Why the Mike/Bruce Combo?

[Dancing Bear]

Well let's say that it passes Mike's mind in 1967 when he sees SMiLE crumble, or in 1968 when he starts to witness a downward trajectory of his cousin.

At that point, what would Mike's rationale be for not apologizing - what does Brian have to apologize for at that point?  The legitimate crediting issue is still festering, yes. It's a BIG deal, clearly. Maybe the biggest root cause of crap between those guys ever, even if Murry's a big culprit too. And, Mike is resentful that he's been pushed aside as a lyricist (but now is enjoying, despite a lowered BB popularity, being one of primary BB lyricists once again). Maybe some other squabbles that I can't think of at the moment.

Still, most especially when he started seeing someone beginning to destroy themselves out of depression/regret/etc (largely sourced from this project), I don't quite see how whatever baggage Mike had with Brian at *that* point in their lives would really rationalize a non-apology (assuming he even for a moment considered giving one).

These guys may have been done with the past, but the past wasn't done with them.

Drug use.

Yep. The culprit. The way Mike Love sees the world. Completely 100% black and white. Drug use and nothing but. Or drug use plus the bad hangers-on plus Murry's damage. And that's it. Open and shut case.  

If drug use hadn't been a factor, and SMiLE still similarly collapsed, I feel comfortable in assuming a non-apology would have still been the way it was. There'd always have been a way to rationalize a non-apology.

Sure. He's human after all. Apologizing sucks. 

[Nicko1234]

So do you think that Brian's people had no overall rough draft whatsoever for how a continued C50 could happen, and that it never even got to the preliminary discussion stage because Mike simply said he's going back to M&B and that's that? (Mind you, I don't dispute this could be what happened).

No, I don`t think they did because it was never planned.

 

[CenturyDeprived]

So do you think that Brian's people had no overall rough draft whatsoever for how a continued C50 could happen, and that it never even got to the preliminary discussion stage because Mike simply said he's going back to M&B and that's that? (Mind you, I don't dispute this could be what happened).

No, I don`t think they did because it was never planned.

 

If (and it remains an if) that's what happened, it just seems even more underhanded/passive aggressive to me for Mike to not have at least been willing to discuss a possible future and see if *some* agreeable terms could possibly be negotiated, once it became obvious that Brian for sure wanted to continue. Regardless of his super important prior "commitments".

I'd at least give him a smidgen of credit if he'd sat down and listened/brainstormed with Brian's team about options but then decided that no option other than the M&B Sea World 4Ever Tour would suffice (and maybe some discussions did take place, though doubtful).  I think it was seeding ego-fueled resentment by Mike during C50/recording TWGMTR that caused him to make his mind up, and then quietly take actions behind the scenes booking future shows at some point early/midway during the C50 tour, to ensure he'd get things his way in the end.  IMO it's the brass knuckles style of negotiating. I hope M&B are able to negotiate a great fee for playing a show at the Set End Date-ona 500.

For Mike to not anticipate huge fallout and a further frayed relationship with his cousin is incomprehensible to me. He let a wound begin to heal a good deal and then ripped the scab off again. IMO only a crazy person does such things. I'll just have to facepalm at the entire thing, and while I respect you having a right to your opinion, I'll forever remain baffled by those who can find a way to defend the man's actions on this matter.

[Jonathan Blum]

I'm fine with him not getting it.

I'm not -- I'm still curious.  I'd like to know why you think "Summer's Gone" is trying to pastiche Mike's lyrics.  What Mike songs do you think it's trying to be like?

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Jonathan Blum]

I think you overestimate a lot of things about the reunion tour and about how realistic the possibilities were that, even if it had carried on for a few more months, Brian would have wanted it to be done every year.

I think you're underestimating the number of possible ways things could have worked out regardless.  A Beach Boys in which you had four of the five members on tour while Brian stays home prepping the next album, and only plays a few selected dates...  it's not like that never worked before!

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[CenturyDeprived]

I think you overestimate a lot of things about the reunion tour and about how realistic the possibilities were that, even if it had carried on for a few more months, Brian would have wanted it to be done every year.

I think you're underestimating the number of possible ways things could have worked out regardless.  A Beach Boys in which you had four of the five members on tour while Brian stays home prepping the next album, and only plays a few selected dates...  it's not like that never worked before!

Cheers,
Jon Blum

+1

[Nicko1234]

If (and it remains an if) that's what happened, it just seems even more underhanded/passive aggressive to me for Mike to not have at least been willing to discuss a possible future and see if *some* agreeable terms could possibly be negotiated, once it became obvious that Brian for sure wanted to continue. Regardless of his super important prior "commitments".

