Once Upon a Time… – a hypothetical question.

[Niko]

That's a pretty brilliant plan

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENT

Thank you all for taking time to write and to consider just how much value you personally place on the Beach Boy brand.

For some of you their music transcends any economic measure. Others have a more practical view and see what monetary gain could accomplish for others and are willing to make the sacrifice.

As with any lifeboat situation, what you might really do, you do not know until confronted with the actual, real and living situation. But it is fun to conjecture and such exercises in possibilities lend insight into each person’s own internal attitudes.

Perhaps one measure of value that could be placed on the Beach Boy brand, and thus act as a guide to its monetary value – in exchange for its removal from your awareness – would be to examine the actual world value of the brand.

Since 1998, the corporate entity Brothers Record Inc (BRI), equally owns, in 25% shares by Brian Wilson, the estate of Carl Wilson, Mike Love, and Al Jardine, the registered trademark of “The Beach Boys.” Brian’s personal worth is estimated to be 75 million and growing. Michael continues to use the trademark in concert tours keeping a net of 15% of all gross receipts, so his worth is growing and is now estimated at 50 million. According to court documents Mike contends that between 1998 and 2005 he made around 55 million in royalities alone. Carl’s estate and Alan come in at an estimated 35 million. Dennis’ estate at around 20 million. Bruce is worth more, but his estate is made up of properties outside the Beach Boys, due to his success with writing songs for other people. So even though only Mike and Bruce are on stage, everyone shares in the income and is therefore still gaining from live events. That’s around 200 million for the group’s members and their survivors.

Usually you can figure that any artist will retain about 10% of the intellectual property rights of their endeavors if involved in commerce, which when extrapolated would place a value of two-billion dollars on that part of all income for the various record companies that have owned the rights to distribution. This is, of course, a projection or supposed value based on a general history of how it all works. Over the last 50 years the Beach Boy brand has had a cyclic ride, sum highs and some lows, so a more realistic projection may be a total more like one-billion dollars for the last 50 years. One billion over a 50-year lifespan is 20 million per year of income from this brand. That may seem a bit too much, but consider that this treasure represents worldwide sales of their entire catalog, plus royalty payments from broadcasts, plus concert income. We’re talking gross here, not after taxes or after expenses. The figures drop considerably when deductions are made.

I have not included Ricky or Blondie in the brand, as they are salaried employees of the corporation. Not being participants in the trademark or having any seat on the BRI board of directors they are as much “Beach Boy” as Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks or Jack Rieley – sort of the CC” of the authentic group or token visitors from another group, The Flame. Besides, their worth is minor compared to the original group of six. Many of you relate to the brand through CD’s or the Internet and may take issue with my views, but I relate to the brand through LP’s 45’s and live shows featuring the three brothers and three friends of long standing.

This total figure, whatever it is, one could say represents the value that the planet places on the Beach Boy brand. However the Genie isn’t wiping the Beach Boy brand from the entire planet in exchange for a lump sum, rather just one fan – you. So at first, asking for a billion dollars in exchange may seem way out of proportion, but when looking at the overall fifty years of activity, one billion could be warranted. Even if we exclude all the income from concerts tours and performances, over all the years they have sold over 100 million units at an average price of ten bucks each. That is one billion dollars gross.~ swd

[Nicko1234]

COMMENT

Thank you all for taking time to write and to consider just how much value you personally place on the Beach Boy brand.

For some of you their music transcends any economic measure. Others have a more practical view and see what monetary gain could accomplish for others and are willing to make the sacrifice.

As with any lifeboat situation, what you might really do, you do not know until confronted with the actual, real and living situation. But it is fun to conjecture and such exercises in possibilities lend insight into each person’s own internal attitudes.

Perhaps one measure of value that could be placed on the Beach Boy brand, and thus act as a guide to its monetary value – in exchange for its removal from your awareness – would be to examine the actual world value of the brand.

