implies that each and every note on the album was not thanks solely to that unique Brian thing.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I will let Brian Wilson himself answer guitarfool's Wild Honey question….In a January 2013 interview in Uncut Magazine, Brian shared that "It was always a challenge for me to live up to my name. It was a really big thing for me. People expected me to come up with great orchestral stuff all the time and it became a burden. I was getting tired of it. It still happens, too, but you just learn to live with it.  So the other guys started getting more into the production side of things. Carl [Wilson] really got into that. And we decided to make a rhythm ’n ’blues record. We consciously made a simpler album. It was just a little R’n’B and soul. It certainly wasn’t like a regular Beach Boys record. It was good to go back to the boogie-woogie piano I’d grown up with. Dear old Dad [Murry Wilson] taught me how to play that stuff when I was young. In its way, it’s very nostalgic. And we used the theremin again for 'Wild Honey'. Carl had fun singing on that."

Regarding Friends, the tracks that Brian has said that he recorded in past interviews are Diamond Head, Busy Doin' Nothin', Passing By (he left this unfinished), Friends, Transcendental Meditation, and Be Here In the Morning. Mixdown production was by Carl Wilson. Friends was not issued in Mono in the USA.

Not to sound rude, but I don't see how that quote states or even implies that Carl produced Wild Honey.

Brian directly implies, no states, that Carl and the other Beach Boys got more involved with the production end of things, at the time of Wild Honey. Especially Carl!

It's not saying CARL PRODUCED WILD HONEY, but when you're the creative leader/producer of a band and you directly state, that beginning with THIS album the other band members, especially this one guy, starting getting more involved in the production side ...... it at least clearly implies that each and every note on the album was not thanks solely to that unique Brian thing.

Oh wow, rereading that...I'm an idiot. Somehow I missed that sentence and only took away the "Carl really got into that" and "Carl had fun singing that" parts. My bad, guys.

[guitarfool2002]

I think it's a difference in terminology, and without wanting to get too much into a back-and-forth, there was a dividing line in 1967 between producing and mixing a record. Those production decisions that got the song to the stage where it would be balanced and mixed, even those pre-production decisions like instrumentation and arrangement...I have to say I think Carl was skilled but it could have been a combination of not being skilled enough yet to fully take the production helm, and Brian was still putting his sonic stamp on those tracks.

I base that a lot on my ears, as well as the output of the band from 67-68-69. I'll say one thing, "I Can Hear Music" sounds terrific, but it's basically Carl's throwing in Brian's sonic tricks and whatnot into that production. Great record. But when I hear Wild Honey, especially Darlin and Aren't You Glad, to name two, they are Brian's productions to my ears even before Carl was there to do the final mixing decisions.Well, Darlin was Brian's all the way, again the BB's just tacked their vocals on the tracks Brian did for Redwood.

I also think it's no accident that many of the tracks that really stand out on WH-Friends-20/20 were either Brian's leftovers, Brian's projects for other artists, or Brian's concepts from the beginning no matter who eventually mixed them down. Compare the sonics of "How She Boogalooed It" to Aren't You Glad for one example, down to the bare basics of how the song was written and arranged, and in '67 Carl just wasn't there yet but was learning by the day...IMO.

The suggestion in question originally was that Carl produced most if not all of Wild Honey, and my ears just don't hear that enough to agree. 

[phirnis]

I get a very distinctive Brian vibe from Friends. Sounds like he was pretty much in charge for this one, encouraging the others to make some contributions and working together with Carl (who I guess was still partly in the process of learning, about to make huge leaps forward after this particular record). Sunflower, on the other hand, doesn't feel half as much like a Brian production. It clearly wasn't.

[Peter Reum]

Brian definitely produced Darlin', I'd Love Just Once to See You (confirmed by him when I raved about it to him), Mama Says, and Let the Wind Blow. The rest were produced by a combination of Carl, Bruce, and Alan.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I don't hear Brian's "sonic stamp" in any defining way on much of Wild Honey at all...... Frankly, the album sounds like total shite (sonically, not material-wise) , and little like anything the band had ever done before, which I might be tempted to prescribe to a newbie like Carl doing much of the work (along with Al, Bruce) Unless we're just gonna round up and count bass, drums, guitar, keys, vocals, other instruments being recorded in any configuration by the Beach Boys as being evidence of Brian's sonic stamp. The dominating "sonic stamp" on that album, to me, is the organ and piano, which wasn't all Brian all the time, right? Carl had obviously learned much by the time of I Can Hear Music. I don't think it's fair to say he was simply aping Brian's sonic tricks because ......... why wouldn't he want the track to sound like it was ......... The Beach Boys? That was his job: to carry on the tradition. It was going to sound like Brian's "sonic tricks" no matter what with Carl Wilson singing lead anyway. This is like saying that Brian has spent his entire career simply aping Phil Spector. Brian didn't write the song or produce the track, so the credit goes to Carl. If Brian was there and making suggestions, then sure: but then wouldn't this sort of thing, in respect, have made the other Beach Boys, The Wrecking Crew, Chuck Britz, and Murray part of this sonic stamp from day one?

