Is SMiLE One Big Dream?

[Bill Tobelman]

In a dream you can have lots of seemingly unrelated subjects coming together & not making sense (they make sense in a dream). In a dream you can have two points of view (like Van Dyke's lyrics & Frank Holmes' drawings together in the SMiLE booklet).

If "Surf's Up" is a dream then Brian might play it with his eyes closed as if in a dream (as he actually did for the Inside Pop TV thing).

Van Dyke Parks ended his piece for the BWPS tour booklet with the phrase, "Don't Awaken Me." This appears to possibly be a reference to a dream.

Brian explained "Surf's Up" to Jules Siegel with a line, "He's off in his vision, on a dream."

Being that SMiLE was to be the real deal---to beat Sgt. Peppers in the race to "the MOMENT"---when the positive aspects, potentials, and possibilities of the psychedelic movement crystallized---it seems like this DREAM thing seems appropriate for its time.

My personal SMiLE sequence explains how all the "Heroes & Villains" stuff could promote the dream idea. http://www.goodhumorsmile.com/page23.htm

[Grayhands]

Pretty neat idea, the lyrics and imagery definitely feel like it sometimes. I would imagine 'Fire' is the nightmare part of the dream eh

[Moon Dawg]

  Once had a dream where The Beach Boys were riding horses in the West to the tune of "Heroes and Villains".

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I had a dream where I discovered an early 80s action movie with Dennis and Carl called 'Life is for the Living'

[pixletwin]

I like this dream theory. It rings true.

[Mikie]

Well, I dreamed I saw the silver spaceships flying in the yellow haze of the sun. There were children crying and colors flying all around the chosen ones. All in a dream, all in a dream, the loading had begun.

[Custom Machine]

Well, I dreamed I saw the silver spaceships flying in the yellow haze of the sun. There were children crying and colors flying all around the chosen ones. All in a dream, all in a dream, the loading had begun.

So when Van Dyke left the Smile project maybe Neil Young should have stepped forward as Brian's new collaborator.

[bgas]

Well, I dreamed I saw the silver spaceships flying in the yellow haze of the sun. There were children crying and colors flying all around the chosen ones. All in a dream, all in a dream, the loading had begun.

So when Van Dyke left the Smile project maybe Neil Young should have stepped forward as Brian's new collaborator.

Perhaps he did and stepped into Mike's Psyche

[Mikie]

Well, I dreamed I saw the silver spaceships flying in the yellow haze of the sun. There were children crying and colors flying all around the chosen ones. All in a dream, all in a dream, the loading had begun.

So when Van Dyke left the Smile project maybe Neil Young should have stepped forward as Brian's new collaborator.

Neil woulda been a great collaborator.  And wasn't he considered to be a Brother Records artist early in his solo career?

[leggo of my ego]

I think this is interesting and also supports having Good Vibrations at the end of the sequence.

Good Vibrations is not part of the dream but is the Awakening --

[Don Malcolm]

Your thoughts on SMiLE are always stimulating, Bill. Dreams can be modular, too--where pieces of a dream appear in different combinations. And let's not forget that people who take LSD sometimes have trouble determining whether they're awake or in a dream, or in some liminal state ("the waking dream").

[Moon Dawg]

Well, I dreamed I saw the silver spaceships flying in the yellow haze of the sun. There were children crying and colors flying all around the chosen ones. All in a dream, all in a dream, the loading had begun.

So when Van Dyke left the Smile project maybe Neil Young should have stepped forward as Brian's new collaborator.

 Mike and Neil have been friends to some degree for years, but man oh man would Mike be mad if Neil ever got Brian in that proverbial room.

Perhaps he did and stepped into Mike's Psyche

[filledeplage]

In a dream you can have lots of seemingly unrelated subjects coming together & not making sense (they make sense in a dream). In a dream you can have two points of view (like Van Dyke's lyrics & Frank Holmes' drawings together in the SMiLE booklet).

If "Surf's Up" is a dream then Brian might play it with his eyes closed as if in a dream (as he actually did for the Inside Pop TV thing).

Van Dyke Parks ended his piece for the BWPS tour booklet with the phrase, "Don't Awaken Me." This appears to possibly be a reference to a dream.

Brian explained "Surf's Up" to Jules Siegel with a line, "He's off in his vision, on a dream."

