VDP talks of SMILE and a lotta other music!

[astroray]

http://www.goldminemag.com/article/van-dyke-parks-reflects-making-music-terms-investing

[Tricycle Rider]

Thanks astroray, for posting that link.

In light of the recent SMiLE threads, I find Van Dyke's comments interesting.

GOLDMINE: The Beach Boys’ “Smile” is widely revered, but where do you rank your contributions to it among your own body of work?

VAN DYKE PARKS: Well, as I look back on it, I feel vindicated in the work. I always did, because I contributed as I felt I should; to do the right thing is all that matters to me, regardless of how it might be interpreted. And I feel I did the right thing.

When Brian Wilson sought to migrate into the counter-revolution, he needed to break the habit of excess that was in the feel-good sleepwalk of the Eisenhower era. He found a solution in my lyrics — which were, as a matter of fact, only a reaction to the imaginative musical work that he was doing.

I’ve never felt it had the epic importance in my own experience that the public eventually accorded it. I think that the public went nuts over it because the backstory was probably more of a sympathetic nature than the front story. Perhaps the work itself could not be understood, and yet Wilson’s psychological afflictions were something that deserved a lot of sympathy. He got a lot of sympathy, and I got a lot of heartache from that project.

I did everything I could to run from [“Smile”], and when it became convenient to Brian and [his wife] to revisit that [in 2004] because of the clamor of the interactive audience that “Smile” created, I went right back into the fold and just picked up where I’d left off and filled in a few gaps that had been left in the work. It was like getting on a bicycle after years of commuting in an automobile. It was so easy for me; it was like second nature. And the reason for that is because “Smile” hit on something that I could understand, and that was the American dream gone awry.[end of quote]

There are some interesting comments in there. Here are a few I'm pondering about.

1. Perhaps the work itself could not be understood, and yet Wilson’s psychological afflictions were something that deserved a lot of sympathy. He got a lot of sympathy, and I got a lot of heartache from that project.

Is he talking about The Beach Boys here?...since the work wasn't released at the time, only those who heard it could misunderstand it.
Then again, maybe he just means the public "in hindsight"

2. I did everything I could to run from [“Smile”], and when it became convenient to Brian and [his wife] to revisit that [in 2004] because of the clamor of the interactive audience that “Smile” created, I went right back into the fold and just picked up where I’d left off and filled in a few gaps that had been left in the work.

Not walk away from SMiLE, but "run" from it. Is he talking about the legacy of it hanging over his head, or literally "running" to get away from the project at the time?

"Convenient" for Brian "and his wife". I couldn't help but think of the 2004 Dutch interview (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,17837.0.html) and Sheriff John Stone's EXCELLENT comments in that thread.

The line "and just picked up where I’d left off and filled in a few gaps that had been left in the work." is interesting too.

Is he alluding to leaving the project before it was actually finished?

This whole "problem between Brian and Van Dyke" thing and it's importance in the demise of SMiLE, certainly has been coming into better focus over the years. I remember (in the old days of SMiLE mythology) when it was Brian and Van Dyke on one side, and some of the Beach Boys (particularly that "evil" Mike Love) on the other. It seems funny to me now.

One other thing: Before the new 'mythology" becomes "It was Van Dyke's fault", let's remember that IF he left before the project was finished, he likely did so to save a family, NOT to abandon a job.

Oh well, those are my thought's for today 

[leggo of my ego]

http://www.goldminemag.com/article/van-dyke-parks-reflects-making-music-terms-investing

VAN DYKE PARKS: Well, as I look back on it, I feel vindicated in the work...

Yes that seems to be all of what Vandyck is about these days...or maybe thats never changed//

[Dancing Bear]

One other thing: Before the new 'mythology" becomes "It was Van Dyke's fault", let's remember that IF he left before the project was finished, he likely did so to save a family, NOT to abandon a job.