[Peter Reum]

Carl was the only Beach Boys member to somewhat consistently play Brian's post '64 studio dates up through Smile with the Wrecking Crew. He began shadowing Brian for learning production as early as late 64. He learned Brian's methods by being at sessions in a similar manner to Brian observing Spector from late '63 onward.

[guitarfool2002]

Pure coincidence...It's 5:48PM as I'm reading the board, listening to WXPN and the show "Many Moods Of Ben Vaughn". His theme today is "whistling songs"...guess what he played?

"Whistle In"   

Tell me anyone, when was the last time you heard Whistle In on an FM radio broadcast? I love radio, XPN is doing as good as I've heard any station in the past 20 years with their programming. Ben Vaughn is an unabashed Beach Boys fan, especially 67-72 era, he plays that overlooked era all the time.  Highly recommend both

[guitarfool2002]

I don't hear Brian's "sonic stamp" in any defining way on much of Wild Honey at all...... Frankly, the album sounds like total shite (sonically, not material-wise) , and little like anything the band had ever done before, which I might be tempted to prescribe to a newbie like Carl doing much of the work (along with Al, Bruce) Unless we're just gonna round up and count bass, drums, guitar, keys, vocals, other instruments being recorded in any configuration by the Beach Boys as being evidence of Brian's sonic stamp. The dominating "sonic stamp" on that album, to me, is the organ and piano, which wasn't all Brian all the time, right? Carl had obviously learned much by the time of I Can Hear Music. I don't think it's fair to say he was simply aping Brian's sonic tricks because ......... why wouldn't he want the track to sound like it was ......... The Beach Boys? That was his job: to carry on the tradition. It was going to sound like Brian's "sonic tricks" no matter what with Carl Wilson singing lead anyway. This is like saying that Brian has spent his entire career simply aping Phil Spector. Brian didn't write the song or produce the track, so the credit goes to Carl. If Brian was there and making suggestions, then sure: but then wouldn't this sort of thing, in respect, have made the other Beach Boys, The Wrecking Crew, Chuck Britz, and Murray part of this sonic stamp from day one?

Missed not just the point, but several points. If you don't hear what I describe as Brian's sonic stamp, let's call it the "vibe" of the tracks he produced to simplify the term, I'd suggest listening to the differences. Some people have and do, to the point of teaching college-level classes on the way Brian made records.

The Brian legacy and reputation some don't want to see magnified is, in fact, deserved, and the reasons why can mostly be found on the Capitol label from the 60's. Orange swirl for 45's, rainbow and black for albums.  

Next point.

Carl was basically serving an apprenticeship and learning on the job under his brother's mentorship in the studio. I'll chalk some of this up to a misunderstanding of the term "producer" and producing a record as it was defined in the 60's. And even by the late 60's, that definition changed. Subject for another discussion.

What do you think that Smile-era track "Tune X" was for Carl? Plans were in the works to allow band members to bring in artists and produce them for Brother in '67, just as Apple Records tried to become in 1968. Did Carl ever produce a record before Tune X? Did Carl even write, arrange, or do anything but perform on a Beach Boys record or song before 1967? Tune X wasn't even a record, necessarily, I always saw that as Carl's entry into the producer's chair in the studio, call it "on the job training" and call the session and resulting track an experiment. He had been observing Brian, Brian had been showing him the ropes so to speak, now when he was ready to try out a full session on his own, he got "Tune X".

Seriously, is it any accident that Carl's first production sounds exactly like a Smile track like his brother Brian had been cutting over the previous months? Again, where am I going wrong to the point where that's being argued?

If you learn how to make violins under an apprenticeship with a master violin craftsman, what do you think your first attempt at making a violin will look like? Could it be that you're going to apply what you've been learning and observing from your mentor, and copying certain elements and styles of work when you do get your chance to try it on your own?

Now, tell me again how I'm so f***ed up on thinking Brian has a sonic stamp or trademark that can be identified in his productions when he was involved. And tell me again how the notion of Carl as an inexperienced producer in 1967 and even 1968 who would apply the techniques he had observed and learn from Brian over the previous three or more years in the studio would not come out sounding more like Brian?

Whether it's painful to admit or not, there are thousands if not more professional producers, engineers, musicians, arrangers, etc who recognize and can identify and even analyze Brian's "sound" on his productions.

How and why is this a point of dispute?  

