Why the Mike/Bruce Combo?

[Nicko1234]

Thanks for finding it necessary to personally insult me in this thread by saying that I have a complete lack of understanding of human nature.   No need to get personal, man. This is not true. I can "understand" Mike wanting what he wants, and not "wanting" to give up what he feels he has somehow rightly earned.  I can also understand that ego/fear of change/not wanting to lose control are also elements of human nature to some people - surely you must admit that's true, regardless of whether or not you agree (or apparently not, in your case) that these were the prime factors of what happened behind the scenes in this case. IMO, my overall view in this matter is influenced by the fact that I apparently see things about who owes who a preponderance of favors/concessions, etc. (at this point in the game, with the saga of this band - and its members' relationships/histories taken into consideration) differently than you.

Not meaning to be personal at all but this is what I mean by human nature.

Mike has been in charge of The Beach Boys for decades (for better or worse). Now your idea that anybody who is in charge of a company would just say to a former partner, `you were the genius behind things 50 years ago so I will cede complete control to you and will do no work for the company without your say so. This will lose me millions of dollars but I will take a part time job on the side and will happily wait for you to tell me if and when we will work together in the future` is completely unrealistic. Completely. Human beings do not behave like that.

[Cam Mott]

I don't understand an attitude that seems to think the Boys should put up with almost anything from Brian. Some seem to put Brian even above the law. Over stating but barely.

[CenturyDeprived]

Thanks for finding it necessary to personally insult me in this thread by saying that I have a complete lack of understanding of human nature.   No need to get personal, man. This is not true. I can "understand" Mike wanting what he wants, and not "wanting" to give up what he feels he has somehow rightly earned.  I can also understand that ego/fear of change/not wanting to lose control are also elements of human nature to some people - surely you must admit that's true, regardless of whether or not you agree (or apparently not, in your case) that these were the prime factors of what happened behind the scenes in this case. IMO, my overall view in this matter is influenced by the fact that I apparently see things about who owes who a preponderance of favors/concessions, etc. (at this point in the game, with the saga of this band - and its members' relationships/histories taken into consideration) differently than you.

Not meaning to be personal at all but this is what I mean by human nature.

Mike has been in charge of The Beach Boys for decades (for better or worse). Now your idea that anybody who is in charge of a company would just say to a former partner, `you were the genius behind things 50 years ago so I will cede complete control to you and will do no work for the company without your say so. This will lose me millions of dollars but I will take a part time job on the side and will happily wait for you to tell me if and when we will work together in the future` is completely unrealistic. Completely. Human beings do not behave like that.

I believe that example analogy to be quite extreme compared to whatever circumstances Mike presumably had to deal with. If Mike had ceded "complete control", we wouldn't likely have songs like Daybreak on TWGMR, for starters. Not saying he didn't make compromises, but there were most certainly compromises made in *his* favor.

And another example of why it shouldn't have been out of the realms of reality for 2012 Brian to regain control: there existed a working framework for this band where Brian was in charge and essentially had the final artistic say on matters (not to say his opinion couldn't be influenced at the time, but he was the big kahuna), during the 1960s. It's not like this power structure should be a completely foreign concept to anyone in the band. Now, admittedly a 70 year old Brian being "in charge" with the latter day wife/managers is a different concept to Mike and Co. But "power" and control has shifted back and forth between various factions of the band many times over the years, and it shouldn't be an unthinkable concept.

But in the end, to me, this is about Mike not knowing when stepping down a few levels from a "power" position may just be the right thing to do for the situation. And I'm thinking of it in a sense too of Brian simply deserving what he wants at this time a little more than Mike, who's been able to have things on his terms for 16 years. Mike doesn't have to see it that way, and due to the massive chip he still obviously has on his shoulder about lots of stuff, he probably never will - but IMO he *should*.

