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Author Topic: *Merged* Brian Wilson current album thread  (Read 325207 times)
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« Reply #375 on: June 11, 2014, 08:38:38 AM »

I was a lot more excited at the prospect of Brian working with Jeff Beck than I am with him working with modern female pop vocalists. For all we know the results may be fantasitic but as a fan I'm entitled to say it's not what I'd want or expect from the guy if asked.
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« Reply #376 on: June 11, 2014, 08:39:40 AM »

No, the album doesn't have to be good. It just has to have a fan base that will buy and uncritically praise no matter what this particular artist does, or has his people doing for him, whether it be Joe Thomas or whoever else he has doing a lot of heavy lifting for him.  Brian has turned into one of those kids in soccer who automatically gets a trophy for participating. It doesn't matter how he plays that day, if he only plays a few minutes, or if the team loses, he gets a shiny gold cup.

I suppose that's also true of a legend like Bob Dylan, who has enough good will and great work in the distant past that he can coast on his laurels, but I don't think his fan base gets angry if a fan or anyone else dares to criticize him, and Bob certainly seems to care less if someone criticizes him.  You won't catch Bob Dylan taking to Facebook posting a "poor, pitiful me" message if someone is skeptical about something he's doing.

This post comes off as quite mean spirited. I hope you aren't that way to people you actually meet in person.

Wow, really? There's nothing mean about what I said. Brian is out in the public eye and putting himself out there, he needs to be able to take feedback, which is what those fans were giving him. They weren't even criticizing him, they were mildly critical of his choice (or his manager's choice) of duet partners. Life requires one to be able to take feedback and criticism. You have to deal with that fact no matter what job you have in life. We all get performance reviews.
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« Reply #377 on: June 11, 2014, 08:45:33 AM »

No, the album doesn't have to be good. It just has to have a fan base that will buy and uncritically praise no matter what this particular artist does, or has his people doing for him, whether it be Joe Thomas or whoever else he has doing a lot of heavy lifting for him.  Brian has turned into one of those kids in soccer who automatically gets a trophy for participating. It doesn't matter how he plays that day, if he only plays a few minutes, or if the team loses, he gets a shiny gold cup.

I suppose that's also true of a legend like Bob Dylan, who has enough good will and great work in the distant past that he can coast on his laurels, but I don't think his fan base gets angry if a fan or anyone else dares to criticize him, and Bob certainly seems to care less if someone criticizes him.  You won't catch Bob Dylan taking to Facebook posting a "poor, pitiful me" message if someone is skeptical about something he's doing.

This post comes off as quite mean spirited. I hope you aren't that way to people you actually meet in person.

Wow, really? There's nothing mean about what I said. Brian is out in the public eye and putting himself out there, he needs to be able to take feedback, which is what those fans were giving him. They weren't even criticizing him, they were mildly critical of his choice (or his manager's choice) of duet partners. Life requires one to be able to take feedback and criticism. You have to deal with that fact no matter what job you have in life. We all get performance reviews.

You're really talking about regular, long-term healthy folk though. Brian has issues which make the scenario a tad different.

A bit like criticising a guy with the gout for not being able to run for the bus.  It's what you can't see that turns it into a different kettle of fish.
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« Reply #378 on: June 11, 2014, 08:49:49 AM »

First, as I said it's the nature of the music business in 2014. Anyone can disagree on principle or integrity issues or whatever, but that's the way it is.

I have more of an "issue" with artists who I won't name marketing their songs by releasing them as background music for commercials selling products like the iPod, or in McCartney's case some product I don't even remember where his new song was the jingle.

But hey...that's how it's done. They reach more potential listeners using a so-called "work of art" as background jingle music in a commercial than they do by the old methods. I don't necessarily agree, but if the goal is more listeners and more buyers, that's what will be done to promote the song.

What i don't understand, or necessarily agree with, is the problem with crediting guest artists or collaborators. Again, it's not the 1960's so if, say, Eric Clapton were to have played a guitar solo on "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" in a modern scenario, I'm sure he'd get a credit.

Isn't there also a truth in advertising notion at work? When that song was released in 1968, and Clapton's contribution wasn't mentioned at all, how many listeners assumed it was one of the Beatles playing that guitar part? At that time, that's just not how the band did things, but at the same time does that preclude any guest spots on a band's album getting credit for the contributions?

