Do you prefer SMiLE as a 3 movements piece or as 12-14 tracks?

[Summertime Blooz]

Hello everyone! Big Beach Boys fan, been a lurker for a while. I likely won't post too often, but I figured I should have an account anyways just in case.

With that out the way, if you listen to "My Only Sunshine Pts. 1 & 2" outtake on The Smile Sessions, near the end you can hear Brian say "This is the big finale".

Could it be that My Only Sunshine was intended as the album closer? Also I find it interesting that was listed as the last track on the infamous Capitol letter (though I do question the letter at times). Also makes me wonder where Surf's Up goes.

Thoughts? I'm sure it's been discussed, but I have yet to find anything on it.

I agree with this. OMP + YWMS + Barnshine= OMP.  The end of the album. Done. Print it. Big Finale- BDW said it himself. It's on the list to Capitol as being last. Surf's Up (without CIFOTM ending) probably follows H &V just like the list says.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Hello everyone! Big Beach Boys fan, been a lurker for a while. I likely won't post too often, but I figured I should have an account anyways just in case.

With that out the way, if you listen to "My Only Sunshine Pts. 1 & 2" outtake on The Smile Sessions, near the end you can hear Brian say "This is the big finale".

Could it be that My Only Sunshine was intended as the album closer? Also I find it interesting that was listed as the last track on the infamous Capitol letter (though I do question the letter at times). Also makes me wonder where Surf's Up goes.

Thoughts? I'm sure it's been discussed, but I have yet to find anything on it.

I agree with this. OMP + YWMS + Barnshine= OMP.  The end of the album. Done. Print it. Big Finale- BDW said it himself. It's on the list to Capitol as being last. Surf's Up (without CIFOTM ending) probably follows H &V just like the list says.

Would you be interested in sharing a resequencing ?

I agree, Surfs Up in 67 is without the CIFOTM vocals. Maybe if my theory of the wailing sounding parts of Talking Horns playing over Brians "ahhs" is right, that could be a cool transition or buttend to the horn intro to H&V.

Just curious, but do you follow the Tracklisting from January completely? Would you place Prayer before Worms too, in that case?

[alf wiedersehen]

Brian wasn't being very considerate to others at this point.

I wonder if the whole "genius" thing that was being bandied about in the press got to his head.

[Rocket]

Hello everyone! Big Beach Boys fan, been a lurker for a while. I likely won't post too often, but I figured I should have an account anyways just in case.

With that out the way, if you listen to "My Only Sunshine Pts. 1 & 2" outtake on The Smile Sessions, near the end you can hear Brian say "This is the big finale".

Could it be that My Only Sunshine was intended as the album closer? Also I find it interesting that was listed as the last track on the infamous Capitol letter (though I do question the letter at times). Also makes me wonder where Surf's Up goes.

Thoughts? I'm sure it's been discussed, but I have yet to find anything on it.

I agree with this. OMP + YWMS + Barnshine= OMP.  The end of the album. Done. Print it. Big Finale- BDW said it himself. It's on the list to Capitol as being last. Surf's Up (without CIFOTM ending) probably follows H &V just like the list says.

Would you be interested in sharing a resequencing ?

I agree, Surfs Up in 67 is without the CIFOTM vocals. Maybe if my theory of the wailing sounding parts of Talking Horns playing over Brians "ahhs" is right, that could be a cool transition or buttend to the horn intro to H&V.

Just curious, but do you follow the Tracklisting from January completely? Would you place Prayer before Worms too, in that case?

An official tracklist in January? Or is this your sequencing from what had been done up to that point?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Brian wasn't being very considerate to others at this point.

I wonder if the whole "genius" thing that was being bandied about in the press got to his head.

Possibly. It'd probably go to mine. It's a lot of pressure to live up to, he realizes Mike's not up to snuff, his anxiety and/or inability to handle "business matters" perhaps frustrated with a collaborator who challenged his ideas (and, I'd argue, improved them as a result) it was just too much at once. He didn't think he could or didn't want to be God/genius/a rival to the Beatles, Zappa and Dylan. He saw what it was doing to him, how he wasn't enjoying it anymore...