And finally: Brian found it in himself to step down from whatever level of "control" he had, and allowed himself to no longer be in the creative "driver's seat" following the 15BO/Love You era. Of course, Brian had lots of issues at the time including drug problems, but the point being that here's an example of a BB ceding control because he just decided that fighting for control simply *wasn't worth it* at the time. And guess what: he lived to tell about it. He's ok. The world didn't end. Mike could possibly have found it in his heart to do a similar (albeit with different circumstances) thing. Ceding control wouldn't have been the end of the world for him, either. I'm just saying that it's not as impossible as you make it out to be.
 

[Nicko1234]

But in the end, to me, this is about Mike not knowing when stepping down a few levels from a "power" position may just be the right thing to do for the situation. And I'm thinking of it in a sense too of Brian simply deserving what he wants at this time a little more than Mike, who's been able to have things on his terms for 16 years.

This is not how human beings behave. 

[SMiLE Brian]

I agree with CD 100 percent in this thread, Mike wants to  control  the BBs without the vision or skill needed to. Brian wanted  to make the  BBs a recording group again, Mike wants an endless summer nostalgia act.

[CenturyDeprived]

But in the end, to me, this is about Mike not knowing when stepping down a few levels from a "power" position may just be the right thing to do for the situation. And I'm thinking of it in a sense too of Brian simply deserving what he wants at this time a little more than Mike, who's been able to have things on his terms for 16 years.

This is not how human beings behave.  

Dude - if we are gonna talk about human nature and say that certain actions are beyond what humans would do, I'd argue that Mike has done a vast number of things over the years that are far far beyond my comprehension - and while the Wilsons have also, to IMO a generally lesser (and different, apples to oranges degree), Mike's are far less comprehensible to me on the whole.

So let's just say that this is not how Mike Love behaves (as proven by his actions)... but not a blanket statement that this is not how humans (or even other BBs) behave.  In fact, adding to my prior analogy, I'd also argue that to his credit, Mike himself has done it (power concession) to Brian before, specifically during the "Love You" era. It shouldn't be totally unthinkable, despite the different circumstances now. Mike wasn't as "powerful" in the band then (just before "Love You") as he is now, since Carl/Dennis were still in the picture... so I see it as a matter of the more power you give him, the more reluctant (and positively damned he'll be) to genuinely give it back.

I'd bet you top dollar there are many humans (and I'm talking about normal people, even people who've lived crazy rock star lives) who could decide to be the bigger person and show they've evolved where they've placed their priorities.   In person, I witnessed Mike firsthand getting emotional at the Grammy Museum (when he was there w/California Saga), and seeing that emotion (you could have heard a pin drop) honestly started to positively change my opinion of the man, and I really really really hoped he'd started turning over a new leaf, but based on what happened a few months later, I suppose I gave him too much credit.

[Sheriff John Stone]

But in the end, to me, this is about Mike not knowing when stepping down a few levels from a "power" position may just be the right thing to do for the situation. And I'm thinking of it in a sense too of Brian simply deserving what he wants at this time a little more than Mike, who's been able to have things on his terms for 16 years. Mike doesn't have to see it that way, and due to the massive chip he still obviously has on his shoulder about lots of stuff, he probably never will - but IMO he *should*.

Mike's been able to have things on his terms for 16 years? How about 40 years?

It's not just about how Mike feels. It's about how Brian DIDN'T FEEL for a very long period of time, for about 45 years. It's back to that human nature thing again.

Mike has been the Beach Boys' biggest fan for 53 years. He just keeps working and working and working. And he loved it. He persevered through the hard times and he never gave up on the band. And there were times when various group members didn't want to be part of it, in varying degrees, especially Brian.

Let's be honest, since 1968, since Friends, Brian was a very part-time Beach Boy for many of the ensuing years. He didn't want to tour, there were years when he contributed maybe one or two - or zero - songs to Beach Boys' albums. And, for the last twenty-eight years Brian has been mainly a solo artist. However, for many of the previous 46 years, the thought of Brian coming back and leading the Beach Boys, or just contributing to the Beach Boys on any level, has been an enticing proposition, one which I'm sure Mike Love welcomed. I know he welcomed it because he repeated it in almost all of his interviews. But things have changed.

