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Author Topic: *Merged* Brian Wilson current album thread  (Read 564778 times)
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #250 on: June 10, 2014, 09:46:02 AM »

That is exactly right...what's been said about Autotune so far. The more the singer is off key, the more the Autotune function will "kick in", and then more of the residual effect will be heard. If you have a singer in perfect key, nailing every note, and you patch that into Autotune using the scale that includes all of the melody notes or even the "all in" chromatic scale setting which has every half-step, you will *not* hear the T-Pain or Cher effect, especially if you have the right settings and sensitivity and attack levels and all of that stuff dialed in just right.

BUT - if you want that exaggerated effect, you can deliberately set certain parameters to deliberately overuse the tuning function, or deliberately remove a few choice notes from the scale so anytime the singer goes between those notes the Autotune detects it as a "bad note" and will try to correct it, which also produces the effect.

I'm far from Kanye West but I have used and mixed with my own Autotune setup, and it is a lot like he describes. There are also less subtle ways to really kick in the effect not only by deliberately singing off-key but also by manipulating an existing track and again tweaking and setting the parameters to give the robotic sound.

But if a vocal track is 98% in tune, let's say a lead vocal, you won't hear obvious Autotune residue...depending on how you set it, the most it might do is something like a very subtle pitch up at the end of a sustained note, where many vocalists trail off and go flat as their breath runs out and they're going to hit another note. But that is really deep mixing and listening, by the time a song is fully mixed most people including pro engineers will probably not notice that.

And consider this: Whether we want to call it a "limiting amplifier" or a "compressor", depending on the use and the model, something like the classic LA-2A or the 1176 compressors were designed to work "transparent", which means if you set a vocal or a bass track through one of those units, it was not supposed to be noticeable to the average person, but was still supposed to trigger and respond to do certain things to that signal.

BUT - Eventually people started to realize that if you did things like push in all the buttons of an 1176 at the same time, it produced a very unique sound (called 'all in' by some) that became as much of an obvious effect as it was designed not to be noticed.

So you got records like "Mr. Tambourine Man" (McGuinn's guitar running through a chain of compressors working very hard), "September Girls", "Go All The Way", even the guitar intro to the #1 single "Last Train To Clarksville" which are deliberately over-compressed to create that signature sound and sheen. You have manufacturers making rack compressors like the "Distressor" which are expensive ways to get that same sound, that deliberate overuse of what was designed to be transparent.

Not to mention side-chains, "ducking" bass and drum tracks, all kinds of that application to deliberately make the compressors "pump" in time to the music when the original designers might have advised against setting it up to pump, because you'd hear what was supposed to be not heard.

For many rock musicians, the over-compressed sound is the sound of certain instruments, from clean guitar (modern Nashville pickers, John Frusciante on songs like Under The Bridge & Californication), to 12-string jangle overdubs, to "rock bass", to drums, to whatever else. Drum N Bass, House, Dance/Club, Reggae...etc.

So deliberately overusing something like an 1176 compressor unit became as popular as an "effect", a deliberate effect, though it was designed to be transparent and unnoticeable when used as a tool to fix or even out a track or signal.

Doesn't that sound a lot like Autotune? Until that Cher record became a smash hit, and someone who produced or engineered that record had the brilliant idea to use something which may not have been considered an optimal result from a studio tool, I think the designers of Autotune thought of it as a transparent tool to do subtle pitch correction on tracks that had just a few notes "off". Just like compressors being used as they were designed versus driving the hell out of them to create a deliberate effect.

Neat stuff. But going way back, a lot depends on the singer's performance, and how in-tune he or she was originally if you're trying to save a full track by fixing a few parts. The worse the original performance, the more you'll detect Autotune even if it's not being used as a T-Pain styled effect.

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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
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« Reply #251 on: June 10, 2014, 09:50:03 AM »

Speaking strictly about BUSINESS...

I don't think hip artists guesting on Brian's new album will move much more copies or downloads. Brian had his shot after the huge release of BWPS and TLOS didn't change his solo commercial fortunes. Now if he hadn't relesed a solo CD in 30 years it would cause some comotion, but that's not the case.

