How would BB history be different if Mike had received proper cowriting credits?

[CenturyDeprived]

Why do you think Brian started writing with Mike again in late '67?

Going back and working in an artistic environment with someone with whom you have just very recently had majorly hurt feelings (which haven't been addressed/dealt with properly) can't have been a decision that would have been Brian's first instinct, IMO. He found a way to put those feelings aside and not deal with them, while they probably kept quietly festering in the back of his mind.

Keep in mind that Mike's biggest (and only?) problem with SMiLE was SOME of Van Dyke Park's lyrics, not Brian's artistic contribution which was the music. I know we have discussed this ad nauseum, but Mike did his job well on SMiLE and I don't think there is any documented evidence that he (Mike) protested during the recording of the weirder Smiley Smile.

I happen to think this is way minimizing the facts, but it makes little difference what we think, since regardless of the degree of Mike's problems with SMiLE were (or weren't), or how we view things in that manner, the fact remains that Brian was deeply hurt by Mike (specifically pertaining to Mike objecting to Brian's vision for BB music in one way or another - most deeply with SMiLE, but also going back to Hang On to Your Ego, questions about Side B of Today, and surely earlier); those feelings were Brian's own and they were real to Brian.

So I'm just saying that going back into a working relationship with a guy who Brian was unarguably hurt by - and (perhaps arguably) had just recently been trying to move away from in order to work more with people who wouldn't question Brian's own motives - couldn't have been a decision that was just simply happily made by Brian, with a ho-hum attitude. It was an easy retreat by a defeated Brian, and a way to get a monkey off his back.

I love the Wild Honey album and I'm glad we have it, but Brian's days of giving-a-major-major-f*ck about the quality of his recordings were over, or at least they were over at the time, which IMO was clearly shown by his production of the album. Yes, it was also a retreat and reaction to minimize the work/effort compared to what he'd done at his peak just months prior. But I don't think Brian's full heart was in it, and I think part of that was because of the unaddressed very recent emotional crap between those two guys that Brian put aside and didn't address when they wrote the WH songs.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Why do you think Brian started writing with Mike again in late '67?

Going back and working in an artistic environment with someone with whom you have just very recently had majorly hurt feelings (which haven't been addressed/dealt with properly) can't have been a decision that would have been Brian's first instinct, IMO. He found a way to put those feelings aside and not deal with them, while they probably kept quietly festering in the back of his mind.

Keep in mind that Mike's biggest (and only?) problem with SMiLE was SOME of Van Dyke Park's lyrics, not Brian's artistic contribution which was the music. I know we have discussed this ad nauseum, but Mike did his job well on SMiLE and I don't think there is any documented evidence that he (Mike) protested during the recording of the weirder Smiley Smile.

...the fact remains that Brian was deeply hurt by Mike (specifically pertaining to Mike objecting to Brian's vision for BB music in one way or another - most deeply with SMiLE...

Maybe. I guess it depends on what you consider to be the facts.

I know we have that proclamation by Brian in the Beautiful Dreamer documentary saying "Mike didn't like it". But, most of the statements I have read from Brian regarding the demise of SMiLE show Brian himself taking responsibility by mentioning major drug intake, impending mental problems, and finding the music inappropriate, which I guess means it wouldn't be accepted (sell?) by Beach Boys' fans.

Wow, I'm rusty. It's been awhile since we had a SMiLE discussion.

[CenturyDeprived]

Does it not seem possible to you that Brian felt so dejected by the project not being finished, that by retroactively claiming the music was "inappropriate" or in some way non-relatable/connectable, it helped Brian himself legitimize (to himself, from a psychological standpoint) having shelved it? Plus, Brian could only take hearing questions (and seeing bandmates grudgingly going through the motions) enough times before starting to second guess himself in a big way. I'm not saying that all of Brian's second-guessing of the project was solely caused by his bandmates, but it obviously was a *major* factor.

Sure anything is possible and that is an old theory that sort hardened into something resembling fact for a long time. My read is exactly opposite, Brian shows no signs of this supposed vulnerability or regret to me. He was not fighting to save SMiLE, he was exactly the opposite fighting to dump SMiLE and he did. In my opinion Brian was just not at all like that theory proposes. After dumping SMiLE he was not pining away for it he went on and had one of his most productive years. To me that proposal is romantic but it doesn't fit the facts as I read them.

I never said that in the SMiLE aftermath, Brian was in any way, shape or form "pining" for it. He essentially put it out of sight, out of mind to save himself. A gradual vicious cycle of feelings of defeat and self-doubt would do that to a lot of artists. "Not fighting to save SMiLE" was an obvious subsequent byproduct of the man throwing in the towel. And a person self-destructing emotionally and finding other coping mechanisms is a clear-as-day sign of regret to my eyes.

[Cam Mott]

Does it not seem possible to you that Brian felt so dejected by the project not being finished, that by retroactively claiming the music was "inappropriate" or in some way non-relatable/connectable, it helped Brian himself legitimize (to himself, from a psychological standpoint) having shelved it? Plus, Brian could only take hearing questions (and seeing bandmates grudgingly going through the motions) enough times before starting to second guess himself in a big way. I'm not saying that all of Brian's second-guessing of the project was solely caused by his bandmates, but it obviously was a *major* factor.