Ironically, he was way ahead of the Beatles and equivalent to Dylan by going "Back to Basics" in Smiley and the Basement Tapes at roughly the same time. I feel like what makes Smiley so unique in the world of music is it was psychedelic arrangements played in simplictic arrangements but very warm, well meaning and honest. Not any kind of punk rock or garage band, more of a gathering around the piano room and express ourselves warts and all style.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Hello everyone! Big Beach Boys fan, been a lurker for a while. I likely won't post too often, but I figured I should have an account anyways just in case.

With that out the way, if you listen to "My Only Sunshine Pts. 1 & 2" outtake on The Smile Sessions, near the end you can hear Brian say "This is the big finale".

Could it be that My Only Sunshine was intended as the album closer? Also I find it interesting that was listed as the last track on the infamous Capitol letter (though I do question the letter at times). Also makes me wonder where Surf's Up goes.

Thoughts? I'm sure it's been discussed, but I have yet to find anything on it.

I agree with this. OMP + YWMS + Barnshine= OMP.  The end of the album. Done. Print it. Big Finale- BDW said it himself. It's on the list to Capitol as being last. Surf's Up (without CIFOTM ending) probably follows H &V just like the list says.

Would you be interested in sharing a resequencing ?

I agree, Surfs Up in 67 is without the CIFOTM vocals. Maybe if my theory of the wailing sounding parts of Talking Horns playing over Brians "ahhs" is right, that could be a cool transition or buttend to the horn intro to H&V.

Just curious, but do you follow the Tracklisting from January completely? Would you place Prayer before Worms too, in that case?

An official tracklist in January? Or is this your sequencing from what had been done up to that point?

I mean the infamous note delivered to Capitol and printed on the back cover.

[Summertime Blooz]

Hello everyone! Big Beach Boys fan, been a lurker for a while. I likely won't post too often, but I figured I should have an account anyways just in case.

With that out the way, if you listen to "My Only Sunshine Pts. 1 & 2" outtake on The Smile Sessions, near the end you can hear Brian say "This is the big finale".

Could it be that My Only Sunshine was intended as the album closer? Also I find it interesting that was listed as the last track on the infamous Capitol letter (though I do question the letter at times). Also makes me wonder where Surf's Up goes.

Thoughts? I'm sure it's been discussed, but I have yet to find anything on it.

I agree with this. OMP + YWMS + Barnshine= OMP.  The end of the album. Done. Print it. Big Finale- BDW said it himself. It's on the list to Capitol as being last. Surf's Up (without CIFOTM ending) probably follows H &V just like the list says.

Would you be interested in sharing a resequencing ?

I agree, Surfs Up in 67 is without the CIFOTM vocals. Maybe if my theory of the wailing sounding parts of Talking Horns playing over Brians "ahhs" is right, that could be a cool transition or buttend to the horn intro to H&V.

Just curious, but do you follow the Tracklisting from January completely? Would you place Prayer before Worms too, in that case?

I posted my preferred sequence earlier in this thread. It goes something like this:

Side 1
(Prayer)
1)Worms (with insert of Holidays a la BWPS' On A Holiday)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWCh80PqEes
2)H&V (a 5:46 Cantina version)
(George Fell Into His French Horn)
3)Surf's Up
4)Good Vibrations
5)Cabin Essence

Side 2
(He Gives Speeches)
1)Wonderful
2)CIFOTM (comprised of Look/CIFOTM)
3)Wind Chimes
4)The Elements ( comprised of Second Day-Air/Mrs, O'Leary-Fire/Dada-Water/IWBA & Workshop- Earth
(Brian Falls Into A Piano)
5)Vege-Tables
(H&V Reprise)
6)IIGS (comprised of IIGS/Barnyard/Do A Lot)
7)The Old Master Painter (comprised of TOMP/YWMS/My Children Were Raised/Barnshine)

So, no, it doesn't follow the memo sequencing exactly. It's close, but not exact. Wind Chimes moves to after CIFOTM on Side 2 and IIGS moves to after Vege-Tables. Then of course there's the 5 short unlisted tracks that are fun to hear.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Hello everyone! Big Beach Boys fan, been a lurker for a while. I likely won't post too often, but I figured I should have an account anyways just in case.