May I disagree? He left to pursue his own solo album, after writing all the Smile lyrics that were required. He lived in the same city as Brian and could have written more lyrics, just like he did in 2003, without affecting his solo career. He just didn't have time anymore to be a session man for an album which recordings seemed to drag for months.

And you know what? I'd have signed to Warner too and focused on my own album. In a heartbeat.

[guitarfool2002]

Not walk away from SMiLE, but "run" from it. Is he talking about the legacy of it hanging over his head, or literally "running" to get away from the project at the time?

"Convenient" for Brian "and his wife". I couldn't help but think of the 2004 Dutch interview (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,17837.0.html) and Sheriff John Stone's EXCELLENT comments in that thread.

The line "and just picked up where I’d left off and filled in a few gaps that had been left in the work." is interesting too.

Is he alluding to leaving the project before it was actually finished?

This whole "problem between Brian and Van Dyke" thing and it's importance in the demise of SMiLE, certainly has been coming into better focus over the years. I remember (in the old days of SMiLE mythology) when it was Brian and Van Dyke on one side, and some of the Beach Boys (particularly that "evil" Mike Love) on the other. It seems funny to me now.

One other thing: Before the new 'mythology" becomes "It was Van Dyke's fault", let's remember that IF he left before the project was finished, he likely did so to save a family, NOT to abandon a job.

Oh well, those are my thought's for today 

I'll try to be diplomatic and fair about this, but I'd suggest looking deeper into these things and consider more than what some opinions on this board have been promoting. I'll add that there are people who post and have posted on this board who have spoken directly to some of the participants directly involved with Brian, Smile, and various friends and even family members who were there and witnessed what we're talking about firsthand. And people who have, in fact, spent personal and unguarded moments with some of the people involved.

Bottom line: A lot of this kind of talk was given in confidence, which means it's not going to be "published" and specific details may not ever be described for public consumption because some of it is, in fact, private and various parties wish it to remain that way. The fact that we do have some firsthand participants who have gone on the record and told what they witnessed through various interviews and comments published as early as 1967 is good for weighing all of the information in a historical sense. What it does not mean is those kinds of comments are the be-all and end-all of what happened, but it does suggest a little more authority on what happened if they were directly involved than someone creating and expressing a theory based on what they think happened with no direct involvement.

Open it up a bit to a direct question: With all of the definitive statements already made in this thread, are they anything more than a fan's opinion? Again, all opinions are welcome, but the issue also can be one of "more to the story", and even in that way there is more to the story that has been published and is on the record.

What prompted me to post this was the notion of the so-called "old Smile mythology", about things coming into a more clear focus, as if a greater understanding of the situation or situations at hand is now a reality...but what are you basing this "new reality" on, exactly?

It's not my intent to call anyone out, but at the same time it's relative to the discussion: Has Sheriff Stone ever spent a personal moment with Brian Wilson, an unguarded moment where they're shooting the bull over a beer or a sandwich, or even just interacting as people rather than as a fan and object of fandom?

Fact is, there are a very, very small handful of people who actually have done that, going back decades and up to the present. They heard the unguarded moments that weren't part of interviews or various press and PR to promote an album or tour, and in the case of Smile as it happened, there are in fact a few people who actually witnessed it and reported *some* of what happened on the record.

One of those is Michael Vosse, the late Michael Vosse. His accounts of what he saw when he was one of those who spent a lot of private, unguarded and unscripted personal time with Brian in 1966 and 1967 seemed to upset the apple cart of what some would rather see reported as "the truth" (as evidenced by some of the words posted above) to the point where he was all but written off by some board members here as an interloper, a "hanger-on", and whatever else in order to diminish not only his accounts but also his credibility.

That, to me, is ridiculous. For that matter, how about Danny Hutton? Was he also one of these "hanger on" characters, who attached themselves to Brian for nefarious reasons in 1966-67, especially if some of what he may remember doesn't jive with the account some folks would prefer to hear?