IMO IMO IMO IMO I don't think Mike views Brian Wilson entirely the way he used to. When Brian performs in concert, he is the worst singer and musician on the stage. Mike probably thinks, "Hey, Brian hasn't had a Top Ten record since "Good Vibrations" which was 48 years ago. His solo albums come and go with barely a ripple. And I contributed to Kokomo which went to No. 1. He could use ME. We'd complement each other. " Even though Mike would love to write with Brian like it's 1965, I think Mike is also aware, more than we give him credit for, at knowing who the Brian Wilson is today, which is not who he was in 1965, if that makes sense.

But most of all, I think Mike feels - and I completely understand why - that he (Mike) worked hard, plugged away, stayed the course, was faithful and dedicated, through all the drugs and illness and death, and always WANTED TO BE A BEACH BOY. On the other hand, Mike might feel - and I completely understand why - that Brian didn't want to tour (work?), didn't believe in the future of the group, dedicated the majority of his efforts to his solo career, AND DIDN'T WANT TO BE A BEACH BOY. I imagine Mike thought this because of Brian's continued attempts at having a solo career and because of negative and hurtful comments made in interviews.

Now - NOW - it's 2012 and Brian Wilson decides that he wants to be a Beach Boy. For the record I don't think he did (I think he wanted a break from an unhappy and overwhelming solo career) but just say that he did. So how do expect Mike to feel? How would you feel? Can you be honest? Can you admit how you might feel? It goes back to that human nature thing. I'm not gonna hammer Mike because I would probably share many of the same feelings. Hey Brian, where have you been for the last 28 years? And what was it you were saying that you never wanted to work with The Beach Boys and Mike Love again, that the group died with Carl, that you never think about them, and that your group is better than The Beach Boys were. Yeah, it might be a little of that old cliche "What goes around comes around..."

I really don't know if Mike viewed Brian's rejoining the Beach Boys in 2012 in a resentful way, even in a small way. I wouldn't be surprised if he did. Does that make him a bad person? No, I don't think so. He's human. It's human nature...

[Jim V.]

It's human nature...

Why? Why??

[Sheriff John Stone]

It's human nature...

Why? Why??

Come on, sweetdudejim. We're just making conversation, good conversation, on a rock and roll message board. We're just discussing one possible reason (out of many?) why Mike Love doesn't relent to Brian's wishes (and I questioned if Brian really had any). Some people can understand and agree with Mike. Other posters, as usual, think that Mike is wrong for feeling the way he feels.

"Why" you ask? Why should or would human nature play a part? Is that what you're asking? Because we're dealing with human beings, people, people with feelings. Mike has his feelings and Brian has his. We're just trying to figure out how those feelings contributed to the decisions that directly affected the C50 reunion. Obviously we haven't been able to agree on that yet!

[Dancing Bear]

I think some fans care way more about another reunion than Brian himself.

[Shady]

I think some fans care way more about another reunion than Brian himself.

If another reunion never happens I doubt Brian would care for a second, sadly I think the same can be said for Mike.

[Robbie Mac]

It's human nature...

Why? Why??

Come on, sweetdudejim. We're just making conversation, good conversation, on a rock and roll message board. We're just discussing one possible reason (out of many?) why Mike Love doesn't relent to Brian's wishes (and I questioned if Brian really had any). Some people can understand and agree with Mike. Other posters, as usual, think that Mike is wrong for feeling the way he feels.

"Why" you ask? Why should or would human nature play a part? Is that what you're asking? Because we're dealing with human beings, people, people with feelings. Mike has his feelings and Brian has his. We're just trying to figure out how those feelings contributed to the decisions that directly affected the C50 reunion. Obviously we haven't been able to agree on that yet!

Jim's Michael Jackson joke obviously went over your head.

[Jim V.]

It's human nature...

Why? Why??

Come on, sweetdudejim. We're just making conversation, good conversation, on a rock and roll message board. We're just discussing one possible reason (out of many?) why Mike Love doesn't relent to Brian's wishes (and I questioned if Brian really had any). Some people can understand and agree with Mike. Other posters, as usual, think that Mike is wrong for feeling the way he feels.

