VDP today on NPR said.....

[Jim V.]

VDP is a douche.....

he can keep SMILE. I'm perfectly happy with everything before and after.

Yes, Van Dyke can be very douchey. And so can Mike Love. Actually he's probably even more of a douche. So I wouldn't tell either of them that they can "keep" either of their music.

Funny how you defend Mike's "doucheyness" but if Van Dyke acts like a jerk, he should "keep" his contributions. Right.

[Mikie]

Kennedy was an okay president, but he did start the U.S. involvement in Vietnam.

There was no fixed beginning to the Viet Nam war. Harry Truman gave military aid to the French Colony aid back in 1950. Eisenhower dispatched military advisers to train a South Vietnamese army, and unleashed the CIA to South Vietnam. When Kennedy was assassinated in November 1963, there were more than 16,000 U.S. military advisers in South Vietnam. Kennedy indicated in an interview with Walter Cronkite in September 1963:

Kennedy: "I don't think that unless a greater effort is made by the Government to win popular support that the war can be won out there. In the final analysis, it is their war. They are the ones who have to win it or lose it. We can help them, we can give them equipment, we can send our men out there as advisers, but they have to win it, the people of Viet-Nam, against the Communists. We are prepared to continue to assist them, but I don't think that the war can be won unless the people support the effort and, in my opinion, in the last 2 months, the government has gotten out of touch with the people".

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

VDP is a douche.....

he can keep SMILE. I'm perfectly happy with everything before and after.

Yes, Van Dyke can be very douchey. And so can Mike Love. Actually he's probably even more of a douche. So I wouldn't tell either of them that they can "keep" either of their music.

Funny how you defend Mike's "doucheyness" but if Van Dyke acts like a jerk, he should "keep" his contributions. Right.

Who said anything about Mike?

But OK, with Mike: I like just about everything he's done or been involved with and he doesn't go around insulting The Beach Boys 50 years after the fact .... Good enough for me.

I dig VPD's solo stuff and SOME of his lyrics for SMILE, but on the whole, he's an overrated ass when it comes to The Beach Boys. Mike is not ..... That's it.

[Jim V.]

But OK, with Mike: I like just about everything he's done or been involved with and he doesn't go around insulting The Beach Boys 50 years after the fact .... Good enough for me.

Actually he does still insult Beach Boys fifty years after the fact. He still makes it a point to insult his cousin Dennis quite a bit even though dude has been for over 30 years. sh*t, he even basically talked about Dennis dying and Brian's problems on Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous and then compounded it with a "whatever." And he's also went on record (in legal documents I'm pretty sure) saying fellow band member Al Jardine has mental issues. And well, with Brian, I'd direct you to his extremely bitter 1992 Goldmine interview amongst many others. Now he won't insult "The Beach Boys" as an entity though because he's trying to make money for that "brand" (notice I said brand not band), but if somehow the license was taken away I'm sure he'd have bad to say about the brand as well.

Regardless of all his self serving sh*t, I still like most of Mike Love's music. Hell, I've even listened to "Camp California" more than once. So, if you don't like Van Dyke, fine. But if it's gonna be because he's a bitter prick, well then that's pretty rich considering Mike is THE bitter prick.

[CenturyDeprived]

VDP is a douche.....

he can keep SMILE. I'm perfectly happy with everything before and after.

Yes, Van Dyke can be very douchey. And so can Mike Love. Actually he's probably even more of a douche. So I wouldn't tell either of them that they can "keep" either of their music.

Funny how you defend Mike's "doucheyness" but if Van Dyke acts like a jerk, he should "keep" his contributions. Right.

Who said anything about Mike?

But OK, with Mike: I like just about everything he's done or been involved with and he doesn't go around insulting The Beach Boys 50 years after the fact .... Good enough for me.

I dig VPD's solo stuff and SOME of his lyrics for SMILE, but on the whole, he's an overrated ass.

One thing that to me, makes VDP's sour grapes attitude a bit more understandable (or at least, that I have empathy for the man) is that he really wound up with the short end of the stick, especially seemingly in terms of financial benefit, despite having been very close to having things go the other way, had SMiLE come out. He sees things a certain way in terms of blame, and his viewpoint is based on his own experiences firsthand that none of us had.

Not trying to go back into a debate of who is "right" or who is "wrong", but the man did wind up struggling, or so it seems, comparatively speaking, and while I'm certain he feels some self-blame + responsibility for leaving the project (he's said so on Beautiful Dreamer), he also probably feels that his own life struggles and trajectory was adversely deeply affected by someone else (Mike) in a negative way.

