Anybody else find the Love to Say Dada sessions kinda sad and hard to listen to?

[Cam Mott]

What do you think of his actions speaking louder than his momentary expressions?

[Joel Goldenberg]

Well, the bios I've read seem to say Brian took to his bed for a couple of weeks after Smile was cancelled, that Brian was not quite stable during the early Smiley Smile sessions and that he began to withdraw a bit production wise with Wild Honey, although I think he pretty much produced almost everything. Maybe not How She Boogalooed It.

[Cam Mott]

Well, the bios I've read seem to say Brian took to his bed for a couple of weeks after Smile was cancelled, that Brian was not quite stable during the early Smiley Smile sessions and that he began to withdraw a bit production wise with Wild Honey, although I think he pretty much produced almost everything. Maybe not How She Boogalooed It.

What if you forget the bios, what do your ears on the sessions and the product and the record of his activity in the studio in particular tell us? To me the physical evidence shows me a guy who is in control of his work environment and having fun and being fun and taking huge creative risks and is as productive and competitive as he ever was [he just isn't competitive in his old way].

[Joel Goldenberg]

Well, the bios I've read seem to say Brian took to his bed for a couple of weeks after Smile was cancelled, that Brian was not quite stable during the early Smiley Smile sessions and that he began to withdraw a bit production wise with Wild Honey, although I think he pretty much produced almost everything. Maybe not How She Boogalooed It.

What if you forget the bios, what do your ears on the sessions and the product and the record of his activity in the studio in particular tell us? To me the physical evidence shows me a guy who is in control of his work environment and having fun and being fun and taking huge creative risks and is as productive and competitive as he ever was [he just isn't competitive in his old way].

For sure, he was taking huge creative risks, and what came out was great. It's just too bad that some of the more elaborate tracks (Time to Get Alone by Redwood, Can't Wait Too Long, Cool Cool Water '67 version) were either prevented from coming out because of band politics or weren't finished.

Key to all this is knowing the real truth behind the "Produced by The Beach Boys" credit on Smiley Smile and Wild Honey. I have expressed the opinion on Steve Hoffman's site that those two albums were pretty much just produced by Brian, and the same goes for Friends.

[Cam Mott]

Well, the bios I've read seem to say Brian took to his bed for a couple of weeks after Smile was cancelled, that Brian was not quite stable during the early Smiley Smile sessions and that he began to withdraw a bit production wise with Wild Honey, although I think he pretty much produced almost everything. Maybe not How She Boogalooed It.

What if you forget the bios, what do your ears on the sessions and the product and the record of his activity in the studio in particular tell us? To me the physical evidence shows me a guy who is in control of his work environment and having fun and being fun and taking huge creative risks and is as productive and competitive as he ever was [he just isn't competitive in his old way].

For sure, he was taking huge creative risks, and what came out was great. It's just too bad that some of the more elaborate tracks (Time to Get Alone by Redwood, Can't Wait Too Long, Cool Cool Water '67 version) were either prevented from coming out because of band politics or weren't finished.

Key to all this is knowing the real truth behind the "Produced by The Beach Boys" credit on Smiley Smile and Wild Honey. I have expressed the opinion on Steve Hoffman's site that those two albums were pretty much just produced by Brian, and the same goes for Friends.

Jimmy Lockert told me that Brian was THE producer of everything BB he was involved in through Friends. To me it sounds like it on the tapes also.  I understand there is an interview with Carl circa '67 where he says Brian was the producer of SS [I've not seen/heard it, I think Alan Boyd reported it].

My guess is the "Produced By The Beach Boys" was some sort of PR like ploy to bolster their new group owned record label or something.

[Joel Goldenberg]

And as I'm sure most here have read, at least according to the Badman book, the Wild Honey LP with its first track listing was supposed to have a Brian production credit.

[Cam Mott]

And as I'm sure most here have read, at least according to the Badman book, the Wild Honey LP with its first track listing was supposed to have a Brian production credit.

If Brian was the sole producer he probably would have made/approved those credits.

[joshferrell]

I was thinking about the whole "Smiley Smile" thing, if you remember when Kurt Cobain recorded "In Utero" he wanted to make it so bad that everyone would hate it. of course it became a cult classic, so I'm wondering if that's what Brian was doing with "Smiley Smile" making it as bad as possible and it becoming a cult classic...

[CenturyDeprived]

I was thinking about the whole "Smiley Smile" thing, if you remember when Kurt Cobain recorded "In Utero" he wanted to make it so bad that everyone would hate it. of course it became a cult classic, so I'm wondering if that's what Brian was doing with "Smiley Smile" making it as bad as possible and it becoming a cult classic...