"Why" you ask? Why should or would human nature play a part? Is that what you're asking? Because we're dealing with human beings, people, people with feelings. Mike has his feelings and Brian has his. We're just trying to figure out how those feelings contributed to the decisions that directly affected the C50 reunion. Obviously we haven't been able to agree on that yet!

Jim's Michael Jackson joke obviously went over your head.

Thanks Andy. You did get the joke!

Hope things are well with Nancy by the way.

[Sheriff John Stone]

It's human nature...

Why? Why??

Come on, sweetdudejim. We're just making conversation, good conversation, on a rock and roll message board. We're just discussing one possible reason (out of many?) why Mike Love doesn't relent to Brian's wishes (and I questioned if Brian really had any). Some people can understand and agree with Mike. Other posters, as usual, think that Mike is wrong for feeling the way he feels.

"Why" you ask? Why should or would human nature play a part? Is that what you're asking? Because we're dealing with human beings, people, people with feelings. Mike has his feelings and Brian has his. We're just trying to figure out how those feelings contributed to the decisions that directly affected the C50 reunion. Obviously we haven't been able to agree on that yet!

Jim's Michael Jackson joke obviously went over your head.

 

[Dancing Bear]

I think some fans care way more about another reunion than Brian himself.

If another reunion never happens I doubt Brian would care for a second, sadly I think the same can be said for Mike.

For Brian it would be like doing abother Gerschwin project. One was enough, why bother? Now for Mike it would be like doing another prostate exam.  

[Nicko1234]

So let's just say that this is not how Mike Love behaves (as proven by his actions)... but not a blanket statement that this is not how humans (or even other BBs) behave.

I'd bet you top dollar there are many humans (and I'm talking about normal people, even people who've lived crazy rock star lives) who could decide to be the bigger person and show they've evolved where they've placed their priorities.   In person, I witnessed Mike firsthand getting emotional at the Grammy Museum (when he was there w/California Saga), and seeing that emotion (you could have heard a pin drop) honestly started to positively change my opinion of the man, and I really really really hoped he'd started turning over a new leaf, but based on what happened a few months later, I suppose I gave him too much credit.

Then you`d lose your money.  

Honestly, the things you are talking about are far removed from reality. Now if your point was that Mike should have continued with the C50 tour and played the shows that were on offer for the rest of that year (when he and Brian were jointly in charge of The Beach Boys) then I think there are a lot of people who would agree with you.

But your comments about Mike and Bruce going out and playing dates without the Beach Boys name really are absurd as another poster has said. Absurd to think that Brian or Melinda would make such a suggestion and absurd to think that Mike and Bruce would consider it. You can`t ask the boss of a company to start cleaning the toilets and expect them to consider it.

And you are actually suggesting a level of control over the group that Brian has never had in the past. Even in the 60s, while he was absolutely in charge in the studio, he was not responsible for dictating the touring schedule to the extent that he would instruct band members to take several months off and force them to do solo tours under their own names.

With Mike we are not talking about Al, Bruce or David here (none of whom had any real power in the C50 make-up). We are talking about one of the bosses and the boss just doesn`t drop down to being a rank and file employee again.

[CenturyDeprived]

But in the end, to me, this is about Mike not knowing when stepping down a few levels from a "power" position may just be the right thing to do for the situation. And I'm thinking of it in a sense too of Brian simply deserving what he wants at this time a little more than Mike, who's been able to have things on his terms for 16 years. Mike doesn't have to see it that way, and due to the massive chip he still obviously has on his shoulder about lots of stuff, he probably never will - but IMO he *should*.

Mike's been able to have things on his terms for 16 years? How about 40 years?

It's not just about how Mike feels. It's about how Brian DIDN'T FEEL for a very long period of time, for about 45 years. It's back to that human nature thing again.

Mike has been the Beach Boys' biggest fan for 53 years. He just keeps working and working and working. And he loved it. He persevered through the hard times and he never gave up on the band. And there were times when various group members didn't want to be part of it, in varying degrees, especially Brian.