I'd at least give him a smidgen of credit if he'd sat down and listened/brainstormed with Brian's team about options but then decided that no option other than the M&B Sea World 4Ever Tour would suffice (and maybe some discussions did take place, though doubtful).  I think it was seeding ego-fueled resentment by Mike during C50/recording TWGMTR that caused him to make his mind up, and then quietly take actions behind the scenes booking future shows at some point early/midway during the C50 tour, to ensure he'd get things his way in the end.  IMO it's the brass knuckles style of negotiating. I hope M&B are able to negotiate a great fee for playing a show at the Set End Daytona 500.

Errr, that doesn`t make much sense now does it. They booked more shows because...they wanted to play more shows as they always do. And the intention from everybody was that the C50 tour was a one time only thing. Al said it. Bruce said it. Everybody knew it.

For Mike to not anticipate huge fallout and a further frayed relationship with his cousin is incomprehensible to me. He let a wound begin to heal a good deal and then ripped the scab off again. I'll just have to facepalm at the entire thing, and while I respect you having a right to your opinion, I'll forever remain baffled by those who can find a way to defend the man's actions on this matter.

I think there`s been a crossing of wires.  

I can completely understand why people were angry and disappointed at Mike saying no to more shows in the end as I`ve said. The things I quibbled with were the more fantastical comments that you made about how Mike should feel compelled to do anything that Brian wishes and that you think Mike and Bruce should have been willing to go out and play to piddling crowds without The Beach Boys name while Brian and Joe Thomas noodled in the studio.  

No, the criticism Mike received at the time (espcecially when you consider the poorly worded statement) was to be expected. As mentioned before though, the C50 would all have been over by now anyway...

[Nicko1234]

I think you're underestimating the number of possible ways things could have worked out regardless.  A Beach Boys in which you had four of the five members on tour while Brian stays home prepping the next album, and only plays a few selected dates...  it's not like that never worked before!

Cheers,
Jon Blum

So they would have played some shows with Brian`s band and Brian there and other shows with a completely different backing band? Yeah, that would have been workable. 

[CenturyDeprived]

If (and it remains an if) that's what happened, it just seems even more underhanded/passive aggressive to me for Mike to not have at least been willing to discuss a possible future and see if *some* agreeable terms could possibly be negotiated, once it became obvious that Brian for sure wanted to continue. Regardless of his super important prior "commitments".

I'd at least give him a smidgen of credit if he'd sat down and listened/brainstormed with Brian's team about options but then decided that no option other than the M&B Sea World 4Ever Tour would suffice (and maybe some discussions did take place, though doubtful). I think it was seeding ego-fueled resentment by Mike during C50/recording TWGMTR that caused him to make his mind up, and then quietly take actions behind the scenes booking future shows at some point early/midway during the C50 tour, to ensure he'd get things his way in the end.  IMO it's the brass knuckles style of negotiating. I hope M&B are able to negotiate a great fee for playing a show at the Set End Date-ona 500.

Errr, that doesn`t make much sense now does it. They booked more shows because...they wanted to play more shows as they always do. And the intention from everybody was that the C50 tour was a one time only thing. Al said it. Bruce said it. Everybody knew it.

The one time only thing was the initial intent, yes. Nobody knew how this C50 thing was gonna turn out in the end. The return to the M&B show plans could still have be changed/amended, and the same reasons I've stated above IMO are the main reasons why that change wasn't even considered and was quietly quashed by Mike. 2012 Mike seems about as open to change as he was in 1966.

[Nicko1234]

The one time only thing was the initial intent, yes. Nobody knew how this C50 thing was gonna turn out in the end. The return to the M&B show plans could still have be changed/amended, and the same reasons I've stated above IMO are the main reasons why that change wasn't even considered and was quietly quashed by Mike. 2012 Mike seems about as open to change as he was in 1966.

Touring with Brian`s backing band and agreeing to add an extra 23 shows wasn`t a change from the norm then?

[CenturyDeprived]

The one time only thing was the initial intent, yes. Nobody knew how this C50 thing was gonna turn out in the end. The return to the M&B show plans could still have be changed/amended, and the same reasons I've stated above IMO are the main reasons why that change wasn't even considered and was quietly quashed by Mike. 2012 Mike seems about as open to change as he was in 1966.

Touring with Brian`s backing band and agreeing to add an extra 23 shows wasn`t a change from the norm then?

A brief period of change followed by a return to a safely empowered Mike norm is not what I meant by change.  I meant being open the potential of a long-term amending of things. Shades of the Pet Sounds lyric-writing broken handshake agreement. History repeated itself. Anything resembling a situation where Mike loses control (other than in the short term) freaks him the f*ck out, and he. will. not. ever. let. that. happen... come hell or high water.  I think he's showed his macho and made that pretty clear by now.