Some of this is anachronistic thinking assuming things should or will be done as they were in a different era, and again in a time when a new single is released to sell iPods for Apple as much as it is released for fans of that artist to buy, things have changed and so should assumptions about how music will be delivered to the fans and listeners.

Whether it's right or wrong in fans' opinions is separate from the way it actually is done to get the music out and to get people to listen and/or buy.
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« Reply #379 on: June 11, 2014, 08:56:19 AM »

I was a lot more excited at the prospect of Brian working with Jeff Beck than I am with him working with modern female pop vocalists. For all we know the results may be fantasitic but as a fan I'm entitled to say it's not what I'd want or expect from the guy if asked.

Well I think it goes without saying that many here see the entire business of these collaborations as being disrespectful to Brian Wilson's legacy just based on whom he is collaborating with and the disparity between the talents Wilson possessed in his prime and at his peak powers and what his collaborators are capable of doing in the prime of their careers (which for those who haven't noticed is right here, right now).  But the other side of that coin is that younger musicians who choose to collaborate with legendary figures such as Brian Wilson usually have nothing but respect for the person who they are collaborating with.  I remember watching that video of Brian Wilson and Zooey Deschanel at the Hollywood Bowl a few years ago, and my initial read on that video is that Zooey was having a legitimate "fangirl" moment sitting next to Brian Wilson at The Hollywood Bowl.

I also remember something I believe Springsteen said regarding the last record Clarence Clemmons ever made which happened to be an appearance on a Lady GaGa single.  I believe Springsteen mentioned that Clemmons would've have been pleased to have gone out on top, contributing to a modern hit record.  
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« Reply #380 on: June 11, 2014, 09:00:45 AM »

What i don't understand, or necessarily agree with, is the problem with crediting guest artists or collaborators. Again, it's not the 1960's so if, say, Eric Clapton were to have played a guitar solo on "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" in a modern scenario, I'm sure he'd get a credit.

Yeah but would he get a credit on the outer sleeve?  That I'm not too sure about.  I have no problem if the collaborators are given credit in the liner notes and in fact think the sixties practice of not giving collaborators credit at all is equally ridiculous to the crass commercialism that exists today in marketing records.  I'm just saying I would have issue if one of my favorite bands released a single today and had the "featured" tag stuck onto it. 
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« Reply #381 on: June 11, 2014, 09:01:21 AM »

No, the album doesn't have to be good. It just has to have a fan base that will buy and uncritically praise no matter what this particular artist does, or has his people doing for him, whether it be Joe Thomas or whoever else he has doing a lot of heavy lifting for him.  Brian has turned into one of those kids in soccer who automatically gets a trophy for participating. It doesn't matter how he plays that day, if he only plays a few minutes, or if the team loses, he gets a shiny gold cup.

I suppose that's also true of a legend like Bob Dylan, who has enough good will and great work in the distant past that he can coast on his laurels, but I don't think his fan base gets angry if a fan or anyone else dares to criticize him, and Bob certainly seems to care less if someone criticizes him.  You won't catch Bob Dylan taking to Facebook posting a "poor, pitiful me" message if someone is skeptical about something he's doing.

This post comes off as quite mean spirited. I hope you aren't that way to people you actually meet in person.

Wow, really? There's nothing mean about what I said. Brian is out in the public eye and putting himself out there, he needs to be able to take feedback, which is what those fans were giving him. They weren't even criticizing him, they were mildly critical of his choice (or his manager's choice) of duet partners. Life requires one to be able to take feedback and criticism. You have to deal with that fact no matter what job you have in life. We all get performance reviews.

In the particular case of his apparent upcoming album, it might be a *tad* unfair to undertake a performance review of something we haven't heard yet. I think employers when conducting a review usually wait to review something until it has actually occurred.

I'm not super enthused about what this album may be shaping up to be. It doesn't help that Joe Thomas is the guy the helped bring us "Stars and Stripes." I'll probably be even more bummed if they elbowed tracks with the other BB's appearing in order to shoehorn in Frank Ocean.