Let's be honest, since 1968, since Friends, Brian was a very part-time Beach Boy for many of the ensuing years. He didn't want to tour, there were years when he contributed maybe one or two - or zero - songs to Beach Boys' albums. And, for the last twenty-eight years Brian has been mainly a solo artist. However, for many of the previous 46 years, the thought of Brian coming back and leading the Beach Boys, or just contributing to the Beach Boys on any level, has been an enticing proposition, one which I'm sure Mike Love welcomed. I know he welcomed it because he repeated it in almost all of his interviews. But things have changed.

IMO IMO IMO IMO I don't think Mike views Brian Wilson entirely the way he used to. When Brian performs in concert, he is the worst singer and musician on the stage. Mike probably thinks, "Hey, Brian hasn't had a Top Ten record since "Good Vibrations" which was 48 years ago. His solo albums come and go with barely a ripple. And I contributed to Kokomo which went to No. 1. He could use ME. We'd complement each other. " Even though Mike would love to write with Brian like it's 1965, I think Mike is also aware, more than we give him credit for, at knowing who the Brian Wilson is today, which is not who he was in 1965, if that makes sense.

But most of all, I think Mike feels - and I completely understand why - that he (Mike) worked hard, plugged away, stayed the course, was faithful and dedicated, through all the drugs and illness and death, and always WANTED TO BE A BEACH BOY. On the other hand, Mike might feel - and I completely understand why - that Brian didn't want to tour (work?), didn't believe in the future of the group, dedicated the majority of his efforts to his solo career, AND DIDN'T WANT TO BE A BEACH BOY. I imagine Mike thought this because of Brian's continued attempts at having a solo career and because of negative and hurtful comments made in interviews.

Now - NOW - it's 2012 and Brian Wilson decides that he wants to be a Beach Boy. For the record I don't think he did (I think he wanted a break from an unhappy and overwhelming solo career) but just say that he did. So how do expect Mike to feel? How would you feel? Can you be honest? Can you admit how you might feel? It goes back to that human nature thing. I'm not gonna hammer Mike because I would probably share many of the same feelings. Hey Brian, where have you been for the last 28 years? And what was it you were saying that you never wanted to work with The Beach Boys and Mike Love again, that the group died with Carl, that you never think about them, and that your group is better than The Beach Boys were. Yeah, it might be a little of that old cliche "What goes around comes around..."

I really don't know if Mike viewed Brian's rejoining the Beach Boys in 2012 in a resentful way, even in a small way. I wouldn't be surprised if he did. Does that make him a bad person? No, I don't think so. He's human. It's human nature...

I appreciate your post, Sheriff, and I think that a lot of those factors/thoughts are certainly at play here to varying degrees. And I can sympathize with Mike for (presumably) feeling some of these ways.

The elephant in the room, as far as I see it, is that for 47 years, Mike has (seemingly) absolved himself of *any* responsibility whatsoever for his role in the SMiLE saga. We have certainly been down that road of debate before on this board maaaaaaaany times before, and I'd rather not get sidetracked by talking about OUR opinions of whether or not Mike had any role in the demise of SMiLE - for the simple reason that OUR opinions on that have no bearing on what Brian (probably) feels, which is what I'm discussing here. (And I bring this up because I think it pertains to the ongoing problems these guys STILL have, especially including the C50 blowup).

I assume that Brian (probably since 1967 and continuing to this day, even if he's found a way to put elements of those feelings behind him) feels that Mike had *some* role in derailing some artistic and personal aspects of his life. Even if you are an ardent Mike Love defender and think it is 110% untrue that Mike should be in any way shape or form be held accountable for SMiLE... I'd think you could at least concede that it's highly probably that *Brian* has truly, deeply, in his heart, felt that way to some degree in his life. Probably for decades.

Brian's feelings are real to Brian. If he felt that someone deeply hurt his feelings, "wronged him" in some way (even a small way), and that emotional fallout of this event indirectly led to many other bad things in his life, I'd imagine that he would have wanted some acknowledgement from Mike, and he probably wanted it most decades ago.