Being that SMiLE was to be the real deal---to beat Sgt. Peppers in the race to "the MOMENT"---when the positive aspects, potentials, and possibilities of the psychedelic movement crystallized---it seems like this DREAM thing seems appropriate for its time.

My personal SMiLE sequence explains how all the "Heroes & Villains" stuff could promote the dream idea. http://www.goodhumorsmile.com/page23.htm

(Quote)

Bill - "dreams" and "visions" operate under two different streams, despite some semantic confusion. The first, "dream" supposes generally, that there is less "control" over the work.  And the second, "vision" conjures a sense of precision and determination, rather than some willy-nilly concept of no control. From interviews of musicians who played on Good Vibrations, it seems that Brian would have musicians in the studio for either ten minutes, or ten hours, and call the session over when Brian achieved a result that was perhaps not apparent to the session musician. My sense is that Brian had more of a "vision" that was more precise than is generally accepted, and that although a certain amount of "stream-of-consciousness" interspersed with a real plan.  

Dennis has an amazing interview, done by Fornatale, on Youtube, that I've listened to at least a dozen times, because each time I learn something new.  And I'm still blown away by his candor, and perspective about who, exactly held the reins, the deference that the rest of the band members had for Brian's music, absolutely blowing away this myth that the rest of the members, dissented about the direction the band should go in.  And, with all this attention on The Beatles coming to the States, that they were happy with the direction that Brian was taking, musically, as a result of the touring, political awakening, of enlarging the scope of the music.

Dennis is also specific about the effect of substance use.  But that it doesn't appear to cross over, in his view, until 20/20, which gives us a clue as to a time-line, where the others were trying their hand at production, and that there wasn't any power struggle has been represented.  Dennis says, "We aren't that kind of band." And if "someone wanted to do production, they just did." (Sorry for the digression.) Some of these new clips on YouTube reveal how things worked, rather than second-hand spin.  But, what he is clear about is his well-founded fear that it would have caused his brother permanent brain damage.  

And, I am unconvinced that SMiLE is a drug-product of LSD, whether it was used or not. This whole psychedelic art-music intersection was more market-driven, and short-lived, not unlike disco, in my view. If GV was recorded, in deliberate segments, it appears that Brian was in complete control, otherwise, the product wouldn't have turned out as well. When Brian did Surf's Up for Leonard Bernstein, he appears to be completely in control of his own "vision" and deference is shown by Bernstein, consistent with that, with focus of the documentary, on "young up-and-coming" composers.

"Dreams" and "visions" have an overlapping semantic, but, my sense is that the music was driven by a "concept or vision," with deliberation,  from "within," rather than, a more "passive dream" coming from "without" from an intrusive outside hallucinogenic force, such as lysergic acid, (from ergot fungus) which is now enjoying a second look for treating other conditions in a "medical context" in a hospital setting, rather than the uncontrolled ingestion of that era, in a more social context.

JMHO, of course...

[bgas]

In a dream you can have lots of seemingly unrelated subjects coming together & not making sense (they make sense in a dream). In a dream you can have two points of view (like Van Dyke's lyrics & Frank Holmes' drawings together in the SMiLE booklet).

If "Surf's Up" is a dream then Brian might play it with his eyes closed as if in a dream (as he actually did for the Inside Pop TV thing).

Van Dyke Parks ended his piece for the BWPS tour booklet with the phrase, "Don't Awaken Me." This appears to possibly be a reference to a dream.

Brian explained "Surf's Up" to Jules Siegel with a line, "He's off in his vision, on a dream."

Being that SMiLE was to be the real deal---to beat Sgt. Peppers in the race to "the MOMENT"---when the positive aspects, potentials, and possibilities of the psychedelic movement crystallized---it seems like this DREAM thing seems appropriate for its time.

My personal SMiLE sequence explains how all the "Heroes & Villains" stuff could promote the dream idea. http://www.goodhumorsmile.com/page23.htm

(Quote)

Bill - "dreams" and "visions" operate under two different streams, despite some semantic confusion. The first, "dream" supposes generally, that there is less "control" over the work.  And the second, "vision" conjures a sense of precision and determination, rather than some willy-nilly concept of no control. From interviews of musicians who played on Good Vibrations, it seems that Brian would have musicians in the studio for either ten minutes, or ten hours, and call the session over when Brian achieved a result that was perhaps not apparent to the session musician. My sense is that Brian had more of a "vision" that was more precise than is generally accepted, and that although a certain amount of "stream-of-consciousness" interspersed with a real plan.  