You are Mike Love and I want my $ 0.34, now.

I wish! Too much hair fortunately.  Smiley

Fair enough, but come on, the only reason to have Zoey on this album is BUSINESS. Not that she can't carry a tune, and not that her voice will make it a batter or worse album musically...
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« Reply #252 on: June 10, 2014, 09:52:30 AM »

Since when is Zooey a big album seller.

Brian's first week sales have been on par with her
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« Reply #253 on: June 10, 2014, 10:11:23 AM »

What you guys are missing with Zooey is, above all, she is a very public admirer of Brian and his music, who like many of us would *love* any opportunity to work with him, or even sit in the studio for a bit to watch him make music. She has covered his tunes, and as a musician herself she has a fan following for "She And Him", and she does write and perform some pretty neat tunes with a definite 60's pop sensibility.

Factor all of that in, I think it's a very cool idea to bring them together in some way on a music project.

Plus, her following is much bigger as a TV actress who stars in the leading role of a series, and she is also a pop culture personality who has a very vintage style and fashion sense that just happens to line up with a lot of people in their 20's and 30's right now.

Her fan base extends into television viewers, music, and fashion, but above all the fact that she loves Brian's music would seem to be good things to consider bringing them together with music.

And I'm still stuck on the historical point of her dad Caleb working with Brian in the Smile era to film that GV promo film, making a connection beyond 2014. If it hasn't been already considered, I think that would be a very cool angle to focus on around their working together on the new song.
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« Reply #254 on: June 10, 2014, 10:20:41 AM »

For the record, here is Brian and Caleb filming GV "The Firehouse Promo" in 1966:



And here is Zooey, her actress sister Emily, and Caleb in an older family picture:



And here they are a few years ago with mom:




Again, I think the connection to Brian from '66 is really cool.  Smiley

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« Reply #255 on: June 10, 2014, 10:23:19 AM »

Ok, ok. Just make sure that Brian knows it's Zoey, and not Joey.  Wink
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« Reply #256 on: June 10, 2014, 10:29:00 AM »

Zooey not only covered little Saint Nick on her bands christmas record she also chose "Christmas day", now that was very cool

She also chose the trader and long promisd road on her itunes playlist a while ago.

She's obviously a big fan but I'm not personally a fan of her music or voice.
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« Reply #257 on: June 10, 2014, 10:42:54 AM »

The auto-tune on TWGMTR (exempting the IIT single remix) is actually done very subtly.

I'm guessing you've never listened to "From There To Back Again". Because if you had, you'd not be making that statement. Actually, I don't mind RoboAl, but subtle it ain't.

Now, compared with what Thomas did to the live album, the autotune on Cher's "Believe" is subtle.

I'm guessing you're speaking about the opening line, particularly the "...there's no where else I'd rather be" line.

No, I'm talking about every note RoboAl sings, and my ears aren't as attuned to it as some here.


REALITY CHECK: 1. There are no overly audible retuning artifacts nor are there any interval jumps that sound particularly unnatural. 2. The story that has been recounted is that Al sang it line by line, only expecting to sing one bit in the song. Brian was so impressed that he had Al sing the rest of the verse. If it was that pitchy that it necessitated being that heavily auto-tuned (as some have claimed), would he have wanted Al to sing as much as he did? Brian still complains about the pitchiness on "California Girls". 3. When you're in a studio with a talented singer (which Al is, I think we'd all agree) and a very big budget (which this album had), you don't overly rely on auto-tune to get a workable track. You comp multiple takes to create one unified take. This is a fairly easy process in the world of Pro Tools (or any other DAW) and would take little to no time (once you've got the takes to work with!).

To my ears, it sounds like perhaps a bit of light ADT/tape delay (with some cool resultant stereo imaging) sent to a plate reverb with a very smooth decay. For the multi-tracked harmony ("...thinking bout when life was still in front of you") it sounds like they probably used Vocalign (or manual editing) to tighten up the timing. There may be some auto-tune in use on Al's vocals, but it's nowhere near as bad as anyone is claiming. They used the same processing chain for the rest of the lead vocals in the suite.