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I don't hear Brian's "sonic stamp" in any defining way on much of Wild Honey at all...... Frankly, the album sounds like total shite (sonically, not material-wise) , and little like anything the band had ever done before, which I might be tempted to prescribe to a newbie like Carl doing much of the work (along with Al, Bruce) Unless we're just gonna round up and count bass, drums, guitar, keys, vocals, other instruments being recorded in any configuration by the Beach Boys as being evidence of Brian's sonic stamp. The dominating "sonic stamp" on that album, to me, is the organ and piano, which wasn't all Brian all the time, right? Carl had obviously learned much by the time of I Can Hear Music. I don't think it's fair to say he was simply aping Brian's sonic tricks because ......... why wouldn't he want the track to sound like it was ......... The Beach Boys? That was his job: to carry on the tradition. It was going to sound like Brian's "sonic tricks" no matter what with Carl Wilson singing lead anyway. This is like saying that Brian has spent his entire career simply aping Phil Spector. Brian didn't write the song or produce the track, so the credit goes to Carl. If Brian was there and making suggestions, then sure: but then wouldn't this sort of thing, in respect, have made the other Beach Boys, The Wrecking Crew, Chuck Britz, and Murray part of this sonic stamp from day one?

Missed not just the point, but several points. If you don't hear what I describe as Brian's sonic stamp, let's call it the "vibe" of the tracks he produced to simplify the term, I'd suggest listening to the differences. Some people have and do, to the point of teaching college-level classes on the way Brian made records.

The Brian legacy and reputation some don't want to see magnified is, in fact, deserved, and the reasons why can mostly be found on the Capitol label from the 60's. Orange swirl for 45's, rainbow and black for albums.  

Next point.

Carl was basically serving an apprenticeship and learning on the job under his brother's mentorship in the studio. I'll chalk some of this up to a misunderstanding of the term "producer" and producing a record as it was defined in the 60's. And even by the late 60's, that definition changed. Subject for another discussion.

What do you think that Smile-era track "Tune X" was for Carl? Plans were in the works to allow band members to bring in artists and produce them for Brother in '67, just as Apple Records tried to become in 1968. Did Carl ever produce a record before Tune X? Did Carl even write, arrange, or do anything but perform on a Beach Boys record or song before 1967? Tune X wasn't even a record, necessarily, I always saw that as Carl's entry into the producer's chair in the studio, call it "on the job training" and call the session and resulting track an experiment. He had been observing Brian, Brian had been showing him the ropes so to speak, now when he was ready to try out a full session on his own, he got "Tune X".

Seriously, is it any accident that Carl's first production sounds exactly like a Smile track like his brother Brian had been cutting over the previous months? Again, where am I going wrong to the point where that's being argued?

If you learn how to make violins under an apprenticeship with a master violin craftsman, what do you think your first attempt at making a violin will look like? Could it be that you're going to apply what you've been learning and observing from your mentor, and copying certain elements and styles of work when you do get your chance to try it on your own?

Now, tell me again how I'm so f***ed up on thinking Brian has a sonic stamp or trademark that can be identified in his productions when he was involved. And tell me again how the notion of Carl as an inexperienced producer in 1967 and even 1968 who would apply the techniques he had observed and learn from Brian over the previous three or more years in the studio would not come out sounding more like Brian?

Whether it's painful to admit or not, there are thousands if not more professional producers, engineers, musicians, arrangers, etc who recognize and can identify and even analyze Brian's "sound" on his productions.

How and why is this a point of dispute?  

OK, well, I guess you can chalk up one producer, arranger, singer, musician, writer, who doesn't exactly dispute your points or miss them, but simply sees it as a bit more shaded. That's all.... Yes, Brian has a "sonic stamp" ..... Problem is, this sonic stamp is too wrapped up in the identity of The Beach Boys to really be an all too identifiable thing somehow removed from the voices and talents of the other Beach Boys or the players on his cuts. My point with Wild Honey is that, aside from maybe Darlin, nothing on the album (not even hardcore Brian tracks like I'd Love Just Once To See You) especially sound like anything he'd done before. This just means that both others had a serious hand in the song construction, arranging, playing, and producing, and that Brian's own "sonic stamp" is more versatile and sneaky than people tend to seem to want to allow it to be. This has always been a disservice to Brian, I feel. People seem to want to bully him and history into conforming to something that, in a large part, does not exist in any clear cut, black & white form. Which is fine, but you can't sit there and state opinions and impressions as solid fact when these supposed solids break down upon inspection. And someone disagreeing with you in part is not necessarily them missing all your points. Humans have the ability to disagree without that necessitating missing points. It's not a matter of not wanting Brian's legacy to not be magnified. What on earth would be the motivation behind that? Some people just don't like seeing it inflated beyond reason until it comes off as nothing but a cage ..... Sure people teach classes on how Brian makes records, but they also teach classes on how Bob Dylan makes records, and Bob Dylan did everything he could to not make records in any way someone would bother trying and teaching, yet they do it anyway. Big deal. I don't understand how everything has to be HOW THE HELL AM I WRONG?? on this board. Like it or not, but we can intellectualize music and how it's made in every which way/direction/spirit possible, and this truth leads to wildly varying impressions, feelings, views, personal experiences with the music.

