Why the Mike/Bruce Combo?

[CenturyDeprived]

I'd sure *like* to think that Brian stopped being bummed out as soon as that LA Times article was written, and that he completely moved on emotionally from the pains he experienced with the C50 situation (without so much as a hint of effect on him personally or creatively) without looking back, aided by his current-day support system. Brian's decades-long history of bum trips effecting his musical output make me have doubts of this scenario being fully accurate, though.

Yes, but when Brian was on his downward spirals, he did less in the studio.  Here after C50, for an extended period of time, he did more.

The idea that "Radio" and the reunion tour going on fired up Brian's desire to record more music seems entirely believable to me.  So does the fact that, given that Brian didn't go into a reclusive withdrawal after the final debacle, but instead went into the studio with Al and Dave, indicates that his reaction may have been more along the lines of "well I'm doing what *I* want, even if you don't wanna play".

Cheers,
Jon Blum

I believe it's certainly possible that this is how Brian sees it. From the outside, it very fortunately seems that he is operating emotionally on a more healthy/resilient level than in years past, relatively speaking.

Ultimately though IMO, if the C50 sh*t hadn't hit the fan, I think that Brian, feeling that he was back as the head Beach Boy (and feeling that the band and the brand name being taken more seriously - with lots of continued public goodwill and all the band members united/moving forward harmoniously) may have put his heart + soul more into a post TWGMTR "Beach Boys" product more than the project he is currently working on. Considering the brand name, perhaps there would simply have been more "weight" behind that project to push him more to get it right. Yes the current project involves other Beach Boys, but as far as I presume, it's not going to be released under the artist banner "Beach Boys".

Post C50, Brian is forging on, working around the compromised circumstances, and good for him. I'm sure most every fan would legitimately want him to do that. But that doesn't mean his heart isn't broken a little bit and that the creative process/product will match the heights of what could've been. I hope very much to be proven wrong, and for the new album to kick major butt.

[KittyKat]

I thought Capitol was backing Brian's latest project(s), as they would have if it were a Beach Boys' album. 

Another thing I recall reading from a Joe Thomas interview is that Joe is Brian's quality control. He said he's willing to tell Brian if something is a bad idea, and that's why Brian trusts him. For example, he cited Brian's continual attempts to do a version of "Proud Mary" as a bad idea. Hm, maybe I like Joe Thomas more than I thought. In any case, if Joe is still involved, he doesn't seem interested in Brian doing a large quantity of crap.  So, it may take longer, and produce fewer albums, but it might be a more commercial/better product that he would like Brian to release. I'm not sure what the point would be in releasing more than one album concurrently or close together. They would just get lost that way.

[Jim V.]

Brian also could have not set people up to then f*** them over and then make out it was their fault. Just an idea but then Brian would be responsible and accountable for his own actions so let's just blame Obamacare.

I gotta know Cam. Would you have preferred that Mike wrote the lyrics for "From There To Back Again" and "Summer's Gone"?

I also wanna know how you are privy to all the info on who owed who what in order for the reunion to take place. Because you always talk about these "promises" that Brian didn't live up to. But I'm pretty sure you have no sources for this info besides a few Mike Love interviews you've read.

[CenturyDeprived]

Brian also could have not set people up to then f*** them over and then make out it was their fault. Just an idea but then Brian would be responsible and accountable for his own actions so let's just blame Obamacare.

I gotta know Cam. Would you have preferred that Mike wrote the lyrics for "From There To Back Again" and "Summer's Gone"?

I also wanna know how you are privy to all the info on who owed who what in order for the reunion to take place. Because you always talk about these "promises" that Brian didn't live up to. But I'm pretty sure you have no sources for this info besides a few Mike Love interviews you've read.