Could it be Danny, and Michael, and David, and any number of these people were friends? Good friends, even? Friends who themselves have achieved quite a bit of success in their relative fields without leeching "cred" off of Brian Wilson, or any other ridiculous notion of what a hanger-on would do?

Three Dog Night...remind me, how many records did they sell in the 70's? Something like...millions...maybe tens of millions?

Anyway.

Consider this before using the opinions of fans on message boards in order to shape your own version of what may or may not be the reality of what happened in some of these cases. In the case of Smile, consider at least reading the Michael Vosse "Fusion" interview again, and consider what he reported he saw less than 2 years after he saw it. Re-read the Anderle interview.

Heck, take it even a step further, and if you're truly interested in getting more of the facts to consider, try to watch each and every available interview clip where Brian Wilson himself has talked about Smile. Hiding somewhere among those clips may just be something revelatory that everyone missed the first time around.

I'm just saying this as a call to some reason, and some separation of ideals versus ideas...versus firsthand accounts.

If you're willing to base most of your ideas about Smile and the whole saga in general on people's opinions and theories who have perhaps never spent a single minute of private conversation with Brian or anyone else involved, while dismissing the words of those present and past who *actually have spent many private/personal moments with Brian* and have reported what they saw as "old mythology", it becomes a case of opinion taking over as fact. Why? Perhaps some want to believe the opinion so strongly they'll buy into whatever "feels right"?

Just because something is repeated continuously and loudly doesn't make it the truth.

Also, just because someone labels previous eyewitness accounts as "mythology", that doesn't mean it's so.

And...as long as there are people out there trying to promote opinions as "the new reality", which is another way of describing revisionist history, consider there are people who know what happened having witnessed it firsthand, and people who have heard from those people what happened, and those people might be more than willing to step in when the rhetoric gets so ridiculous and starts to be presented as the factual history...if they have not done so already in various publications and interviews that conveniently get forgotten, ignored, or passed over in favor of the "new reality" being offered.

Just sayin'. 

[Cam Mott]

I would add, also don't just focus on some of the witness.

[Mr. Cohen]

The secret to the mystery is in the bridge of "Amusement Parks USA".

[KittyKat]

Poor Van Dyke and his carpal tunnel/tendinitis/trigger finger. Hope his hands get better and he can tour again.

[Tricycle Rider]

YIKES! Guitarfool, I didn't mean to cause such a response! Especially from one of my favorite posters on this board. (really)

For what it's worth, after I read my post (immediately after posting it) I realized that it didn't come out quite the way I intended it to, and tried to change it, but some weird glitch happened with either my internet, or this site, where it wouldn't connect. I left the tab open, and went on to other things, and didn't see your post until just now when I opened a new tab to see if I was able to connect with the site.

I still have that original tab open, and i took a screen shot of it, but I can't seem to attach it to this post. The board will let me browse for what i want to attach, and load it, but where is the button that actually says "attach"? When I preview my post, the attachment isn't there. I'm sure it's user error.

Some people are better than others at this posting thing. You, Guitarfool are EXCELLENT at it. I'm terrible at it. I can't seem to express myself properly, and i never learned to type properly, so it takes me FOREVER to get things out. It's a real "ocean through a straw" thing for me.

All I meant to do is ponder some of the things that Van Dyke was saying, and to remember the old days (late 70s-80s) when not much was known about SMiLE amongst the general population. (not that a lot is known now)

Unless you were around in the 60s and read contemporary articles (Seigal/Williams/Vosse/Nolan) you were out of luck. They didn't reprint things then, Dom's book wasn't out yet, no internet, no SMiLE Shoppe.

I just remember that from what I "heard" back then, (a lot of it from those hipsters you would run into at your local record shops) The Beach Boys (especially Mike) didn't like the LP, and that's why it didn't happen. We know now that it was not that simple, and that there were multiple reasons combined that brought about what happened.

