VDP talks of SMILE and a lotta other music!

[Dancing Bear]

And even in 2012, though...those Smile "webisodes" on YouTube where band members are on camera describing Smile as they remembered it. Did people believe that? It was great PR to help sell the box set and sell that communal band spirit in the moment, but how true was it?  

Well, how untrue is it? Mike's been telling his side very consistently for decades. So neither he nor Brian chose to talk about confrontations in 2011. It doesn't make what they did say in the webisodes untrue.
 

I'd hope that nobody would be naive enough to think that the answers Brian and Mike gave weren't planned out (with certain responses made expressly off-limits) well ahead of time. There were probably contracts, stipulations, and rules. It was all in the name of PR, and I'm sure it was also an attempt at hatchet burying. But it was ultimately a whitewash, and I'm sure everyone deep in their hearts on some level knew it.

It should be noted that denial can also make many peoples' interpretations of their "side" remain consistent for decades as well.  Regardless if you think that applies to this situation or not - I think it's safe to say that a given person's consistent responses about a subject over decades' time, doesn't necessarily, by definition, mean squat.

See my last post, Reply #50.

I'd never say anyone involved with Smile has the absolute truth on his side. But the Smile Box webisodes shouldn't insult anyone, unless someone thinks Mike, Van Dyke, Brian, Banana or Louie should apologize for something that heppened 48 years ago.

[Tricycle Rider]

And even in 2012, though...those Smile "webisodes" on YouTube where band members are on camera describing Smile as they remembered it. Did people believe that? It was great PR to help sell the box set and sell that communal band spirit in the moment, but how true was it?  

Well, how untrue is it? Mike's been telling his side very consistently for decades. So neither he nor Brian chose to talk about confrontations in 2011. It doesn't make what they did say in the webisodes untrue.
 

I'd hope that nobody would be naive enough to think that the answers Brian and Mike gave weren't planned out (with certain responses made expressly off-limits) well ahead of time. There were probably contracts, stipulations, and rules. It was all in the name of PR, and I'm sure it was also an attempt at hatchet burying. But it was ultimately a whitewash, and I'm sure everyone deep in their hearts on some level knew it.

It should be noted that denial can also make many peoples' interpretations of their "side" remain consistent for decades as well.  Regardless if you think that applies to this situation or not - I think it's safe to say that a given person's consistent responses about a subject over decades' time, doesn't necessarily, by definition, mean squat.

See my last post, Reply #50.

I'd never say anyone involved with Smile has the absolute truth on his side. But the Smile Box webisodes shouldn't insult anyone, unless someone thinks Mike, Van Dyke, Brian, Banana or Louie should apologize for something that heppened 48 years ago.

I'm still upset with banana for chewing up the original lyric sheet for "Child Is The Father Of The Man" 

[guitarfool2002]

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

That's crossing the line and I don't appreciate it at all. If you have a problem just say it to me directly and cut the veiled personal insult routine. If you can't do that, or if you have no rational or appropriate way to reply to things that have been written by me or anyone else here, then consider dropping the kind of stuff that you just posted here entirely. If you can't discuss these things even in a heated debate kind of way without going to veiled personal insults against me or anyone else, you'll get called out like you were in other threads by posters other than me when the same stuff went down and you did the same routine.  It's not welcome, it's not funny or cool, and I promise I'm done with it for good this time. And others might be as well, but that's just speculation.

And if you don't like my paper length replies, don't read them. Your call. But don't patronize or insult me for writing what I want to write or how I want to write it. It's an open forum here, and if people have a problem with what I write here or the length or content of my posts, get in touch, let me know, and we'll talk. Or just don't read them. Plenty of words on this board to entertain, plenty of cool photos too.

Your call. Just don't drag me or how I contribute here into it. And try to man up and just come out with it directly if you do have an issue instead of using hit-and-run terms like "term paper length replies".

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

That's crossing the line and I don't appreciate it at all. If you have a problem just say it to me directly and cut the veiled personal insult routine. If you can't do that, or if you have no rational or appropriate way to reply to things that have been written by me or anyone else here, then consider dropping the kind of stuff that you just posted here entirely. If you can't discuss these things even in a heated debate kind of way without going to veiled personal insults against me or anyone else, you'll get called out like you were in other threads by posters other than me when the same stuff went down and you did the same routine.  It's not welcome, it's not funny or cool, and I promise I'm done with it for good this time. And others might be as well, but that's just speculation.

