Back Home '63 Guitar Intro

[c-man]

What's the expert opinion on this guitar intro: intervals (thirds?) played on a 12-string electric?

[guitarfool2002]

No 3rds, just what sounds like octaves in unison, like a 12-string...but the tremolo picking seems to be going for an obvious mandolin sound. Could that be an acoustic 12-string with a pickup, or just a hot mic? There is too much live pick/string noise for that to be an electric 12 plugged in.

I would have also guessed mandolin but listening close I *think* I hear an octave string, and the mando doesn't have that.

[JK]

I was in the middle of typing this, so I'll stick my neck out and post it anyway... My two eurocents:

I assume you mean this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08uwg1j94k0

Then yes, it starts with a melody in rising thirds. I'm not a guitarist but the instrument seems to be tuned like a 12-string as the first note is doubled at the octave.

Didn't I read somewhere that Carol Kaye played guitar on this session? Although the sound makes me think of this:

"One custom instrument [Barney] Kessel played was essentially a 12-string guitar neck attached to a mandolin body (similar to Vox's mando guitar), which may have been played on the intro to The Beach Boys' 'Wouldn't It Be Nice'." [from BK's wiki page] In which case it might be acoustic...



Just a thought...

[guitarfool2002]

The notes are E G# B D C# B

On 12-string guitar to get the octave strings, you'd play the intro like this as in an E7 arpeggio shape:

E ----------------------
B ----------------------
G -------4--7--6---4--
D ----6----------------
A --7------------------
E ----------------------


On mandolin, there are no octave strings but anyone with a mandolin, try this:

E ------------------------
A ---------2--5--4---2--
D --2--6-----------------
G ------------------------

Tremolo pick each note.

Anyone with a 12-string or mandolin, try this and see what you think. I *think* I hear octave strings like the 12-string.

[zachrwolfe]

‍

[Andrew G. Doe]

FWIW, musicians on the session are:

Hal Blaine, David Gates (yup, that one), Carol Kaye, Jay Migliori, Steve Douglas and Brian.

Anyone there know to play a 12-string ?  In 1963, CK probably played guitar, but never heard of her playing a 12-string. Maybe Gates ?

[JK]

FWIW, musicians on the session are:

Hal Blaine, David Gates (yup, that one), Carol Kaye, Jay Migliori, Steve Douglas and Brian.

Anyone there know to play a 12-string ?  In 1963, CK probably played guitar, but never heard of her playing a 12-string. Maybe Gates ?

It seems Gates did play 12-string. Search for "12-string guitar" on this page: http://www.albumlinernotes.com/Bread_-_Retrospective.html)

That said, there's something unsettling about that intro. Question for guitarists: Is it possible to get a convincing mandolin-tremolo effect (and tone) on a regular 12-string? To be continued, no doubt...

[c-man]

FWIW, musicians on the session are:

Hal Blaine, David Gates (yup, that one), Carol Kaye, Jay Migliori, Steve Douglas and Brian.

Anyone there know to play a 12-string ?  In 1963, CK probably played guitar, but never heard of her playing a 12-string. Maybe Gates ?

I think it was probably Carol on this 12-string intro...in some of her earliest known interviews (from the '80s and '90s, which are probably a bit more reliable than her later ones), she mentions playing 12-string a lot in the early days. Gates played both guitar and bass, but Carol was still being hired as a guitarist at this point; she first played bass on a session at Capitol when the scheduled bassist didn't show up (I haven't been able to find any reference to the title, artist or producer, though).

From "Premier Guitar", August 10, 2012 (byline - Bill Murphy):

"Kaye played guitar—sometimes the Epiphone, sometimes a Gibson 12-string, and later, a Fender Jazzmaster—on many of these sessions, including the 1962 Blue Jeans hit “Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah” and the Crystals’ classic “Then He Kissed Me.” But her profile kicked into high gear on the Spector-produced sides for the Righteous Brothers, which included “You’ve Lost That Lovin’ Feelin’,” released in 1964. Kaye’s acoustic guitar part stands out prominently against Bill Medley’s lead vocal, revealing the essence of her style—a solid, steady rhythm accentuated by individually picked notes articulated with clarity and precision."

[c-man]

I, like john k, hear an octave string on only the first note. Considering the E and B strings of a 12 are not octaves and are in unison, would this not work?

E --------------10-9---
B ------9--12-------12
G --9-------------------
D -----------------------
A -----------------------
E -----------------------

Yeah, I would say that's probably it: 12-string acoustic with a pickup, or conversely, an electirc hollowbody mic'd to pick up the string sound acoustically (which is how they sometimes did it in those days), playing the notes on the strings indicated above.

[guitarfool2002]

I think I hear octaves on all strings being picked, listen close, and try it on a 12-string if available. I won't argue the point but I don't agree with the other tab, Craig. If you play it where Zach wrote it, the highest pitch would be the first note played due to the pitch on the G string high-octave string, and I don't hear it that way. But it could be my ears, feel free to ignore as usual. 