Sure anything is possible and that is an old theory that sort hardened into something resembling fact for a long time. My read is exactly opposite, Brian shows no signs of this supposed vulnerability or regret to me. He was not fighting to save SMiLE, he was exactly the opposite fighting to dump SMiLE and he did. In my opinion Brian was just not at all like that theory proposes. After dumping SMiLE he was not pining away for it he went on and had one of his most productive years. To me that proposal is romantic but it doesn't fit the facts as I read them.

I never said that in the SMiLE aftermath, Brian was in any way, shape or form "pining" for it. He essentially put it out of sight, out of mind to save himself. A gradual vicious cycle of feelings of defeat and self-doubt would do that to a lot of artists. "Not fighting to save SMiLE" was an obvious subsequent byproduct of the man throwing in the towel. And a person self-destructing emotionally and finding other coping mechanisms is a clear-as-day sign of regret to my eyes.

OK, we will continue to disagree on all of it.

[CenturyDeprived]

Why do you think Brian started writing with Mike again in late '67?

Going back and working in an artistic environment with someone with whom you have just very recently had majorly hurt feelings (which haven't been addressed/dealt with properly) can't have been a decision that would have been Brian's first instinct, IMO. He found a way to put those feelings aside and not deal with them, while they probably kept quietly festering in the back of his mind.

Keep in mind that Mike's biggest (and only?) problem with SMiLE was SOME of Van Dyke Park's lyrics, not Brian's artistic contribution which was the music. I know we have discussed this ad nauseum, but Mike did his job well on SMiLE and I don't think there is any documented evidence that he (Mike) protested during the recording of the weirder Smiley Smile.

...the fact remains that Brian was deeply hurt by Mike (specifically pertaining to Mike objecting to Brian's vision for BB music in one way or another - most deeply with SMiLE...

Maybe. I guess it depends on what you consider to be the facts.

I know we have that proclamation by Brian in the Beautiful Dreamer documentary saying "Mike didn't like it". But, most of the statements I have read from Brian regarding the demise of SMiLE show Brian himself taking responsibility by mentioning major drug intake, impending mental problems, and finding the music inappropriate, which I guess means it wouldn't be accepted (sell?) by Beach Boys' fans.

Wow, I'm rusty. It's been awhile since we had a SMiLE discussion.

It was clearly hard for Brian to say what he said in the Beautiful Dreamer documentary. You can see the pain on his face. It wasn't easy for him to say it point blank like that, because he isn't a confrontational person (not because it's not true).

For Brian to go out of his way to *directly* point his finger at Mike in public statements isn't something that's very much in his character. It seems to me that Brian's a guy who, when he is sad, depressed, angry, resentful at others, will often take things out on himself - abuse his body, deny that anything is wrong, etc. Peoples' feelings are gonna come out and manifest in one way or another - it's just a matter of time and circumstance - not if, but when.

As I've said before, Mike Love shouldn't be fingered in any way, shape or form as being the sole cause of any of SMiLE, its fallout, etc. But it should be accepted that his actions (and Brian's internal interpretations of them) were in some way *a* factor. Brian's feelings on what Mike did/didn't say/imply with non-verbal communication, and how Brian took in that data and processed it in his mind are not to be denied by any of us. That sh*t is/was real to Brian.

Is anyone gonna have guts enough to say that Brian's feelings aren't real to Brian? Or that he doesn't have a right to feel what he felt, or to interpret things how he interpreted them? Or is it gonna come back to the old idea that Brian is a puppet and his feelings are all put into his head by others? At some point, one has to accept that the man has a mind of his own.

I'd love to see how the Mike uber defenders would react if we found a diary that Brian had written between 1961-1967, and if those writings confirmed that Brian felt a certain way about some of Mike's actions all along (and that these thoughts weren't put into Brian's head by others or by drugs - but that these thoughts were there all along, even in Brian's most "with-it" years). But the defenders would find some other way to discredit Brian's feelings, right?

The fact that Brian doesn't have a personality that would go out of his way at every turn in the road to say "Yeah, it's my cousin's fault" does not mean that Brian doesn't feel that Mike has some culpability. Our feelings on Mike's culpability are irrelevant.

It's a textbook case of how in many ways, Brian is pretty much the exact opposite of his cousin, personality-wise.  I guess it's a ying-yang situation, only a sick one. I don't think I've ever heard Mike Love say a regretful thing about a single action of his in BB history (maybe barring his own embarrassment about Brian's ball-busting mention of Looking Back with Love in the campfire segment). When Mike was asked in a recent interview about what actions of his own that he'd change, he found a way to spin the answer into drug use by the Wilsons, and duck the actual question/probe of what actions of *his own* that he'd change. Denial is the glue that gives certain people the ability to hold themselves together.  Much in the parallel way that Brian downplayed SMiLE and tried to ignore it and make it disappear entirely for decades in order to hold himself together.