And if you don't like my paper length replies, don't read them. Your call. But don't patronize or insult me for writing what I want to write or how I want to write it. It's an open forum here, and if people have a problem with what I write here or the length or content of my posts, get in touch, let me know, and we'll talk. Or just don't read them. Plenty of words on this board to entertain, plenty of cool photos too.

Your call. Just don't drag me or how I contribute here into it. And try to man up and just come out with it directly if you do have an issue instead of using hit-and-run terms like "term paper length replies".

"Don't patronize"

That is very good advice.... Advice I suggest we both take.

There is a good deal of hypocrisy in what you're saying regarding crossing lines and inciting conflict, just as there is a bit of arrogance regarding what you consider useful postings or rational arguments, etc etc, but I won't go into it. Treat folks like you want to be treated, ya know?

[Jim V.]

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

What the f*** are you talking about?

I agree, that yes, sometimes it IS better a few words are just as effective. However, in this instance it wasn't. He was just trying to paint guitarfool as overemotional and out of hand, or something.

Shoot, I don't even know much about guitarfool but he is isn't posting to post or just disagreeing to disagree. He's trying to add to our understanding of past events like a few other posters here. Wish there were more here.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

What the f*** are you talking about?

I agree, that yes, sometimes it IS better a few words are just as effective. However, in this instance it wasn't. He was just trying to paint guitarfool as overemotional and out of hand, or something.

Shoot, I don't even know much about guitarfool but he is isn't posting to post or just disagreeing to disagree. He's trying to add to our understanding of past events like a few other posters here. Wish there were more here.

Fair enough but when it's OK for Guitarfool to scream in all caps in hideous exasperation that another poster might dare disagree with him, someone might have the nerve to say "calm down"

and I really can't think of a single other poster here, OSD included (in his moments) who doesn't, even from time to time in the least, add positively to our understanding of the events we love to endlessly discuss.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

That's crossing the line and I don't appreciate it at all. If you have a problem just say it to me directly and cut the veiled personal insult routine. If you can't do that, or if you have no rational or appropriate way to reply to things that have been written by me or anyone else here, then consider dropping the kind of stuff that you just posted here entirely. If you can't discuss these things even in a heated debate kind of way without going to veiled personal insults against me or anyone else, you'll get called out like you were in other threads by posters other than me when the same stuff went down and you did the same routine.  It's not welcome, it's not funny or cool, and I promise I'm done with it for good this time. And others might be as well, but that's just speculation.

And if you don't like my paper length replies, don't read them. Your call. But don't patronize or insult me for writing what I want to write or how I want to write it. It's an open forum here, and if people have a problem with what I write here or the length or content of my posts, get in touch, let me know, and we'll talk. Or just don't read them. Plenty of words on this board to entertain, plenty of cool photos too.

Your call. Just don't drag me or how I contribute here into it. And try to man up and just come out with it directly if you do have an issue instead of using hit-and-run terms like "term paper length replies".

Guitarfool, you're one of the best posters on this board as far as I can see. I applaud you for sticking up for yourself here--you've done nothing but intelligently argue your position which is what this board should be for.

I say just ignore Pinder. He has a tendency to drag arguments on unnecessarily to the point where they become absolutely ridiculous. One of the reasons I stopped coming here for a few months was because he kept dragging me into this stupid fight about Mike Love. I wasn't being unfair or going out of my way to diss the man, but god forbid anyone have a different opinion. I wouldnt have even minded that so much if he hadn't joined in on the public taunting when I tried bumping a few older SMiLE threads--if we disagree on a topic, that's no big deal, but to join the crowd and put me down personally as a result was pretty petty I thought. I've been accused by others of not accepting criticism, so I think that last paragraph may also be a barb at me too. Which, if it is, I think it's really unfair and uncalled for. Basically what I'm saying is, he's not worth your time to argue with. Even when you best him, or point out how unreasonable he's acting, he plays the victim and/or acts like you're also in the wrong to the same extent he is. It's truly maddening.

Sorry, Pinder, but that's just my personal experience.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

That's crossing the line and I don't appreciate it at all. If you have a problem just say it to me directly and cut the veiled personal insult routine. If you can't do that, or if you have no rational or appropriate way to reply to things that have been written by me or anyone else here, then consider dropping the kind of stuff that you just posted here entirely. If you can't discuss these things even in a heated debate kind of way without going to veiled personal insults against me or anyone else, you'll get called out like you were in other threads by posters other than me when the same stuff went down and you did the same routine.  It's not welcome, it's not funny or cool, and I promise I'm done with it for good this time. And others might be as well, but that's just speculation.