Dennis has an amazing interview, done by Fornatale, on Youtube, that I've listened to at least a dozen times, because each time I learn something new.  And I'm still blown away by his candor, and perspective about who, exactly held the reins, the deference that the rest of the band members had for Brian's music, absolutely blowing away this myth that the rest of the members, dissented about the direction the band should go in.  And, with all this attention on The Beatles coming to the States, that they were happy with the direction that Brian was taking, musically, as a result of the touring, political awakening, of enlarging the scope of the music.

Dennis is also specific about the effect of substance use.  But that it doesn't appear to cross over, in his view, until 20/20, which gives us a clue as to a time-line, where the others were trying their hand at production, and that there wasn't any power struggle has been represented.  Dennis says, "We aren't that kind of band." And if "someone wanted to do production, they just did." (Sorry for the digression.) Some of these new clips on YouTube reveal how things worked, rather than second-hand spin.  But, what he is clear about is his well-founded fear that it would have caused his brother permanent brain damage.  

And, I am unconvinced that SMiLE is a drug-product of LSD, whether it was used or not. This whole psychedelic art-music intersection was more market-driven, and short-lived, not unlike disco, in my view. If GV was recorded, in deliberate segments, it appears that Brian was in complete control, otherwise, the product wouldn't have turned out as well. When Brian did Surf's Up for Leonard Bernstein, he appears to be completely in control of his own "vision" and deference is shown by Bernstein, consistent with that, with focus of the documentary, on "young up-and-coming" composers.

"Dreams" and "visions" have an overlapping semantic, but, my sense is that the music was driven by a "concept or vision," with deliberation,  from "within," rather than, a more "passive dream" coming from "without" from an intrusive outside hallucinogenic force, such as lysergic acid, (from ergot fungus) which is now enjoying a second look for treating other conditions in a "medical context" in a hospital setting, rather than the uncontrolled ingestion of that era, in a more social context.

JMHO, of course...

Know it's been mentioned before, but you REALLY need to learn how to quote and post, or just not do it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

... and it's really very simple:

1 - hit "quote" button.

2 - (this is the important bit) scroll all the way down to the LAST [/quote] you can see... or just all the way to the bottom of the reply box, which is the same thing.

3 - type your reply after it.

[RangeRoverA1]

That was theory, here's the real deal: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,6005.0.html

On topic, it is a very fascinating theory, Mr. Tobelman. I didn't look at Smile that way.

[Micha]

My sense is that Brian had more of a "vision" that was more precise than is generally accepted, and that although a certain amount of "stream-of-consciousness" interspersed with a real plan.

His vision does not seem to have been precise enough to just record what was needed and then finish it, like he did with Pet Sounds. How many times did he change H&V around?

If GV was recorded, in deliberate segments, it appears that Brian was in complete control, otherwise, the product wouldn't have turned out as well.

Only that it wasn't recorded in deliberate sections. The only section that was recorded separately is the organ bridge. All other sections were taken from recordings of the whole song, IIRC

[filledeplage]

My sense is that Brian had more of a "vision" that was more precise than is generally accepted, and that although a certain amount of "stream-of-consciousness" interspersed with a real plan.

His vision does not seem to have been precise enough to just record what was needed and then finish it, like he did with Pet Sounds. How many times did he change H&V around?

If GV was recorded, in deliberate segments, it appears that Brian was in complete control, otherwise, the product wouldn't have turned out as well.

Only that it wasn't recorded in deliberate sections. The only section that was recorded separately is the organ bridge. All other sections were taken from recordings of the whole song, IIRC

Micha - I was relying on what I had seen on the Wrecking Crew movie.  On jazzwax.com there is an interview with Hal Blaine and a whole page of goodies, including clips of the sessions, in black and white, and one with the ever cute "Dennis wink!"  The interview is from 2012.  

Since I was not there, I'm relying on those who were.  And if you check out the Dennis interview with Fornatale, you'll hear a different version of a time line.  I find Dennis a reliable witness as well.  Is he biased? Ya, but he has an "informed opinion" because he was there and demonstrates an endearingly protective quality where Brian is concerned, at that time.  It is on YouTube and entitled, "Dennis Wilson - Pete Fornatale Interview 1976."