Since 1998, the corporate entity Brothers Record Inc (BRI), equally owns, in 25% shares by Brian Wilson, the estate of Carl Wilson, Mike Love, and Al Jardine, the registered trademark of “The Beach Boys.” Brian’s personal worth is estimated to be 75 million and growing. Michael continues to use the trademark in concert tours keeping a net of 15% of all gross receipts, so his worth is growing and is now estimated at 50 million. According to court documents Mike contends that between 1998 and 2005 he made around 55 million in royalities alone. Carl’s estate and Alan come in at an estimated 35 million. Dennis’ estate at around 20 million. Bruce is worth more, but his estate is made up of properties outside the Beach Boys, due to his success with writing songs for other people. So even though only Mike and Bruce are on stage, everyone shares in the income and is therefore still gaining from live events. That’s around 200 million for the group’s members and their survivors.

Usually you can figure that any artist will retain about 10% of the intellectual property rights of their endeavors if involved in commerce, which when extrapolated would place a value of two-billion dollars on that part of all income for the various record companies that have owned the rights to distribution. This is, of course, a projection or supposed value based on a general history of how it all works. Over the last 50 years the Beach Boy brand has had a cyclic ride, sum highs and some lows, so a more realistic projection may be a total more like one-billion dollars for the last 50 years. One billion over a 50-year lifespan is 20 million per year of income from this brand. That may seem a bit too much, but consider that this treasure represents worldwide sales of their entire catalog, plus royalty payments from broadcasts, plus concert income. We’re talking gross here, not after taxes or after expenses. The figures drop considerably when deductions are made.

I have not included Ricky or Blondie in the brand, as they are salaried employees of the corporation. Not being participants in the trademark or having any seat on the BRI board of directors they are as much “Beach Boy” as Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks or Jack Rieley – sort of the CC” of the authentic group or token visitors from another group, The Flame. Besides, their worth is minor compared to the original group of six. Many of you relate to the brand through CD’s or the Internet and may take issue with my views, but I relate to the brand through LP’s 45’s and live shows featuring the three brothers and three friends of long standing.

This total figure, whatever it is, one could say represents the value that the planet places on the Beach Boy brand. However the Genie isn’t wiping the Beach Boy brand from the entire planet in exchange for a lump sum, rather just one fan – you. So at first, asking for a billion dollars in exchange may seem way out of proportion, but when looking at the overall fifty years of activity, one billion could be warranted. Even if we exclude all the income from concerts tours and performances, over all the years they have sold over 100 million units at an average price of ten bucks each. That is one billion dollars gross.~ swd

An interesting post.

I can imagine some might pick up on this point.

[The Shift]

The value has to be much much higher in reality. One could argue that a lot of Brian, Al, Carl Dennis and Dave's solo sales and concerts are wracked up on the strength of their association in the public's perception, with The Beach Boys brand.

And it doesn't, of course, even start to take into account re-sales – second-hand values of music and memorabilia on eBay and elsewhere (where one of two here probably spend a billion a year from their personal wealth!).

Then there're T-shirt sales, programme sales, biography sales, poster sales, Brian doll sales, Panini sticker sales… you could probably count sales of albums by members of BW's band, as they're likely boosted simply by association with Brian and therefore, down the line, with The Beach Boys.

I suppose that line of thinking could continue eternally … it's fascinating, and likely incalculable. Could you start to estimate how many jobs The Beach Boys brand helps support, indirectly, in this manner?

[Loves The Sunflower]

If this genie is willing to make me a comparable offer with the "music" of, say, Nicki Minaj, I'd accept $3,000,000 and it'd be a win/win scenario for me.

However, stripping me of the ability to ever hear The Beach Boys again... much as I'd appreciate and enjoy the money and the possibilities it would present, I think I'd have to pass. Part of me can't believe I just wrote that...