[Nicko1234]

A brief period of change followed by a return to a safely empowered Mike norm is not what I meant by change.  I meant being open the potential of a long-term amending of things. Shades of the Pet Sounds lyric-writing broken handshake agreement. History repeated itself. Anything resembling a situation where Mike loses control (other than in the short term) freaks him the f*ck out, and he. will. not. ever. let. that. happen... come hell or high water. I think he's showed his macho and made that pretty clear by now.

    

What long term-amending? There was no long term amending. You have a vivid imagination I will give you that.

[Gabo]

boyfranz

[CenturyDeprived]

A brief period of change followed by a return to a safely empowered Mike norm is not what I meant by change.  I meant being open the potential of a long-term amending of things. Shades of the Pet Sounds lyric-writing broken handshake agreement. History repeated itself. Anything resembling a situation where Mike loses control (other than in the short term) freaks him the f*ck out, and he. will. not. ever. let. that. happen... come hell or high water. I think he's showed his macho and made that pretty clear by now.

     

What long term-amending? There was no long term amending. You have a vivid imagination I will give you that.

I was making an analogy regarding Mike's fear of losing control...We have 1966 Brian possibly deciding (or good chance it was in Brian's head as a potential idea) that Mike may no longer be the primary BB lyricist going forward (surely a deep fear of Mike's when Van Dyke came into the picture after Tony Asher)...  if SMiLE had been completed, it's highly possible that Mike would indeed have no longer have been Brian's primary lyricist to future songs. As it happened in actuality with SMiLE's demise, Mike briefly reclaimed his throne (-ish), so to speak. IMO via Mike's resistance to PS + SMiLE (vocal sessions notwithstanding), he did what he could to ensure that a permanent lyricist "demotion" wouldn't be the case then... much like he did what he could to ensure that he wouldn't be "demoted" post C50 as well by not even being willing to consider offers of amending his safe bet of M&B.

[Nicko1234]

I was making an analogy regarding Mike's fear of losing control...We have 1966 Brian possibly deciding (or good chance it was in Brian's head as a potential idea) that Mike may no longer be the primary BB lyricist going forward (surely a deep fear of Mike's when Van Dyke came into the picture after Tony Asher)...  if SMiLE had been completed, it's highly possible that Mike would indeed have no longer have been Brian's primary lyricist to future songs. As it happened in actuality with SMiLE's demise, Mike reclaimed his throne (-ish), so to speak. IMO via Mike's resistance, he did what he could to ensure that wouldn't be the case then... much like he did what he could to ensure that he wouldn't be "demoted" post C50 as well by not even being willing to consider offers of amending his safe bet of M&B.

The idea of `demotion` is entirely in your mind.

[CenturyDeprived]

I was making an analogy regarding Mike's fear of losing control...We have 1966 Brian possibly deciding (or good chance it was in Brian's head as a potential idea) that Mike may no longer be the primary BB lyricist going forward (surely a deep fear of Mike's when Van Dyke came into the picture after Tony Asher)...  if SMiLE had been completed, it's highly possible that Mike would indeed have no longer have been Brian's primary lyricist to future songs. As it happened in actuality with SMiLE's demise, Mike reclaimed his throne (-ish), so to speak. IMO via Mike's resistance, he did what he could to ensure that wouldn't be the case then... much like he did what he could to ensure that he wouldn't be "demoted" post C50 as well by not even being willing to consider offers of amending his safe bet of M&B.

The idea of `demotion` is entirely in your mind.

Losing power/ceding control/demotion... I'm using these terms interchangeably. He did what he could do to ensure he wouldn't lose control of the band in anything other than a very temporary capacity. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

My, you do talk some nonsense. Mike agreed to lay aside his touring for a finite timespan, then agreed to further extend that timespan on the understanding that this was it (one which, apparently, Brian also stipulated). Given this assurance, Mike booked more dates fro his band and then Brian changes his mind. Now, were those names reversed the fans would be saying "tough sh*t Mike, Brian said "no more" and that's it, can't have it both ways bub". The big thing here is not what happened, but who said and did what.

And once more, my view, not that you asked: let it lie. The whole C50 package was astonishing, way better than we had any right to expect*, and it's never, ever going to be that good again, so don't push it. This kind of lightening never strikes twice. Could anyone here conceive, in January 2012, a better, more fitting coda to The Beach Boys recording career than the final three song sweep on TWGMTR ? The first time I heard it, I sh*t myself, fell over backwards, died and went straight to heaven. That good, and it still is. It moves me, on so many levels, even now. For possibly the only time in their post-Smile career, they were presented with the opportunity to do it right and (for the most part) didn't screw up.