[Bill Tobelman]

I want to thank everyone for their thoughts on this thread so far.

Brian Wilson's favorite book around the time of SMiLE was Arthur Koestler's THE ACT OF CREATION which placed great importance upon dreaming because it was through this process (and it's combining of seemingly unrelated thoughts) that the greatest and most important discoveries & acts of intellectual evolution (science) happened.

I think Brian Wilson considered genuine spiritual experience on this kind of level.

All these things are related and interconnected. The dream, the discovery, and the spiritual experience. If anyone doubts such a connection I encourage them to read Koesler's accounts of Johannes Kepler's discoveries.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I want to thank everyone for their thoughts on this thread so far.

Brian Wilson's favorite book around the time of SMiLE was Arthur Koestler's THE ACT OF CREATION which placed great importance upon dreaming because it was through this process (and it's combining of seemingly unrelated thoughts) that the greatest and most important discoveries & acts of intellectual evolution (science) happened.

I think Brian Wilson considered genuine spiritual experience on this kind of level.

All these things are related and interconnected. The dream, the discovery, and the spiritual experience. If anyone doubts such a connection I encourage them to read Koesler's accounts of Johannes Kepler's discoveries.

That's a hugely sweeping statement, and mostly inaccurate, I would beg to submit. One, it doesn't apply to all "the greatest discoveries and acts" - example: Archimedes wasn't dreaming when he noticed the bath overflowing when he got into it... Copernicus arrived at his heliocentric model for the solar system through years of patient & careful observation and deduction - and two, I feel that Eisnstein was closer to the actual process you're thinking of with his famous Gedankenexperimenten.

I deeply admire the depth of Bill's research in this area, his ability to present same, and also his ability to admit when he's been heading down the wrong road... but statements such as that above tend to make me go "hmmmm...".

[Loaf]

I want to thank everyone for their thoughts on this thread so far.

Brian Wilson's favorite book around the time of SMiLE was Arthur Koestler's THE ACT OF CREATION which placed great importance upon dreaming because it was through this process (and it's combining of seemingly unrelated thoughts) that the greatest and most important discoveries & acts of intellectual evolution (science) happened.

I think Brian Wilson considered genuine spiritual experience on this kind of level.

All these things are related and interconnected. The dream, the discovery, and the spiritual experience. If anyone doubts such a connection I encourage them to read Koesler's accounts of Johannes Kepler's discoveries.

That's a hugely sweeping statement, and mostly inaccurate, I would beg to submit. One, it doesn't apply to all "the greatest discoveries and acts" - example: Archimedes wasn't dreaming when he noticed the bath overflowing when he got into it... Copernicus arrived at his heliocentric model for the solar system through years of patient & careful observation and deduction - and two, I feel that Eisnstein was closer to the actual process you're thinking of with his famous Gedankenexperimenten.

I deeply admire the depth of Bill's research in this area, his ability to present same, and also his ability to admit when he's been heading down the wrong road... but statements such as that above tend to make me go "hmmmm...".

Agreed. Bill, I love your research, writing and website on Smile, but the statement Andrew highlighted is a pop-science fallacy. Edward Jenner, John Snow, Alexander Fleming, Dorothy Hodgkin, Watson&Crick&Wilkins&Franklin, Paul Dirac etc... none of these discoverers of massive scientific advances were dreaming. Years of solid research, intellectual rigour and training went into their work, rather than some vaguely ethereal medium of dreaming

Art, on the other hand, i'll grant you (McCartney and Yesterday, Richards and Satisfaction). But science? No.

[Gabo]

Maybe the Don't Awaken Me is a comment on the fact that Smile is a legendary, mythical album. It is a "dream" that it was eventually "finished" and released.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Van Dyke Parks ended his piece for the BWPS tour booklet with the phrase, "Don't Awaken Me." This appears to possibly be a reference to a dream.

A reminder that what appeared in the box set booklet wasn't written specifically for that project.

[Micha]

My sense is that Brian had more of a "vision" that was more precise than is generally accepted, and that although a certain amount of "stream-of-consciousness" interspersed with a real plan.

His vision does not seem to have been precise enough to just record what was needed and then finish it, like he did with Pet Sounds. How many times did he change H&V around?

If GV was recorded, in deliberate segments, it appears that Brian was in complete control, otherwise, the product wouldn't have turned out as well.