And that personality trait of Mike's, sadly and unfortunately, is why giant swathes of the public loathe him.  It's led to why he isn't respected in the way he wishes he was, which has led to 10,001 "Back in the USSR" mentions in interviews. I on the other hand simply feel sorry for him (or as much as I can for a multimillionaire) since I think he's the worst enemy to both himself and the group's legacy. It doesn't mean I can't appreciate the man's work or think that he's a horrible person (which I don't).

[Robbie Mac]

Does it not seem possible to you that Brian felt so dejected by the project not being finished, that by retroactively claiming the music was "inappropriate" or in some way non-relatable/connectable, it helped Brian himself legitimize (to himself, from a psychological standpoint) having shelved it? Plus, Brian could only take hearing questions (and seeing bandmates grudgingly going through the motions) enough times before starting to second guess himself in a big way. I'm not saying that all of Brian's second-guessing of the project was solely caused by his bandmates, but it obviously was a *major* factor.

Sure anything is possible and that is an old theory that sort hardened into something resembling fact for a long time. My read is exactly opposite, Brian shows no signs of this supposed vulnerability or regret to me. He was not fighting to save SMiLE, he was exactly the opposite fighting to dump SMiLE and he did. In my opinion Brian was just not at all like that theory proposes. After dumping SMiLE he was not pining away for it he went on and had one of his most productive years. To me that proposal is romantic but it doesn't fit the facts as I read them.

I never said that in the SMiLE aftermath, Brian was in any way, shape or form "pining" for it. He essentially put it out of sight, out of mind to save himself. A gradual vicious cycle of feelings of defeat and self-doubt would do that to a lot of artists. "Not fighting to save SMiLE" was an obvious subsequent byproduct of the man throwing in the towel. And a person self-destructing emotionally and finding other coping mechanisms is a clear-as-day sign of regret to my eyes.

OK, we will continue to disagree on all of it.

Cam, would it kill you to admit that maybe he has a point?

[Dancing Bear]

Brian chose to work with outsider lyricists for Pet Sounds and Smile. It's a fact.

What do we know for certain? That he'd rather not collaborate with Mike anymore. It's a fact. Simple as that.

In the second half of 1967 Brian started writing again with Mike. It's a fact.

Why is it so hard to believe that he wanted to work with Mike again? Does it have to be a metaphor for his defeat with the shelving of Smile, his giving up on the producer race, a way of having Mike off his back?

Maybe, just maybe, he had written some new material with a strong R'n'B influence and thought Mike would write great lyrics for them.

Maybe Wild Honey was the best music he could write in produce in the latter half of 1967.

[CenturyDeprived]

Brian chose to work with outsider lyricists for Pet Sounds and Smile. It's a fact.

What do we know for certain? That he'd rather not collaborate with Mike anymore. It's a fact. Simple as that.

In the second half of 1967 Brian started writing again with Mike. It's a fact.

Why is it so hard to believe that he wanted to work with Mike again? Does it have to be a metaphor for his defeat with the shelving of Smile, his giving up on the producer race, a way of having Mike off his back?

Maybe, just maybe, he had written some new material with a strong R'n'B influence and thought Mike would write great lyrics for them.

Maybe Wild Honey was the best music he could write in produce in the latter half of 1967.

One's ability to wholeheartedly believe Brian *actively*, of his own volition, *wanted* + truly *desired* to work on an entire album of tunes co-written with Mike again at this point in time, so soon after SMiLE, I suppose depends on how much (or little) you think that Brian was deeply bummed out/resentful of Mike at the time, and whether or not you think a situation where someone feels really hurt and artistically rejected could possibly lend itself a "desire" to work with who they see as a partial culprit of these things. If you think "Brian wasn't really bummed at Mike at the time because he had no reason to be", then your theory might make more sense to someone who thinks that way.  To me, it seems like an example of Brian stuffing his feelings down deep inside, not dealing with them, and then forging ahead to keep things going in a business sense.

I think that once Brian decided to just get an album done quickly (especially with Smiley Smile being a flop), and once he intended it to be rooted in a more simple pop R&B sense, that at that point the situation lent itself to it making the most sense for Mike (who surely wanted to be back writing lyrics) to be put back into that position. I don't think anyone could imagine a scenario where Mike wasn't suggesting to Brian (multiple times) that he'd like to be back writing lyrics for a "fresh start" without hangers-on.

One thing seems indisputable: In late '67, Brian was not in a good place mentally/emotionally. He was doing his best at forging ahead, but he was pushing down his depression (and not very well). He still had SMiLE floating around in his head in some fashion, as the attempted Surf's Up 1967 version tells us (to some degree at least), not to mention Mama Says. While Brian's head space would most certainly sadly get worse very soon, I would think it safe to say that when an artist (or anyone for that matter) is in a stage of depression which is getting worse by the day by not being properly dealt with, that their decision making process may not be what it would be if they were on top like they used to be.  This includes when the decision was made on matters of collaborators.