That being said, obviously we will never know EXACTLY what happened for a variety of reasons.

All I meant by the "Van Dykes fault" thing was, to beware of trying to make the SMiLE thing black and white when it's really shades of grey. In fact, it was that part of the post that I was trying to go back in and change.

I hope i made more sense this time!  

[Dancing Bear]

I don't know why we are still debating... Smile as a three movement work was voted down in a band meeting, that's why it didn't happen. Brian's original vision got crushed.

 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

YIKES! Guitarfool, I didn't mean to cause such a response! Especially from one of my favorite posters on this board. (really)

For what it's worth, after I read my post (immediately after posting it) I realized that it didn't come out quite the way I intended it to, and tried to change it, but some weird glitch happened with either my internet, or this site, where it wouldn't connect. I left the tab open, and went on to other things, and didn't see your post until just now when I opened a new tab to see if I was able to connect with the site.

I still have that original tab open, and i took a screen shot of it, but I can't seem to attach it to this post. The board will let me browse for what i want to attach, and load it, but where is the button that actually says "attach"? When I preview my post, the attachment isn't there. I'm sure it's user error.

Some people are better than others at this posting thing. You, Guitarfool are EXCELLENT at it. I'm terrible at it. I can't seem to express myself properly, and i never learned to type properly, so it takes me FOREVER to get things out. It's a real "ocean through a straw" thing for me.

All I meant to do is ponder some of the things that Van Dyke was saying, and to remember the old days (late 70s-80s) when not much was known about SMiLE amongst the general population. (not that a lot is known now)

Unless you were around in the 60s and read contemporary articles (Seigal/Williams/Vosse/Nolan) you were out of luck. They didn't reprint things then, Dom's book wasn't out yet, no internet, no SMiLE Shoppe.

I just remember that from what I "heard" back then, (a lot of it from those hipsters you would run into at your local record shops) The Beach Boys (especially Mike) didn't like the LP, and that's why it didn't happen. We know now that it was not that simple, and that there were multiple reasons combined that brought about what happened.

That being said, obviously we will never know EXACTLY what happened for a variety of reasons.

All I meant by the "Van Dykes fault" thing was, to beware of trying to make the SMiLE thing black and white when it's really shades of grey. In fact, it was that part of the post that I was trying to go back in and change.

I hope i made more sense this time!  

I'd also add: never apologize for your opinions! Especially not on a public messageboard.... This place is no particular poster's classroom and we are not doing term papers here..... You're a great poster too! Let it rip!!!!

[Wirestone]

I would add, also don't just focus on some of the witness.

Cam and I don't always agree, but this point is quite valid. The problem is, that for many years we didn't hear much from the Beach Boys themselves about Smile -- except that they were trying to finish it, or that one track or another was coming out. The first draft of history was largely from Brian's confidants during the time -- and they had their perspective. But it certainly wasn't the only one.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

True, but we've gotten a lot of chatter from The Beach Boys in the intervening years regarding SMILE, so now we have the luxury of picking and choosing which perspective to believe (if it matters).. or just letting it be and letting the happy ending to the saga that happened in 2004 be the thing....

[Steve Mayo]

Poor Van Dyke and his carpal tunnel/tendinitis/trigger finger. Hope his hands get better and he can tour again.

I hope so too. out of the blue a few years ago all my fingers went trigger. and carpal tunnel in both hands. hurts like hell. had surgery on both hands for the carpal tunnel and so far surgery on 8 of my fingers. still have 2 fingers to fix. luckily the surgery fix is not that bad and it fixes the problem. so if he has the surgeries he should be ok.  but those conditions are a bitch to deal with until fixed, especially the carpal tunnel. it will drive you nuts until it is fixed.

[KittyKat]

Poor Van Dyke and his carpal tunnel/tendinitis/trigger finger. Hope his hands get better and he can tour again.