And if you don't like my paper length replies, don't read them. Your call. But don't patronize or insult me for writing what I want to write or how I want to write it. It's an open forum here, and if people have a problem with what I write here or the length or content of my posts, get in touch, let me know, and we'll talk. Or just don't read them. Plenty of words on this board to entertain, plenty of cool photos too.

Your call. Just don't drag me or how I contribute here into it. And try to man up and just come out with it directly if you do have an issue instead of using hit-and-run terms like "term paper length replies".

Guitarfool, you're one of the best posters on this board as far as I can see. I applaud you for sticking up for yourself here--you've done nothing but intelligently argue your position which is what this board should be for.

I say just ignore Pinder. He has a tendency to drag arguments on unnecessarily to the point where they become absolutely ridiculous. One of the reasons I stopped coming here for a few months was because he kept dragging me into this stupid fight about Mike Love. I wasn't being unfair or going out of my way to diss the man, but god forbid anyone have a different opinion. I wouldnt have even minded that so much if he hadn't joined in on the public taunting when I tried bumping a few older SMiLE threads--if we disagree on a topic, that's no big deal, but to join the crowd and put me down personally as a result was pretty petty I thought. I've been accused by others of not accepting criticism, so I think that last paragraph may also be a barb at me too. Which, if it is, I think it's really unfair and uncalled for. Basically what I'm saying is, he's not worth your time to argue with. Even when you best him, or point out how unreasonable he's acting, he plays the victim and/or acts like you're also in the wrong to the same extent he is. It's truly maddening.

Sorry, Pinder, but that's just my personal experience.

No offense taken, and I am fully aware of how I can come across, and I do try and stave that behavior, which is partly why I take frequent lengthy breaks from his board (I just set myself up for a wealth of barbs here) .... But I've been called out and insulted just as much as you're accusing me of doing, only it seems to be A-OK when it's certain posters doing the calling-out and insulting.... All that said, we ARE discussing things that are highly emotionally charged topics for not just some of us. This needs to be understood. The condescending tone that creeps in is the thing that always ends up getting me going, and I'll stand behind my opinion of it not always being cool.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

That's crossing the line and I don't appreciate it at all. If you have a problem just say it to me directly and cut the veiled personal insult routine. If you can't do that, or if you have no rational or appropriate way to reply to things that have been written by me or anyone else here, then consider dropping the kind of stuff that you just posted here entirely. If you can't discuss these things even in a heated debate kind of way without going to veiled personal insults against me or anyone else, you'll get called out like you were in other threads by posters other than me when the same stuff went down and you did the same routine.  It's not welcome, it's not funny or cool, and I promise I'm done with it for good this time. And others might be as well, but that's just speculation.

And if you don't like my paper length replies, don't read them. Your call. But don't patronize or insult me for writing what I want to write or how I want to write it. It's an open forum here, and if people have a problem with what I write here or the length or content of my posts, get in touch, let me know, and we'll talk. Or just don't read them. Plenty of words on this board to entertain, plenty of cool photos too.

Your call. Just don't drag me or how I contribute here into it. And try to man up and just come out with it directly if you do have an issue instead of using hit-and-run terms like "term paper length replies".

Guitarfool, you're one of the best posters on this board as far as I can see. I applaud you for sticking up for yourself here--you've done nothing but intelligently argue your position which is what this board should be for.

I say just ignore Pinder. He has a tendency to drag arguments on unnecessarily to the point where they become absolutely ridiculous. One of the reasons I stopped coming here for a few months was because he kept dragging me into this stupid fight about Mike Love. I wasn't being unfair or going out of my way to diss the man, but god forbid anyone have a different opinion. I wouldnt have even minded that so much if he hadn't joined in on the public taunting when I tried bumping a few older SMiLE threads--if we disagree on a topic, that's no big deal, but to join the crowd and put me down personally as a result was pretty petty I thought. I've been accused by others of not accepting criticism, so I think that last paragraph may also be a barb at me too. Which, if it is, I think it's really unfair and uncalled for. Basically what I'm saying is, he's not worth your time to argue with. Even when you best him, or point out how unreasonable he's acting, he plays the victim and/or acts like you're also in the wrong to the same extent he is. It's truly maddening.