I'm not saying that Mike was the wrong person to write the lyrics for WH (and I like Brian + Mike's contributions, underproduction notwithstanding) - that album, like you said, was probably the best you could've gotten out of Brian, Mike, and the Boys at the time. But the fact that this was the best album you could've gotten out of them then reflects the fact that Brian had just experienced a great defeat, had given up the production race, and gave up the task of fighting for "progressive" lyrics with outsiders anymore (and I'm sure that last part made Mike very happy).

Does that mean that Brian made Wild Honey grudgingly? I doubt it, although IMO the underproduction to me suggests maybe sorta kinda. At that point, his survival instinct of "SMiLE was inappropriate" helped get himself into the zone of doing way less work and expounding way less emotional energy into making a record. I do think he tried to make a cool record. Monterrey Pop had come and gone, and feeling he'd failed the opportunity to gain respect with the "cool kids", he went back to something simpler and safer, relative to progressive intricate sunshine pop. Plus - another fact is that he "owed" Mike an album of Mike-written lyrics, so it was a "make good" piece as well.  
 
There were lots of reasons that Brian decided to work on a whole album with Mike in late '67, but it doesn't add up to me that it was as simple as Brian "just wanting to work with Mike again".

[Dancing Bear]

One's ability to wholeheartedly believe Brian *actively*, of his own volition, *wanted* + truly desired to work on an entire album of tunes co-written with Mike again at this point in time, so soon after SMiLE, I suppose depends on how much (or little) you think that Brian was deeply bummed out/resentful of Mike at the time, and whether or not you think a situation where someone feels really hurt and artistically rejected would could possibly lend itself a "desire" to work with who they see as a partial culprit of these things. If you think "Brian wasn't really bummed at Mike at the time because he had no reason to be", then your theory might make more sense to someone who thinks that way.  To me, it seems like an example of Brian stuffing his feelings down deep inside, not dealing with them, and then forging ahead to keep things going in a business sense.

No, I'm not advocating that Brian had no reason to be bummed out at Mike. He certainly was, and if we start to debate if it was justified or not we'll kinda return to the old "who's to blame for Smile". On the other hand you're saying that there's no way that Brian world want to write again with Mike so soon. I disagree. Maybe there was more to life in September '67 than the ghost of Smile. Marilyn was pregnant. I sincerely hope that a daughter on the way was more important to the man than a fucking album that wasn't finished. Maybe he felt like writing again with Mike, without any subliminal arm twisting or anything like that. But I think you already made up your mind about that and we'll have to agree to disagree.

[CenturyDeprived]

One's ability to wholeheartedly believe Brian *actively*, of his own volition, *wanted* + truly desired to work on an entire album of tunes co-written with Mike again at this point in time, so soon after SMiLE, I suppose depends on how much (or little) you think that Brian was deeply bummed out/resentful of Mike at the time, and whether or not you think a situation where someone feels really hurt and artistically rejected would could possibly lend itself a "desire" to work with who they see as a partial culprit of these things. If you think "Brian wasn't really bummed at Mike at the time because he had no reason to be", then your theory might make more sense to someone who thinks that way.  To me, it seems like an example of Brian stuffing his feelings down deep inside, not dealing with them, and then forging ahead to keep things going in a business sense.

No, I'm not advocating that Brian had no reason to be bummed out at Mike. He certainly was, and if we start to debate if it was justified or not we'll kinda return to the old "who's to blame for Smile". On the other hand you're saying that there's no way that Brian world want to write again with Mike so soon. I disagree. Maybe there was more to life in September '67 than the ghost of Smile. Marilyn was pregnant. I sincerely hope that a daughter on the way was more important to the man than a fucking album that wasn't finished. Maybe he felt like writing again with Mike, without any subliminal arm twisting or anything like that. But I think you already made up your mind about that and we'll have to agree to disagree.

If Brian making good on his 2-year old promise to Mike about Mike writing the "next" album way back in '65/'66 was, to some degree, a reason why WH happened, does that constitute subliminal arm twisting? Or does that possibly constitute past subliminal arm twisting that caught up with Brian 2 years later?

Because I have a hunch that Brian agreed to those "terms" at that much earlier date as a simple way to make Mike happy, and as a means to let Brian follow his artistic muse at the moment right then. If you were Brian's 1965/1966 good friend, and were to have asked Brian at the time whether or not he *wanted* to make that promise to Mike, or whether or not he did it to get Mike off his back and to make Mike happy, well I think it would seem obvious that he made the promise to appease his cousin. Do you dispute this notion? What artist (who is experiencing all sorts of newfound inspiration and ideas, with no end in sight) actually *wants* to make a promise to be back to doing things in a certain, predefined way in the future? It's called a compromise, you do this, I'll do that.

I don't think WH in its eventual form exists *solely* because of that "next album" promise, but it seems to me like that is certainly *part* of the picture.

[alf wiedersehen]

Brian wanted a hit. He was crushed when "Heroes and Villains" received a tepid response.

Who did Brian score hits with? Mike Love.
Makes sense to me.

[CenturyDeprived]

Brian wanted a hit. He was crushed when "Heroes and Villains" received a tepid response.

Who did Brian score hits with? Mike Love.
Makes sense to me.