With that out the way, if you listen to "My Only Sunshine Pts. 1 & 2" outtake on The Smile Sessions, near the end you can hear Brian say "This is the big finale".

Could it be that My Only Sunshine was intended as the album closer? Also I find it interesting that was listed as the last track on the infamous Capitol letter (though I do question the letter at times). Also makes me wonder where Surf's Up goes.

Thoughts? I'm sure it's been discussed, but I have yet to find anything on it.

I agree with this. OMP + YWMS + Barnshine= OMP.  The end of the album. Done. Print it. Big Finale- BDW said it himself. It's on the list to Capitol as being last. Surf's Up (without CIFOTM ending) probably follows H &V just like the list says.

Would you be interested in sharing a resequencing ?

I agree, Surfs Up in 67 is without the CIFOTM vocals. Maybe if my theory of the wailing sounding parts of Talking Horns playing over Brians "ahhs" is right, that could be a cool transition or buttend to the horn intro to H&V.

Just curious, but do you follow the Tracklisting from January completely? Would you place Prayer before Worms too, in that case?

I posted my preferred sequence earlier in this thread. It goes something like this:

Side 1
(Prayer)
1)Worms (with insert of Holidays a la BWPS' On A Holiday)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWCh80PqEes
2)H&V (a 5:46 Cantina version)
(George Fell Into His French Horn)
3)Surf's Up
4)Good Vibrations
5)Cabin Essence

Side 2
(He Gives Speeches)
1)Wonderful
2)CIFOTM (comprised of Look/CIFOTM)
3)Wind Chimes
4)The Elements ( comprised of Second Day-Air/Mrs, O'Leary-Fire/Dada-Water/IWBA & Workshop- Earth
(Brian Falls Into A Piano)
5)Vege-Tables
(H&V Reprise)
6)IIGS (comprised of IIGS/Barnyard/Do A Lot)
7)The Old Master Painter (comprised of TOMP/YWMS/My Children Were Raised/Barnshine)

So, no, it doesn't follow the memo sequencing exactly. It's close, but not exact. Wind Chimes moves to after CIFOTM on Side 2 and IIGS moves to after Vege-Tables. Then of course there's the 5 short unlisted tracks that are fun to hear.

I like this a lot. My apologies for not remembering from earlier. Would you be interested in sharing?

[Rocket]

Hello everyone! Big Beach Boys fan, been a lurker for a while. I likely won't post too often, but I figured I should have an account anyways just in case.

With that out the way, if you listen to "My Only Sunshine Pts. 1 & 2" outtake on The Smile Sessions, near the end you can hear Brian say "This is the big finale".

Could it be that My Only Sunshine was intended as the album closer? Also I find it interesting that was listed as the last track on the infamous Capitol letter (though I do question the letter at times). Also makes me wonder where Surf's Up goes.

Thoughts? I'm sure it's been discussed, but I have yet to find anything on it.

I agree with this. OMP + YWMS + Barnshine= OMP.  The end of the album. Done. Print it. Big Finale- BDW said it himself. It's on the list to Capitol as being last. Surf's Up (without CIFOTM ending) probably follows H &V just like the list says.

Would you be interested in sharing a resequencing ?

I agree, Surfs Up in 67 is without the CIFOTM vocals. Maybe if my theory of the wailing sounding parts of Talking Horns playing over Brians "ahhs" is right, that could be a cool transition or buttend to the horn intro to H&V.

Just curious, but do you follow the Tracklisting from January completely? Would you place Prayer before Worms too, in that case?

I posted my preferred sequence earlier in this thread. It goes something like this:

Side 1
(Prayer)
1)Worms (with insert of Holidays a la BWPS' On A Holiday)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWCh80PqEes
2)H&V (a 5:46 Cantina version)
(George Fell Into His French Horn)
3)Surf's Up
4)Good Vibrations
5)Cabin Essence

Side 2
(He Gives Speeches)
1)Wonderful
2)CIFOTM (comprised of Look/CIFOTM)
3)Wind Chimes
4)The Elements ( comprised of Second Day-Air/Mrs, O'Leary-Fire/Dada-Water/IWBA & Workshop- Earth
(Brian Falls Into A Piano)
5)Vege-Tables
(H&V Reprise)
6)IIGS (comprised of IIGS/Barnyard/Do A Lot)
7)The Old Master Painter (comprised of TOMP/YWMS/My Children Were Raised/Barnshine)

So, no, it doesn't follow the memo sequencing exactly. It's close, but not exact. Wind Chimes moves to after CIFOTM on Side 2 and IIGS moves to after Vege-Tables. Then of course there's the 5 short unlisted tracks that are fun to hear.