IMO IMO, Brian probably feels that Mike should still apologize to him and take a portion of responsibility, or at least state that some of his actions might have been regrettable in hindsight - even if it's just for having unintentionally hurt his feelings.  That said... you and I have no idea what conversations have gone on about said topics between Mike/Brian behind closed doors. Maybe Mike has apologized to Brian at some point about this stuff. But honestly, I highly doubt it, since I'd think there'd be a glimmer of acknowledgement on the public front.

I know people myself who simply, no matter what, cannot fess up to having deeply hurt someone else. Dealing with people like that is next to impossible. I do not know how to be this way. If someone close to me, especially family or bandmate, told me that I had hurt their feelings deeply about something (or it became obvious that they felt that way even without saying it), I'd most certainly want to address the matter directly with them as soon as possible, and somehow resolve as best I could - giving the other person an honest, real acknowledgement that my actions may have done harm (even if it was hard for me to fully understand the harm - sometimes people just want an honest apology to say that if there was anything they did that was hurtful, they deeply regret having hurt the person). And I would do this, even if I felt that the person may be blowing things out of proportion, because I feel it's important to genuinely acknowledge someone's feelings and pain.

I think that the ultimate unresolved issue between Brian + Mike is Mike's probable decades-long unwillingness to address some of the stuff I've mentioned above. Or if it was ever addressed kinda sorta, it was probably not ever to a degree of Brian's satisfaction. I don't want to get into a another pointless discussion about "Mike has NOTHING to apologize to Brian for", because IMO it's a matter of the ability (or lack thereof) to *acknowledge someone's feelings* more than anything, and it IS possible to do that EVEN IF someone (Mike) has found a way to internally absolve himself 110%.

Anyway, despite the SMiLE Sessions box making some inroads in helping to mend those fences, I think that part of Brian feeling "entitled" to go in and out of the BBs as he pleases is that he feels like his bandmates (especially Mike) should be extra accommodating to him to make up for what he perceives as past injustices, especially the way he probably feels he wasn't given full the support (to the degree he needed it - many group vocal sessions notwithstanding) he deserved back in '67.   

[Dancing Bear]

Again treating Mike as a human being... Let's say that it passes through his mind that he should apologize to Brian for Smile. An unconfortable feeling. How does it go away? Easy. Rationalizing that Brian has a lot to apologize for as well, and hell will freeze over before it happens, so he also shouldn't bother.

That's how old folks do after knowing each other for 60 or 70 years.



PS: I'm not in any way implying that Brian or Mike should apologize.

[CenturyDeprived]

So let's just say that this is not how Mike Love behaves (as proven by his actions)... but not a blanket statement that this is not how humans (or even other BBs) behave.

I'd bet you top dollar there are many humans (and I'm talking about normal people, even people who've lived crazy rock star lives) who could decide to be the bigger person and show they've evolved where they've placed their priorities.   In person, I witnessed Mike firsthand getting emotional at the Grammy Museum (when he was there w/California Saga), and seeing that emotion (you could have heard a pin drop) honestly started to positively change my opinion of the man, and I really really really hoped he'd started turning over a new leaf, but based on what happened a few months later, I suppose I gave him too much credit.

Then you`d lose your money.  

Honestly, the things you are talking about are far removed from reality. Now if your point was that Mike should have continued with the C50 tour and played the shows that were on offer for the rest of that year (when he and Brian were jointly in charge of The Beach Boys) then I think there are a lot of people who would agree with you.

But your comments about Mike and Bruce going out and playing dates without the Beach Boys name really are absurd as another poster has said. Absurd to think that Brian or Melinda would make such a suggestion and absurd to think that Mike and Bruce would consider it. You can`t ask the boss of a company to start cleaning the toilets and expect them to consider it.

And you are actually suggesting a level of control over the group that Brian has never had in the past. Even in the 60s, while he was absolutely in charge in the studio, he was not responsible for dictating the touring schedule to the extent that he would instruct band members to take several months off and force them to do solo tours under their own names.