If you listen to Al's vocals on the re-recorded "California Saga" on his solo album, his pitch modulation sounds very similar (with a very light slapback delay), but without the reverb and stereo imaging that was used on the suite of TWGMTR, so the vocals are more "up front" in the mix.



Unfortunately, a singer not needing autotune is not in any way proof that it was not used. Many artists have proven in more recent years that they will use autotune when they DON’T need it. These are perhaps the most frustrating cases. Some engineers, producers, and/or artists use autotune as if it was as much of a necessity as electricity. It’s there, so they use it. I’m not saying taking a crappy singer and trying to cover it up with autotune is good, but at least it has an obvious purpose there. Not so with good singers who use it out of laziness or because their producer just thinks that’s the “sound” that the industry wants. I *wish* they would just let good singers comp multiple vocal takes, do fly-ins, etc. But many decent or good singers aren’t opting for this route, which I suppose would take more time and skill in some cases.

As to the audible artifacts of autotune, there are a number of very different artifacts. Two of the most common are the odd sort of “interval jumps” mentioned, and the more general “robo voice” effect. The “interval jump” thing happens for instance when autotune is applied to someone who isn’t simply slightly flatting or sharping a note here or there, but sings much more “all over the place.”


I think that you're missing my point (or I may be misunderstanding! Smiley)...Not that auto-tune itself has no artifacts but that the most common artifacts aren't all over From There To Back Again. I think people are hearing other things in the mix (such as ADT/tape delay) and mistaking it for what they believe is auto-tune. Don't take this the wrong way since you seem to be somewhat educated and experienced on the audio side of things, but most of the people that call something "auto-tune" haven't spent a whole lot of time (read: any) actually using auto-tune or sitting behind a mixing board. I've listened to FTTBA on more high-end monitoring systems than I care to admit and what people are hearing on there is not what they think it is, at least to my experienced and trained ears.
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« Reply #258 on: June 10, 2014, 10:59:07 AM »

The very first time I heard "FHTBA", the sheen of autotune was very obvious. It's not anything like as bad as the "live" album, but to anyone with functioning ears, it's evident, as it is on several other tracks. It's certainly not that subtle that my 57-year-old ears didn't pick it up right away. I'm not alone - go back and check the posts here in May 2012.
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« Reply #259 on: June 10, 2014, 11:13:14 AM »

Whether it's Autotune or something else, it's over-processed. It detracts from the performance. It makes the singer sound cold instead of warm. I'm not a fan of that album due to its cold sound, whether it's due to Autotune or compression or whatever else is used. I don't care for "Imagination," either, due to its plastic, cold quality. I do like Brian Wilson's '88 solo album, and that uses electronic instruments extensively and also has some electronic processing of vocals. But it has more warmth to it. It's how those tools are used in the hand of the producer, and I don't care for Joe Thomas's approach. 
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« Reply #260 on: June 10, 2014, 11:15:05 AM »

There may be some auto-tune in use on Al's vocals, but it's nowhere near as bad as anyone is claiming. They used the same processing chain for the rest of the lead vocals in the suite.

Indeed ? First you tell us most emphatically there's no autotune on the track at all, now there "may" be some. A little consistency, please.

And I never claimed it was bad (the contrary actually), just that it was unsubtle enough for me to catch it.
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« Reply #261 on: June 10, 2014, 11:37:15 AM »

There may be some auto-tune in use on Al's vocals, but it's nowhere near as bad as anyone is claiming. They used the same processing chain for the rest of the lead vocals in the suite.

Indeed ? First you tell us most emphatically there's no autotune on the track at all, now there "may" be some. A little consistency, please.

And I never claimed it was bad (the contrary actually), just that it was unsubtle enough for me to catch it.

Here's what I've said:

"The auto-tune on TWGMTR (exempting the IIT single remix) is actually done very subtly. There's one particular moment in TLOS where the auto-tune jumps out far worse than anything on TWGMTR."