Andrew: Every guitarist playing sessions would at least have access to a 12-string, both electric or acoustic, although some were known as specialists over others (Like Glen who recorded a full album on 12-string). There is no difference technique-wise in playing 6 or 12 string guitar.

JohnK: It's possible to simulate mandolin on 12-string specifically on the high E and B strings, as they're doubled just like a mandolin. On 6-string, the illusion works best when you play in 3rds or similar two-note forms in the higher range. On both instruments, if you play higher up the neck, the illusion works better.

[c-man]

I think I hear octaves on all strings being picked, listen close, and try it on a 12-string if available. I won't argue the point but I don't agree with the other tab, Craig. If you play it where Zach wrote it, the highest pitch would be the first note played due to the pitch on the G string high-octave string, and I don't hear it that way. But it could be my ears, feel free to ignore as usual. 

Andrew: Every guitarist playing sessions would at least have access to a 12-string, both electric or acoustic, although some were known as specialists over others (Like Glen who recorded a full album on 12-string). There is no difference technique-wise in playing 6 or 12 string guitar.

JohnK: It's possible to simulate mandolin on 12-string specifically on the high E and B strings, as they're doubled just like a mandolin. On 6-string, the illusion works best when you play in 3rds or similar two-note forms in the higher range. On both instruments, if you play higher up the neck, the illusion works better.

Makes sense. I guess the actual notes and position played on this record don't matter as much to me as the verification from three or more experts that it COULD be done. Thanks, guys.

[guitarfool2002]

And if "Back Home" is 1963, there were no electric hollowbody 12-strings on the market to speak of. It would have had to be an acoustic 12 with a pickup, which is what McGuinn and many others used until Harrison's Rickenbacker in '64 changed the game.

[guitarfool2002]

Question for guitarists: Is it possible to get a convincing mandolin-tremolo effect (and tone) on a regular 12-string? To be continued, no doubt...

Off-topic, but I wanted to address this: Among the sounds I've showed my students how to simulate on 6-string electric guitar using mostly playing technique and sometimes a few external "toys" and effects are:

- Banjo using a strip of paper or handkerchief ( like Mrs Brown You've Got A Lovely Daughter )
- Pedal steel guitar using only bends and volume swells
- Mandolin
- Electric bass
- Cello and violin
- Marimba
- Hammond organ with fast/slow Leslie speaker
- An adult cat meowing
- A kitten meowing  
- A DJ scratching with turntables (Tom Morello)
- A train whistle
- Arrows shot from a bow (Apache - Jorgen Ingmann)
- Birds chirping (Duane Allman - Layla)
- The human speaking voice (Steve Vai)
- A European police siren or ambulance siren (using tapping and bends)
- An American police siren (using slide)

I was also asked at a studio session to play notes that sounded like monkeys in the trees of a jungle, swinging on vines, to compliment one lyric line of a song. Try that one!     Whatever I played, the songwriters seemed to like it, but I don't hear the monkeys to this day...

And related to Brian Wilson, the sound of railroad spikes being hammered into the tracks (Cabinessence - James Burton)

[zachrwolfe]

‍

[guitarfool2002]

Zach: I heard it just as I transcribed it, but again my ears may be hearing things different than yours! I'll agree by saying it could be either, sometimes I hear a high starting E note (as in G string 9th fret) and sometimes I don't. I'm totally ambivalent at this point, it could be either and I heard it both ways too.

Keep in mind too that if the part *was* done on an acoustic 12-string, if we consider that 9 out of 10 acoustic 12-strings were detuned a whole step (d to d) especially in 1963 by pro players, the position you tabbed out would be two frets higher, and intonation on most pre-60's acoustic 12-strings above the 7th fret is spotty at best, terrible at worst depending on the strings and player's touch. And you're having the part reach up to the 14th fret, again if that's an acoustic non-cutaway 12-string that's really stretching the limits of where it sounds good. I just can't judge, too, because we're still not 100% sure of what guitar played that part...but we can go on assumptions based on what most players would have played in the early 60's, and that was a detuned 12-string.

Too many variables on things we have simply no answer for, I think as c-man Craig said the main issue he asked was whether it could be done, and I think the answer is a resounding yes. 

[c-man]

And if "Back Home" is 1963, there were no electric hollowbody 12-strings on the market to speak of. It would have had to be an acoustic 12 with a pickup, which is what McGuinn and many others used until Harrison's Rickenbacker in '64 changed the game.

I think there were a few Maton electric 12-strings around in the early '60s.

[guitarfool2002]

And if "Back Home" is 1963, there were no electric hollowbody 12-strings on the market to speak of. It would have had to be an acoustic 12 with a pickup, which is what McGuinn and many others used until Harrison's Rickenbacker in '64 changed the game.

