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Author Topic: 4th of July is one HELL of a song.  (Read 28178 times)
the captain
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« Reply #175 on: July 09, 2014, 03:34:19 PM »

Can i just point out that it's maths not math - there's an 's' on the end. Thanks  Smiley

I'm relatively certain that's a style choice between two commonly accepted options, with the British more typically favoring "maths." (Merriam Webster and, I think, Oxford both allow both.) In that I just spelled "favoring" without the u, I think you can tell I'm not British. I'll stick to math. Not literally--I don't like it, which has all the Bach crowd so bothered--but, well, you get it.
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« Reply #176 on: July 09, 2014, 04:06:53 PM »

OK, for my Bach - Ellington - Wilson post...

A little bit of background--and I'm not saying this to try to wow anyone, there is nothing particularly remarkable here--I studied music in college, with a major in jazz theory and composition. So obviously that included both traditional (aka "classical") theory, history, etc., as well as my additional jazz-oriented work. I know many of you have done the same, I just throw it out there as context.

Bach is obviously brilliant. My "math" comment was made because much of his work, especially instrumental work, is put together like a logic puzzle. He was a master of using the somewhat formally established rules of counterpoint and harmonic progression to weave melodic ideas in and among one another in the assorted permutations: inversions, retrograde, blah blah blah, as well as just across the underlying chords. That kind of construction is remarkable, yes, but it is within such a strict framework that I have long-since jokingly called him a mathematician rather than a musician. Obviously I'm not so stupid as to think he isn't among the most important musicians of western musical history, whether I am a fan or not. (I'm not especially.)

And while someone posted a comment about a direct link from him through to B Wilson, I think that's way off other than that Bach influenced everyone to some degree, and that Wilson has stated an affinity for Bach. Wilson's harmonies and underlying chord structures are remarkable, but they are nothing like the more rigidly structured, formal progressions and relationships between parts that you find with Bach. Wilson breaks rules all the time (because he didn't know them, for one, and because he did whatever he wanted as long as he thought it sounded good). So parallel perfect intervals? No problem for BW, whereas Bach would have grimaced.

Wilson's harmonic language was also far more akin to Ellington's, which incorporated concepts not yet touched in Bach's time. The extensions (of the sort that Sean Lennon laughably called complex and beyond others in the Imagination doc, I think it was) that BW used in his vocal and instrumental arrangements were commonplace in jazz, which is of course where BW got them. In other words, where Bach's language consisted mostly of root-third-fifth and sometimes seventh, with suspensions in there for tension, Ellington's would consist of root-third-(often not fifth unless it was lowered or raised because otherwise it's implied and muddies things up)-seventh just as the obvious base, then ninth and thirteenth, or sometimes an eleventh in a minor situation, with the raised and lowered tones as mentioned in the parenthetical about the fifth. It was far more complicated harmonically.

Elliongton, like BW, melded disparate musical forms. He, like BW, took complex arrangements and presented them to the public in an accessible, digestible way. He wrote parts for the distinct talents of his current musicians, bringing together and showcasing musical personalities in the work. And of course he was highly influential on the pseudo-jazz, or jazz-influenced, composers that directly inspired BW, such as Gershwin. Whatever BW may think, I would say he is desended more directly from Ellington than from Bach. There is a strong argument to be made that he's the most important American composer of all time. Ellington's vocabulary was a huge influence on the entire musical world throughout the middle two quartiles of the 20th century.

At best tangentially related but interesting to me, though, is our inherent biases. The original poster didn't include a single jazz, blues, or traditionally "black" musical form composer or performer as a genius. That might just be lack of familiarity, or a dislike. I was quick to shove off Bach because Baroque music just isn't to my taste. Nobody has mentioned a rapper yet, but lovers of the genre would undoubtedly name some rappers as geniuses. A couple "classical" composers, an avant garde composer (Partch), and a few pop composers, plus my added-in jazz guys. Is that it? Of course not. What about folk, country, R&B, gospel, metal, EDM, or whatever other genre you want to dive into. The lists are impossibilities, clearly slanted to taste. As someone earlier said, there isn't a real line at which anyone can say "genius." There's no objective point total to be reached. It is complicated even more by musical types being so different; you may as well throw in non-musical geniuses--they're just as easy (or difficult) to compare for rights to use the word.