Sorry, Pinder, but that's just my personal experience.

No offense taken, and I am fully aware of how I can come across, and I do try and stave that behavior, which is partly why I take frequent lengthy breaks from his board (I just set myself up for a wealth of barbs here) .... But I've been called out and insulted just as much as you're accusing me of doing, only it seems to be A-OK when it's certain posters doing the calling-out and insulting.... All that said, we ARE discussing things that are highly emotionally charged topics for not just some of us. This needs to be understood. The condescending tone that creeps in is the thing that always ends up getting me going, and I'll stand behind my opinion of it not always being cool.

I debate with great veracity, but I hope I haven't insulted anyone on a personal level. If I do, anyone can feel free to call me out on it, since I obviously don't like to be on the receiving end myself. I wasn't as polite to sweetdudejim as I couldve been on another thread, and it actually benefited both of us I think, when he called me out on it.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

That's crossing the line and I don't appreciate it at all. If you have a problem just say it to me directly and cut the veiled personal insult routine. If you can't do that, or if you have no rational or appropriate way to reply to things that have been written by me or anyone else here, then consider dropping the kind of stuff that you just posted here entirely. If you can't discuss these things even in a heated debate kind of way without going to veiled personal insults against me or anyone else, you'll get called out like you were in other threads by posters other than me when the same stuff went down and you did the same routine.  It's not welcome, it's not funny or cool, and I promise I'm done with it for good this time. And others might be as well, but that's just speculation.

And if you don't like my paper length replies, don't read them. Your call. But don't patronize or insult me for writing what I want to write or how I want to write it. It's an open forum here, and if people have a problem with what I write here or the length or content of my posts, get in touch, let me know, and we'll talk. Or just don't read them. Plenty of words on this board to entertain, plenty of cool photos too.

Your call. Just don't drag me or how I contribute here into it. And try to man up and just come out with it directly if you do have an issue instead of using hit-and-run terms like "term paper length replies".

Guitarfool, you're one of the best posters on this board as far as I can see. I applaud you for sticking up for yourself here--you've done nothing but intelligently argue your position which is what this board should be for.

I say just ignore Pinder. He has a tendency to drag arguments on unnecessarily to the point where they become absolutely ridiculous. One of the reasons I stopped coming here for a few months was because he kept dragging me into this stupid fight about Mike Love. I wasn't being unfair or going out of my way to diss the man, but god forbid anyone have a different opinion. I wouldnt have even minded that so much if he hadn't joined in on the public taunting when I tried bumping a few older SMiLE threads--if we disagree on a topic, that's no big deal, but to join the crowd and put me down personally as a result was pretty petty I thought. I've been accused by others of not accepting criticism, so I think that last paragraph may also be a barb at me too. Which, if it is, I think it's really unfair and uncalled for. Basically what I'm saying is, he's not worth your time to argue with. Even when you best him, or point out how unreasonable he's acting, he plays the victim and/or acts like you're also in the wrong to the same extent he is. It's truly maddening.

Sorry, Pinder, but that's just my personal experience.

No offense taken, and I am fully aware of how I can come across, and I do try and stave that behavior, which is partly why I take frequent lengthy breaks from his board (I just set myself up for a wealth of barbs here) .... But I've been called out and insulted just as much as you're accusing me of doing, only it seems to be A-OK when it's certain posters doing the calling-out and insulting.... All that said, we ARE discussing things that are highly emotionally charged topics for not just some of us. This needs to be understood. The condescending tone that creeps in is the thing that always ends up getting me going, and I'll stand behind my opinion of it not always being cool.

I debate with great veracity, but I hope I haven't insulted anyone on a personal level. If I do, anyone can feel free to call me out on it, since I obviously don't like to be on the receiving end myself. I wasn't as polite to sweetdudejim as I couldve been on another thread, and it actually benefited both of us I think, when he called me out on it.