That's true, and a valid point. I don't dispute that Brian tried to carve out a couple of hits from the WH album the "old fashioned way" with Mike Love. I do think that Brian viewed most of the rest of the album as filler though. And it is good filler. But what you suggest is not the whole picture - that's way, way oversimplified IMO.

It took a relative failure of H&V to reaffirm in his own mind what Mike Love himself had been telling Brian for months and months (that lyrics not written by him were unrelatable and wouldn't generate "hits"). This, coupled with the H&V chart failure, helped Brian to stop believing the SMiLE hype himself.  The SMiLE world/people/hangers on was pulled out from under Brian very quickly (largely of his own volition) - most of that circle went away in a heartbeat (with VDP already gone). In this atmosphere, plus prodding by Mike, and a make-good on his belated promise looming, it's probably not that surprising that Brian decided to just work with Mike again. Who else was he gonna work with at this point?  Especially when they clearly wanted new product very fast.

And did Brian, in his then-mindset, really have much of a choice at this point? Was he gonna say "No, Mike - I'm gonna break the promise for the 2nd album in a row, and I'm gonna search for *yet another* new lyricist again - even after all this excruciating, hugely publicly embarrassing spectacle which showed my failure at following through?" Sure - Brian could have said those things, but he felt defeated and was in no mindset to put up a fight.

Plus - the key word on Brian's mind at that point was "SAFE". Anything other than working with Mike would have resulted in yet additional friction - and I'm sure that if there was any time in Brian's career where he needed more friction/questioning of his decisions/choice of collaborators from his bandmates like he needed a hole in the head - it was in late 1967. Brian wanted much more than just a "hit" at that time - he wanted peace, and he wanted to ACTIVELY avoid any new situation remotely resembling confrontation.

I don't think Brian went "kicking and screaming" into it, but IMO it most certainly wasn't some happy decision where Brian said to himself "well, Mike has a history of writing hits with me, so golly gee, I'd really like to work with him again now". It's always way more complicated than that with these guys.
 

[Dancing Bear]

One's ability to wholeheartedly believe Brian *actively*, of his own volition, *wanted* + truly desired to work on an entire album of tunes co-written with Mike again at this point in time, so soon after SMiLE, I suppose depends on how much (or little) you think that Brian was deeply bummed out/resentful of Mike at the time, and whether or not you think a situation where someone feels really hurt and artistically rejected would could possibly lend itself a "desire" to work with who they see as a partial culprit of these things. If you think "Brian wasn't really bummed at Mike at the time because he had no reason to be", then your theory might make more sense to someone who thinks that way.  To me, it seems like an example of Brian stuffing his feelings down deep inside, not dealing with them, and then forging ahead to keep things going in a business sense.

No, I'm not advocating that Brian had no reason to be bummed out at Mike. He certainly was, and if we start to debate if it was justified or not we'll kinda return to the old "who's to blame for Smile". On the other hand you're saying that there's no way that Brian world want to write again with Mike so soon. I disagree. Maybe there was more to life in September '67 than the ghost of Smile. Marilyn was pregnant. I sincerely hope that a daughter on the way was more important to the man than a fucking album that wasn't finished. Maybe he felt like writing again with Mike, without any subliminal arm twisting or anything like that. But I think you already made up your mind about that and we'll have to agree to disagree.

If Brian making good on his 2-year old promise to Mike about Mike writing the "next" album way back in '65/'66 was, to some degree, a reason why WH happened, does that constitute subliminal arm twisting? Or does that possibly constitute past subliminal arm twisting that caught up with Brian 2 years later?

Because I have a hunch that Brian agreed to those "terms" at that much earlier date as a simple way to make Mike happy, and as a means to let Brian follow his artistic muse at the moment right then. If you were Brian's 1965/1966 good friend, and were to have asked Brian at the time whether or not he *wanted* to make that promise to Mike, or whether or not he did it to get Mike off his back and to make Mike happy, well I think it would seem obvious that he made the promise to appease his cousin. Do you dispute this notion? What artist (who is experiencing all sorts of newfound inspiration and ideas, with no end in sight) actually *wants* to make a promise to be back to doing things in a certain, predefined way in the future? It's called a compromise, you do this, I'll do that.
take care ohe congwriting credits sitf t
I don't think WH in its eventual form exists *solely* because of that "next album" promise, but it seems to me like that is certainly *part* of the picture.

Brian also promised Mike that he'd take care of the songwriting credits situation. As we know, he never did, and universe didn't collapse.

 guess Brian only follows his muse when he wants to work with Asher or Parks, or when he's producing Pet Sounds and Smile. Everything that happened before was a preparation, and everything that happened after was a resignation.

[Cam Mott]

IF anybody was feeling bummed out, ignored, denied, compromised, etc, etc, during the period it seems it was the Boys. Brian said in 1968 that the Boys advocated against the scrapping of SMiLE. And then after losing, appear to have kept giving their all to Brian's scrapping of SMiLE in Smiley. I still believe the "history" of the period sort of has practically everything backwards.

[Mike's Beard]

Brian wanted a hit. He was crushed when "Heroes and Villains" received a tepid response.

Who did Brian score hits with? Mike Love.
Makes sense to me.