So, yeah, 4th of July. Some people like it.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 04:21:26 PM by the captain » Logged

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« Reply #177 on: July 09, 2014, 04:13:28 PM »

4th, like LPR, has this wavy background sound (sounds like a lot of pianos or something)

how did they record and produce that? Perhaps Stephen Desper might know?
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« Reply #178 on: July 09, 2014, 04:19:23 PM »

.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 06:08:55 PM by Al Jardine: TheDickup Artist » Logged
the captain
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« Reply #179 on: July 09, 2014, 04:21:48 PM »

Error corrected.
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« Reply #180 on: July 10, 2014, 10:02:46 AM »

Great response, cap'n. You're right in that Brian's harmonies and arrangements could be quite jazzy. That said, I think when you listen to a song like "Heroes and Villains", the movement of the vocal arrangement against the repetitive musical backing is very Bach IMO.  Maybe it's fairer to say that you could trace a direct link from Bach to certain elements of Brian's musical palette. Part of Brian's genius was his ability to mix pop, jazz, and classical, rather than pigeonholing himself into a single genre. I certainly won't deny that you can link other elements of Brian's music to someone like Ellington.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 10:03:56 AM by Mr. Cohen » Logged
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« Reply #181 on: July 10, 2014, 01:49:05 PM »

4th, like LPR, has this wavy background sound (sounds like a lot of pianos or something)

how did they record and produce that? Perhaps Stephen Desper might know?

DW recorded that at half speed, then played it back at normal speed*, according to the Ultimate Christmas liners.

[* or possibly the other way around]
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« Reply #182 on: July 16, 2014, 05:21:29 AM »

   My current custom SURF'S UP slots "WIBNTLA" as the coda after the title song. "4th of July" maybe between "Disney Girls" and "SDT"?

Yeah, I could see "Fourth" going there, as well.

So...

01.   Don’t Go Near The Water
02.   Long Promised Road
03.   Take A Load Off Your Feet
04.   Lady
05.   Disney Girls (1957)
06.   Student Demonstration Time
07.   Fourth of July
08.   Feel Flows
09.   Lookin’ At Tomorrow (A Welfare Song)
10.   Big Sur
11.   A Day In The Life Of A Tree
12.   (Wouldn‘t It Be Nice) To Live Again     
13.    Til I Die
14.   Surf’s Up 

Or wibntla after Til I Die?
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« Reply #183 on: July 16, 2014, 07:51:32 AM »

Captain, thanks for the great post just above (i won't quote it in full) Smiley

Do you have an opinion on Thelonious Monk? He's my favourite jazz musician (and the furthest beyond that totally subjective line called 'genius'), and, though i have no formal training in music, he strikes me as 'mathematical', working out logical puzzles in his music. If you'll allow the oversimplification, a meeting point between Bach and Ellington.

I have read Robin D.G. Kelley's excellent Monk bio, and he discusses quite a bit of chord theory, how Monk would spend hours working out how to write tunes using chords containing only seconds and ninths, and pretty much 'imply' the entire chord.
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« Reply #184 on: July 16, 2014, 10:49:15 AM »

i have a small but growing Jazz collection, where would be a good place to start with Thelonious Monk?
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« Reply #185 on: July 16, 2014, 10:56:57 AM »

i have a small but growing Jazz collection, where would be a good place to start with Thelonious Monk?
If you have a small collection, you've already started. What do you already like? Go to the next thing from that.
Oh, and when you reach Monk, add it all.
Explore. Make your own discoveries. Also, it's good to have listened to things you don't end up liking.
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« Reply #186 on: July 16, 2014, 12:09:17 PM »

i have a small but growing Jazz collection, where would be a good place to start with Thelonious Monk?

Thelonious Monk Quartet Live at the Five Spot: Discovery!

Blows my mind every time...
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« Reply #187 on: July 16, 2014, 12:23:00 PM »

I consider Thelonious Monk the greatest musical genius of them all.