Now, this is JUST MY OPINION, but as a listener: Brian's "sonic stamp" up until Pet Sounds was to basically take garage-band basic tracks by The Boys and more fleshed out Wrecking Crew bass/drums/guitar/keys tracks and spruce them up with extra instruments and production flourishes ...... Aside from the songwriting (many co-writes) and production flourishes/extra arrangements, these were basically rock n roll tracks with the player's personalities and Beach Boy voices doing much of the work as an end result. No knock in the slightest against Brian. This is awesome stuff. Nothing but oodles of goodness to love ... Then comes Pet Sounds/SMILE ..... if anything: THIS is Brian's clearly identifiable sonic stamp ...... Wild Honey, to me, sounds like we're back to the garage band days with The Boys and with little vocal arranging or extra instrument flourish. It sounds like a band with Brian Wilson as a member. And it sounds clearly like someone else produced the thing. Yeah, it sounds like Brian because he's there, this is The Beach Boys, but it doesn't sound like anything that came before. So Carl did much of the production? Big deal. I wish Brian had done the full deal on it and that it sounded as full and lush as Friends (and album chock full of Brian's sonic stamp) but I love the thing  just the same ........

So, I guess what I REALLY meant is that, sure Brian has a sonic-stamp (that can be dissected, interpreted/recognized in varying ways) but it's not clearly evident in any obvious way on Wild Honey. And it certainly doesn't sound like anyone trying to ape him. To my ears, and maybe mine only, by this time, each Beach Boy (Carl and Dennis especially) was rapidly developing their own identities that were quite removed from much if not most of what had come before. For example: much of the Production work on Surf's Up, CATP, Holland, and to an extent, certain Sunflower cuts don't really smack of Brian much at all. Again, big deal. Brian's still a genius.

[bgas]

oops

[Nicko1234]

Now, tell me again how I'm so f***ed up on thinking Brian has a sonic stamp or trademark that can be identified in his productions when he was involved. And tell me again how the notion of Carl as an inexperienced producer in 1967 and even 1968 who would apply the techniques he had observed and learn from Brian over the previous three or more years in the studio would not come out sounding more like Brian?

Didn`t you name Aren`t You Glad as an example though which Peter Reum then stated wasn`t produced by Brian?

Which surely means that it isn`t quite so simple...

[guitarfool2002]

Now, tell me again how I'm so f***ed up on thinking Brian has a sonic stamp or trademark that can be identified in his productions when he was involved. And tell me again how the notion of Carl as an inexperienced producer in 1967 and even 1968 who would apply the techniques he had observed and learn from Brian over the previous three or more years in the studio would not come out sounding more like Brian?

Didn`t you name Aren`t You Glad as an example though which Peter Reum then stated wasn`t produced by Brian?

Which surely means that it isn`t quite so simple...

Surely nothing. Peter also originally suggested Carl produced most if not the whole thing. That turned out to be not so simple, either, but you probably missed that since you said nothing about it.     I didn't say Carl produced the whole thing, nor did I say Brian produced the whole thing. But who was still the go-to guy in the band for production decisions and issues, not to mention the only Beach Boy in fall 1967 who could write a song besides Bruce who didn't contribute any songs to the band until the next year? Al? Carl? C'mon. However much or little Brian did on an hourly basis in the studio, go ahead and debate that. But don't write Brian or his influence (and stature) as producer of the band out of the story entirely. He handed it off to Carl, he wanted Carl to become more active that way. Is that saying he bailed out entirely and disappeared? Is that saying we should credit the album to Carl's production skills? That's simple, no...it's common sense. No.

Read the Preiss book for some quotes from Jim Lockert who engineered Wild Honey, quotes from Carl, etc. Among the quotes:

Carl is quoted as saying Brian was the one who wanted to move the band into an R&B direction with the album. Sounds like a producer's call, that one, before they even started the actual recording. Remember there was some harsh criticism of the band and the vocal sound they were known for at the time...Brian most likely wanted to toughen up their sound a bit to counter that with R&B. Perhaps? But whose musical call would that have been? Carl? He wasn't writing anything.

Lockert describes the recording process as being close to what he had to do with Smiley Smile. It sounds deceptively simple, that mix, right? And kind of muddy, similar to Smiley? Lockert said WH was done in fragments and pieces, instrumentally and vocally. He says he did the piece-by-piece, section-by-section method of building the tracks from different tapes and takes, like he described on Smiley. That could account for some of the problems in the mix, right? He also described the record making it sound almost like the White Album, where this time each member was bringing some things to the table, ideas, etc. More democratic and open than it had been earlier. That suggests there was that openness vibe happening where the decisions were opened up to the band, and each had ideas. But there was still one guy who was the most skilled at producing a song in the band.