What is Second Day? I see it around here a lot. Is it a section or an outtake?

[soniclovenoize]

What is Second Day? I see it around here a lot. Is it a section or an outtake?

"Second Day" is a Love To Say Dada (part 2) outtake session, that features a completely different instrumentation of the song.  It's on TSS, disc 4, track 13.  It's very "elemental".  It's the version with the chimes and flute flourishes in between the breakdowns. 

[The Demon]

What is Second Day? I see it around here a lot. Is it a section or an outtake?

They are referring to the track labeled "Love to Say Dada: Part 2 (Second Day)" on the Smile Sessions box.  It is referred to as "Second Day" in between takes.  It's worth noting, in regard to the "Dada"/water connection, that in Genesis the second day involves water.

[soniclovenoize]

They are referring to the track labeled "Love to Say Dada: Part 2 (Second Day)" on the Smile Sessions box.  It is referred to as "Second Day" in between takes.  It's worth noting, in regard to the "Dada"/water connection, that in Genesis the second day involves water.

And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

Well whattayaknow! 

[Cam Mott]

He already knows it will have 12 songs including GV and he is also putting the writing of the 12 songs in the past.

I never thought about the fact that Brian states that “I’ve written them all” past tense, but you’re right. That also matches what Van Dyke said about never having heard “fire” before because by that time (November 28) he was no longer attending sessions because his part of the project (the lyrics) were done and we know that by early December he was already taking other projects. It seems like at the time of this article Brian was just waiting for the guys to come back from tour to do the vocals, and every session in December, except that one lost Heroes string date on Dec 19, is a vocal session. At the point of this interview, Smile is still set for a pre Christmas release and would not be officially pushed to 1967 until the memo on December 18.

And; something to think about with the date being push to January, there is that Capitol memo from December 8, 1966, the Purchase Order for 100,000 booklets, “to be finished by 1/3/67” and the booklet Proof was sent to two printers on December 19 for 400,000 booklets to be received 1/3/67 and 1/6/67. So for the question as to why Smile was pushed back to January 1967, because that’s when the booklets would arrive. Even if the music was done he had to wait on the covers and booklets. That also matches up with the planned album release date of the week of January 15th, gives Capitol a week ( the 6th to the 15th) to assemble and ship the record, booklet and cover.

This period around Mid-November is the last time we can put VDP and Brian together until late February I believe. Brian implies the songs are written. Earlier in November he told Humble Harv "they" were still working.

Would this Mid-November period also then be the time Siegel refers to as when VDP left the first time, tired of Brian's dominance? That suggests the two collaborators were having problems between them even before this mid-November period while they are writing the songs. This is before the Boys come back from England.

Vosse implies Brian and Van Dyke were writing well together then they were not but he has also suggested they were still collaborating right through H&V.

Anderle also claims they worked well at first and then very much not and their split around February was the main problem for the album.

This might all be baloney but I think there is a lot left to explore in the relationship between the collaborators back then.

No the last time we can put Brian and Van Dyke together is not mid-November, it’s at the Crow cries session, that was after the Beach Boys came back from tour after November 24th, with the first vocal session in December (I think for My Only Sunshine, maybe on the 2nd).

Siegel is writing from the point of view of early 1967. The paragraph preceding the one mentioning Van Dyke leaving starts with, “As 1967 opened it seems as though Brian and the Beach Boys were assured of a new world of success; yet something was going wrong.” Then the next paragraph is, “Van Dyke Parks had left and come back and would leave again, tired of being constantly dominated by Brian.”

Van Dyke is on the session contract for January 5, 1967 and there are pictures of him in the studio with Brian dated January 6, 1967. Van’s record contract was signed, if I’m remembering right, on January 6. He is heard on sessions in mid and late January, Mid February (Prelude to Fade one on them) and is playing on  sessions at the very end of February to the first or second of March, then nothing after that. 

