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Author Topic: Never Learn Not To Love is criminally under-appreciated  (Read 15254 times)
Disney Boy (1985)
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« on: July 06, 2014, 01:08:00 AM »

Ok, firstly, please can we stick to discussing the song in question and not get into people's boring oft-expressed opinions on the merits or lack thereof of Dennis' songwriting/genius/etc. Thanks!

So... Never Learn Not To Love is an awesome piece of work!

Yes, Manson's involvement casts a shadow but look past that and actually listen to the track - and loudly!

It really is a stunning production. Dennis' inventive streak is to the fore and there is just so much going on: the ominous opening; the amazingly intricate and varied vocal arrangements; the chord changes during the 'come in closer' section (this section in particular has been wowing me of late; listen to the pounding instrumentation as Dennis sings 'closer, closer, ahhhhhh-ahhhhhh' - the chord changes here, especially in the second chorus, just knock me out).

To me, this track - more than any other on Friends and 20/20 - shows how insanely quickly Dennis' talents in the studio were advancing. I think it holds up to Cabinessence (oh God, Brian fans, please don't go off on one about that: I'm not saying it's as good as Cabinessence, merely that it complements it...) and I think the closing trio of tracks on 20/20 demonstrates what a truly incredible band the BB's could've grown into had Brian and Dennis both not succumbed to their demons.
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bluesno1fann
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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2014, 01:10:35 AM »

Yes, Yes a thousand times Yes!

The song is excellent, I really wish people would just get over how it was written by Charles Manson. So what? Whether it was Manson or not, the song's brilliant.

And agreed with the Cabinessence part  Wink. Though I think Be With Me is a better example of Dennis's fast-advancing talents.
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Disney Boy (1985)
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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2014, 01:13:31 AM »

Yes, Yes a thousand times Yes!

The song is excellent, I really wish people would just get over how it was written by Charles Manson. So what? Whether it was Manson or not, the song's brilliant.

And agreed with the Cabinessence part  Wink. Though I think Be With Me is a better example of Dennis's fast-advancing talents.

See, with me, I really like Be With Me - but I love Never Learn...
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bluesno1fann
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2014, 01:14:56 AM »

Yes, Yes a thousand times Yes!

The song is excellent, I really wish people would just get over how it was written by Charles Manson. So what? Whether it was Manson or not, the song's brilliant.

And agreed with the Cabinessence part  Wink. Though I think Be With Me is a better example of Dennis's fast-advancing talents.

See, with me, I really like Be With Me - but I love Never Learn...

I love both songs  Smiley The highlights of 20/20 along with I Can Hear Music and Cabinessence (even if that one doesn't fit onto 20/20).
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retrokid67
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« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2014, 01:15:25 AM »

I agree the "come in closer..." line is my favorite part of the song.  I heard the original version of the song and it's nothing close to this one. and Denny did a great job singing it live on the Mike Douglas Show, his falsetto sounded nice  Smiley
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"In this new day, change your heart.  Forgive your brother, for life is precious."

-Dennis Wilson
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« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2014, 01:22:50 AM »


 I think the closing trio of tracks on 20/20 demonstrates what a truly incredible band the BB's could've grown into had Brian and Dennis both not succumbed to their demons.

I'd say the BB's became everything these last 3 tracks suggested they could be and more.
As for Never Learn Not to Love, the Manson connection does not bother me at all because I think Manson's original is a great song in it's own right. It's certainly one of Dennis' best productions, I sort of wish he'd made more of this and Celebrate the News style songs and less ballads.
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bluesno1fann
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« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2014, 01:27:55 AM »

I agree the "come in closer..." line is my favorite part of the song.  I heard the original version of the song and it's nothing close to this one. and Denny did a great job singing it live on the Mike Douglas Show, his falsetto sounded nice  Smiley

You mean this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I0v2bVX8j4

TBH I think Dennis could have done better on the vocals, I can understand some of the criticism on the comments section. But his singing on the studio version is far better.
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retrokid67
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« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2014, 01:30:33 AM »


 I think the closing trio of tracks on 20/20 demonstrates what a truly incredible band the BB's could've grown into had Brian and Dennis both not succumbed to their demons.

I'd say the BB's became everything these last 3 tracks suggested they could be and more.
As for Never Learn Not to Love, the Manson connection does not bother me at all because I think Manson's original is a great song in it's own right. It's certainly one of Dennis' best productions, I sort of wish he'd made more of this and Celebrate the News style songs and less ballads.