Carl says Brian asked him to get "more involved" in the recording/production of the album, "he was tired" or something like that.

Is that saying Carl produced most if not all of the album? That's already been countered. Is asking Carl to get more involved in the production akin to giving a two-week notice before quitting the job entirely? No. Again, I never made a point that Carl was not involved. My issue was he wasn't as involved as was being suggested.

And thanks for reminding me of "Aren't You Glad"...notice there is a heartbeat rhythm in the drums right when the line "I've got a heart that just won't stop beating for you.". Hmmm...on Don't Talk from Pet Sounds there is a similar heartbeat sound played instrumentally after the line "listen to my heartbeat", that whole thing of Brian using instrumental parts to represent things like heartbeats, or a fire, or water, or railroad spike being hammered in was a musical trip Brian was on at various times in 66-67, and even before using sounds to represent things or ideas.

So much for that stuff about sonic trademarks, right? So if it wasn't Brian himself producing it, and let's say Al or Carl or Bruce were calling the shots on that tune which Brian and Mike wrote (unless that's inaccurate too)...then they were nicking one of Brian's sonic tricks, right?  

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Now, tell me again how I'm so f***ed up on thinking Brian has a sonic stamp or trademark that can be identified in his productions when he was involved. And tell me again how the notion of Carl as an inexperienced producer in 1967 and even 1968 who would apply the techniques he had observed and learn from Brian over the previous three or more years in the studio would not come out sounding more like Brian?

Didn`t you name Aren`t You Glad as an example though which Peter Reum then stated wasn`t produced by Brian?

Which surely means that it isn`t quite so simple...

Surely nothing. Peter also originally suggested Carl produced most if not the whole thing. That turned out to be not so simple, either, but you probably missed that since you said nothing about it.     I didn't say Carl produced the whole thing, nor did I say Brian produced the whole thing. But who was still the go-to guy in the band for production decisions and issues, not to mention the only Beach Boy in fall 1967 who could write a song besides Bruce who didn't contribute any songs to the band until the next year? Al? Carl? C'mon. However much or little Brian did on an hourly basis in the studio, go ahead and debate that. But don't write Brian or his influence (and stature) as producer of the band out of the story entirely. He handed it off to Carl, he wanted Carl to become more active that way. Is that saying he bailed out entirely and disappeared? Is that saying we should credit the album to Carl's production skills? That's simple, no...it's common sense. No.

Read the Preiss book for some quotes from Jim Lockert who engineered Wild Honey, quotes from Carl, etc. Among the quotes:

Carl is quoted as saying Brian was the one who wanted to move the band into an R&B direction with the album. Sounds like a producer's call, that one, before they even started the actual recording. Remember there was some harsh criticism of the band and the vocal sound they were known for at the time...Brian most likely wanted to toughen up their sound a bit to counter that with R&B. Perhaps? But whose musical call would that have been? Carl? He wasn't writing anything.

Lockert describes the recording process as being close to what he had to do with Smiley Smile. It sounds deceptively simple, that mix, right? And kind of muddy, similar to Smiley? Lockert said WH was done in fragments and pieces, instrumentally and vocally. He says he did the piece-by-piece, section-by-section method of building the tracks from different tapes and takes, like he described on Smiley. That could account for some of the problems in the mix, right? He also described the record making it sound almost like the White Album, where this time each member was bringing some things to the table, ideas, etc. More democratic and open than it had been earlier. That suggests there was that openness vibe happening where the decisions were opened up to the band, and each had ideas. But there was still one guy who was the most skilled at producing a song in the band.

Carl says Brian asked him to get "more involved" in the recording/production of the album, "he was tired" or something like that.

Is that saying Carl produced most if not all of the album? That's already been countered. Is asking Carl to get more involved in the production akin to giving a two-week notice before quitting the job entirely? No. Again, I never made a point that Carl was not involved. My issue was he wasn't as involved as was being suggested.

And thanks for reminding me of "Aren't You Glad"...notice there is a heartbeat rhythm in the drums right when the line "I've got a heart that just won't stop beating for you.". Hmmm...on Don't Talk from Pet Sounds there is a similar heartbeat sound played instrumentally after the line "listen to my heartbeat", that whole thing of Brian using instrumental parts to represent things like heartbeats, or a fire, or water, or railroad spike being hammered in was a musical trip Brian was on at various times in 66-67, and even before using sounds to represent things or ideas.

So much for that stuff about sonic trademarks, right? So if it wasn't Brian himself producing it, and let's say Al or Carl or Bruce were calling the shots on that tune which Brian and Mike wrote (unless that's inaccurate too)...then they were nicking one of Brian's sonic tricks, right?  