So Parks is gone the first time in early December (kicked of the project over the lyrics) , called back by Brian by January 5th and is “around” after that through the start of March then making himself unavailable due to working on his own album.

My understanding is that Van Dyke is still working on Smile through all of November, the main part of his work of writing lyrics is done so he is no longer around all the time but still able to be called in for help as needed by Brian. That’s what happens when Brian calls him down to the Beach Boys vocal session to explain his lyrics. The most likely date for that session is December 6.

I agree that the relationship between Brian and Van Dyke really could be explored a lot more. Vosse talks about how Brian would push Van around just because he could. It seems like in ’66 Van was at the mercy of Brian Wilson, looking for his big break, but once he had his own record contract in ’67 Van Dyke eventually decided he didn’t have to put up with Brian anymore (being dominated) and stopped working on Smile and only on his own album.

Of course we also know that in March, according to Vosse and news reports, Brian had created a Heroes mix, possibly 5 minutes long so it seems like maybe Van stopped showing up in March at first because Brian was done with him. But when Brian went back to work on the rest of the Smile songs (late March early April) Van was deep into doing Song Cycle and wouldn’t come back to work with Brian, so Brian had no choice but to dump it all and start over. Keep the stuff he thought worked but write a bunch of new songs to fill out a new album. That Mike Love interview from July ’67 mentions that “We knew the songs months ago” but that Brian was “going through the tapes again.” So we got Smiley Smile.

Yep, I shouldn't have shot from the hip on that. I'm thinking VDP was around and involved more than Asher had been in PS.

Now I call foul on it being documented that VDP was at a CE vocal session, that seems like speculation or presumption. What can he be documented at though and when. Wrote together, lived with Brian and Marilyn for some period, at several sessions. Was he at the CBS taping/session? 

[Summertime Blooz]

They are referring to the track labeled "Love to Say Dada: Part 2 (Second Day)" on the Smile Sessions box.  It is referred to as "Second Day" in between takes.  It's worth noting, in regard to the "Dada"/water connection, that in Genesis the second day involves water.

And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

Well whattayaknow!  

I floated this theory a couple of years ago, but it never got much traction back then. Here's what I posted:

It occurred to me today looking at the sessionography for TSS box that maybe the title for LTSDD  Part 2 (Second Day) had some special significance. I always assumed it just meant the second day of sessions for LTSDD, but what if that is not the proper interpretation? 5/18/67 was actually the third day of sessions for LTSDD, although it was the second day for LTSDD Part 2. But why is the session labeled this way? I don't see anything else in the sessionography notated as Second Day or Third Day etc. We do know that at one point in December LTSDD was being labeled as 'All Day'. Not being a Bible reader, I thought I would check out how the Second Day fits into the story of the 7 Days of Creation, and found out that it was on the Second Day that God created the sky. I wonder now if LTSDD Part 2 (Second Day) was intended to be  it's own thing, separate from the standard issue LTSDD. If sky might be considered to equal Air, I think it does give extra mileage to the theory that LTSDD Part 2 (Second Day) was indeed intended for The Elements as Air. There was a session scheduled for 5/19/67 (vocals  for Second Day perhaps?) that was canceled. Am I reading too much into this, or do you think there might be something to this theory?

And then this post:

Just to follow up on this wild-eyed idea of mine, I offer the following quote from BW about the Air element (which I know most of us have read before):
“Yeah. There was a cut-a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals-we never finished that.”
-Brian Wilson (“The Beach Boys” by Byron Preiss. 1979)

So they "never finished that", implying that it was started. Remember that they canceled the session for the day after  LTSDD (Second Day) was recorded. Was Brian going to finish Second Day at that session, but never got around to it because the session was canceled? Could it be that the mysterious "piano piece" has been hiding in plain sight all this time?

[alf wiedersehen]

The shrill flute at the end also makes for a good transition into the whistle that starts off "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow".

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

Could it be that the mysterious "piano piece" has been hiding in plain sight all this time?

Genius!


WHAT THE HELL ARE EARTH AND WATER??!?!!?!?