[JK]

Did I dream it, or did I read the words "Beach Boy brand" somewhere in this topic? Brand?? Luckily i also read the word "hypothetical". ;=)

[Stephen W. Desper]

Did I dream it, or did I read the words "Beach Boy brand" somewhere in this topic? Brand?? Luckily i also read the word "hypothetical". ;=)

COMMENT:   You did read "brand" and it's not hypothetical, it is very real.  The Beach Boy brand covers any and all commercial products that bear the registered trademark "Beach Boys®" That is the proper business term for any trademark used in commerce.  The Beach Boys® or Beach Boys® is a considered a brand. If you are not involved in business it may seem strange, but it is the proper term just as Ford®, Apple® or Coke® are brands.

US GOVERNMENT TRADEMARK RESISTRATION

MARK-----------------   SERIAL NUMBER--------REGISTRATION NUMBER

Beach Boy------------   86053221
The Beach Boys------   85702419---------------44333632
The Beach Boys------   76363052---------------2631628
The Beach Boys------   73059442---------------73059442
Beach Boy------------   86053221
The Beach Boys------   85702419---------------4433632

If you go to the US Government Trademark Office link (below) and click on any of the numbers, it will tell you the date and use of each mark. The site may time-out. If so, click on the blue "trademark" box and then re-enter "Beach Boys" in the query box.

http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=toc&state=4806%3A1y1t8e.1.1&p_search=searchss&p_L=50&BackReference=&p_plural=yes&p_s_PARA1=&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA1%24LD&expr=PARA1+AND+PARA2&p_s_PARA2=Beach+Boys&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA2%24COMB&p_op_ALL=AND&a_default=search&a_search=Submit+Query&a_search=Submit+Query

The business of music is a business.

~SWD

[JK]

Wow. That's quite an eye-opener. Thank you, sir. If posting without due consideration gets results like this, i should do it more often. ;=)

[halblaineisgood]

.

[bgas]

SWD has 666 posts.  I am freaked out.

Oh COOL!  My favorite number !!!  Neat you noticed

[Stephen W. Desper]

SWD has 666 posts.  I am freaked out.

RATS !!   My cover is blown! 

[guitarfool2002]

It is surprising to read some of the posts here and in the "did radio turn its back on the Beach Boys" thread and get the impression sometimes that folks consider the music business and the radio business and anything related to be other than about the money. Most of what we get as fans of the Beach Boys has been researched, marketed, and delivered as a branded item designed to make money, just like the romanticized notion of radio DJ's spinning records they "believe in" because they want to promote the artist or the music is a notion that comes from Hollywood films. Not that it doesn't happen on some non-network stations or that some old-school AM DJ's wouldn't spin records of their choice, but all of that pretty much ended with corporate FM in the 70's.

Beach Boys = Coca Cola. Simple equation! 


I'd still ask that the Genie consider taking requests to silence certain annoying artists and public figures for a fee. My list is a simple one.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I think if you take Mr. Desper's question seriously and practically, there is one aspect that has to affect the answer to some degree, and that is age.

When you are a young or new Beach Boys' fan, and I'm talking serious diehard, you probably wouldn't give up the "experience" for anything. You're enthralled by discovering and purchasing new/old music, you're traveling to every BB-related concert your car will take you to, you're reading every book and article you can find, you're combing through YouTube videos, you're probably a collector to some degree, you are committed to spreading the gospel according to The Beach Boys, and you're spending way too much time on message boards. You are hooked and it's a wonderful thing. It is an unbelievable feeling and "experience". Not to sound too hokey but your life will never be the same. And you probably can't conceive of giving it up...for anything.

But a funny thing happens. You get older. You've accumulated all the music, released and (cough) unreleased. You've listened to the music for decades. You've seen dozens of concerts. You've read all the books. You might even go from buying BB stuff to eventually selling it. You might be burned out on spreading the word. And, maybe you've said everything you wanted to say on the message boards! This might be hard to believe for many fans, again for those who might be new(er) in their Beach Boys' devotion, but you do peak in your fandom. And, while YOU WILL ALWAYS LOVE AND CHERISH THE MUSIC, there is an inevitable fading in your active Beach Boys' experience. I don't know if I'm expressing it properly, and I don't mean to be negative, because I'm not. I'm just trying to give a perspective, one which I have experienced.