[*except the live album, which will royally suck from now until the end of time and doubtless some way beyond]

[Jonathan Blum]

So they would have played some shows with Brian`s band and Brian there and other shows with a completely different backing band? Yeah, that would have been workable. 

Surely they'd engage the band on a tour-by-tour basis?  If Brian wanted to do a mini-tour with them, they'd be bound to have a somewhat different lineup.  But not that different from what a Mike-Bruce-Al-David band would already be...  for a start, with Al and Dave on guitar, they probably wouldn't need Christian Love around.

I'm thinking if they were going to do an arrangement where they parachuted Brian in for specific shows, they'd probably have gone for a reduced version of the C50 lineup -- Scott and John are already there, Brian would no doubt bring Jeff with him for his dates, and if he wanted to drop in a keyboard or bass player of his choice for those dates they might be able to swing it.  I doubt they'd have gone for the full Von Mertens Orchestra, but Brian would still be surrounded by people who were now familiar to him...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[El Molé]

The big thing here is not what happened, but who said and did what.

I think the big thing is not what happened, but what's happening now and into the future. It's not Mike's fault that Brian agreed to a fixed number of additional dates and nothing further and it isn't Mike's fault that Brian then changed his mind (that's only my understanding from what I've ready here - no idea if it's true). Equally, it isn't Brian's fault that Mike booked new dates for his touring band and couldn't or wouldn't then agree to do a further tour with the full line-up. Why does any of that matter now? They've both arguably handled the aftermath of it all very badly, but absolutely none of this would be difficult to fix. Mike could very easily have explained that he'd made other commitments lasting until (say) the end of 2013, but would be able to do a tour in 2014. Brian could have accepted that or chosen not to - either way they'd both have had the option of doing a further Beach Boys tour together. That's still true now. At one stage at least, Brian claimed that he was disappointed not to be able to continue the tour. Mike said it was Brian's choice to end it, but if they both wanted to book a tour they could do that now, next year, 2015 or whenever they want to.

Problem solved? Probably not, because all of the arguments about who ended the reunion are a distraction from what I suspect are more fundamental disagreements. I don't know exactly what they are, but Mike and Brian have the choice to work together or not and are choosing not to. Different perspectives on why they stopped working together in 2012 are largely irrelevant to that. Maybe it's the cost of a bigger band, more principles, bigger set-up. Maybe it's the set list, maybe it's family disagreements, maybe Mike's too jealous of Brian's hair - I haven't got a clue. But a full Beach Boys tour or even an occasional show is still an option for all concerned if they wanted to do it. Whether it'd be a good thing or not, I'm unsure of (although as someone who unavoidably missed seeing a C50 show and has never seen the Beach Boys live, I'd love to have the opportunity to in the future).

[shelter]

the past and current evidence suggests that only one person has been prepared to work extensively with Brian more than once - Joe Thomas

And Eugene Landy. 

[Cam Mott]

This may have been offered before but maybe the disagreement was between Brian and his people but the agreement was between Brian's people and Mike's people? We only hear Brian and Mike's complaints but the actual decisions/agreements were made by their "people".

[Dancing Bear]

Why would Mike want to return to a situation where he has to permanently walk over eggshells around Brian? He clearly doesn't. Now you could argue that he'd be still pumping gas if not for his genius cousin yadda yadda but in the end it's a decision that he took already in his 70s. Maybe he'd rather do things his way. It's easy for us to think that working with Brian is an honor, but we haven't been doing it for decades and we only think about that some minutes a day, after being done with work, friends, relationships, everything.

[shelter]

Why would Mike want to return to a situation where he has to permanently walk over eggshells around Brian?

Last time Mike made an album with Brian, it went to #3. Last time he made an album without Brian, he couldn't even find anyone who wanted to release it. That should say enough.

I agree that it must be very difficult to work with Brian. But it's not that hard to see why Mike would still be temped to try again anyway.

[Ron]

They also have the situation where its pretty hard for Rock stars to stay together for 52 years.  I'll bet Mick and Keith hate each other.  There's about 10 times more money involved though, so they suck it up.   

No amount of money can get Paul & Ringo together, they just make appearances for free, for 10 minutes, about once a decade so nobody thinks they're assholes.

[Robbie Mac]

No amount of money can get Paul & Ringo together, they just make appearances for free, for 10 minutes, about once a decade so nobody thinks they're assholes.

John Lennon and George Harrison being dead might have a little bit of bearing on why Paul and Ringo don't tour together.