[alf wiedersehen]

Could it be that the mysterious "piano piece" has been hiding in plain sight all this time?

Genius!


WHAT THE HELL ARE EARTH AND WATER??!?!!?!?

What do you suppose part 1 is?

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

Good on ya!

[soniclovenoize]

I floated this theory a couple of years ago, but it never got much traction back then. Here's what I posted:

It occurred to me today looking at the sessionography for TSS box that maybe the title for LTSDD  Part 2 (Second Day) had some special significance. I always assumed it just meant the second day of sessions for LTSDD, but what if that is not the proper interpretation? 5/18/67 was actually the third day of sessions for LTSDD, although it was the second day for LTSDD Part 2. But why is the session labeled this way? I don't see anything else in the sessionography notated as Second Day or Third Day etc. We do know that at one point in December LTSDD was being labeled as 'All Day'. Not being a Bible reader, I thought I would check out how the Second Day fits into the story of the 7 Days of Creation, and found out that it was on the Second Day that God created the sky. I wonder now if LTSDD Part 2 (Second Day) was intended to be  it's own thing, separate from the standard issue LTSDD. If sky might be considered to equal Air, I think it does give extra mileage to the theory that LTSDD Part 2 (Second Day) was indeed intended for The Elements as Air. There was a session scheduled for 5/19/67 (vocals  for Second Day perhaps?) that was canceled. Am I reading too much into this, or do you think there might be something to this theory?

And then this post:

Just to follow up on this wild-eyed idea of mine, I offer the following quote from BW about the Air element (which I know most of us have read before):
“Yeah. There was a cut-a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals-we never finished that.”
-Brian Wilson (“The Beach Boys” by Byron Preiss. 1979)

So they "never finished that", implying that it was started. Remember that they canceled the session for the day after  LTSDD (Second Day) was recorded. Was Brian going to finish Second Day at that session, but never got around to it because the session was canceled? Could it be that the mysterious "piano piece" has been hiding in plain sight all this time?

OK now we're cooking!  Two things though:

1) According to that Bible passage I just posted about the Second Day, God creates both air and water.  So we can't say that it is specifically Air, because if we are looking at Genesis as evidence, there's 50% chance of it being water and 50% of it being air.  Now, keep in mind that this song eventually became Cool Cool Water (a connection that puts Water above Air) and then was specifically called out to be the Water section in BWPS (another edge above Air).  Neither is conclusive of course, but how I look at SMiLE is by the probability--nothing is for sure this or that.  But we can look at the probability of it being this or that. 

2) That BW quote suggests that this illusive Air track was just piano, nothing else.  So that excludes all of the May Dada sessions, because there was pretty thorough instrumentation, especially on Second Day.


But this thread made me go back and try to make a new SMiLE mix based off the Capitol list, and in doing so I made a new Elements exclusively for it.  This new elements uses pieces of all four Dada sessions strung together between each breakdown, so each section sounds different.  And you know what occurred to me?  That Part 1, with all the heavy percussion sounds like rocks and boulders and pebbles...  the pieces of Part 2 sound like water trickling down a spring, and that Second Day, as you observed, reminds me of things blowing in the wind.  In a way, if all four sessions are but together, it's almost like all three remaining elements are in one song.

So that got me thinking: what if we are looking at The Elements wrong?  What if there isn't a rigid set of rules that there must be four separate musical pieces for each element, making a 4-part suite.  And instead The Elements is a longer pieces with musical motifs contained within it that elaborate on the four elements and how they interact with eachother, how they are circular...

The shrill flute at the end also makes for a good transition into the whistle that starts off "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow".

Also it transitions into the 'Whispering Winds' segment from the Smiley Smile Wind Chimes...  

[alf wiedersehen]

1) According to that Bible passage I just posted about the Second Day, God creates both air and water.  So we can't say that it is specifically Air, because if we are looking at Genesis as evidence, there's 50% chance of it being water and 50% of it being air.  Now, keep in mind that this song eventually became Cool Cool Water (a connection that puts Water above Air) and then was specifically called out to be the Water section in BWPS (another edge above Air).  Neither is conclusive of course, but how I look at SMiLE is by the probability--nothing is for sure this or that.  But we can look at the probability of it being this or that. 