Two other things happen with age - both good. First, you expand your musical horizons over time. Think of all the artists/groups you now listen to that you never imagined getting into years ago. It might astound you. They might not "knock" the Beach Boys out of the top spot on your list or in your heart, but they do take up listening time that was once occupied by The Beach Boys. You will always have your love of Beach Boys' music, but, believe it or not, that love will not always be as intense as it was at the peak of your fandom; that's common sense. But, also, you will grow to love other groups that, again, won't quite reach that level of Beach Boys' diehard-ism, but will have a wonderfully positive effect on your musical life.

Finally, many other things will come into your life that take on more important meanings - your wife/husband, your children, your family and friends, births and deaths, health issues, financial concerns, careers and vocations, and other ways of spending your free time. In other words, you go through a lot of changes. It's called living.

Along the way, one thing is certain. Your values will change. Yes, absolutely, you will always love and cherish The Beach Boys' music. You might even play it every day for the rest of your life. But....I'm wondering how and if it (the music) would take precedence over other values, financially speaking, and that is the question proposed in this thread. Mortgage payments, rent, doctor bills, hospital bills, college tuition (for you or your children), charities, church offerings, and just plain old financial security. That's reality for most people. You wake up and, all of a sudden, those things are taking on more importance, and other things are put on the back burner.

When you take EVERYTHING into account - and get older - the answer to Mr. Desper's question isn't as clear cut as you might think. Well, for me anyway.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jTmXHvGZiSY

[Custom Machine]

Sidestepping this question, while agreeing with MDH's statement that "Beach Boys music is priceless!" in the past the hypothetical question I used to ask myself was "If you had to choose between listening to only the music of The Beach Boys or to all other music ever recorded, which would you choose?"  My answer for many years was "I'd choose the music of the Beach Boys and give up all other recorded music." 

Today my answer would be the opposite, not only because I've heard the BBs stuff over and over and over and over, but also because throughout the years I have found more and more music that really appeals to me.  (As Sheriff John Stone said, "Two other things happen with age - both good. First, you expand your musical horizons over time ...") (Although I know a bunch of people whose horizons never expanded much and who mainly just want to listen to the music of their youth.)

The other hypothetical question I would ask myself was "If you had to choose only one single disc album which was originally released as new material (ie, no greatest hits or various artists compilations), and that was all you could ever listen to, which album would you choose?"  My answer to that question has remained the same for over 43 years - Sunflower.

[bgas]

Sidestepping this question, while agreeing with MDH's statement that "Beach Boys music is priceless!" in the past the hypothetical question I used to ask myself was "If you had to choose between listening to only the music of The Beach Boys or to all other music ever recorded, which would you choose?"  My answer for many years was "I'd choose the music of the Beach Boys and give up all other recorded music." 

Today my answer would be the opposite, not only because I've heard the BBs stuff over and over and over and over, but also because throughout the years I have found more and more music that really appeals to me.  (As Sheriff John Stone said, "Two other things happen with age - both good. First, you expand your musical horizons over time ...") (Although I know a bunch of people whose horizons never expanded much and who mainly just want to listen to the music of their youth.)

The other hypothetical question I would ask myself was "If you had to choose only one single disc album which was originally released as new material (ie, no greatest hits or various artists compilations), and that was all you could ever listen to, which album would you choose?"  My answer to that question has remained the same for over 43 years - Sunflower.

But will you be still be able to hear Sunflower, if you don't make the genie an offer he can't refuse?  ( that takes much $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) 
but yeah, you caught me, I'm still listeninbg to the music of my youth.  The only rap I like is Smart Girls

[drbeachboy]

I think if you take Mr. Desper's question seriously and practically, there is one aspect that has to affect the answer to some degree, and that is age.