"Al's performance is pretty tight on this, and there is probably a bit of auto-tune, but it's not what everyone is making it out to be."

"Not that auto-tune itself has no artifacts but that the most common artifacts aren't all over From There To Back Again."

"There may be some auto-tune in use on Al's vocals, but it's nowhere near as bad as anyone is claiming. They used the same processing chain for the rest of the lead vocals in the suite."

Which part of that is inconsistent? I've said all along there's auto-tune on the record but I've also stated that what most people believe they hear as auto-tune is actually as a result of different types of vocal processing, most of which doesn't have the negative connotation that the term "auto-tune" does.
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« Reply #262 on: June 10, 2014, 11:57:05 AM »


I think that you're missing my point (or I may be misunderstanding! Smiley)...Not that auto-tune itself has no artifacts but that the most common artifacts aren't all over From There To Back Again. I think people are hearing other things in the mix (such as ADT/tape delay) and mistaking it for what they believe is auto-tune. Don't take this the wrong way since you seem to be somewhat educated and experienced on the audio side of things, but most of the people that call something "auto-tune" haven't spent a whole lot of time (read: any) actually using auto-tune or sitting behind a mixing board. I've listened to FTTBA on more high-end monitoring systems than I care to admit and what people are hearing on there is not what they think it is, at least to my experienced and trained ears.

I definitely agree with your point that some may be scrutinizing the recordings to the point of hearing what they think is autotune when in fact it is some sort of other effect. 

I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if someone has cried “autotune” in some cases based on some other effect. But I do think the particular lines I was referencing on Al’s lead on “From There to Back Again” are awash in autotune. To some producers and engineers, this is probably the more subtle side of using it. But I know these guys’ voices pretty well, I’ve been listening to them since I was a kid. It’s pretty ingrained, and I’ve listened to a lot of Al recordings from very recent times; I’ve heard him sing in person and I’ve heard recorded examples of his voice processed a variety of ways. That particular recording has Al’s voice run through some form of autotune which smoothes out his voice until it’s more slick and processed than a slice of Kraft cheese. Still sounds like Al, all the evidence is there that he’s singing a great lead. But it has been needlessly autotuned in some fashion, giving that computer/robot-like quality to his voice.

Now, what others have been discussing, some of the Kanye-type stuff, is different. That is the modern use of autotune as an effect (and sometimes the byproduct being covering up someone who can’t sing). This is the use where it starts sounding more like Frampton’s freaking talkbox or actually more like a vocoder. I’ve even read some articles where the producers of that Cher song from the late 90’s tried to keep their “method” of getting that sound (basically turning autotune up to freaking 11 on purpose) a secret and didn’t mind if people thought it was some sort of vododer-type effect. In any event, this use of autotune is rampant on modern recordings, and is being used to sound very obvious, as an effect.

So when people are saying “if you sing well, autotune doesn’t work”, this is only partially true. If we mean singing a “straight” style of singing, where one is more or less on key and a decent to good singer, then autotune indeed won’t get that over-the-top vocoder type of sound. To get that sound, you probably have to purposely kind of sing rather monotone and flat. Brian’s leads on the early shows of the C50 tour partially got this effect. He wasn’t flatting a note here or there. He was singing like Brian does, which is all over the place. So in some cases, his voice was so “off” that autotune was creating those weird effects. It was more jagged-sounding than Kanye and the like, because it wasn’t meant to get that effect.

Where autotune is used more subtly is to take a mediocre singer, one who generally is on key but has control issues and sometimes sings slightly flat or sharp, and fix those individual notes. Done on a note-by-note basis (rather than the producer dialing it up to full blast for the entire track), this can be done subtly, sometimes almost seamlessly. Kind of more evil and tricky, but at least less obtrusive, and at least somewhat similar to the spirit of old school ideas like “punching in” or “flying in” vocal fixes.