Whether or not you agree with that is besides the point - I'm saying that since he presumably does feel that way, it is understandable that he'd have a chip on his shoulder, and I can have some empathy for that. However, it sucks that he does seem bitter, because I'm sure that bitterness isn't doing him any emotional good.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think that's very well put ...... Which is why I still kinda think SMILE should have been a solo project for Brian without any "Beach Boys" related pressures .... Not like that would have been easy .... I guess: only record when The Boys are off touring?


Still, VDP chose to hire on with an already famous/established band, so knocking them doesn't seem very wise as an employee.

[CenturyDeprived]

I think that's very well put ...... Which is why I still kinda think SMILE should have been a solo project for Brian without any "Beach Boys" related pressures .... Not like that would have been easy .... I guess: only record when The Boys are off touring?


Still, VDP chose to hire on with an already famous/established band, so knocking them doesn't seem very wise as an employee.

Question - using that logic, do you think that Pet Sounds should have been a solo project for Brian without any "Beach Boys" related pressures?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think that's very well put ...... Which is why I still kinda think SMILE should have been a solo project for Brian without any "Beach Boys" related pressures .... Not like that would have been easy .... I guess: only record when The Boys are off touring?


Still, VDP chose to hire on with an already famous/established band, so knocking them doesn't seem very wise as an employee.

Question - using that logic, do you think that Pet Sounds should have been a solo project for Brian without any "Beach Boys" related pressures?

Good question, but I'm gonna say no .... That record feels like a Beach Boys record and Mike has some contributions here and there lyrically (another debate, I know) and the boys "feel" more present.... Plus, those songs needed the emotional variety of the Beach Boy voices.

[CenturyDeprived]

I think that's very well put ...... Which is why I still kinda think SMILE should have been a solo project for Brian without any "Beach Boys" related pressures .... Not like that would have been easy .... I guess: only record when The Boys are off touring?


Still, VDP chose to hire on with an already famous/established band, so knocking them doesn't seem very wise as an employee.

Question - using that logic, do you think that Pet Sounds should have been a solo project for Brian without any "Beach Boys" related pressures?

Good question, but I'm gonna say no .... That record feels like a Beach Boys record and Mike has some contributions here and there lyrically (another debate, I know) and the boys "feel" more present.... Plus, those songs needed the emotional variety of the Beach Boy voices.

In the words of Lumberg, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that I think they both should have been BB albums, through and through, but that's just my opinion.

But seriously, you are probably right in that it would have been easier on some level and less pressure if SMiLE had been conceived as a solo offering. Nonetheless, the thing that would have made SMiLE so cool in its day was for it to be released under the name of the BB, who just a year or two earlier were in a totally different musical world.

I would really, really love to know the nitty gritty into what the reasoning was for the "BW" credit on the Caroline, No single. Did Brian conceive of the idea himself? And do we know if it was intended as a band political statement of some sort? Has this topic ever been addressed by the band?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think that's very well put ...... Which is why I still kinda think SMILE should have been a solo project for Brian without any "Beach Boys" related pressures .... Not like that would have been easy .... I guess: only record when The Boys are off touring?


Still, VDP chose to hire on with an already famous/established band, so knocking them doesn't seem very wise as an employee.

Question - using that logic, do you think that Pet Sounds should have been a solo project for Brian without any "Beach Boys" related pressures?

Good question, but I'm gonna say no .... That record feels like a Beach Boys record and Mike has some contributions here and there lyrically (another debate, I know) and the boys "feel" more present.... Plus, those songs needed the emotional variety of the Beach Boy voices.

In the words of Lumberg, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that I think they both should have been BB albums, through and through, but that's just my opinion.

But seriously, you are probably right in that it would have been easier and less pressure if SMiLE had been conceived as a solo offering.

I would really, really love to know the nitty gritty into what the reasoning was for the "BW" credit on the Caroline, No single. Did Brian conceive of the idea himself? And do we know if it was intended as a statement of some sort? Has this topic ever been addressed by the band?

I do agree with you actually, I think that if this alternate scenario meant the album had been released as planned, then sure, BW solo SMILE!

I think (just guessing and not going back to do research) it might have been as simple as Brian's the only Beach Boy on the song? Same with why Getting Hungry was a "Brian & Mike" effort ..... I could easily be wrong though.

[CenturyDeprived]

I think that's very well put ...... Which is why I still kinda think SMILE should have been a solo project for Brian without any "Beach Boys" related pressures .... Not like that would have been easy .... I guess: only record when The Boys are off touring?


Still, VDP chose to hire on with an already famous/established band, so knocking them doesn't seem very wise as an employee.

Question - using that logic, do you think that Pet Sounds should have been a solo project for Brian without any "Beach Boys" related pressures?