When you are a young or new Beach Boys' fan, and I'm talking serious diehard, you probably wouldn't give up the "experience" for anything. You're enthralled by discovering and purchasing new/old music, you're traveling to every BB-related concert your car will take you to, you're reading every book and article you can find, you're combing through YouTube videos, you're probably a collector to some degree, you are committed to spreading the gospel according to The Beach Boys, and you're spending way too much time on message boards. You are hooked and it's a wonderful thing. It is an unbelievable feeling and "experience". Not to sound too hokey but your life will never be the same. And you probably can't conceive of giving it up...for anything.

But a funny thing happens. You get older. You've accumulated all the music, released and (cough) unreleased. You've listened to the music for decades. You've seen dozens of concerts. You've read all the books. You might even go from buying BB stuff to eventually selling it. You might be burned out on spreading the word. And, maybe you've said everything you wanted to say on the message boards! This might be hard to believe for many fans, again for those who might be new(er) in their Beach Boys' devotion, but you do peak in your fandom. And, while YOU WILL ALWAYS LOVE AND CHERISH THE MUSIC, there is an inevitable fading in your active Beach Boys' experience. I don't know if I'm expressing it properly, and I don't mean to be negative, because I'm not. I'm just trying to give a perspective, one which I have experienced.

Two other things happen with age - both good. First, you expand your musical horizons over time. Think of all the artists/groups you now listen to that you never imagined getting into years ago. It might astound you. They might not "knock" the Beach Boys out of the top spot on your list or in your heart, but they do take up listening time that was once occupied by The Beach Boys. You will always have your love of Beach Boys' music, but, believe it or not, that love will not always be as intense as it was at the peak of your fandom; that's common sense. But, also, you will grow to love other groups that, again, won't quite reach that level of Beach Boys' diehard-ism, but will have a wonderfully positive effect on your musical life.

Finally, many other things will come into your life that take on more important meanings - your wife/husband, your children, your family and friends, births and deaths, health issues, financial concerns, careers and vocations, and other ways of spending your free time. In other words, you go through a lot of changes. It's called living.

Along the way, one thing is certain. Your values will change. Yes, absolutely, you will always love and cherish The Beach Boys' music. You might even play it every day for the rest of your life. But....I'm wondering how and if it (the music) would take precedence over other values, financially speaking, and that is the question proposed in this thread. Mortgage payments, rent, doctor bills, hospital bills, college tuition (for you or your children), charities, church offerings, and just plain old financial security. That's reality for most people. You wake up and, all of a sudden, those things are taking on more importance, and other things are put on the back burner.

When you take EVERYTHING into account - and get older - the answer to Mr. Desper's question isn't as clear cut as you might think. Well, for me anyway.

I'm 56 and have been a fan since 1964 (just a wee tyke) and I do well enough that I don't have to have a price to give them up. And while this forum has capped my fandom outwardly, the music still affects me inwardly just as it did when I was becoming a fan. So, as long as I'm not destitute, no amount money is worth giving up one of my main joys in life.

[RangeRoverA1]

Great topic, Mr. Desper! Like to know you can amuse us too, not only educate.

I'm surprised that (as far as I read) nobody has mentioned giving to charity.  I'm not trying to put on a facade of selflessness like I would give it all away (I probably wouldn't), but I do think that the possibility of giving the genie's money away to charity is still in the spirit of the question and an important implication.
For those of you who answered in astronomical figures (like $50 million), you could save a lot of lives with that kind of money--and all it would hinge on is you (just one person) giving up something you like.  In other words, how many lives could be changed/saved with the money simply because one person doesn't get to listen to the Beach Boys?