I hope so too. out of the blue a few years ago all my fingers went trigger. and carpal tunnel in both hands. hurts like hell. had surgery on both hands for the carpal tunnel and so far surgery on 8 of my fingers. still have 2 fingers to fix. luckily the surgery fix is not that bad and it fixes the problem. so if he has the surgeries he should be ok.  but those conditions are a bitch to deal with until fixed, especially the carpal tunnel. it will drive you nuts until it is fixed.

I've had tendinitis and trigger thumb/finger from too much computer and tablet use. Once I cut back when I had some days off work, they went away for awhile. I now make sure to take lots of short breaks and hand position changes/stretches on my job, where I use my laptop and tablet all day long. I wonder how much of Van Dyke's problem was caused by or made worse by those devices. He sure is on Twitter a lot, and posts lots of links, so he must get his fair share of electronic device use.

[Dave in KC]

The secret to the mystery is in the bridge of "Amusement Parks USA".

Please, I'm missing something here. What mystery? APUSA? I love solving mysteries but have no clue what this is about. That song is ancient. I hear the bridge in my head but even if I go and listen to it I'd still be lost. Not the bridge, but I went to Euclid Beach in the late 50's. My dear grandmother took me in the middle of the Summer, in the middle of the week, in the middle of the day. It was surrealistic! Set the plate for Cedar Point the rest of my life.

[Cam Mott]

True, but we've gotten a lot of chatter from The Beach Boys in the intervening years regarding SMILE, so now we have the luxury of picking and choosing which perspective to believe (if it matters).. or just letting it be and letting the happy ending to the saga that happened in 2004 be the thing....

Plus some of the witness seems to be actively ignored imo, ie. re. VDP and BW's relationship and it's effect. Doesn't change anything but a sort of hole in the conversation and a misrepresentation imo.

[guitarfool2002]

To Tricycle Rider: I have the same problems posting, a lot of times what I'm thinking comes out looking/feeling different as it appears on the page! Many times the mood and spirit of what I'm thinking comes off more harsh or "finger pointing" than what I'm thinking at the time. I get caught up in the emotion.

[guitarfool2002]

Commenting in general on this thread, I do need to add that some things are, in fact, a case of black and white. What happened is actually what happened, and some points can't be shaded into whatever level of "gray" fits an opinion or even an agenda. The problem with these specific issues is that so much of what has been written as commentary or opinion is entered into the lexicon as "fact", and that goes both ways. I've personally been involved in long discussions here and other places where some long-held myths have been "busted" by simply looking at the facts. It's fine to look at a set of events and analyze them, then interpret them into an opinion. But when that gets entered into the record alongside the facts, and no disclaimer is present, that's when I think the bigger problems start multiplying.

I can compare this to the early days of Napster, MyPlay lockers, and any other mp3 sharing systems where you could download and upload anything and call it anything with no attached information. So I do remember even with Smile tracks some completely wrong, completely bogus tracks being labeled and passed around as Smile Sessions, let's say, and in some cases it was pure nonsense. In some cases some enterprising unknown performers labeled their own covers or instrumental noodlings as Smile material, and it got passed around to who knows how many unknowing fans who were hearing some guy with a DAW recording his own stuff and seeing it passed around as Smile music.

Why even mention those few cases? Because it left open a possibility of a total misrepresentation of what Smile actually was. That Ant-Bee "Worms"...An in-joke for decades, but at the same time how many people for years who got a Smile boot or copy of one thought that was a legit Smile recording? It takes away from the uniqueness and special nature of the original to have a random musician's work being considered part of what some fans like me consider among the best music of the 20th century.

So I feel very much the same when opinions - and let me clarify opinions on any side of the Smile discussion - are passed off in the same way.

Now what really bugs me across the board beyond Smile are ham-fisted attempts at revisionist history. Again, there are some things, some parts of the equation which are solid fact, absolutes if you will.