Only that it wasn't recorded in deliberate sections. The only section that was recorded separately is the organ bridge. All other sections were taken from recordings of the whole song, IIRC

Micha - I was relying on what I had seen on the Wrecking Crew movie.  On jazzwax.com there is an interview with Hal Blaine and a whole page of goodies, including clips of the sessions, in black and white, and one with the ever cute "Dennis wink!"  The interview is from 2012.  

Since I was not there, I'm relying on those who were.  And if you check out the Dennis interview with Fornatale, you'll hear a different version of a time line.  I find Dennis a reliable witness as well.  Is he biased? Ya, but he has an "informed opinion" because he was there and demonstrates an endearingly protective quality where Brian is concerned, at that time.  It is on YouTube and entitled, "Dennis Wilson - Pete Fornatale Interview 1976."

It's probably just me being dumb, but I don't understand what you are trying to tell me or what it has to do with what I wrote. I'm relly sorry about that.

[filledeplage]

My sense is that Brian had more of a "vision" that was more precise than is generally accepted, and that although a certain amount of "stream-of-consciousness" interspersed with a real plan.

His vision does not seem to have been precise enough to just record what was needed and then finish it, like he did with Pet Sounds. How many times did he change H&V around?

If GV was recorded, in deliberate segments, it appears that Brian was in complete control, otherwise, the product wouldn't have turned out as well.

Only that it wasn't recorded in deliberate sections. The only section that was recorded separately is the organ bridge. All other sections were taken from recordings of the whole song, IIRC

Micha - I was relying on what I had seen on the Wrecking Crew movie.  On jazzwax.com there is an interview with Hal Blaine and a whole page of goodies, including clips of the sessions, in black and white, and one with the ever cute "Dennis wink!"  The interview is from 2012.  

Since I was not there, I'm relying on those who were.  And if you check out the Dennis interview with Fornatale, you'll hear a different version of a time line.  I find Dennis a reliable witness as well.  Is he biased? Ya, but he has an "informed opinion" because he was there and demonstrates an endearingly protective quality where Brian is concerned, at that time.  It is on YouTube and entitled, "Dennis Wilson - Pete Fornatale Interview 1976."

It's probably just me being dumb, but I don't understand what you are trying to tell me or what it has to do with what I wrote. I'm relly sorry about that.

Micha - First, you are not dumb. Second, if you find the interview, which I have on my Roku streamer from the new YouTube official channel, (Finally!) you can get a clear sense from Dennis about what actually went down during that era, rather than rely on a theorist, (and I mean no disrespect) and an attempt to extrapolate what was going on, but from an eyewitness/participant.

Dennis has so few interviews, but this is so articulate and so appreciative of his brother while yet speaking to his grave concern as to damage as a result of the drugs.  And, if "this book" was a favorite of Brian's, why wasn't it possible that it was Brian's non- hallucinated brain doing the work, after all; Brian was a "visionary" in the true sense before he allegedly had "trips" (bad ones) from a questionable substances, together with his amazing capacity to give a "voice" to obscure and some newly-developed instrumentation? What is clear, from Dennis' account, concerns the actual "windows of time" that Brian was productive, from Dennis' viewpoint, strictly. Dennis (and the family/band members) reportedly had well-founded concerns for Brian.

 I'm not on a computer but an ipad, so I can't link the interview.  But I'm not giving lysergic acid all the credit for more abstract Brian's, work.  And, Dennis seems quite clear about his concerns about permanent brain damage.  And an eyewitness account always rates higher than a (pseudo-science, in my opinion) theory in my book. And, I mean no offense those who find it credible.

But, having spent decades in academia, lots of theories float out there in search of a grade for a student, or of some graduate level research funding, and exactly why I'm skeptical.

There just isn't enough actual neuro-medical evidence to back it up, as it is such an emerging area, with brain scanners in place only recently, primarily developed for addiction medicine.  And, Dennis' account, which seems SO credible to me.  I hope it doesn't become reduced to a student term paper or some graduate/doctoral work, based on what appears (in my view) to have a very weak  nexus.

Brian was well on his way to more complex and abstract work, in a prefiguration context, with stuff such as "Please Let Me Wonder" and even the instrumental, "Summer Means New Love," which is starting to usher in new, and more complex work.

JMHO and Happy weekend to all!