Good idea, Chad. I'd demand genie to give me $3 billion, & a quarter I'd spend on a shelter formation for stray animals & zoo leftovers. The rest would be for my family, relatives by my own selection as I don't like everyone of them (who would?). That said, w/o the BBs music, even though it would fall into oblivion, my listening experience would be less colorful & magical.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

But a funny thing happens. You get older. You've accumulated all the music, released and (cough) unreleased. You've listened to the music for decades. You've seen dozens of concerts. You've read all the books. You might even go from buying BB stuff to eventually selling it. You might be burned out on spreading the word. And, maybe you've said everything you wanted to say on the message boards! This might be hard to believe for many fans, again for those who might be new(er) in their Beach Boys' devotion, but you do peak in your fandom. And, while YOU WILL ALWAYS LOVE AND CHERISH THE MUSIC, there is an inevitable fading in your active Beach Boys' experience. I don't know if I'm expressing it properly, and I don't mean to be negative, because I'm not. I'm just trying to give a perspective, one which I have experienced.

You've just summed me up perfectly! I've been a fan since '88, aged 15, and I'd say I've definitely peaked. Obsessive fandom is, on the whole a youthful pastime

[halblaineisgood]

.

[Ang Jones]

I don't listen to this music every day. But I love it and it brings back many memories. If I had gone deaf - irrevocably deaf - then I might accept the genie's offer and I'd ask for perhaps £10 million (I have friends, relatives and charities to consider). But the genie isn't going to make the offer if I'm deaf. So my answer is 'no'. Faustian pacts go wrong. And in a way it matters less to have loads of money as you get older - less time to spend it and fewer expensive pursuits I should think for most people.

[the captain]

I'd take a surprisingly small amount of money, maybe in the thousands, but I wouldn't tell the genie that. I'd ask for at least five million, hidden in a Swiss bank account.

I think I'm in this camp. My number would be somewhat higher--maybe $250k?--but as long as the genie's pocketbook is open...

Seriously, while losing the BBs would suck, there is a lot of great music out there. I don't think I'd suffer much.

[JK]

I'm not interested in the money. But if Mr Genie offered to make me the life and soul of the party rather than the no-life and arse'ole of the party, I'd drop the BBs like a stone. ;=)

[Loaf]

A very interesting question. I'd love the money because i could buy a better house and take better care of my family.

I'd still have my own memories, which would be kind of a torture i guess if i could never hear the music again, but i am looking forward to trying to get my young son into the Beach Boys so he can experience what i have experienced.

I'd like to say £1,000,000, but realistically i'd settle for less. Maybe £300,000? I'm not saying i wouldn't be devastated over the loss, but the money would be very helpful in the short-term.

[dcowboys107]

Interesting post.

I would approach this from a business perspective.

In a given year I spend a fair amount of money on BB vinyl, CD's, or concerts.  This year I will probably end up spending about $800 not to mention the $9.99/month on Spotify that I usually listen to BB music anyways.  This year has been abnormal with my stocking up on AP pressings and buying tickets for my parents to go see BW in Atlanta with me. So let's say I spend $400 (plus Spotify) in a given year on average.  So that's $520 in total and let's say that the inflation rate is 2% and that there is declining marginal value in purchasing records and going to concerts (there is only so much to buy!  ).  I'll say that it declines at 3 percent a year compounded.

The time and value I get from analyzing vocal arrangements and practicing them, playing the piano and guitar alongside the Keep An Eye on Summer sessions, going on long walks and listening to Wild Honey or Holland, and other emotionally satisfying ways to spend time (such as reading Mr. Desper's posts over and over), I'd value at about $65/hour since I value my leisure at a premium to my wage rate.

There are 8760 hours in a year and let's say 4 hours a day, on average, is BB related.  In a year, derived value from leisure in this case would be $94,900 which would grow on a compound annual basis at 3%. (I hope to make grow my earnings over and above inflation!).

I probably have 65 good more years left and I'll assume a discount rate of 8% per annum. 

That calculates to a present value of $1,192,750.00. 

So you would need to pay me that amount roughly to get me to give them up, financially speaking.

At an emotional level, I'd say it'd take about a million dollars to make me feel that it was worth it so my math more or less is in synch with how I truly value the Beach Boys inwardly (listening to "Please Let Me Wonder" for the 10th time on my walk to hear the beautiful backing vocals) and outwardly (purchases).