I don't think myself or anyone really has crossed the line into simply untenable behavior here on this board (well, aside from some choice personal messages I've received) and different people debate with great veracity in different ways/styles .... What on occasion bothers me with certain lengthy posts/replies is that a feeling comes across that based upon the time and effort taken to compose such posts/replies, this automatically makes disagreement especially prone to being taken as insult, irregardless of the content of said posts/replies or disagreement. I think we've seen ample evidence of this, though it is thankfully rare. But this occasional attitude of this sort of "what business do you have disagreeing with me?" type of thing, usually followed up with "polite" insults at the quality of the disagreer's contributions to the discussion is something I can't help but take issue with. Sometimes people disagree not just to put forth an opposing opinion, but also to learn.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

That's crossing the line and I don't appreciate it at all. If you have a problem just say it to me directly and cut the veiled personal insult routine. If you can't do that, or if you have no rational or appropriate way to reply to things that have been written by me or anyone else here, then consider dropping the kind of stuff that you just posted here entirely. If you can't discuss these things even in a heated debate kind of way without going to veiled personal insults against me or anyone else, you'll get called out like you were in other threads by posters other than me when the same stuff went down and you did the same routine.  It's not welcome, it's not funny or cool, and I promise I'm done with it for good this time. And others might be as well, but that's just speculation.

And if you don't like my paper length replies, don't read them. Your call. But don't patronize or insult me for writing what I want to write or how I want to write it. It's an open forum here, and if people have a problem with what I write here or the length or content of my posts, get in touch, let me know, and we'll talk. Or just don't read them. Plenty of words on this board to entertain, plenty of cool photos too.

Your call. Just don't drag me or how I contribute here into it. And try to man up and just come out with it directly if you do have an issue instead of using hit-and-run terms like "term paper length replies".

Guitarfool, you're one of the best posters on this board as far as I can see. I applaud you for sticking up for yourself here--you've done nothing but intelligently argue your position which is what this board should be for.

I say just ignore Pinder. He has a tendency to drag arguments on unnecessarily to the point where they become absolutely ridiculous. One of the reasons I stopped coming here for a few months was because he kept dragging me into this stupid fight about Mike Love. I wasn't being unfair or going out of my way to diss the man, but god forbid anyone have a different opinion. I wouldnt have even minded that so much if he hadn't joined in on the public taunting when I tried bumping a few older SMiLE threads--if we disagree on a topic, that's no big deal, but to join the crowd and put me down personally as a result was pretty petty I thought. I've been accused by others of not accepting criticism, so I think that last paragraph may also be a barb at me too. Which, if it is, I think it's really unfair and uncalled for. Basically what I'm saying is, he's not worth your time to argue with. Even when you best him, or point out how unreasonable he's acting, he plays the victim and/or acts like you're also in the wrong to the same extent he is. It's truly maddening.

Sorry, Pinder, but that's just my personal experience.

No offense taken, and I am fully aware of how I can come across, and I do try and stave that behavior, which is partly why I take frequent lengthy breaks from his board (I just set myself up for a wealth of barbs here) .... But I've been called out and insulted just as much as you're accusing me of doing, only it seems to be A-OK when it's certain posters doing the calling-out and insulting.... All that said, we ARE discussing things that are highly emotionally charged topics for not just some of us. This needs to be understood. The condescending tone that creeps in is the thing that always ends up getting me going, and I'll stand behind my opinion of it not always being cool.

I debate with great veracity, but I hope I haven't insulted anyone on a personal level. If I do, anyone can feel free to call me out on it, since I obviously don't like to be on the receiving end myself. I wasn't as polite to sweetdudejim as I couldve been on another thread, and it actually benefited both of us I think, when he called me out on it.

I don't think myself or anyone really has crossed the line into simply untenable behavior here on this board (well, aside from some choice personal messages I've received) and different people debate with great veracity in different ways/styles .... What on occasion bothers me with certain lengthy posts/replies is that a feeling comes across that based upon the time and effort taken to compose such posts/replies, this automatically makes disagreement especially prone to being taken as insult, irregardless of the content of said posts/replies or disagreement. I think we've seen ample evidence of this, though it is thankfully rare. But this occasional attitude of this sort of "what business do you have disagreeing with me?" type of thing, usually followed up with "polite" insults at the quality of the disagreer's contributions to the discussion is something I can't help but take issue with. Sometimes people disagree not just to put forth an opposing opinion, but also to learn.

