Van Dyke Parks: How Songwriters Are Getting Screwed

[rn57]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/04/van-dyke-parks-on-how-songwriters-are-getting-screwed-in-the-digital-age.html

Putting "dailybeast" in the Search box, I don't see any posts about this yet, so am posting it here. Although VDP doesn't bring up Smile this time around, what he has to say about the state of royalties in this age of streaming is worth reading - he expands on topics he's talked a lot about in interviews in the last few years.  It is pretty sobering to realize that a guy can nowadays make music with an actual Beatle and come out of it with an expectation of seeing no more money  than a dinner for two at the Outback Steakhouse would cost, minus the tip.  The comments are mostly worth reading too.

[Ron]

I dunno.  To be honest, I don't even get what the f*** he's rambling on about. 

He says that back in the day, if he wrote a song with Ringo starr, he'd be compensated with a house.  Now a days, they'll split 80 bucks.

Maybe a house, as compensation for two days work, is a little much?  Maybe he was being overpayed before?


It's always been lopsided, why should a guy like him get paid a small fortune for writing a tune (BTW, he wrote that blog for free... right?), and be done with it after 1 or 2 days work?

It only makes sense that a performer should make more money than a songwriter, because there's more effort and work involved.  Bernie Taupin writes a song, one time, then has Elton John tour the world for 40 years performing it, all the while giving Bernie a piece. 




Now i'm a big libertarian and capitalist, so I think VDP should get as much money as he possibly can, but complaining about it is a little bitchy.  He's often bitchy, so no big surprise there.

Hey VDP, instead of writing a shitty song with Ringo nobody likes, how about writing a GREAT song with Ringo, everybody likes, and see what the royalty ends up being on that one, eh?

[The Shift]

VDP, a guy I admire greatly, seems to be becoming a tad more cantankerous this last year or so. Is this just online?

[Lonely Summer]

If VDP had written a song with Ringo in 1973, it would've been on a hit album, possibly been played on mainstream radio, and sold a million or more copies. I love Ringo, but no one buys his albums these days. That is the major difference - and so it is for every major - or minor - pop or rock star of that generation today. Radio is still the primary - although not the only - vehicle to expose people to new music, and if they ain't playing it, you and i ain't buying it. Except for a few thousand diehards that will buy each and every gasp that artist utters.

[The Shift]

I do appreciate what Van Dyke alludes to about the similarities with journalism. Journalism is being undermined by a wave of bloggers, scribblers and hobbyists willing to write for nothing in return for online exposure or the thrill of having their name in print. All well and good, but experienced and qualified journalists, especially freelancers, are going going to the wall because of such practices. Part o it stems from the expectation in some minds that all web content should be free but at the same time online publishers are making a big buck without having to pay for raw material.

Bitter? Me? Maybe…

[rn57]

Well...VDP would definitely have been paid for the Daily Beast post. Though not as much if he were writing it for Billboard or the NY Times. I'd guess it was a few hundred bucks.  

One of the commenters at Daily Beast makes a useful point. Ringo is not pulling in the royalties he used to - especially because his self-written Beatles material and solo recordings are almost never licensed for commercials, which seems to be the major way to make money from old records now.  But Mr Shears still makes pretty durn good money on the road as a bandleader, and he tours a fair amount.  With tickets for his shows starting at $15 for lawn seats and going up to (well, I don't know if he does meet-and-greet so I don't know what that'd cost), he does rather better touring now, financially, than he did when the All-Starr Band started out.

Whereas VDP's gigs are often one-offs, and I'd be surprised if his guarantees in the States amount to more than a few thousand bucks - from which he has to deduct travel expenses, paying backing musicians, etc. He seems to make much better money in Europe but that's just for a couple weeks a year.  He does rely more on his records for income than Ringo does - especially since he transitioned out of soundtrack writing after the money got his kids through college.

[Ron]

His specific point is that corporations are taking a larger share of the money the songs earn.  I suppose he also would make the point that he has no say in that, they sign the contract with Spotify.


Valid Point.  Making a point that the music business is unfair, though, doesn't make much sense when the music business has always been unfair, and was unfair when he decided to play the game of working in the music business. 

Also, he's talking about a NEW song with Ringo; which he certainly could control the way it's marketed, who plays it, etc. 

... but yet he still apparently has chosen to do a song that will end up on Spotify. 

That's like going to dunkin donuts, buying donuts, then bitching that you don't like the way dunkin donuts does business.  Why are you in a dunkin donuts, then?

He wants the benefits of Spotify (huge audience, huge distribution, the traffic it drives to purchase your product online, name recognition of your brand, easy way to get your music out there, etc.) but wants to bitch about the negatives (low pay... compared to.... if it were transposed on a piano reel).