That was my spin on things - Brian tried writing with others and the hits started to falter. Mike was the tried and tested option, even if he was no longer Brian's first choice in a perfect world.

[clack]

See, I don't think Brian co-wrote with Mike on WH at all reluctantly, or just to make good on an earlier promise. If we look at WH in the context of Smiley Smile and Friends, we can see that Brian 1) stopped relying on session musicians and had the band lay down most of the tracks, 2) shared production credit with the other band members, and 3) not only began writing with Mike again, but -- for the 1st time -- brought Carl, Dennis, and Al into the writing process.

I think Brian grew tired of carrying the creative burden alone.

[CenturyDeprived]

One's ability to wholeheartedly believe Brian *actively*, of his own volition, *wanted* + truly desired to work on an entire album of tunes co-written with Mike again at this point in time, so soon after SMiLE, I suppose depends on how much (or little) you think that Brian was deeply bummed out/resentful of Mike at the time, and whether or not you think a situation where someone feels really hurt and artistically rejected would could possibly lend itself a "desire" to work with who they see as a partial culprit of these things. If you think "Brian wasn't really bummed at Mike at the time because he had no reason to be", then your theory might make more sense to someone who thinks that way.  To me, it seems like an example of Brian stuffing his feelings down deep inside, not dealing with them, and then forging ahead to keep things going in a business sense.

No, I'm not advocating that Brian had no reason to be bummed out at Mike. He certainly was, and if we start to debate if it was justified or not we'll kinda return to the old "who's to blame for Smile". On the other hand you're saying that there's no way that Brian world want to write again with Mike so soon. I disagree. Maybe there was more to life in September '67 than the ghost of Smile. Marilyn was pregnant. I sincerely hope that a daughter on the way was more important to the man than a fucking album that wasn't finished. Maybe he felt like writing again with Mike, without any subliminal arm twisting or anything like that. But I think you already made up your mind about that and we'll have to agree to disagree.

If Brian making good on his 2-year old promise to Mike about Mike writing the "next" album way back in '65/'66 was, to some degree, a reason why WH happened, does that constitute subliminal arm twisting? Or does that possibly constitute past subliminal arm twisting that caught up with Brian 2 years later?

Because I have a hunch that Brian agreed to those "terms" at that much earlier date as a simple way to make Mike happy, and as a means to let Brian follow his artistic muse at the moment right then. If you were Brian's 1965/1966 good friend, and were to have asked Brian at the time whether or not he *wanted* to make that promise to Mike, or whether or not he did it to get Mike off his back and to make Mike happy, well I think it would seem obvious that he made the promise to appease his cousin. Do you dispute this notion? What artist (who is experiencing all sorts of newfound inspiration and ideas, with no end in sight) actually *wants* to make a promise to be back to doing things in a certain, predefined way in the future? It's called a compromise, you do this, I'll do that.
take care ohe congwriting credits sitf t
I don't think WH in its eventual form exists *solely* because of that "next album" promise, but it seems to me like that is certainly *part* of the picture.

Brian also promised Mike that he'd take care of the songwriting credits situation. As we know, he never did, and universe didn't collapse.

 guess Brian only follows his muse when he wants to work with Asher or Parks, or when he's producing Pet Sounds and Smile. Everything that happened before was a preparation, and everything that happened after was a resignation.

It was surely a hell of a lot easier for Brian to make good on a promise to write some songs and churn an album out quickly in a previously proven manner (especially when recent history dictated the excruciating difficulty of writing an album in a different fashion) than to take care of the songwriting credits situation, which would have involved lawyers, long/drawn out discussions over months or years, and all sorts of unknown stuff that Brian was eager to avoid responsibility for.  Of course, he should have done that anyway - but the two situations are apples and oranges, and not worthy of comparison IMO.

Would the universe have collapsed if Brian didn't decide to write WH with Mike? No.

But try to present me with a plausible hypothetical situation where, at that time, Brian would have been able to *quickly* write an album with any other choice of lyricist. And present me a situation where this new choice of non-Mike lyricist doesn't cause Brian to have to hear a metric ton of grief for again bringing in yet another outsider, especially in the wake recent history showing that working on songs in a non-proven nontraditional way = catastrophic public failure.

That album was cranked out FAST which I'm sure was what the band wanted to try and reverse its quickly fading fortunes. Just for Brian to have even considered trying to *find* another lyricist with whom he clicked with could've taken more time than they wanted on writing/recording the whole album itself. It wasn't worth it to him, even if the thought would've crossed his mind.

And working with Mike at the time may have been following his then-muse, to an extent, since once he was in a resigned mindset, he had to reboot the entire process - which is why it's back to basics in every sense of the word. While Brian was surely happy about having to do far less heavy lifting (albums like WH, though very good, were albums that Brian could seemingly knock out in his sleep), I really doubt that Brian felt the creative fulfillment when listening to the WH acetate master prior to its release, that he was seeking just months earlier on SMiLE. I think he tried to make a cool little album, and in general he did. But I think it ignores lots of circumstantial evidence to suggest that there wasn't even a tiny blip of resignation in Brian's heart at the time.