And sometimes, as history has told us, promises by Brian to Mike are broken in the name of positive artistic benefit, such as the promise that songwriting would be back to Brian/Mike for the album following Pet Sounds. Instead, Brian got inspired to work with VDP. If Brian was adamant to strictly always keep his promises to Mike verbatim, songs like Surf's Up wouldn't exist. We aren't talking about mortgage contracts or something. It should be looked at as art, and art evolves. Yes the band is a business too, but it seems that at a certain point, especially with people approaching the home stretch of their able years, there are some things that should be more important (to already very rich people) than maximizing every cent of profit out of excessive touring.

To insinuate there were intentional "set someone up with a premeditated intent to f*ck them over" goings on seems way extreme to me. To whatever degree promises by Brian to Mike "were broken" in C50 and in the other example I've mentioned, I doubt there was intent from the start to deceive. I think it was more of a genuine initial itention that wound up evolving due to circumstance, with overall beneficial artistic intent being a significant factor driving the change and "broken promise". Sometimes broken promises and evolving can actually be a good thing (artistically + legacy-speaking) in the big picture, since a purely stand-your-ground-damn-the-consequences ideology can often be very shortsighted.

[Doo Dah]

I thought Capitol was backing Brian's latest project(s), as they would have if it were a Beach Boys' album. 

This was my understanding as well, KK but I would be (pleasantly) surprised if Capitol was on board for three subsequent albums. More than likely, it's album to album. Kind of ratchets up the need for the first one outta the box to be solid.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I thought Capitol was backing Brian's latest project(s), as they would have if it were a Beach Boys' album. 

Another thing I recall reading from a Joe Thomas interview is that Joe is Brian's quality control. He said he's willing to tell Brian if something is a bad idea, and that's why Brian trusts him. For example, he cited Brian's continual attempts to do a version of "Proud Mary" as a bad idea. Hm, maybe I like Joe Thomas more than I thought. In any case, if Joe is still involved, he doesn't seem interested in Brian doing a large quantity of crap.  So, it may take longer, and produce fewer albums, but it might be a more commercial/better product that he would like Brian to release. I'm not sure what the point would be in releasing more than one album concurrently or close together. They would just get lost that way.

Joe's idea of "quality control" seems to be radically different from mine, if the mixing and processing of the last live album is anything to go by. Still not made it to the end of disc one. Unlistenable.

[bgas]

Here we go;

[Jim V.]

I thought Capitol was backing Brian's latest project(s), as they would have if it were a Beach Boys' album. 

Another thing I recall reading from a Joe Thomas interview is that Joe is Brian's quality control. He said he's willing to tell Brian if something is a bad idea, and that's why Brian trusts him. For example, he cited Brian's continual attempts to do a version of "Proud Mary" as a bad idea. Hm, maybe I like Joe Thomas more than I thought. In any case, if Joe is still involved, he doesn't seem interested in Brian doing a large quantity of crap.  So, it may take longer, and produce fewer albums, but it might be a more commercial/better product that he would like Brian to release. I'm not sure what the point would be in releasing more than one album concurrently or close together. They would just get lost that way.

Joe's idea of "quality control" seems to be radically different from mine, if the mixing and processing of the last live album is anything to go by. Still not made it to the end of disc one. Unlistenable.

Absolutely correct Andrew. I love The Beach Boys and can find something good in almost everything they've done. But that live album is ATROCIOUS. I think the worst is either Mike's vocal on "Don't Back Down" or the random applause in the middle of "Heroes And Villains".

[Pretty Funky]

Agree on 'Don't Back Down'. If there ever was a "F*** you Mike!" revenge gesture from Joe with regards to Mikes post C50 comments, that album and THAT track was it.

Good one Joe. Thanks for nothing from this listener!

[Cam Mott]

Brian also could have not set people up to then f*** them over and then make out it was their fault. Just an idea but then Brian would be responsible and accountable for his own actions so let's just blame Obamacare.

I gotta know Cam. Would you have preferred that Mike wrote the lyrics for "From There To Back Again" and "Summer's Gone"?

I also wanna know how you are privy to all the info on who owed who what in order for the reunion to take place. Because you always talk about these "promises" that Brian didn't live up to. But I'm pretty sure you have no sources for this info besides a few Mike Love interviews you've read.