Aren't You Glad never utters the word "heartbeat" so I hardly think Dennis playing "duh duh"  after "I got a heart" (also played after "I got a love" and also in the instrumental sections) is some Brian trick related to Don't Talk, To claim so with any assurance is just as far reaching as anything else ever cast off on this board. Maybe they nicked the idea from Eddie Floyd's "Knock On Wood" ("bah bah bah") released the previous year. Were The Stones nicking an Eddie Floyd trick by doing the "bah bah" on the snare after Mick asks "Can't you hear me knocking"? ..... Were Men At Work nicking Brian, Eddie Wood, and Stones ideas when their drummer went "bah bah bah" after Colin Hay asks "Who can it be knocking at my door"?

[Nicko1234]

Now, tell me again how I'm so f***ed up on thinking Brian has a sonic stamp or trademark that can be identified in his productions when he was involved. And tell me again how the notion of Carl as an inexperienced producer in 1967 and even 1968 who would apply the techniques he had observed and learn from Brian over the previous three or more years in the studio would not come out sounding more like Brian?

Didn`t you name Aren`t You Glad as an example though which Peter Reum then stated wasn`t produced by Brian?

Which surely means that it isn`t quite so simple...

Surely nothing. Peter also originally suggested Carl produced most if not the whole thing. That turned out to be not so simple, either, but you probably missed that since you said nothing about it.     I didn't say Carl produced the whole thing, nor did I say Brian produced the whole thing. But who was still the go-to guy in the band for production decisions and issues, not to mention the only Beach Boy in fall 1967 who could write a song besides Bruce who didn't contribute any songs to the band until the next year? Al? Carl? C'mon. However much or little Brian did on an hourly basis in the studio, go ahead and debate that. But don't write Brian or his influence (and stature) as producer of the band out of the story entirely. He handed it off to Carl, he wanted Carl to become more active that way. Is that saying he bailed out entirely and disappeared? Is that saying we should credit the album to Carl's production skills? That's simple, no...it's common sense. No.

Read the Preiss book for some quotes from Jim Lockert who engineered Wild Honey, quotes from Carl, etc. Among the quotes:

Carl is quoted as saying Brian was the one who wanted to move the band into an R&B direction with the album. Sounds like a producer's call, that one, before they even started the actual recording. Remember there was some harsh criticism of the band and the vocal sound they were known for at the time...Brian most likely wanted to toughen up their sound a bit to counter that with R&B. Perhaps? But whose musical call would that have been? Carl? He wasn't writing anything.

Lockert describes the recording process as being close to what he had to do with Smiley Smile. It sounds deceptively simple, that mix, right? And kind of muddy, similar to Smiley? Lockert said WH was done in fragments and pieces, instrumentally and vocally. He says he did the piece-by-piece, section-by-section method of building the tracks from different tapes and takes, like he described on Smiley. That could account for some of the problems in the mix, right? He also described the record making it sound almost like the White Album, where this time each member was bringing some things to the table, ideas, etc. More democratic and open than it had been earlier. That suggests there was that openness vibe happening where the decisions were opened up to the band, and each had ideas. But there was still one guy who was the most skilled at producing a song in the band.

Carl says Brian asked him to get "more involved" in the recording/production of the album, "he was tired" or something like that.

Is that saying Carl produced most if not all of the album? That's already been countered. Is asking Carl to get more involved in the production akin to giving a two-week notice before quitting the job entirely? No. Again, I never made a point that Carl was not involved. My issue was he wasn't as involved as was being suggested.

And thanks for reminding me of "Aren't You Glad"...notice there is a heartbeat rhythm in the drums right when the line "I've got a heart that just won't stop beating for you.". Hmmm...on Don't Talk from Pet Sounds there is a similar heartbeat sound played instrumentally after the line "listen to my heartbeat", that whole thing of Brian using instrumental parts to represent things like heartbeats, or a fire, or water, or railroad spike being hammered in was a musical trip Brian was on at various times in 66-67, and even before using sounds to represent things or ideas.

So much for that stuff about sonic trademarks, right? So if it wasn't Brian himself producing it, and let's say Al or Carl or Bruce were calling the shots on that tune which Brian and Mike wrote (unless that's inaccurate too)...then they were nicking one of Brian's sonic tricks, right?  

Calm down sir.

[Jim V.]

Now, tell me again how I'm so f***ed up on thinking Brian has a sonic stamp or trademark that can be identified in his productions when he was involved. And tell me again how the notion of Carl as an inexperienced producer in 1967 and even 1968 who would apply the techniques he had observed and learn from Brian over the previous three or more years in the studio would not come out sounding more like Brian?

Didn`t you name Aren`t You Glad as an example though which Peter Reum then stated wasn`t produced by Brian?

Which surely means that it isn`t quite so simple...