Good question, but I'm gonna say no .... That record feels like a Beach Boys record and Mike has some contributions here and there lyrically (another debate, I know) and the boys "feel" more present.... Plus, those songs needed the emotional variety of the Beach Boy voices.

In the words of Lumberg, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that I think they both should have been BB albums, through and through, but that's just my opinion.

But seriously, you are probably right in that it would have been easier and less pressure if SMiLE had been conceived as a solo offering.

I would really, really love to know the nitty gritty into what the reasoning was for the "BW" credit on the Caroline, No single. Did Brian conceive of the idea himself? And do we know if it was intended as a statement of some sort? Has this topic ever been addressed by the band?

I do agree with you actually, I think that if this alternate scenario meant the album had been released as planned, then sure, BW solo SMILE!

I think (just guessing and not going back to do research) it might have been as simple as Brian's the only Beach Boy on the song? Same with why Getting Hungry was a "Brian & Mike" effort ..... I could easily be wrong though.

I just can't believe that there wasn't some sort of intentional statement being made by the unique credits for Caroline, No + Getting Hungry. I don't think I'm reading too much into it - there was something that made those decisions actually happen.

I know that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but these credits don't strike me as arbitrary decisions made just because those songs mainly (or only) featured either just Brian or just Brian + Mike.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I agree. Otherwise, 'Surfer Moon' and 'Keep an eye on summer' would've been credited as 'Brian Wilson' songs. With 'Caroline no' it wasn't that surprising in that Brian was having an increased public profile. With GH, though...what was the purpose?

[urbanite]

Has VDP ever been a part of a bona fide hit record, and if so, more than one?

[alf wiedersehen]

Has VDP ever been a part of a bona fide hit record, and if so, more than one?

Well, he was on "Kokomo," of course.
Not sure about others.

[clack]

Wasn't one of the reasons 'Caroline, No' released as a solo record was that it was issued within 2 weeks of 'Sloop John B'? Maybe the thinking was that a Brian Wilson single and a Beach Boys single could co-exist in the charts, while 2 Beach Boys singles on the charts at the same time would compete with each other.

As for 'Gettin' Hungry' : I seem to remember Peter Reum speculating that it was issued as being by Brian and Mike as part of effort by Brian to make good on a commitment he made  to Mike to write with him post GV -- a commitment Brian broke by teaming up with VDP, of course. I guess Mike having his name on a hit would have raised his public profile.

Bet Mike would have preferred having a hit 'Beach Boys' single, though, than a flop 'Brian and Mike' one.

[urbanite]

I meant a song VDP either wrote or produced. 

[KittyKat]

I don't think Van Dyke necessarily suffered financially for Smile not being released, unless one is of the school that it would have sold multi-millions of copies and been a blockbuster. Which I personally doubt. Also, in those days, hit albums sold far less than the big hits of years later. For example, Sgt. Pepper didn't sell anywhere near as many copies as Hotel California or Fleetwood Mac's Rumours. Many of Van Dyke's songs for Smile were released on Beach Boys albums over the years, so he did get royalties when those songs were released on albums such as Smiley Smile and Surf's Up. He now has gotten royalties for his work on both "Brian Wilson Presents Smile" and the Smile boxed set. Considering he had the highest royalty rate split of any BW collaborator, he hasn't done too badly from his work with the Beach Boys. His lack of financial success has more to do with his other career choices than "Smile." He could have done more film soundtracks, or worked with bands that are as commercial or more commercial than the Beach Boys, if he had chosen to. This is a guy who claims he walked away from being in the Byrds, so he should look in the mirror if he's not happy with his financial success.

[Dave in KC]

Yes, he did mention that he was involved with the Byrds with more exuberance than talking about the BB or BW.

[Cam Mott]

Wasn't one of the reasons 'Caroline, No' released as a solo record was that it was issued within 2 weeks of 'Sloop John B'? Maybe the thinking was that a Brian Wilson single and a Beach Boys single could co-exist in the charts, while 2 Beach Boys singles on the charts at the same time would compete with each other.

As for 'Gettin' Hungry' : I seem to remember Peter Reum speculating that it was issued as being by Brian and Mike as part of effort by Brian to make good on a commitment he made  to Mike to write with him post GV -- a commitment Brian broke by teaming up with VDP, of course. I guess Mike having his name on a hit would have raised his public profile.

Bet Mike would have preferred having a hit 'Beach Boys' single, though, than a flop 'Brian and Mike' one.

I think I remember that Brian had said that they had plans to release occasional songs under the name of the BB featured. Apparently it didn't get far.