I also think this idea that Brian fans blindly buy and love whatever he does is partially overstated, in two ways. First, Brian and BB fans are sometimes some of the most cranky, jaded, cynical bunch I've seen (sometimes with good reason considering what the band has put out there at certain times). Secondly, sycophantic fans are not unique to Brian. Every artist with a following has a faction of fans like this, that can't bring themselves to judge anything negatively. I've seen it for years from McCartney fans, and from many others. Then you get fans who reject negativity from other less sycophantic  fans (and some trolls, etc.), creating a super-uber-positive-defensive aura around their artist.

One can actually be positive but also realistic. I remember back when the Beatles were getting ready to release "Free As A Bird", some TV show got into some music industry event or awards show and started asking various "celebrities" what they thought, about a song that hadn't even come out yet. Chrissie Hynde offered rather dryly that it sounded like a good idea, but "let's hope it doesn't suck."

That's kind of where I'm at with Brian and the BB's. Let's hope it doesn't suck. They already f-ed up two years ago the best group thing they had going since the 70's. Now we can only hope whatever they scrape together individually or collectively doesn't suck.
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« Reply #382 on: June 11, 2014, 09:06:51 AM »

Surprised to see tastemakers like Pitchfork and FACTMag run the story on their sites today as well. Not everyday/month/year that Brian graces their news feeds.
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« Reply #383 on: June 11, 2014, 09:41:15 AM »

This thread has become truly bizarre.

Do all bands have fans like this?

I'm embarrassed to be considered a part of it.
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« Reply #384 on: June 11, 2014, 09:45:42 AM »

The reactions to the Beatles doing "Free As A Bird" makes an important point, especially what Chrissie Hynde said about it. Before she heard the song, she said "I hope it doesn't suck."

With any upcoming album or release of any kind, don't we all share that thought?

There has to be a difference between saying that, and suggesting that it will suck, then posting such things not just on fan message boards but on the artist's own Facebook page...especially considering no one outside the actual making of this music has heard a second of the actual music.

Take Chrissie Hynde's example as a reasonable way to respond in these cases, and also take it as coming from a musician and songwriter who I'm sure would react as strong if not stronger than Brian if *her fans* started posting the kinds of statements we've seen in reaction to an announcement that Chrissie Hynde was going to be releasing new music.

At the most basic level, it's not even giving the artists like Chrissie or Brian a fair shot, and it's putting that negativity of seeing the glass as "half empty" before the drink has even been poured.

What is fair game and which I have no problem with is/was those musicians who publicly said they didn't like "Free As A Bird" after hearing it. There were the groups of diehard Beatle fans who had a problem with that, and my take is and was that's everyone's right to say they didn't like something as long as it's been released and actually listened to in order to form that opinion.

Is it too far beyond logic to see a difference between "I hope this doesn't suck" and "this is going to suck" when talking about a project which no one has heard?

Wow.
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« Reply #385 on: June 11, 2014, 09:53:37 AM »

Do all bands have fans like this?

Unless there are Pink Floyd fan communities where any news of something Roger is doing is met with bitching about David and vice versa, or Stones boards where it's Keith versus Mick, or Boston fan boards where a mention of Tom Scholz gets Barry Goudreau fans bent out of shape, I'd say hopefully not.
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« Reply #386 on: June 11, 2014, 10:06:44 AM »

There are people who think Frank Ocean and Lana Del Rey suck. They also had no prior connection to Brian, so no one owes them anything. If Brian and his people had chosen different, generationally compatible duet partners, people wouldn't object. Some people like Frank and Lana, and others don't. It doesn't matter that they haven't heard the duets with Brian yet. If you don't like an artist, you don't like it. What if Brian cut a track with Eminem? Or Kanye West? I think people are going to have an opinion in advance of hearing the tracks, even if they do wind up being not half bad.