Surely nothing. Peter also originally suggested Carl produced most if not the whole thing. That turned out to be not so simple, either, but you probably missed that since you said nothing about it.     I didn't say Carl produced the whole thing, nor did I say Brian produced the whole thing. But who was still the go-to guy in the band for production decisions and issues, not to mention the only Beach Boy in fall 1967 who could write a song besides Bruce who didn't contribute any songs to the band until the next year? Al? Carl? C'mon. However much or little Brian did on an hourly basis in the studio, go ahead and debate that. But don't write Brian or his influence (and stature) as producer of the band out of the story entirely. He handed it off to Carl, he wanted Carl to become more active that way. Is that saying he bailed out entirely and disappeared? Is that saying we should credit the album to Carl's production skills? That's simple, no...it's common sense. No.

Read the Preiss book for some quotes from Jim Lockert who engineered Wild Honey, quotes from Carl, etc. Among the quotes:

Carl is quoted as saying Brian was the one who wanted to move the band into an R&B direction with the album. Sounds like a producer's call, that one, before they even started the actual recording. Remember there was some harsh criticism of the band and the vocal sound they were known for at the time...Brian most likely wanted to toughen up their sound a bit to counter that with R&B. Perhaps? But whose musical call would that have been? Carl? He wasn't writing anything.

Lockert describes the recording process as being close to what he had to do with Smiley Smile. It sounds deceptively simple, that mix, right? And kind of muddy, similar to Smiley? Lockert said WH was done in fragments and pieces, instrumentally and vocally. He says he did the piece-by-piece, section-by-section method of building the tracks from different tapes and takes, like he described on Smiley. That could account for some of the problems in the mix, right? He also described the record making it sound almost like the White Album, where this time each member was bringing some things to the table, ideas, etc. More democratic and open than it had been earlier. That suggests there was that openness vibe happening where the decisions were opened up to the band, and each had ideas. But there was still one guy who was the most skilled at producing a song in the band.

Carl says Brian asked him to get "more involved" in the recording/production of the album, "he was tired" or something like that.

Is that saying Carl produced most if not all of the album? That's already been countered. Is asking Carl to get more involved in the production akin to giving a two-week notice before quitting the job entirely? No. Again, I never made a point that Carl was not involved. My issue was he wasn't as involved as was being suggested.

And thanks for reminding me of "Aren't You Glad"...notice there is a heartbeat rhythm in the drums right when the line "I've got a heart that just won't stop beating for you.". Hmmm...on Don't Talk from Pet Sounds there is a similar heartbeat sound played instrumentally after the line "listen to my heartbeat", that whole thing of Brian using instrumental parts to represent things like heartbeats, or a fire, or water, or railroad spike being hammered in was a musical trip Brian was on at various times in 66-67, and even before using sounds to represent things or ideas.

So much for that stuff about sonic trademarks, right? So if it wasn't Brian himself producing it, and let's say Al or Carl or Bruce were calling the shots on that tune which Brian and Mike wrote (unless that's inaccurate too)...then they were nicking one of Brian's sonic tricks, right?  

Calm down sir.

Seriously, its posts like Nicko's right here that really get me. You have guitarfool discussing the topic at hand, about Brian and how much he produced Wild Honey and whatnot. And he provides quotes and everything to back up his post. And instead of having something constructive to add, Nicko decides to preemptively devalue guitarfool's post buy telling him to "calm down", as if he's really getting out of hand. Plain stupid.

[Nicko1234]

Seriously, its posts like Nicko's right here that really get me. You have guitarfool discussing the topic at hand, about Brian and how much he produced Wild Honey and whatnot. And he provides quotes and everything to back up his post. And instead of having something constructive to add, Nicko decides to preemptively devalue guitarfool's post buy telling him to "calm down", as if he's really getting out of hand. Plain stupid.

Not trying to devalue anything...

Guitarfool`s theories may be entirely correct for all I know but he responded to one poster`s innocent comments with `Why am I so f***ed up?` and responded to a simple question of `Is it that simple?` which a lot of quotes that show that...well, it isn`t that simple at all is it.

[CenturyDeprived]

And even in 2012, though...those Smile "webisodes" on YouTube where band members are on camera describing Smile as they remembered it. Did people believe that? It was great PR to help sell the box set and sell that communal band spirit in the moment, but how true was it?  

Well, how untrue is it? Mike's been telling his side very consistently for decades. So neither he nor Brian chose to talk about confrontations in 2011. It doesn't make what they did say in the webisodes untrue.
 

I'd hope that nobody would be naive enough to think that the answers Brian and Mike gave weren't planned out (with certain responses made expressly off-limits) well ahead of time. There were probably contracts, stipulations, and rules. It was all in the name of PR, and I'm sure it was also an attempt at hatchet burying. But it was ultimately a whitewash, and I'm sure everyone deep in their hearts on some level knew it.