If he doesn't like the way Spotify does business, the other thing technology has done is made it possible to sell your music on your website, yourself, and keep ALL the money. 

Of course that would mean you'd have to promote it like spotify does... and market your individual songs like spotify does... and create and support the ap like spotify does...

and well, VDP doesn't want to do any of that.  He just wants to bitch while they bust their ass to make him money. 

[rn57]

http://priceonomics.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-book-your-favorite-band/

The above article lists guarantees for well over a thousand acts, ranging from a thousand bucks to a hundred grand - though, as the writer points out, this is a list circulated by an outfit specializing in brokering shows for colleges, and the assumption there is that the college people who want the act can be quoted top dollar and negotiate from there.  Some names on there get paid a lot more than you'd expect, some a lot less. But it does illustrate to what degree gigging is the prime source of income for bands and singers now.  

Back in the '70s, touring was profitable only if you were playing stadiums and big halls.  Musicians working clubs, if they had a recording contract, were usually doing that work not for the money - this was back when club covers were about two or three bucks - but to get press going, get radio play, get people buying the records, which is what would bring the real money in assuming the act had a halfway honest manager or accountant or had signed a decent deal.  Nowadays that's no longer the case.

[Ron]

I believe your point is that it's changed for the better... which in my opinion is a good thing. 

I think, all things equal, if you're performing live you should be getting paid more than you get paid for writing 1 song.  It takes more effort, and it's more of a job. 

That's the other thing about what VDP is saying, the song with Ringo will earn him money in other ways than the 80 bucks he'll make from Spotify.  3 years ago, he would have made the same money except he wouldn't have received the 80 bucks. 

WTF is he on about?

[rn57]

One thing about the old days - Van Dyke is right about a hit song being able to get you a house.  And it helped that real estate prices in LA or even NYC were a pittance compared to what they are now - and real estate in San Francisco back then sure was a pretty small fraction of what it's been ever since high tech came in.  Right to the end of the last century, writing a track on a hit album, whether it was a single or not, made you real money.  The first royalty check Alex Chilton got for the Bangles' cover of September Gurls was close to a hundred grand or something like that, which enabled him to retire from the hotel dishwashing business. (Or I think that was the amount, don't have Holly George-Warren's Chilton biography at hand.)  

[Ron]

“It's too late to be studying Hebrew; it's more important to understand even the slang of today.”
― Henry David Thoreau

[Andrew G. Doe]

I love Ringo, but no one buys his albums these days.

Fact is, if he'd not been Ringo, no-one would have bought his music anyway.

[The Shift]

I think, all things equal, if you're performing live you should be getting paid more than you get paid for writing 1 song.  It takes more effort, and it's more of a job. 

So should be earn the same for a sh*t song as for a classic?

Though I do actually like this socialist approach, which should see me getting paid more for a 2000-word feature involving several interviews and days-spent than, say, Bob Dylan would be paid for a repetitive 3-minute dirge knocked off in his lunch break.

Bring it on!

[rn57]

And too....it may be VDP has been thinking about his late brother Clarence Carson Parks again.  After VDP left the Greenwood County Singers and the ensemble split up, Carson recorded an album with his wife, mostly featuring his own material - he had written only a handful of songs before then. One song from the album, "Cab Driver," was recorded by the Mills Brothers and made the pop top 30, that venerable act's last big hit.

But the album also included the first version of "Somethin' Stupid."  Nowadays, VDP likes to tell a story that he personally sang his brother's tune - acapella - to Frank Sinatra while the latter was getting a massage, and that Ol' Blue Eyes then asked to hear the record and decided to cover it with Nancy. But Van Dyke, far as I can tell, didn't start telling interviewers that until after Carson died in 2005.  Carson said, in one of his few interviews, that Sinatra heard the song through Lee Hazelwood.

Whatever the case, Frank and Nancy's version topped the charts in the US and UK as we all know - and that made Carson financially more than comfortable for the rest of his life, which was mostly spent in music publishing rather than writing or performing.  Plus, the song had a second wind in 2001 when Robbie Williams recorded it with Nicole Kidman and topped the charts in five countries including the UK, back in the days when CD sales were still strong.

However, technology being what it is - about all VDP can hope for is that the revival of vinyl sales can increase to the point where significant royalties come in from that format, since album prices are quite a bit higher than they were when vinyl went into eclipse.  Otherwise, for now digital is ruling the roost and the artist has to adjust to that economic reality.

[Peadar 'Big Dinner' O'Driscoll]

His twitter stream can be a little unbecoming of a great artist as he is always pushing people to buy his records.

I cant think of any other great artist that uses twitter for that....at least not so directly.

I can see his point though but its a losing battle.

[Mike's Beard]

I bet secretly Van Dyke must be kicking himself that he turned down the offer to rewrite the lyrics for Good Vibrations.