I wouldn't necessarily put water ahead of air just because of what a certain part of it turned into. The part that's being cited as air didn't evolve any further after Smile was put off and wasn't part of "Cool, Cool Water" as far as I know. But, like you say below...

But this thread made me go back and try to make a new SMiLE mix based off the Capitol list, and in doing so I made a new Elements exclusively for it.  This new elements uses pieces of all four Dada sessions strung together between each breakdown, so each section sounds different.  And you know what occurred to me?  That Part 1, with all the heavy percussion sounds like rocks and boulders and pebbles...  the pieces of Part 2 sound like water trickling down a spring, and that Second Day, as you observed, reminds me of things blowing in the wind.  In a way, if all four sessions are but together, it's almost like all three remaining elements are in one song.

It certainly does seem like all the parts work together. Part 1 has the percussion and castanet-type thing that sort of sounds like it could be rocks, part 2 has that melody that moves through it and something that could sound like droplets landing, and part three has what sounds like air with the flutes. So, it almost seems like you could edit together a section from each piece into one, collective "Dada." Then you just gotta put "Fire" somewhere.

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

Sonic,

Listening to your Super H&V today (fun but exhausting) had me thinking about the two versions of "Intro to" that you included early on. Given their eventual connection to Fire, I thought about their use in a way similar to what you just described regarding reprisals of the Dada variations. Friggin' Smile, right?

Jus' saying.

[soniclovenoize]

Sonic,

Listening to your Super H&V today (fun but exhausting) had me thinking about the two versions of "Intro to" that you included early on. Given their eventual connection to Fire, I thought about their use in a way similar to what you just described regarding reprisals of the Dada variations. Friggin' Smile, right?

Jus' saying.

Oh thanks! 

I was actually going to mention that, and it occurred to me that if you listen to a) Mrs O'Leary's Cow, then b) the series of HV Intros and then c) Fall Breaks and Back To Winter, it's all the evolution of the same piece.  The song began life as the Fire Element.  After BW perceived it as a failure and actually causing flash fires, it was shelved and rewritten to be an intro to H&V a month later, rewritten and revised again to modulate from Ab to E for the Do A Lot chorus (which I mimicked in my Super H&V), then revised again three months later for an intro to a revised H&V, and then finally revised on Smiley Smile as Fall breaks.  That would explain why the piece was "mistakenly" called Fire Intro which was perpetuated to this day even on BWPS--because it was/i] Fire at some point in time. 

Also, I must have seen someone pre-edit, asking about which Dada piece was which.  Both Part 1 and part 2 were demo'd as All day during the H&V Sessions, although the performance seemed more disjointed and unrehearsed.  By May BW had figured it out and was tight.  Then one of those singular sections from Part 2 became Cool Cool Water, not the entire Dada Part 1 and 2. 

[alf wiedersehen]

It certainly does seem like all the parts work together. Part 1 has the percussion and castanet-type thing that sort of sounds like it could be rocks, part 2 has that melody that moves through it and something that could sound like droplets landing, and part three has what sounds like air with the flutes. So, it almost seems like you could edit together a section from each piece into one, collective "Dada." Then you just gotta put "Fire" somewhere.

This is a rough, quick edit, but something like this:
http://www32.zippyshare.com/v/28841782/file.html

[Summertime Blooz]

But this thread made me go back and try to make a new SMiLE mix based off the Capitol list, and in doing so I made a new Elements exclusively for it.  This new elements uses pieces of all four Dada sessions strung together between each breakdown, so each section sounds different.  And you know what occurred to me?  That Part 1, with all the heavy percussion sounds like rocks and boulders and pebbles...  the pieces of Part 2 sound like water trickling down a spring, and that Second Day, as you observed, reminds me of things blowing in the wind.  In a way, if all four sessions are but together, it's almost like all three remaining elements are in one song.

So that got me thinking: what if we are looking at The Elements wrong?  What if there isn't a rigid set of rules that there must be four separate musical pieces for each element, making a 4-part suite.  And instead The Elements is a longer pieces with musical motifs contained within it that elaborate on the four elements and how they interact with eachother, how they are circular...