It should be noted that denial can also make many peoples' interpretations of their "side" remain consistent for decades as well.  Regardless if you think that applies to this situation or not - I think it's safe to say that a given person's consistent responses about a subject over decades' time, doesn't necessarily, by definition, mean squat.

[KittyKat]

And all this had what to do with Van Dyke Parks?

[Bicyclerider]

It's a digression but an interesting one.  Shouldn't the session tapes reveal who was producing the songs?  Who's calling out for another take and making arrangement changes and suggestions?  If it's Brian, then he's the producer.  If it's Carl, then he's the producer.  I know - well I've read - that for. Sunflower Brian produced some of the music tracks and left the vocals to. Carl to produce.  So it could be a mix like that going on for some of the Wild Honey tracks, as well as the. Friends tracks.  The orchestral tracks on Friends - the title track for example - I can't see Carl being able to produce at that point.  But the vocals?  Sure.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Now, tell me again how I'm so f***ed up on thinking Brian has a sonic stamp or trademark that can be identified in his productions when he was involved. And tell me again how the notion of Carl as an inexperienced producer in 1967 and even 1968 who would apply the techniques he had observed and learn from Brian over the previous three or more years in the studio would not come out sounding more like Brian?

Didn`t you name Aren`t You Glad as an example though which Peter Reum then stated wasn`t produced by Brian?

Which surely means that it isn`t quite so simple...

Surely nothing. Peter also originally suggested Carl produced most if not the whole thing. That turned out to be not so simple, either, but you probably missed that since you said nothing about it.     I didn't say Carl produced the whole thing, nor did I say Brian produced the whole thing. But who was still the go-to guy in the band for production decisions and issues, not to mention the only Beach Boy in fall 1967 who could write a song besides Bruce who didn't contribute any songs to the band until the next year? Al? Carl? C'mon. However much or little Brian did on an hourly basis in the studio, go ahead and debate that. But don't write Brian or his influence (and stature) as producer of the band out of the story entirely. He handed it off to Carl, he wanted Carl to become more active that way. Is that saying he bailed out entirely and disappeared? Is that saying we should credit the album to Carl's production skills? That's simple, no...it's common sense. No.

Read the Preiss book for some quotes from Jim Lockert who engineered Wild Honey, quotes from Carl, etc. Among the quotes:

Carl is quoted as saying Brian was the one who wanted to move the band into an R&B direction with the album. Sounds like a producer's call, that one, before they even started the actual recording. Remember there was some harsh criticism of the band and the vocal sound they were known for at the time...Brian most likely wanted to toughen up their sound a bit to counter that with R&B. Perhaps? But whose musical call would that have been? Carl? He wasn't writing anything.

Lockert describes the recording process as being close to what he had to do with Smiley Smile. It sounds deceptively simple, that mix, right? And kind of muddy, similar to Smiley? Lockert said WH was done in fragments and pieces, instrumentally and vocally. He says he did the piece-by-piece, section-by-section method of building the tracks from different tapes and takes, like he described on Smiley. That could account for some of the problems in the mix, right? He also described the record making it sound almost like the White Album, where this time each member was bringing some things to the table, ideas, etc. More democratic and open than it had been earlier. That suggests there was that openness vibe happening where the decisions were opened up to the band, and each had ideas. But there was still one guy who was the most skilled at producing a song in the band.

Carl says Brian asked him to get "more involved" in the recording/production of the album, "he was tired" or something like that.

Is that saying Carl produced most if not all of the album? That's already been countered. Is asking Carl to get more involved in the production akin to giving a two-week notice before quitting the job entirely? No. Again, I never made a point that Carl was not involved. My issue was he wasn't as involved as was being suggested.

And thanks for reminding me of "Aren't You Glad"...notice there is a heartbeat rhythm in the drums right when the line "I've got a heart that just won't stop beating for you.". Hmmm...on Don't Talk from Pet Sounds there is a similar heartbeat sound played instrumentally after the line "listen to my heartbeat", that whole thing of Brian using instrumental parts to represent things like heartbeats, or a fire, or water, or railroad spike being hammered in was a musical trip Brian was on at various times in 66-67, and even before using sounds to represent things or ideas.

So much for that stuff about sonic trademarks, right? So if it wasn't Brian himself producing it, and let's say Al or Carl or Bruce were calling the shots on that tune which Brian and Mike wrote (unless that's inaccurate too)...then they were nicking one of Brian's sonic tricks, right?  

Calm down sir.

Seriously, its posts like Nicko's right here that really get me. You have guitarfool discussing the topic at hand, about Brian and how much he produced Wild Honey and whatnot. And he provides quotes and everything to back up his post. And instead of having something constructive to add, Nicko decides to preemptively devalue guitarfool's post buy telling him to "calm down", as if he's really getting out of hand. Plain stupid.

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.