[The Demon]

It only makes sense that a performer should make more money than a songwriter, because there's more effort and work involved.  Bernie Taupin writes a song, one time, then has Elton John tour the world for 40 years performing it, all the while giving Bernie a piece. 

Except, without the content there is no performance.  The writer is more important.  Elton didn't have to tour the world for 40 years.  He's chosen to, and he's been able to choose to because of the songs written with Taupin.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I bet secretly Van Dyke must be kicking himself that he turned down the offer to rewrite the lyrics for Good Vibrations.

I'm guessing he still gets a nice little check every now and then for "H&V": been a concert staple for quite a few years (OK, not since 1998 with M&B) and I can't remember the last GH comp it wasn't on.

[the captain]

Except, without the content there is no performance.  The writer is more important. 

I think it's silly to try to rank writer versus performer, as neither can exist without the other. A songwriter without a performer is useless (unless people buy and read sheet music, which is hardly the most satisfying musical experience), and a performer without songs, as you've noted, has nothing to perform. They're both essential. It doesn't have to be a dick-measuring contest.

[the captain]

Having read his essay, I'll actually speak for what seems to be the minority here: I agree with VDP. Listeners are less and less likely to pay for music. Sure, there are the deluxe box-set treatment releases that grown-ups buy in a fetishistic zeal. But the average listener isn't buying music very often. VDP complains about Spotify, but that's far from the worst offender for the artist, as there is at least a nominal payment there from either the ads (in the free service) or the subscription fees. Pandora would fit into that category as well, as would Google's music service.

What about youtube? Many of my friends, especially those younger than me, go to youtube as their primary music platform. I don't think there are any royalties coming from youtube views, unless I'm mistaken. (I know that people do work out advertising deals with certain youtube page owners, so presumably someone can work something out that way.) The idea of pirating actual files is passe among many people: they've moved on to the assumption that everything is always there, online, ready for them to hear for free. Why even bother downloading anymore (paid or unpaid)?

No angel and sometimes something of a hypocrite, I certainly use Spotify, and even youtube. As was my professed practice back in my album-leak seeking days (or even promo copies when I wrote), I try to buy what I like after using those other means to make that determination. Really, though, at least intellectually I agree that we all should be paying more for our music. I'm not talking about the high-priced, aforementioned box sets. I'm talking about regular music. It should cost more and we should pay it, with the important caveat that the increase in cost should go to writers and musicians, not executives.

That's my sure-to-be-popular opinion.

[joshferrell]

If VDP had written a song with Ringo in 1973, it would've been on a hit album, possibly been played on mainstream radio, and sold a million or more copies. I love Ringo, but no one buys his albums these days. That is the major difference - and so it is for every major - or minor - pop or rock star of that generation today. Radio is still the primary - although not the only - vehicle to expose people to new music, and if they ain't playing it, you and i ain't buying it. Except for a few thousand diehards that will buy each and every gasp that artist utters.

he DID give a song to Ringo in 1974..and I don't think it helped with the sales any..Ringo has had some decent albums the last 20 years, better than some that he did in the 70's and 80's..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8aB7WrDZI4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsPEsHRBzDM

[Rocky Raccoon]

He wrote a nice song with Ringo called "Walk With You" a few years ago which was a duet with Paul McCartney.  Not a great song but nice enough, can't really hear Van Dyke's influence on it though, the lyrics are kind of corny.

[feelsflow]

If VDP had written a song with Ringo in 1973, it would've been on a hit album, possibly been played on mainstream radio, and sold a million or more copies. I love Ringo, but no one buys his albums these days. That is the major difference - and so it is for every major - or minor - pop or rock star of that generation today. Radio is still the primary - although not the only - vehicle to expose people to new music, and if they ain't playing it, you and i ain't buying it. Except for a few thousand diehards that will buy each and every gasp that artist utters.

he DID give a song to Ringo in 1974..and I don't think it helped with the sales any..Ringo has had some decent albums the last 20 years, better than some that he did in the 70's and 80's..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8aB7WrDZI4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsPEsHRBzDM

careful josh.  I rarely correct folks, and am not trying to be a jerk... But, us Allen Toussaint fans are here too.  Van Dyke did a version, he did a couple of Allen's songs on Discover America.  Are you saying he suggested to Ringo that he cover it?  Cause Ringo's version had Dr. John on piano and backing vocals.  I don't have that Ringo album.  Is Van Dyke listed somewhere in the credits?