[CenturyDeprived]

See, I don't think Brian co-wrote with Mike on WH at all reluctantly, or just to make good on an earlier promise. If we look at WH in the context of Smiley Smile and Friends, we can see that Brian 1) stopped relying on session musicians and had the band lay down most of the tracks, 2) shared production credit with the other band members, and 3) not only began writing with Mike again, but -- for the 1st time -- brought Carl, Dennis, and Al into the writing process.

I think Brian grew tired of carrying the creative burden alone.

I agree with most of what you say above, although I think the make-good thing more than likely played a role (but most certainly wasn't the only factor). Once the urge and motivation to reach for insanely huge heights had evaporated and left him, Brian did everything he could on a subconscious level to diminish the goals he had been striving towards, and threw himself into his work (not dealing with his feelings and the fallout), and at that point, you have a man who is holding himself together, saying things to himself to be able to function, and in general being emotionally unhealthy.

Within the context of that mental framework, his choice of choosing Mike (with whom he surely has some major unaddressed issues with) doesn't have to be seen as exactly "reluctant", but it seems to me more of a situation where Brian had some emotional blinders on, chose to simply not deal with certain things, and went into a new project (which Brian knew would be easy), all the while under the pretense that nothing was really deeply wrong. The human mind is a powerful thing and Brian, obviously since a young age, found ways to cope with emotionally difficult situations. Working with Mike might have made the most sense at the time on many levels, but it was also the easiest and least confrontational way of dealing with the task and sense of responsibility at hand, which in my mind are probably the main factors on why it happened.

[Dancing Bear]

But try to present me with a plausible hypothetical situation where, at that time, Brian would have been able to *quickly* write an album with any other choice of lyricist. And present me a situation where this new choice of non-Mike lyricist doesn't cause Brian to have to hear a metric ton of grief for again bringing in yet another outsider, especially in the wake recent history showing that working on songs in a non-proven nontraditional way = catastrophic public failure.

As far as I know, Brian did write Wild Honey with Mike. You're the one advocating that that's not what he really wanted to do in 1967, so what you're basically doing is to presume what Brian's motiovations were back then and what went through his head. Probably moved by a point you repeatedly make, that Smile was this huge black hole in Brian's life and every decision he made after March 67 was affected by or a result of the shelving of Smile.

That makes Brian almost two-dimensional, but that's an angle which builds up a myth that may have very comfortably suited him since then.

[CenturyDeprived]

But try to present me with a plausible hypothetical situation where, at that time, Brian would have been able to *quickly* write an album with any other choice of lyricist. And present me a situation where this new choice of non-Mike lyricist doesn't cause Brian to have to hear a metric ton of grief for again bringing in yet another outsider, especially in the wake recent history showing that working on songs in a non-proven nontraditional way = catastrophic public failure.

As far as I know, Brian did write Wild Honey with Mike. You're the one advocating that that's not what he really wanted to do in 1967, so what you're basically doing is to presume what Brian's motiovations were back then and what went through his head. Probably moved by a point you repeatedly make, that Smile was this huge black hole in Brian's life and every decision he made after March 67 was affected by or a result of the shelving of Smile.

That makes Brian almost two-dimensional, but that's an angle which builds up a myth that may have very comfortably suited him since then.

I don't see what you've just said as anything resembling a direct response to my specific question in the paragraph of mine which you've quoted. I'd honestly like to hear a plausible-sounding scenario of an alternative path he could've chosen (that gets the album done QUICK and avoids more questions/friction).

I truthfully don't think there is one - but please present me with one if I'm mistaken.

Does that in and of itself (the lack of plausible-sounding alternative options given the circumstances) mean that writing an album with Mike in 1967 is "not what he really wanted to do", and that he was somehow forced/coaxed into it? Not necessarily.

It seems obvious to me that it was primarily a matter of it having been an easily achievable thing to do at a time when he MOST needed his goals to have had the ability to be met with easily achievable actions - and he may have convinced himself that he "wanted" to do it on some level. But I think that (at most) only part of him really "wanted" to.

[Dancing Bear]

But try to present me with a plausible hypothetical situation where, at that time, Brian would have been able to *quickly* write an album with any other choice of lyricist. And present me a situation where this new choice of non-Mike lyricist doesn't cause Brian to have to hear a metric ton of grief for again bringing in yet another outsider, especially in the wake recent history showing that working on songs in a non-proven nontraditional way = catastrophic public failure.

As far as I know, Brian did write Wild Honey with Mike. You're the one advocating that that's not what he really wanted to do in 1967, so what you're basically doing is to presume what Brian's motiovations were back then and what went through his head. Probably moved by a point you repeatedly make, that Smile was this huge black hole in Brian's life and every decision he made after March 67 was affected by or a result of the shelving of Smile.

That makes Brian almost two-dimensional, but that's an angle which builds up a myth that may have very comfortably suited him since then.

I don't see what you've just said as anything resembling a direct response to my specific question in the paragraph of mine which you've quoted. I'd honestly like to hear a plausible-sounding scenario of an alternative path he could've chosen (that gets the album done QUICK and avoids more questions/friction).