I do too. I enjoy his ballads but (excluding Forever and WIBNTLA) I find that I listen to his other songs more
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"In this new day, change your heart.  Forgive your brother, for life is precious."

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retrokid67
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2014, 01:37:14 AM »

I agree the "come in closer..." line is my favorite part of the song.  I heard the original version of the song and it's nothing close to this one. and Denny did a great job singing it live on the Mike Douglas Show, his falsetto sounded nice  Smiley

You mean this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I0v2bVX8j4

TBH I think Dennis could have done better on the vocals, I can understand some of the criticism on the comments section. But his singing on the studio version is far better.

 

i like the studio version a lot more too and if i had to pick between his live version of this and Celebrate the News, i would pick the latter.  but i did like his falsetto because he didn't do that often.  there's a live recording of Slip on Through but the recording is not too clear so when he sang "By your SIDE" or "Oh my LIFE" it sounded kind of raspy compared to this
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"In this new day, change your heart.  Forgive your brother, for life is precious."

-Dennis Wilson
bluesno1fann
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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2014, 01:41:48 AM »


 I think the closing trio of tracks on 20/20 demonstrates what a truly incredible band the BB's could've grown into had Brian and Dennis both not succumbed to their demons.

I'd say the BB's became everything these last 3 tracks suggested they could be and more.
As for Never Learn Not to Love, the Manson connection does not bother me at all because I think Manson's original is a great song in it's own right. It's certainly one of Dennis' best productions, I sort of wish he'd made more of this and Celebrate the News style songs and less ballads.

I do too. I enjoy his ballads but (excluding Forever and WIBNTLA) I find that I listen to his other songs more

Same. I wish he made more rockers and others.
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halblaineisgood
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« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2014, 01:50:35 AM »

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« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 08:04:01 AM by Al Jardine: TheDickup Artist » Logged
halblaineisgood
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« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2014, 01:52:54 AM »

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DrZombi
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« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2014, 05:03:04 AM »

Charles Manson or not, I still find "Never Learn not to Love" to be a boring filler track.  It's definitely the only Dennis song I don't like.  

Cabinessence and Our Prayer really don't fit on 20/20.  And what were they thinking, putting Student Demonstration Time on Surf's Up?  

Is "criminally under appreciated" supposed to be a pun?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 05:54:27 AM by DrZombi » Logged
RioGrande
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« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2014, 05:16:40 AM »

Sorry, but I think one has to draw some lines, somewhere. Aesthetics and ethics cannot be 100% separated. I draw my "pure art appreciation" line well before songs written by Manson. Won't let a leopard eat me because it's a beautiful animal.

And the word "criminally" in the thread title... not a good idea.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 05:18:30 AM by RioGrande » Logged
Ovi
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« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2014, 05:36:20 AM »

Sorry, but I think one has to draw some lines, somewhere. Aesthetics and ethics cannot be 100% separated. I draw my "pure art appreciation" line well before songs written by Manson. Won't let a leopard eat me because it's a beautiful animal.

Do you feel the same about Phil Spector's music? Do you draw the line before I Can Hear Music too?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 05:39:29 AM by Ovi » Logged
RioGrande
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« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2014, 06:46:11 AM »

To answer a straw man fallacy with another, would you listen with no problems whatsoever to a song by Adolf Hitler?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 06:47:55 AM by RioGrande » Logged
Disney Boy (1985)
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« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2014, 06:47:50 AM »

Sorry, but I think one has to draw some lines, somewhere. Aesthetics and ethics cannot be 100% separated. I draw my "pure art appreciation" line well before songs written by Manson. Won't let a leopard eat me because it's a beautiful animal.

And the word "criminally" in the thread title... not a good idea.


So... I'm assuming you don't watch any of Roman Polanski's films then? Or like any of Phil Spector's music?

In fact, I certainly hope you don't like any of Phil Spector's music (including any BB cover versions) because, unlike Manson, Spector actually did kill someone and so, you know, that'd make you a tad hypocritical, don't you think?
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RioGrande
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« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2014, 06:55:56 AM »

Sorry, but I think one has to draw some lines, somewhere. Aesthetics and ethics cannot be 100% separated. I draw my "pure art appreciation" line well before songs written by Manson. Won't let a leopard eat me because it's a beautiful animal.