I think there were a few Maton electric 12-strings around in the early '60s.

That's true, and the Maton brand in general has turned up on quite a few classic tracks. Also, the Danelectro Bellzouki was around in '61 I believe, basically a 12-string solid electric and since LA studio players were already using Danelectro's baritones and other models, I'm assuming Danelectro would have been more available in the States pre-64 than the Maton.

Everyone has seen this studio shot, Tommy with his Bellzouki:


I mentioned the time period regarding micing up a semi-hollow electric 12, I think Harrison's Rick was at least the first semi-hollow electric 12 to see widespread use, then after '64 Gibson/Epiphone and others got into the semi-hollow 12 string game.

Unfortunately those 60's Gibsons (like Carl's) had a nasty habit of breaking at the headstock...combination of design flaw and players not detuning to relieve the tension...

[Mikie]

Good to see this song discussed. I've always liked it. For a few years it's been booted (at least 3rd or 4th generation recording) but when it was finally released on MIC, it seems like it came alive in its clarity. I'd like to know if somebody finally found the master or what the history is to the recording and how/when it was found. Do we have a recording date (1963) and who played on it? Sounds like right around the time the Pamela Jean tracks were recorded, around August of '63 maybe. Heavy on Steve Douglas' sax.

[c-man]

Good to see this song discussed. I've always liked it. For a few years it's been booted (at least 3rd or 4th generation recording) but when it was finally released on MIC, it seems like it came alive in its clarity. I'd like to know if somebody finally found the master or what the history is to the recording and how/when it was found. Do we have a recording date (1963) and who played on it? Sounds like right around the time the Pamela Jean tracks were recorded, around August of '63 maybe. Heavy on Steve Douglas' sax.

As Andrew noted above, the players are:
"Hal Blaine, David Gates (yup, that one), Carol Kaye, Jay Migliori, Steve Douglas and Brian."
Plus probably Bob Norberg on rhythm guitar, and Brian + Bob on backing vocals.
Cut at Gold Star on June 14, 1963 (while the other Beach Boys were gigging in Hawaii).

[Mikie]

Thanks for reposting! Sorry for not reading the whole thread this morning - was in a hurry. So David Gates from Bread fame was on this one. Wonder why it was available for awhile in inferior quality (Get The Boot) then mysteriously appeared on MIC in great condition. Didn't even show up on an SOT or Vigotone release. Just curious.

[Freddie French-Pounce]

Thanks for reposting! Sorry for not reading the whole thread this morning - was in a hurry. So David Gates from Bread fame was on this one. Wonder why it was available for awhile in inferior quality (Get The Boot) then mysteriously appeared on MIC in great condition. Didn't even show up on an SOT or Vigotone release. Just curious.

I never felt the Get the Boot version was that bad in quality. The only difference I find on MIC is no/minimal hiss, panned vocals and clearer vocals. However, I almost find this vocal too harsh. But whichever. 

[Mikie]

It sounds to me it's from a newer-generation source. I could be wrong - maybe it was cleaned up quite a bit, but everything sounds much clearer to me. Like a source closer to the master was found.

[JK]

JohnK: It's possible to simulate mandolin on 12-string specifically on the high E and B strings, as they're doubled just like a mandolin. On 6-string, the illusion works best when you play in 3rds or similar two-note forms in the higher range. On both instruments, if you play higher up the neck, the illusion works better.

Thanks, gf2002. It's most educational round this neck of the woods. (So thanks to all and sundry.) And yes, now everyone has seen the shot of Tommy Tedesco and his Bellzouki. :=) 

[c-man]

And yes, now everyone has seen the shot of Tommy Tedesco and his Bellzouki. :=) 

...in the midst of a cigarette break, no less...

[Andrew G. Doe]

Good to see this song discussed. I've always liked it. For a few years it's been booted (at least 3rd or 4th generation recording) but when it was finally released on MIC, it seems like it came alive in its clarity. I'd like to know if somebody finally found the master or what the history is to the recording and how/when it was found. Do we have a recording date (1963) and who played on it? Sounds like right around the time the Pamela Jean tracks were recorded, around August of '63 maybe. Heavy on Steve Douglas' sax.

As Andrew noted above, the players are:
"Hal Blaine, David Gates (yup, that one), Carol Kaye, Jay Migliori, Steve Douglas and Brian."
Plus probably Bob Norberg on rhythm guitar, and Brian + Bob on backing vocals.
Cut at Gold Star on June 14, 1963 (while the other Beach Boys were gigging in Hawaii).

Also tracked at this session: "Black Wednesday", which became "Run-Around Lover".

The original reason I heard for all the boots being so bad was that the master was heat damaged. However, as said info came from one Elliott, B., it has to be questioned in the light or subsequent nonsense.