I can't say I agree with this idea, but I'd still like to hear what you've done.

To me, LTSDD Part 1  has always suggested a rolling river, cut from the same cloth as the "great big river" section of 'Rio Grande' from BW88. To my ears, the two are quite similar in feel. I don't really hear Earth in there at all.

 Now, to me LTSDD Part 2 suggests raindrops, at first starting slow, then building into a full rain shower, but I can hear your "water trickling down a spring" description as being apt also

For me, I Wanna Be Around/Workshop IS Earth. The "rebuilding after the fire" and all just seems so right (regardless of the source). Plus IWBA just sounds like Earth. I don't think I would ever be convinced it's not Earth unless  BW knocked on my door and told me otherwise.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

They are referring to the track labeled "Love to Say Dada: Part 2 (Second Day)" on the Smile Sessions box.  It is referred to as "Second Day" in between takes.  It's worth noting, in regard to the "Dada"/water connection, that in Genesis the second day involves water.

And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

Well whattayaknow!  

I floated this theory a couple of years ago, but it never got much traction back then. Here's what I posted:

It occurred to me today looking at the sessionography for TSS box that maybe the title for LTSDD  Part 2 (Second Day) had some special significance. I always assumed it just meant the second day of sessions for LTSDD, but what if that is not the proper interpretation? 5/18/67 was actually the third day of sessions for LTSDD, although it was the second day for LTSDD Part 2. But why is the session labeled this way? I don't see anything else in the sessionography notated as Second Day or Third Day etc. We do know that at one point in December LTSDD was being labeled as 'All Day'. Not being a Bible reader, I thought I would check out how the Second Day fits into the story of the 7 Days of Creation, and found out that it was on the Second Day that God created the sky. I wonder now if LTSDD Part 2 (Second Day) was intended to be  it's own thing, separate from the standard issue LTSDD. If sky might be considered to equal Air, I think it does give extra mileage to the theory that LTSDD Part 2 (Second Day) was indeed intended for The Elements as Air. There was a session scheduled for 5/19/67 (vocals  for Second Day perhaps?) that was canceled. Am I reading too much into this, or do you think there might be something to this theory?

And then this post:

Just to follow up on this wild-eyed idea of mine, I offer the following quote from BW about the Air element (which I know most of us have read before):
“Yeah. There was a cut-a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals-we never finished that.”
-Brian Wilson (“The Beach Boys” by Byron Preiss. 1979)

So they "never finished that", implying that it was started. Remember that they canceled the session for the day after  LTSDD (Second Day) was recorded. Was Brian going to finish Second Day at that session, but never got around to it because the session was canceled? Could it be that the mysterious "piano piece" has been hiding in plain sight all this time?

For what it's worth, even though I've given up on finding out what "the elements" was, and I think it'd be best if others do the same, I always thought the Second Day/Air Dada theory of yours was pretty cool, and well thought out. I think Second Day is a much better track title than Love to Say Dada or Cool Cool Water, though I hate to lose the LSD initials you get from using Dada as a title.

Again, quoting AGD from memory here so forgive me if this is wrong, but hasn't he stated that someone (I forget who, sorry --maybe AGD himself can step in to clarify?) told him Fall Breaks was Earth. Another poster built on that and suggested that the elements would be two variations of two different themes. The two versions of Dada for Air and Water and Fire n Fall for Fire and Earth.

Personally, I think any reconstructed Elements suite sounds...not very good. And it's all conjecture really, since at the end of the day nothing was billed as part of The Elements except Cow, so it's silly to think Dada or anything else was definitely an element. I personally think Brian realized a four part suite with such drastic variations in mood wouldn't sound good, hence he dropped it. Maybe Dada's three parts were an attempt at reworking the idea. But then if we go by that, we're still missing Fire (and if you shoehorn Cow in, it sounds wildly out of place.)

Even though it's not a vintage 1966 idea, I think Mark (and later, Mok) did a great thing by fleshing out Fire into its own separate, standalone track. Following that standard is one of the few revisions of BWPS that I think actually strengthens the material. Dada works fine as a standalone too, especially with padding from the earlier CCW sessions. The original intent may have been to string them together, but they work way better separately, imo.