You should have read comments on made about Mick Jagger dueting with Taylor Swift and Katy Perry on the last Stone's US tour on a couple of fan boards. It was not favorable, especially with Taylor Swift. And it wasn't entirely people dissing Taylor (though they did, people who like Stones music are not ever going to be into Taylor's music, whether it's actually bad or good), but the combination with Mick. And why he would choose to do duets with her in the first place. Something about grandpa singing with a woman young enough to be his granddaughter. It just looked ridiculous, the clash between their ages and musical styles. Stones fans were upset and weren't afraid to voice their opinion about it.  They thought it was an example of Mick Jagger being mercenary and trying to stay relevant and winding up looking silly. No one thought Keith could possibly be in favor of it, though of course, Keith didn't do anything to stop it, so he was just as "guilty."
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« Reply #387 on: June 11, 2014, 10:10:40 AM »

I have long wished that Brian's albums could become more like Quincy Jones' records. Quincy is the only name on the cover, but the credits inside are as long as those at the end of a superhero movie. And Q doesn't sing, doesn't play anything on the record, doesn't write the songs...and yet, he is the artist, the creator of the album. Brian, it seems to me, has even greater right to do this, since he DOES write, play and sing on his albums, in addition to being the producer and arranger. Everyone wants to be on a Quincy Jones album and he will have very current young artists right next to old-timers...and it works. Why can't we afford Brian the same level of control and respect?
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« Reply #388 on: June 11, 2014, 10:17:01 AM »

Maybe it's because I'm younger than many posters here (27), but I don't understand why anyone would write off this album because Frank Ocean, Lana Del Ray, Zooey Deschanel or Kacey Musgraves are singing on it. It's not Brian performing their music -- which would be artistically pathetic -- it's today's artists contributing to Brian's modern songs.

Hasn't it long been said that you can't make Brian do something he doesn't want to do? And that if he's forced to, he'll just shut down? Sure, Brian probably didn't know any of these artists before the sessions started, but if he didn't want these songs or singers to be part of his album, they wouldn't be.
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« Reply #389 on: June 11, 2014, 10:18:38 AM »

people who like Stones music are not ever going to be into Taylor's music, whether it's actually bad or good

That's quite a generalization, and frankly one that doesn't give listeners much credit. I certainly like some music from both the Stones and Taylor Swift. (I also dislike some from both.)
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« Reply #390 on: June 11, 2014, 10:35:40 AM »

I think one thing people may be discounting is that Brian Wilson, who needs neither money nor respect at this point in his career, records music for fun. It's easy for fans to talk about artistic expression and commercial potential, and I'm sure those are real factors. But when Brian goes into the studio, maybe, just maybe, it's because he feels like it. He's been doing it his whole life, and it's fun to make records! And so maybe Brian wants to shake things up by bringing in some other voices, and so he asks his management to find some young people he can sing with - no one too scary or intimidating, not Paul McCartney (and it's not like those super-star collaborations ever go well anyways), just some new voices. You know?
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« Reply #391 on: June 11, 2014, 10:39:22 AM »

Maybe they're his new Marilyn.
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« Reply #392 on: June 11, 2014, 10:51:19 AM »

http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/6114184/brian-wilson-tells-doubters-to-back-off-it-kind-of-bums-me-out
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« Reply #393 on: June 11, 2014, 10:54:05 AM »

If this is the fun island (or whatever it was called) concept then I'm really happy.  Sounds like the Zooey track is from that idea at the very least.

Be nice to have a concept like TLOS.
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« Reply #394 on: June 11, 2014, 10:54:46 AM »

Also important to note that Kasey Musgrave, Lana Del Rey and Frank Ocean are all artists on labels owned by the Universal Music Group. As is one Brian Wilson.
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« Reply #395 on: June 11, 2014, 10:58:55 AM »

Already raised here:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,17691.msg455079.html#msg455079
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« Reply #396 on: June 11, 2014, 11:12:38 AM »

This thread has become truly bizarre.

Do all bands have fans like this?

I'm embarrassed to be considered a part of it.

Wasn't that another thread...?
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« Reply #397 on: June 11, 2014, 11:14:44 AM »

You should have read comments on made about Mick Jagger dueting with Taylor Swift and Katy Perry on the last Stone's US tour on a couple of fan boards. It was not favorable, especially with Taylor Swift. And it wasn't entirely people dissing Taylor (though they did, people who like Stones music are not ever going to be into Taylor's music, whether it's actually bad or good), but the combination with Mick. And why he would choose to do duets with her in the first place. Something about grandpa singing with a woman young enough to be his granddaughter. It just looked ridiculous, the clash between their ages and musical styles. Stones fans were upset and weren't afraid to voice their opinion about it.  They thought it was an example of Mick Jagger being mercenary and trying to stay relevant and winding up looking silly. No one thought Keith could possibly be in favor of it, though of course, Keith didn't do anything to stop it, so he was just as "guilty."