The easiest and most lazy way of playing the revisionist history game would be to simply ignore, discredit, or completely erase those facts from the "official record". That way, anyone who didn't already know those facts will read the "new reality" version, devoid of those facts and points, and will read a version of events that was based on incomplete data to a point.

Simple equation: A+B+C = D.  If someone has proven that equation beyond doubt, they've used three absolute components or variables to prove it. Now, if someone comes along later and either changes or even removes the "C" component, it totally changes the equation, right? It doesn't necessarily mean they've shown the original solution to be faulty, or the original equation to be less than absolute fact, but rather they've changed the variables to prove their own equation, or even worse to change the original variables to disprove or discredit the original solution (or the person who originally proved it).

How does this tie in?

Again, I point to the Vosse and Anderle magazine pieces, both appearing less than two years after the original Smile happenings. They both specifically mention Brian and Van Dyke Parks butting heads, having some conflicts, both being very headstrong and perhaps a little arrogant and clashing on various issues. But they were also very unique talents who were regularly pushing one another to higher levels of creativity. That's common among creative types, talented artistic types, and the like.

Point is, this issue of Brian and Van Dyke butting heads was on the record since 1967, I don't know if anyone disputes that. But alongside those issues were also specific reports of tensions within the group, and tensions between family members regarding the direction of the band and specifically the direction of the music. Some of that tension is also described as having an effect on Brian and how he was working on the project.

For specifics, again I suggest reading those articles. Because it's there in black and white. And the point is, it's fine to entertain any fan opinions and analysis in 2014, including my own. But what I don't agree with is trying to revise or even remove certain facets of those original accounts in order to suit a specific opinion, or dare I say an agenda. When you have articles like the Vosse and Anderle pieces which cover a wide range of topics as I mentioned above, and report a variety of factors that were at work in 1966-67, it's there in black and white.

If someone wants to try shading some of that into a gray area open to revision and whatnot, I'm curious to hear which specific parts of those Vosse or Anderle pieces they would consider to have been proven incorrect, untrue, or otherwise subject to discredit based on use of faulty info.

And understand, I get so involved in this stuff because the music means a lot to me and has since i first heard it. I just think a fair telling of the story isn't much to ask in return.

[Mr. Cohen]

I'm sure Mike and Brian butted heads now and then. Who works with people on big budget projects without disagreements?

[Bean Bag]

VDP has a strange way of verbalizing his thoughts.  But they're always so damn sincere.

For example -- I think the "convenient for Brian and wife" comment simply means that it was a good time to revisit the project.  For whatever reason.  Brian was in a good place.  Brian feeling he needed closure.  Whatever it was -- it was convenient for them.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

VDP has a strange way of verbalizing his thoughts.  But they're always so damn sincere.

For example -- I think the "convenient for Brian and wife" comment simply means that it was a good time to revisit the project.  For whatever reason.  Brian was in a good place.  Brian feeling he needed closure.  Whatever it was -- it was convenient for them.

What does it say when the only person seemingly capable of successfully verbalizing their thoughts in this entire Beach Boys saga was Dennis??

[KittyKat]

I don't think VDP likes being continually asked about "Smile." I think he'd rather be known for other things, like writing music. He doesn't even think Brian is a genius, either. Someone asked him the other day if Brian is a genius and he said that's what Derek Taylor wanted people to believe. Chilly!

[Cam Mott]

I suppose it is about nuance. There is resistance yet beautiful singing while the most antagonistic situation isn't antagonistic, it is great love. There is great respect and simpatico and then resentment and falling out yet gratitude and faithfulness. It's complicated but simple. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I don't think VDP likes being continually asked about "Smile." I think he'd rather be known for other things, like writing music. He doesn't even think Brian is a genius, either. Someone asked him the other day if Brian is a genius and he said that's what Derek Taylor wanted people to believe. Chilly!

Weird...your post count says 'leet'.  That's quite odd