Wasn't C,N advertised along side SJB as new releases from the BBs and it of course was on the album.

[Jim V.]

Has VDP ever been a part of a bona fide hit record, and if so, more than one?

"Heroes And Villains" went to number 12. I'd say that's a hit.

"Sail On, Sailor" got into the 40s I'm pretty sure.

So I'd say he had two hits. Not huge, record breaking hits like "Hey Jude" or "Good Vibrations", but solid hits that still feature on compilations to this day.

[Mikie]

All I care about is one thing with Van Dyke. See if somebody here has the correct answer. Cam, do you know about this?

Why didn't Van Dyke Parks contribute an essay to the book that came with The Smile Sessions box in 2011?  He was around for BWPS in '04, contributing additional lyrics and attending the SMiLE show in the UK. Did he really feel that he'd said enough over the years about Smile?  Or did he just not want to take any hoopla/accolades/media press away from Brian after the release? Or did something happen between 2004 and 2011 to alienate VDP from the Brian/Beach Boys camp?  Do you think an essay was prepared but aborted just prior to the book going to the printers?

[Cam Mott]

All I care about is one thing with Van Dyke. See if somebody here has the correct answer. Cam, do you know about this?

Why didn't Van Dyke Parks contribute an essay to the book that came with The Smile Sessions box in 2011?  He was around for BWPS in '04, contributing additional lyrics and attending the SMiLE show in the UK. Did he really feel that he'd said enough over the years about Smile?  Or did he just not want to take any hoopla/accolades/media press away from Brian after the release? Or did something happen between 2004 and 2011 to alienate VDP from the Brian/Beach Boys camp?  Do you think an essay was prepared but aborted just prior to the book going to the printers?

Don't know a thing about it, Mikie.

[Micha]

I pulled out the video. Van is outside of a Tower Records store, it looks like the mid-late 1970s, and he says, or at least mostly sounds like he says, "I wrote lyrics for Brian Wilson. Most of 'em, when an album was done called Pet Sounds, uhh, which readied us for the next record, which uhhh...still is an unexplained event, I don't understand it. It was just after the Beach Boys were in litigation with Capitol Records."

That probably means, while or just after Pet Sounds was finished, Brian and him wrote the songs for SMiLE. I'm certain anyway that he would have worded it differently had he had the chance to write his words down.

Far from being Eisenhower-nostalgia leftovers, the Beach Boys were strongly connected to the pop-musical zeitgeist 1962-66. It was only after VDP hooked up with Brian that the group lost touch with the cutting edge of what was happening in pop music (through no fault of VDP, granted).

Ooh, very interesting point: his association with the band was the beginning of the public decline of the group. Quite ironic that he considers the band before his involvement as the out-of-touch phase, despite this being apparently the complete opposite.

I agree.

IMHO, the decline in popularity began with Pet Sounds, was paused with GV, and then went on. An idea I just had: Pet Sounds might have been more popular had it been rereleased before Christmas 1966 with GV added as another track.

[Cam Mott]

I pulled out the video. Van is outside of a Tower Records store, it looks like the mid-late 1970s, and he says, or at least mostly sounds like he says, "I wrote lyrics for Brian Wilson. Most of 'em, when an album was done called Pet Sounds, uhh, which readied us for the next record, which uhhh...still is an unexplained event, I don't understand it. It was just after the Beach Boys were in litigation with Capitol Records."

That probably means, while or just after Pet Sounds was finished, Brian and him wrote the songs for SMiLE. I'm certain anyway that he would have worded it differently had he had the chance to write his words down.

Far from being Eisenhower-nostalgia leftovers, the Beach Boys were strongly connected to the pop-musical zeitgeist 1962-66. It was only after VDP hooked up with Brian that the group lost touch with the cutting edge of what was happening in pop music (through no fault of VDP, granted).

Ooh, very interesting point: his association with the band was the beginning of the public decline of the group. Quite ironic that he considers the band before his involvement as the out-of-touch phase, despite this being apparently the complete opposite.

I agree.

IMHO, the decline in popularity began with Pet Sounds, was paused with GV, and then went on. An idea I just had: Pet Sounds might have been more popular had it been rereleased before Christmas 1966 with GV added as another track.

Pet Sounds was more popular then we used to think and was certainly much better promoted then was recognized but I agree it probably was part of the falling out between Brian [in the beginning and other Boys later] and their fan base. You see it reflected in the fan magazine letters and in sales. On the other hand don't you think Brian really stomped down on the accelerator of fan base alienation during SMiLE?

[urbanite]

I agree and I think part of its less than stellar commercial success is attributable to its title (poor choice) and dumb cover.