^ This

As you noted the ridiculous quotient in that particular pairing was off the charts.  Your comment actually brings up something that I've wanted to touch on for the longest time and that is the discrepancy in how modern music acts are viewed by the musicians of the nineteen sixties versus the generation of music fans who experienced the music of the nineteen sixties as fans and later found their own success in the music industry in the mid-late seventies.  One thing I've always been taken aback by (and am quite frankly proud of) is how passionately the artists of the "Springsteen era" of rock music defend the legacy of rock and roll music.  You can hear the level of respect and admiration that these musicians have in their voices whenever these artists talk about musicians like Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley, Little Richard, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Beach Boys and the rest.  Quite contrastingly you can hear the level of disdain they have for the crop of modern musicians that have come up in the past few decades often voicing opinions that are shared by many classic rock fans that these modern acts on their best day are singers but don't even come close to being musicians.

However, it's interesting that artists like Brian Wilson, James Taylor or The Rolling Stones seem to be more embracing of these modern acts than the generation of musicians that followed them. Maybe because the artists of the nineteen sixties feel at this point in their career they have nothing left to prove and are virtually bulletproof in terms of their legacies although you can obviously argue that same points for a lot of the artists of Springsteen's era as well.  It just seems to be that the artists that came up in the industry in the mid-late seventies seem to be far more conscientious and protective of their music and legacies than the era that preceded them on many levels.  For example tell me the last time you heard a Springsteen, Mellencamp or Petty song in a television commercial or being used to promote a conservative politician without having it immediately pulled?  

I can tell you right now beyond a shadow of a doubt and to the point where I would bet money on this: You will never see Taylor Swift do a guest spot on one of Springsteen's albums or a guest appearance at one of his concerts.  

PS: Just bringing this back round to Brian Wilson.  I remember reading an interview with him less than a year ago where he was asked what artist in his mind defined modern music (or music as it exists in 2012/2013) and his response was: Paul McCartney.  I believe he also proffered Macca's name when asked a similar question at The Grammy Awards about what modern artists he listened to although I could be misremembering that particular response from Brian.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 11:22:24 AM by JohnMill » Logged

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« Reply #398 on: June 11, 2014, 11:28:10 AM »

One thing I've always been taken aback by (and am quite frankly proud of) is how passionately the artists of the "Springsteen era" of rock music defend the legacy of rock and roll music.

I'd argue there is nothing admirable about defending the legacy of rock and roll music. It may be the least rock and roll thing one can do.

You can hear the level of respect and admiration that these musicians have in their voices whenever these artists talk about musicians like Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley, Little Richard, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Beach Boys and the rest.  Quite contrastingly you can hear the level of disdain they have for the crop of modern musicians that have come up in the past few decades often voicing opinions that are shared by many classic rock fans that these modern acts on their best day are singers but don't even come close to being musicians.

Yet whatever respect and admiration they have for them, it apparently stops when that generation of musicians began doing anything beyond what they fell in love with and canonized (in this case, working with younger musicians, as you note in your next paragraph as happening). In other words, they're worshiping the corpses of people who haven't even died yet.

As for the views of classic rock fans about modern music, they are mostly irrelevant. Not as good as in my day, aren't even musicians, blah blah blah. It's an age-old complaint. Tastes usually are formed in a person's teens and twenties, as their life experiences rush through corresponding exciting moments, and ossify shortly thereafter. Then people disdain the newer music ... which is fine, because it isn't made for them.

What's funny is that anyone cares at all (about what anyone else makes or likes). Wait, is it funny or just sad?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 11:39:26 AM by the captain » Logged

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« Reply #399 on: June 11, 2014, 11:37:05 AM »

As I recall, most of the odd range of artists that Mick Jagger dueted with on his last tour were all connected to the same concert promoter as the Rolling Stones. So, maybe there is some kind of business demand for synergistic cross promotion between acts that are on the same label or promoter group.
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