I type long-winded replies because I'm passionate about what I'm writing about, and I want to debate my point as effectively as possible. I guess I could just say "Nope. I'm right." But that doesn't benefit anyone now, does it? This way, I can explain where I'm coming from, they can get an idea of why I disagree and maybe we can find common ground and home in on the details we still disagree with. That, to me, is an intelligent, interesting, meaningful discussion. I love it when the people I'm "arguing" with respond in kind. I guess not everyone looks at it that way, but it seems guitarfool does.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

That's crossing the line and I don't appreciate it at all. If you have a problem just say it to me directly and cut the veiled personal insult routine. If you can't do that, or if you have no rational or appropriate way to reply to things that have been written by me or anyone else here, then consider dropping the kind of stuff that you just posted here entirely. If you can't discuss these things even in a heated debate kind of way without going to veiled personal insults against me or anyone else, you'll get called out like you were in other threads by posters other than me when the same stuff went down and you did the same routine.  It's not welcome, it's not funny or cool, and I promise I'm done with it for good this time. And others might be as well, but that's just speculation.

And if you don't like my paper length replies, don't read them. Your call. But don't patronize or insult me for writing what I want to write or how I want to write it. It's an open forum here, and if people have a problem with what I write here or the length or content of my posts, get in touch, let me know, and we'll talk. Or just don't read them. Plenty of words on this board to entertain, plenty of cool photos too.

Your call. Just don't drag me or how I contribute here into it. And try to man up and just come out with it directly if you do have an issue instead of using hit-and-run terms like "term paper length replies".

Guitarfool, you're one of the best posters on this board as far as I can see. I applaud you for sticking up for yourself here--you've done nothing but intelligently argue your position which is what this board should be for.

I say just ignore Pinder. He has a tendency to drag arguments on unnecessarily to the point where they become absolutely ridiculous. One of the reasons I stopped coming here for a few months was because he kept dragging me into this stupid fight about Mike Love. I wasn't being unfair or going out of my way to diss the man, but god forbid anyone have a different opinion. I wouldnt have even minded that so much if he hadn't joined in on the public taunting when I tried bumping a few older SMiLE threads--if we disagree on a topic, that's no big deal, but to join the crowd and put me down personally as a result was pretty petty I thought. I've been accused by others of not accepting criticism, so I think that last paragraph may also be a barb at me too. Which, if it is, I think it's really unfair and uncalled for. Basically what I'm saying is, he's not worth your time to argue with. Even when you best him, or point out how unreasonable he's acting, he plays the victim and/or acts like you're also in the wrong to the same extent he is. It's truly maddening.

Sorry, Pinder, but that's just my personal experience.

No offense taken, and I am fully aware of how I can come across, and I do try and stave that behavior, which is partly why I take frequent lengthy breaks from his board (I just set myself up for a wealth of barbs here) .... But I've been called out and insulted just as much as you're accusing me of doing, only it seems to be A-OK when it's certain posters doing the calling-out and insulting.... All that said, we ARE discussing things that are highly emotionally charged topics for not just some of us. This needs to be understood. The condescending tone that creeps in is the thing that always ends up getting me going, and I'll stand behind my opinion of it not always being cool.

I debate with great veracity, but I hope I haven't insulted anyone on a personal level. If I do, anyone can feel free to call me out on it, since I obviously don't like to be on the receiving end myself. I wasn't as polite to sweetdudejim as I couldve been on another thread, and it actually benefited both of us I think, when he called me out on it.

I don't think myself or anyone really has crossed the line into simply untenable behavior here on this board (well, aside from some choice personal messages I've received) and different people debate with great veracity in different ways/styles .... What on occasion bothers me with certain lengthy posts/replies is that a feeling comes across that based upon the time and effort taken to compose such posts/replies, this automatically makes disagreement especially prone to being taken as insult, irregardless of the content of said posts/replies or disagreement. I think we've seen ample evidence of this, though it is thankfully rare. But this occasional attitude of this sort of "what business do you have disagreeing with me?" type of thing, usually followed up with "polite" insults at the quality of the disagreer's contributions to the discussion is something I can't help but take issue with. Sometimes people disagree not just to put forth an opposing opinion, but also to learn.

I type long-winded replies because I'm passionate about what I'm writing about, and I want to debate my point as effectively as possible. I guess I could just say "Nope. I'm right." But that doesn't benefit anyone now, does it? This way, I can explain where I'm coming from, they can get an idea of why I disagree and maybe we can find common ground and home in on the details we still disagree with. That, to me, is an intelligent, interesting, meaningful discussion. I love it when the people I'm "arguing" with respond in kind. I guess not everyone looks at it that way, but it seems guitarfool does.

Oh, I love long posts/replies. Don't get me wrong (which I know I've made easy) and I've contributed some hefty streams of chatter myself..... I'm just describing a peculiar phenomena I've noticed in relation to certain long posts.....