And the word "criminally" in the thread title... not a good idea.


So... I'm assuming you don't watch any of Roman Polanski's films then? Or like any of Phil Spector's music?

In fact, I certainly hope you don't like any of Phil Spector's music (including any BB cover versions) because, unlike Manson, Spector actually did kill someone and so, you know, that'd make you a tad hypocritical, don't you think?


Hey, I knew I'd be flamed for what I said. It's my opinion none the less, hypocritical or not. Won't comment on that "unlike Manson..."


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Disney Boy (1985)
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« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2014, 07:00:03 AM »

Sorry, but I think one has to draw some lines, somewhere. Aesthetics and ethics cannot be 100% separated. I draw my "pure art appreciation" line well before songs written by Manson. Won't let a leopard eat me because it's a beautiful animal.

And the word "criminally" in the thread title... not a good idea.


So... I'm assuming you don't watch any of Roman Polanski's films then? Or like any of Phil Spector's music?

In fact, I certainly hope you don't like any of Phil Spector's music (including any BB cover versions) because, unlike Manson, Spector actually did kill someone and so, you know, that'd make you a tad hypocritical, don't you think?


Hey, I knew I'd be flamed for what I said. It's my opinion none the less, hypocritical or not. Won't comment on that "unlike Manson..."




Why not comment on it?

Manson didn't kill anybody. Was/is he a sick f***? Yep.
Did he kill anyone? No. Fact.
He wasn't at the scene of either killing spree. Whereas Spector blew a woman's head off, with a gun, which he pulled the trigger of.
That's the same Spector who co-wrote I Can Hear Music, Just Once In My Life, Then I Kissed Her, etc.
And the BB's covers of these songs are pretty much straight on-the-nose cover versions, whereas Dennis very heavily re-wrote Never Learn... The melody and instrumentation are all almost entirely his creation.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 07:01:32 AM by Disney Boy (1985) » Logged
halblaineisgood
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« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2014, 07:04:09 AM »

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« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 09:40:21 AM by Al Jardine: TheDickup Artist » Logged
Mike's Beard
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« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2014, 07:05:57 AM »

Actually it was more than likely Manson took a stab at Shorty Shea so yes he did physically murder someone. Still, it has zero bearing on me enjoying his music. I wonder if Aldof wrote any good tunes?
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halblaineisgood
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« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2014, 07:09:54 AM »

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« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 09:40:33 AM by Al Jardine: TheDickup Artist » Logged
RioGrande
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« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2014, 07:18:35 AM »

Actually it was more than likely Manson took a stab at Shorty Shea so yes he did physically murder someone. Still, it has zero bearing on me enjoying his music. I wonder if Aldof wrote any good tunes?

The Internet is always surprising. I googled your spelling and got 61,100 results, first of them a Youtube video titled "Aldof Hitler".

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Nicko1234
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« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2014, 07:19:47 AM »


Why not comment on it?

Manson didn't kill anybody. Was/is he a sick f***? Yep.
Did he kill anyone? No. Fact.
He wasn't at the scene of either killing spree. Whereas Spector blew a woman's head off, with a gun, which he pulled the trigger of.
That's the same Spector who co-wrote I Can Hear Music, Just Once In My Life, Then I Kissed Her, etc.
And the BB's covers of these songs are pretty much straight on-the-nose cover versions, whereas Dennis very heavily re-wrote Never Learn... The melody and instrumentation are all almost entirely his creation.

I think there is one big difference though. Phil Spector`s crime came decades after all of those songs were produced and the songs have nothing to do with his psyche all those years later. The lyrics to Never Learn Not to Love obviously have a lot more to do with Charles Manson`s psyche during that era.

I can`t honestly say that I care too much about that myself though. I just find the song very average and I think Dennis wrote much better songs of his own.
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Mike's Beard
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Check your privilege. Love & Mercy guys!


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« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2014, 07:45:42 AM »

Actually it was more than likely Manson took a stab at Shorty Shea so yes he did physically murder someone. Still, it has zero bearing on me enjoying his music. I wonder if Aldof wrote any good tunes?

The Internet is always surprising. I googled your spelling and got 61,100 results, first of them a Youtube video titled "Aldof Hitler".



I googled your username and all I got was sad jackass who seems to spend all his time on a board he can't stand with people he doesn't like.
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I'd rather be forced to sleep with Caitlyn Jenner then ever have to listen to NPP again.
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