With Mike we are not talking about Al, Bruce or David here (none of whom had any real power in the C50 make-up). We are talking about one of the bosses and the boss just doesn`t drop down to being a rank and file employee again.

My comments about Mike and Bruce going out and playing dates without the Beach Boys name were just a hypothetical scenario. I think it makes more sense for them to have just chilled the f*ck out on playing shows whatsoever for a time. Many, many, many bands do it. Just because he wasn't "used" to it, doesn't mean he couldn't find it in himself to take that route.

Mike's addiction to the road is rarely discussed as one of the legitimately destructive addictions that has plagued BB bandmates... and while it's not on the level of Brian's/Dennis' addictions, IMO it IS absolutely a genuine addiction (especially these days) that causes him to have blinders on, much in the way that substance addicts do.

In your opinion, what non C50-implosion scenarios were being proposed by Brian's team to Mike & Bruce (or would have been)? We can only guess whether or not any proposals were actually made, or whether it never even got to that point. But I'm curious to know what you think that Brian's team would ACTUALLY have proposed to Mike which caused him to short circuit.

[CenturyDeprived]

Again treating Mike as a human being... Let's say that it passes through his mind that he should apologize to Brian for Smile. An unconfortable feeling. How does it go away? Easy. Rationalizing that Brian has a lot to apologize for as well, and hell will freeze over before it happens, so he also shouldn't bother.

That's how old folks do after knowing each other for 60 or 70 years.



PS: I'm not in any way implying that Brian or Mike should apologize.

Well let's say that it passes Mike's mind in 1967 when he sees SMiLE crumble, or in 1968 when he starts to witness a downward trajectory of his cousin.

At that point, what would Mike's rationale be for not apologizing - what does Brian have to apologize for at that point?  The legitimate crediting issue is still festering, yes. It's a BIG deal, clearly. Maybe the biggest root cause of crap between those guys ever, even if Murry's a big culprit too. And, Mike is resentful that he's been pushed aside as a lyricist (but now is enjoying, despite a lowered BB popularity, being one of primary BB lyricists once again). Maybe some other squabbles that I can't think of at the moment.

Still, most especially when he started seeing someone beginning to destroy themselves out of depression/regret/etc (largely sourced from this project), I don't quite see how whatever baggage Mike had with Brian at *that* point in their lives would really rationalize a non-apology (assuming he even for a moment considered giving one).

These guys may have been done with the past, but the past wasn't done with them.

[kiwi surfer]

I don't know about it being an "addiction" but I once asked Mike after the last show of a fairly long tour involving significant air travel what he intended to do before the next tour. I had envisioned a week at home with his feet up and not budging an inch. He was booked on an Asian cruise. At least the hotel room wouldn't change every day or two. Perhaps you have a point.

[Nicko1234]

Mike's addiction to the road is rarely discussed as one of the legitimately destructive addictions that has plagued BB bandmates... and while it's not on the level of Brian's/Dennis' addictions, IMO it IS absolutely a genuine addiction (especially these days) that causes him to have blinders on, much in the way that substance addicts do.

That`s what many musicians from the 60s do because that`s what they were brought up doing. Do you think that Bob Dylan or Peter Noone or Wayne Fontana or whoever are addicts too?   Take a look at all of the Solid Silver 60s tours that go on and you will see that these guys just love going out there are performing.

In your opinion, what non C50-implosion scenarios were being proposed by Brian's team to Mike & Bruce (or would have been)? We can only guess whether or not any proposals were actually made, or whether it never even got to that point. But I'm curious to know what you think that Brian's team would ACTUALLY have proposed to Mike which caused him to short circuit.

Short circuit???  

I think that Mike was probably asked whether he would be willing to play more dates from October onwards and responded with a negative by explaining that he already had dates booked with Bruce as everybody was aware and that they were going to continue with the plan that they had always had. Now I can understand people being disappointed that he wouldn`t change his plans but it hardly represents a `short circuit`.  