I truthfully don't think there is one - but please present me with one if I'm mistaken.

Uh, do I have to present evidence that collaborating with Mike wasn't the only path he could take? Does anyone have to prove that collaborating with Van Dyke for the next album after Pet Sounds was what Brian really wanted to do? Why would I have to do that? He did work with Van Dyke, that's all. Is anyone here questioning the ulterior motives Brian might have had?

If I answer that Brian could have worked with another lyricist, you'll say that a next album had to be ready for Christmas, and it was unpratical to search for an outsider for the job.

Well, it was also unpractical to bring Parks to the fold and he did.

Now, if I must prove that Brian felt like writing with Mike in late'67, sorry. I don't have a straight channel to his mind in 2014 or 1967.

On the other hand, do you? You presume that Brian's conflicts with his cousin during Smile were so deep that he would never want to write with him 6 months after. Is this a fact? So, why you're sitting in Brian's brain circa 67, please photocopy the intended tracklist for Smile. We'll apreciate it. 

[CenturyDeprived]

But try to present me with a plausible hypothetical situation where, at that time, Brian would have been able to *quickly* write an album with any other choice of lyricist. And present me a situation where this new choice of non-Mike lyricist doesn't cause Brian to have to hear a metric ton of grief for again bringing in yet another outsider, especially in the wake recent history showing that working on songs in a non-proven nontraditional way = catastrophic public failure.

As far as I know, Brian did write Wild Honey with Mike. You're the one advocating that that's not what he really wanted to do in 1967, so what you're basically doing is to presume what Brian's motiovations were back then and what went through his head. Probably moved by a point you repeatedly make, that Smile was this huge black hole in Brian's life and every decision he made after March 67 was affected by or a result of the shelving of Smile.

That makes Brian almost two-dimensional, but that's an angle which builds up a myth that may have very comfortably suited him since then.

I don't see what you've just said as anything resembling a direct response to my specific question in the paragraph of mine which you've quoted. I'd honestly like to hear a plausible-sounding scenario of an alternative path he could've chosen (that gets the album done QUICK and avoids more questions/friction).

I truthfully don't think there is one - but please present me with one if I'm mistaken.

Uh, do I have to present evidence that collaborating with Mike wasn't the only path he could take? Does anyone have to prove that collaborating with Van Dyke for the next album after Pet Sounds was what Brian really wanted to do? Why would I have to do that? He did work with Van Dyke, that's all. Is anyone here questioning the ulterior motives Brian might have had?

If I answer that Brian could have worked with another lyricist, you'll say that a next album had to be ready for Christmas, and it was unpratical to search for an outsider for the job.

Well, it was also unpractical to bring Parks to the fold and he did.

Now, if I must prove that Brian felt like writing with Mike in late'67, sorry. I don't have a straight channel to his mind in 2014 or 1967.

On the other hand, do you? You presume that Brian's conflicts with his cousin during Smile were so deep that he would never want to write with him 6 months after. Is this a fact? So, why you're sitting in Brian's brain circa 67, please photocopy the intended tracklist for Smile. We'll apreciate it.  

You don't "have" to answer anything, of course. I can't say I know all or any of the facts about these guys motivations, and neither can you. We're both making educated guesses given the circumstantial evidence.

But - in a discussion where I'm trying to point out that there weren't really any realistic alternative options that avoid more friction and an expedited turnaround, you haven't exactly refuted that statement of mine either.

Agreeing with my presumption that there were likely no realistic/plausible alternative options (given the circumstances) other than working with Mike does NOT necessarily mean that you also have to feel that Brian didn't "want" to work with Mike.  While this statement isn't what I believe, one can believe that: Despite the fact that admittedly Brian didn't really have any options that wouldn't have caused him more friction and another compromised timeline, that, irrelevant to and independent of that situation, Brian decided he'd just simply like to work with Mike again.

[Dancing Bear]

If you proposed that Brian was in fact an alien, I can't refute that statement without a DNA test, either.

So... Brian may be an alien or not. Educated guesses.

[CenturyDeprived]

If you proposed that Brian was in fact an alien, I can't refute that statement without a DNA test, either.

So... Brian may be an alien or not. Educated guesses.

Hardy har  

Hey, I'm willing to admit that others who think differently than me can have a point sometimes, even it somehow "undermines" my stance on things. I wish you could return the favor. I'd just honestly like a list of a few (even one) alternative options that you honestly think Brian could have taken that wouldn't have also caused more friction in the band.

(tumbleweed blows by)...

[alf wiedersehen]

Well, if we use Smiley Smile as a reference (and as people have noted, there's nothing to indicate Mike disliked making the album), we can see an approach that Brian took to this. Firstly, you have a couple outside collaborations, granted, those are left-overs from the Smile album. Secondly, Brian wrote a lot of the lyrics himself, something that was a bit unusual at this point. Thirdly, you have the collaborations with Mike Love, these being the singles (because, as I mentioned, Mike and Brian had a history of scoring high-charting singles).

This wasn't just an album of Brian being forced into working with Mike, it was a mix of different approaches - and it worked out just fine.