But if you turn autotune up relatively high on someone who is pretty much singing just fine, you get what Al sounds like on “From There to Back Again.” There isn’t a note or two subtly fixed. It just runs everything through and sounds like a very slight vocoder-type robot effect.
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« Reply #263 on: June 10, 2014, 12:01:54 PM »

If the songs are good I don't care if Brian is singing a duet with Charles Manson. "A Friend Like You" sucked not because Paul's voice didn't blend with Brian's, it sucked beacause it was a forgettable dittie.

That's the thing: when superstar a and superstar b get together to do a 'duet', the performances never suck, but the songwriting often takes a back seat to the novelty of having the two stars on 1 song. 

This isn't a problem with Brian it's a problem all through the music industry.  Put two stars together, it often doesn't sound good.
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« Reply #264 on: June 10, 2014, 12:10:13 PM »

I never understood all the negative fuss about auto tune and other recording tools.  Seems to me that with all the resurgence of techno-pop, a lot of people like music coming through a machine.

But if you think about it, artists and producers have been doing their level best for the past 60 or more years to "improve" the sound of vocals and instruments on records.  People went to great lengths to get echo, reverb, double or multi track vocals, backward tape loops, talkbox, and so on.  New technology allows further tinkering with the sound of records.  Like it or not. 

I've been saying the same thing for 5 years on here Donald.  Save your breath, nobody's intelligent enough to see the similarities. 

If the sh*t's not live in a room with no mic and you standing there hearing it, there's trickery involved.  That's a Fact, Jack. 

Brian's doing less to his voice (or Al's) than he used to.  ALSO A FACT, JACK
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« Reply #265 on: June 10, 2014, 01:50:45 PM »

Fresh off Brian's Facebook page:

Quote
ROLLING STONE: Songs in contention for Brian Wilson's next album range from the sassy "Sharing a New Day" with Kacey Musgraves to the space-age bossa nova "On the Island" with Zooey Deschanel to the haunting "Last Song" with Lana Del Rey. Another possible highlight: "Special Love," potentially featuring Frank Ocean. "This project blows my mind," Wilson says. "I had no idea we could pull this off!"

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« Reply #266 on: June 10, 2014, 01:54:13 PM »

Like I said....Brian's Angels  Grin

Seriously though, I'll eat my hat if all three of these duets don't make the album. They're big names and appeal to the under-35 crowd.
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« Reply #267 on: June 10, 2014, 02:00:17 PM »

I can dig space-age bossa nova, but can Brian really pull of sassy?

Seriously though, I'll eat my hat if all three of these duets don't make the album.

Preserving this for later.
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« Reply #268 on: June 10, 2014, 02:08:15 PM »

Looking at the 3 stunning ladies brian has been spending some time alone with I wager Foskett has not been missed
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« Reply #269 on: June 10, 2014, 02:13:44 PM »

"Okay, now shave your legs for the first time"  Cheesy
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« Reply #270 on: June 10, 2014, 02:17:04 PM »

if this album turns out to be anything other than yet another misguided, mislead, misdirected, autotuned mistake for apologetic fans and the ever decreasing minority of young adults who can bear the cringe factor permeating the last 35 years of new beach boys-related material, ill eat my hat

this also
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« Reply #271 on: June 10, 2014, 02:34:27 PM »

if this album turns out to be anything other than yet another misguided, mislead, misdirected, autotuned mistake for apologetic fans and the ever decreasing minority of young adults who can bear the cringe factor permeating the last 35 years of new beach boys-related material, ill eat my hat

this also

Ah, but my hat eating is based on whether they'll be on the new album. I've already said the songs may very well be great for all we know. It would just make commercial sense to include them. Unless they go the "Best Buy" exclusive route and make them bonus tracks like the Carol King duets on TLOS (in either case, no hat will need to be eaten).   
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« Reply #272 on: June 10, 2014, 02:36:30 PM »

Perhaps we'll have a hat eating contest.
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« Reply #273 on: June 10, 2014, 02:41:25 PM »

.
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« Reply #274 on: June 10, 2014, 02:46:24 PM »

…Unless they go the "Best Buy" exclusive route and make them bonus tracks like the Carol King duets on TLOS…   

Gaaaargh! GAAAAARGH! Angry
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