[Nicko1234]

Well let's say that it passes Mike's mind in 1967 when he sees SMiLE crumble, or in 1968 when he starts to witness a downward trajectory of his cousin.

At that point, what would Mike's rationale be for not apologizing - what does Brian have to apologize for at that point?  The legitimate crediting issue is still festering, yes. It's a BIG deal, clearly. Maybe the biggest root cause of crap between those guys ever, even if Murry's a big culprit too. And, Mike is resentful that he's been pushed aside as a lyricist (but now is enjoying, despite a lowered BB popularity, being one of primary BB lyricists once again). Maybe some other squabbles that I can't think of at the moment.

Still, most especially when he started seeing someone beginning to destroy themselves out of depression/regret/etc (largely sourced from this project), I don't quite see how whatever baggage Mike had with Brian at *that* point in their lives would really rationalize a non-apology (assuming he even for a moment considered giving one).

These guys may have been done with the past, but the past wasn't done with them.

Drug use.

[CenturyDeprived]

Mike's addiction to the road is rarely discussed as one of the legitimately destructive addictions that has plagued BB bandmates... and while it's not on the level of Brian's/Dennis' addictions, IMO it IS absolutely a genuine addiction (especially these days) that causes him to have blinders on, much in the way that substance addicts do.

That`s what many musicians from the 60s do because that`s what they were brought up doing. Do you think that Bob Dylan or Peter Noone or Wayne Fontana or whoever are addicts too?   Take a look at all of the Solid Silver 60s tours that go on and you will see that these guys just love going out there are performing.

In your opinion, what non C50-implosion scenarios were being proposed by Brian's team to Mike & Bruce (or would have been)? We can only guess whether or not any proposals were actually made, or whether it never even got to that point. But I'm curious to know what you think that Brian's team would ACTUALLY have proposed to Mike which caused him to short circuit.

Short circuit???  

I think that Mike was probably asked whether he would be willing to play more dates from October onwards and responded with a negative by explaining that he already had dates booked with Bruce as everybody was aware and that they were going to continue with the plan that they had always had. Now I can understand people being disappointed that he wouldn`t change his plans but it hardly represents a `short circuit`.  

It's not the huge amount of dates in and of itself that makes me call it an addiction; it's the ideology that THAT unchanged scenario must keep going at all costs no matter what regardless if we can record another great album no matter if the public will crucify me for it very very deeply causing my wife and children deep distress enough so to get legitimately emotional on facebook messageboards for it.... etc, etc etc.

So do you think that Brian's people had no overall rough draft whatsoever for how a continued C50 could happen, and that it never even got to the preliminary discussion stage because Mike simply said he's going back to M&B and that's that? (Mind you, I don't dispute this could be what happened).

[CenturyDeprived]

Well let's say that it passes Mike's mind in 1967 when he sees SMiLE crumble, or in 1968 when he starts to witness a downward trajectory of his cousin.

At that point, what would Mike's rationale be for not apologizing - what does Brian have to apologize for at that point?  The legitimate crediting issue is still festering, yes. It's a BIG deal, clearly. Maybe the biggest root cause of crap between those guys ever, even if Murry's a big culprit too. And, Mike is resentful that he's been pushed aside as a lyricist (but now is enjoying, despite a lowered BB popularity, being one of primary BB lyricists once again). Maybe some other squabbles that I can't think of at the moment.

Still, most especially when he started seeing someone beginning to destroy themselves out of depression/regret/etc (largely sourced from this project), I don't quite see how whatever baggage Mike had with Brian at *that* point in their lives would really rationalize a non-apology (assuming he even for a moment considered giving one).

These guys may have been done with the past, but the past wasn't done with them.

Drug use.

Yep. The culprit. The way Mike Love sees the world. Completely 100% black and white. Drug use and nothing but. Or drug use plus the bad hangers-on plus Murry's damage. And that's it. Open and shut case.  

If drug use hadn't been a factor, and SMiLE still similarly collapsed, I feel comfortable in assuming a non-apology would have still been the way it was. There'd always have been a way to rationalize a non-apology.