Allen wrote, played and sang "Occapella" with Lee Dorsey in 1970.  He wrote it for Lee, and he's getting those publishing royalty checks - not Van Dyke.  It's on Lee's Yes We Can album (Yes, that Toussaint song was also done before the Pointer Sisters had the hit), as were so many more.  "Fortune Teller" "Working in a Coal Mine" "A Certain Girl" "Southern Nights" "Get Out of My Life, Woman" "Brickyard Blues" "Mother-In-Law" "I Like It Like That" "What Do You Want The Girl To Do?" "Sneakin' Sally Through the Alley" "Night People"...I could list more, but you get the point.  Allen's been around since the 50's.  Al Hirt was a Bourbon Street club performer until he heard and recorded "Java."  Herb Alpert heard Allen's "Whipped Cream" (Allen used disguises, this one released as The Stokes) in 1964 and recorded it note for note, and off into history.  The Meters were his in-house band when he opened Sea-Saint Studios in the early 70's - the first state-of-the-art studio ever built in New Orleans.  He's still alive and writing, producing and arranging- and performing.  I'll stop now, not even mentioning his work with McCartney, Clapton, The Band, Elvis Costello...  His music stays in heavy rotation in various radio formats.  His tunes pop up as TV themes and advertising jingles.  Allen's been covered and probably, I don't want to say screwed, but, overlooked plenty.  Maybe screwed a bit by all the hip-hoppers sampling his work.  Not too many folks running around saying, "Yeah, that's a Toussaint song."  Toussaint is so mellow and stays so far in the background he's hardly noticed.  So if you-r-a-linkin', add Lee to the list. 

Oh wait, I need a Beach Boys connection to keep this more on topic.  I wish Van Dyke a long prosperous life, I love his music and support him by buying all his music.  You can too. - or just send checks to...

[joshferrell]

If VDP had written a song with Ringo in 1973, it would've been on a hit album, possibly been played on mainstream radio, and sold a million or more copies. I love Ringo, but no one buys his albums these days. That is the major difference - and so it is for every major - or minor - pop or rock star of that generation today. Radio is still the primary - although not the only - vehicle to expose people to new music, and if they ain't playing it, you and i ain't buying it. Except for a few thousand diehards that will buy each and every gasp that artist utters.

he DID give a song to Ringo in 1974..and I don't think it helped with the sales any..Ringo has had some decent albums the last 20 years, better than some that he did in the 70's and 80's..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8aB7WrDZI4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsPEsHRBzDM

careful josh.  I rarely correct folks, and am not trying to be a jerk... But, us Allen Toussaint fans are here too.  Van Dyke did a version, he did a couple of Allen's songs on Discover America.  Are you saying he suggested to Ringo that he cover it?  Cause Ringo's version had Dr. John on piano and backing vocals.  I don't have that Ringo album.  Is Van Dyke listed somewhere in the credits?

Allen wrote, played and sang "Occapella" with Lee Dorsey in 1970.  He wrote it for Lee, and he's getting those publishing royalty checks - not Van Dyke.  It's on Lee's Yes We Can album (Yes, that Toussaint song was also done before the Pointer Sisters had the hit), as were so many more.  "Fortune Teller" "Working in a Coal Mine" "A Certain Girl" "Southern Nights" "Get Out of My Life, Woman" "Brickyard Blues" "Mother-In-Law" "I Like It Like That" "What Do You Want The Girl To Do?" "Sneakin' Sally Through the Alley" "Night People"...I could list more, but you get the point.  Allen's been around since the 50's.  Al Hirt was a Bourbon Street club performer until he heard and recorded "Java."  Herb Alpert heard Allen's "Whipped Cream" (Allen used disguises, this one released as The Stokes) in 1964 and recorded it note for note, and off into history.  The Meters were his in-house band when he opened Sea-Saint Studios in the early 70's - the first state-of-the-art studio ever built in New Orleans.  He's still alive and writing, producing and arranging- and performing.  I'll stop now, not even mentioning his work with McCartney, Clapton, The Band, Elvis Costello...  His music stays in heavy rotation in various radio formats.  His tunes pop up as TV themes and advertising jingles.  Allen's been covered and probably, I don't want to say screwed, but, overlooked plenty.  Maybe screwed a bit by all the hip-hoppers sampling his work.  Not too many folks running around saying, "Yeah, that's a Toussaint song."  Toussaint is so mellow and stays so far in the background he's hardly noticed.  So if you-r-a-linkin', add Lee to the list. 

Oh wait, I need a Beach Boys connection to keep this more on topic.  I wish Van Dyke a long prosperous life, I love his music and support him by buying all his music.  You can too. - or just send checks to...

opps you're right, got confused, Van did a solo recording of it,,, I was thinking maybe he was on Ringo's version for some reason, oh well...

[feelsflow]

I'm fine with it.  I could have just PMed you, but it gave me a chance to talk about a favorite of mine who doesn't get talked about often enough.  So I grabbed at it.  Hope you look into more of his music.