+1.

Drugs aside, it seems mighty likely that Brian was not in an emotionally healthy headspace when he put this album together.

[CenturyDeprived]

Well, the bios I've read seem to say Brian took to his bed for a couple of weeks after Smile was cancelled, that Brian was not quite stable during the early Smiley Smile sessions and that he began to withdraw a bit production wise with Wild Honey, although I think he pretty much produced almost everything. Maybe not How She Boogalooed It.

What if you forget the bios, what do your ears on the sessions and the product and the record of his activity in the studio in particular tell us? To me the physical evidence shows me a guy who is in control of his work environment and having fun and being fun and taking huge creative risks and is as productive and competitive as he ever was [he just isn't competitive in his old way].

For sure, he was taking huge creative risks, and what came out was great. It's just too bad that some of the more elaborate tracks (Time to Get Alone by Redwood, Can't Wait Too Long, Cool Cool Water '67 version) were either prevented from coming out because of band politics or weren't finished.

Key to all this is knowing the real truth behind the "Produced by The Beach Boys" credit on Smiley Smile and Wild Honey. I have expressed the opinion on Steve Hoffman's site that those two albums were pretty much just produced by Brian, and the same goes for Friends.

Jimmy Lockert told me that Brian was THE producer of everything thing BB he was involved in through Friends. To me it sounds like it on the tapes also.  I understand there is an interview with Carl circa '67 where he says Brian was the producer of SS [I've not seen/heard it, I think Alan Boyd reported it].

My guess is the "Produced By The Beach Boys" was some sort of PR like ploy to bolster their new group owned record label or something.

Whatever the true reason(s) behind it, I can't imagine it was a crediting change that was simply taken lightly without a care in the world by a happy Brian. It seems like Brian was also quietly (or passive-aggressively) making a statement of his own, letting go/relinquishing control on purpose.

No matter how much he'd have outwardly downplayed it, I'm sure it was a big deal to him inside, much like Mike's relinquishment of being the main lyricist (for a time) surely had an impact inside of him. These guys are/were human, and minimizing whatever emotional aspects were at play doesn't seem to be an accurate or nuanced take on things.

The "PR ploy" thing may have been *a* legit factor (or excuse for it to happen), but IMO surely doesn't reflect the entirety of the reasoning that went into a change (of self demotion) like that.

[Cam Mott]

I was thinking about the whole "Smiley Smile" thing, if you remember when Kurt Cobain recorded "In Utero" he wanted to make it so bad that everyone would hate it. of course it became a cult classic, so I'm wondering if that's what Brian was doing with "Smiley Smile" making it as bad as possible and it becoming a cult classic...

Why would Brian do that?

[joshferrell]

I was thinking about the whole "Smiley Smile" thing, if you remember when Kurt Cobain recorded "In Utero" he wanted to make it so bad that everyone would hate it. of course it became a cult classic, so I'm wondering if that's what Brian was doing with "Smiley Smile" making it as bad as possible and it becoming a cult classic...

Why would Brian do that?

because he gave up and didn't care at that point...

[metal flake paint]

And as I'm sure most here have read, at least according to the Badman book, the Wild Honey LP with its first track listing was supposed to have a Brian production credit.

Don't just take Badman's word for it

[Cam Mott]

I was thinking about the whole "Smiley Smile" thing, if you remember when Kurt Cobain recorded "In Utero" he wanted to make it so bad that everyone would hate it. of course it became a cult classic, so I'm wondering if that's what Brian was doing with "Smiley Smile" making it as bad as possible and it becoming a cult classic...

Why would Brian do that?

because he gave up and didn't care at that point...

I'm not seeing what shows he gave up or didn't care.

[joshferrell]

I was thinking about the whole "Smiley Smile" thing, if you remember when Kurt Cobain recorded "In Utero" he wanted to make it so bad that everyone would hate it. of course it became a cult classic, so I'm wondering if that's what Brian was doing with "Smiley Smile" making it as bad as possible and it becoming a cult classic...

Why would Brian do that?

because he gave up and didn't care at that point...

I'm not seeing what shows he gave up or didn't care.

well the simplicity of the album, how there was really no production and how he recorded it in such a short period of time, almost like he wanted to get it over with and released,,, just a thought of course I could be wrong though,,

[alf wiedersehen]

And as I'm sure most here have read, at least according to the Badman book, the Wild Honey LP with its first track listing was supposed to have a Brian production credit.