I recommend all of his 50s recordings. His Columbia albums from the 60s are great, but they're largely re-recordings of songs he'd written in the 50s and earlier... although Monk's Dream is a favorite.

other favorites:
Genius of Modern Music 1 & 2 (vol. 1 was recorded in 1947)
Thelonious Monk Trio
Thelonious Monk & Sonny Rollins
Brilliant Corners
Monk's Music
Thelonious Monk with John Coltrane

also Monk and Coltrane Live at Carnegie Hall, recorded in 1957 but never released until 2005. superb!


I love how a thread about the song 4th of July has morphed into a discussion on Monk!  Smokin
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 12:24:11 PM by bossaroo » Logged
Loaf
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« Reply #188 on: July 16, 2014, 01:33:46 PM »

I consider Thelonious Monk the greatest musical genius of them all.

I recommend all of his 50s recordings. His Columbia albums from the 60s are great, but they're largely re-recordings of songs he'd written in the 50s and earlier... although Monk's Dream is a favorite.

other favorites:
Genius of Modern Music 1 & 2 (vol. 1 was recorded in 1947)
Thelonious Monk Trio
Thelonious Monk & Sonny Rollins
Brilliant Corners
Monk's Music
Thelonious Monk with John Coltrane

also Monk and Coltrane Live at Carnegie Hall, recorded in 1957 but never released until 2005. superb!


I love how a thread about the song 4th of July has morphed into a discussion on Monk!  Smokin


I'd say any of these are a great place to start. My personal favourite of them is …Trio. I love the versions of Blue Monk and Nutty.

I'll also add Solo Monk. He recorded 3 solo piano albums and this is the best, the most adventurous, humorous, funky. It's pure undiluted Thelonious. For a taster, check out his off-centre take on Dinah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKAMNaGO5Y4

I've played some of his stuff where i work and people (those lacking musical taste) complained he couldn't play. That's like saying Picasso couldn't draw because the eyes look wonky.

i'm glad there's other Monk fans on this board Smiley
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 01:34:52 PM by Loaf » Logged
alf wiedersehen
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« Reply #189 on: July 16, 2014, 01:45:19 PM »

I've also been trying to get into Thelonious Monk.
I've listened to his album of Ellington covers which was mostly good, but I felt like the songs went on for too long. I think it could have been a much tighter album.
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« Reply #190 on: July 16, 2014, 01:47:48 PM »

I like those four LP Jazz comps from the 1970s.
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« Reply #191 on: July 16, 2014, 01:59:10 PM »

I've also been trying to get into Thelonious Monk.
I've listened to his album of Ellington covers which was mostly good, but I felt like the songs went on for too long. I think it could have been a much tighter album.

I love the 'Thelonious Monk with John Coltrane' album. Check that out sometime.
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« Reply #192 on: July 16, 2014, 07:54:02 PM »

Loaf, thanks for the nice words. I love Thelonious Monk, and absolutely believe he's among the half-dozen most important American musicians ever.

As to what of his I'd recommend, I second bossaroo on Thelonious Monk & Sonny Rollins, Brilliant Corners, ...with John Coltrane. I'd add his Ellington covers album and his album with Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers. But he's pretty fantastic, anywhere you start is a good place to start. Like many of the greats, wherever you begin, there is somewhere to go beyond that and you'll learn from (and enjoy) it.

Maybe I'll build some ambition and start a Monk thread in the General Music forum.  Not tonight though.
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« Reply #193 on: July 16, 2014, 08:44:35 PM »

I see definite parallels between Monk and Brian.

both are considered geniuses, with a complex and unique understanding of chords, harmony, and the keyboard.

both are considered "eccentric" (even a little crazy) and child-like to a certain degree.
both suffered from mental illness but were actually more "normal" than a lot of people think.

both were committed and possibly given electro-shock therapy.
both were prescribed thorazine and subsequently became much less prolific.

both retreated from playing and from the spotlight. Monk never to return.



could you imagine a Brian Wilson vocal arrangement of 'Round Midnight or Ruby My Dear?  Transcendental Meditation
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 11:57:40 AM by bossaroo » Logged
the captain
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« Reply #194 on: July 18, 2014, 08:00:42 AM »

To let this topic live out its days on topic while Monk fans (or those curious) go that way, I've begun a Monk thread here:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,17917.msg462863.html#new
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