Don't just take Badman's word for it

So, that makes it seem as though the inclusion of those three songs changed the producer's credit. So, I suppose we can assume that Brian produced the bulk of it, while Carl and company probably produced "How She Boogalooed It", therefore changing the credit in the liner notes.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Session tapes from SS make it seem as if Brian was much more involved than the myth leads one to believe. However one feels about the album's contents, it was obviously an artistic decision,  otherwise Brian wouldn't have bothered rerecording anything .

[Jim V.]

I was thinking about the whole "Smiley Smile" thing, if you remember when Kurt Cobain recorded "In Utero" he wanted to make it so bad that everyone would hate it. of course it became a cult classic, so I'm wondering if that's what Brian was doing with "Smiley Smile" making it as bad as possible and it becoming a cult classic...

Why would Brian do that?

because he gave up and didn't care at that point...

I'm not seeing what shows he gave up or didn't care.

Yeah, I don't buy that theory either. It's obvious he still cared a whole lot about "Heroes And Villains" as a single, and even though the single version might not be to some people's taste's, it was Brian's ultimate take on the song. So even if we only talk about that one song in relation to Smiley Smile, he sure cared a lot and worked VERY hard on it.

[Cam Mott]

I was thinking about the whole "Smiley Smile" thing, if you remember when Kurt Cobain recorded "In Utero" he wanted to make it so bad that everyone would hate it. of course it became a cult classic, so I'm wondering if that's what Brian was doing with "Smiley Smile" making it as bad as possible and it becoming a cult classic...

Why would Brian do that?

because he gave up and didn't care at that point...

I'm not seeing what shows he gave up or didn't care.

Yeah, I don't buy that theory either. It's obvious he still cared a whole lot about "Heroes And Villains" as a single, and even though the single version might not be to some people's taste's, it was Brian's ultimate take on the song. So even if we only talk about that one song in relation to Smiley Smile, he sure cared a lot and worked VERY hard on it.

I agree. It seems to me there are as many studio days/hours devoted to SS as to PS and Brian is personally hands-on working much harder on SS in ways. The recordings are packed into a shorter beginning to end time period which tells me the shorter time span is just a function of less days between a similar number of sessions not rushing or short changing the process. He hand delivered H&V to a radio station.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Just from hearing the boots (in stereo!) there's much more sonic detail than may at first appear. Really, the album would've better received if it wasn't so muddy in its release.

[Cam Mott]

My sessionography info might be outdated but if I go all the way back to July '65 to pick up a SJB session I count 27 sessions for PS from 7/65 through 4/66.

If you don't start counting sessions for SS until starting in May '67 after the cancellation announcement I count 27 sessions through July '67. If you count the April '67 sessions for Vegetables, with its non-SMiLE title and some of which ended up on SS, we are talking about 36 sessions. And we haven't even counted any proper SMiLE era sessions which also ended up on SS.

The bulk of PS happened from late Dec through mid April or about 15 weeks. Asher didn't start until mid January which would make it about 11 weeks.

If you start the bulk of SS as in mid May through mid July it is about 9 weeks. If you more properly [imo] start at early April with Vt it is 15 weeks.

The notion that SS was some sort of rush job is seeming like bollocksy.

[Cam Mott]

And as I'm sure most here have read, at least according to the Badman book, the Wild Honey LP with its first track listing was supposed to have a Brian production credit.

Don't just take Badman's word for it

So, that makes it seem as though the inclusion of those three songs changed the producer's credit. So, I suppose we can assume that Brian produced the bulk of it, while Carl and company probably produced "How She Boogalooed It", therefore changing the credit in the liner notes.

That would be plausible to me too if the engineer involved in the production didn't say Brian was the Producer.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Smiley Smile is my favourite Beach Boys album.

If you are blinded by 'good' production, and are unable to listen past it's lofi sound, then yes, you may be disapointed. If you can appreciate music for the sake of music then SS is chock full of amazing structural ideas and harmonies. To me, this is Brian on top of his game. I've said it before, the SS Wind Chimes is the greatest original music ever put on tape by anyone, ever.

IMO of course........

[Micha]

My guess is the "Produced By The Beach Boys" was some sort of PR like ploy to bolster their new group owned record label or something.

Maybe not PR, but Brian set himself apart more and more from the group after retiring from the road. More than that, the other guys were excluded more and more from the process of creating new music, being actually reduced to vocalists with no more input than the hired session players. Brian of course always was the major creative force, but things had developed to an extreme. The production credit may have been a nod to the other guys to acknowledge that they're a group as opposed to Brian Wilson and those puppets.

[Cam Mott]

Something like that but my guess is it was more about Brian and Capitol over the new Brothers label and not much between Brian and the Boys.