I would have preferred real Mike lyrics because it sounds like imitation Mike lyrics anyway.

I have exactly the same info you do I'm sure, we just see it differently.

[Cam Mott]

To insinuate there were intentional "set someone up with a premeditated intent to f*ck them over" goings on seems way extreme to me. To whatever degree promises by Brian to Mike "were broken" in C50 and in the other example I've mentioned, I doubt there was intent from the start to deceive. I think it was more of a genuine initial itention that wound up evolving due to circumstance, with overall beneficial artistic intent being a significant factor driving the change and "broken promise". Sometimes broken promises and evolving can actually be a good thing (artistically + legacy-speaking) in the big picture, since a purely stand-your-ground-damn-the-consequences ideology can often be very shortsighted.

I haven't "insinuated" anymore then you have I don't think. Brian insisted no more dates, then publically claimed he was an injured party by no more dates, that's the way I see it.

Broken promises are broken promises however one rationalizes them.

[Moon Dawg]

I thought Capitol was backing Brian's latest project(s), as they would have if it were a Beach Boys' album. 

Another thing I recall reading from a Joe Thomas interview is that Joe is Brian's quality control. He said he's willing to tell Brian if something is a bad idea, and that's why Brian trusts him. For example, he cited Brian's continual attempts to do a version of "Proud Mary" as a bad idea. Hm, maybe I like Joe Thomas more than I thought. In any case, if Joe is still involved, he doesn't seem interested in Brian doing a large quantity of crap.  So, it may take longer, and produce fewer albums, but it might be a more commercial/better product that he would like Brian to release. I'm not sure what the point would be in releasing more than one album concurrently or close together. They would just get lost that way.

Joe's idea of "quality control" seems to be radically different from mine, if the mixing and processing of the last live album is anything to go by. Still not made it to the end of disc one. Unlistenable.

  I bought the LIVE 50 album last week. Same reaction; I can't make it through disc one.

[Jim V.]

Brian also could have not set people up to then f*** them over and then make out it was their fault. Just an idea but then Brian would be responsible and accountable for his own actions so let's just blame Obamacare.

I gotta know Cam. Would you have preferred that Mike wrote the lyrics for "From There To Back Again" and "Summer's Gone"?

I also wanna know how you are privy to all the info on who owed who what in order for the reunion to take place. Because you always talk about these "promises" that Brian didn't live up to. But I'm pretty sure you have no sources for this info besides a few Mike Love interviews you've read.

I would have preferred real Mike lyrics because it sounds like imitation Mike lyrics anyway.

I have exactly the same info you do I'm sure, we just see it differently.

They don't sound like Mike lyrics to me. Maybe Mike's lyrics on Today! but definitely not anything recent, since, ya know, there's no mention of "fun, fun, fun", "good vibrations", or wanting to  "come out rockin' with Rhonda and Barbara Ann, singing of surf and sand."

[Cam Mott]

Right. They sound like an imitator of Mike's glory days lyrics and the music sounds like an imitator of Brian's glory days music.

[Jim V.]

Right. They sound like an imitator of Mike's glory days lyrics and the music sounds like an imitator of Brian's glory days music.

So it would be fair to say that you don't care for "From There To Back Again" and "Summer's Gone", since you think it's just "imitation"?

[Cam Mott]

Right. They sound like an imitator of Mike's glory days lyrics and the music sounds like an imitator of Brian's glory days music.

So it would be fair to say that you don't care for "From There To Back Again" and "Summer's Gone", since you think it's just "imitation"?

No, they are fine but would be better with both authentic imitations of music and lyrics.

They are both the best they can be now but not the best of their glory days. I'm not knocking it from them, it's the way it is imo and lucky to have. I'd rather have what they come up with together and I think they both would rise to the occasion and then we would have world peace.

[Jim V.]

Right. They sound like an imitator of Mike's glory days lyrics and the music sounds like an imitator of Brian's glory days music.

So it would be fair to say that you don't care for "From There To Back Again" and "Summer's Gone", since you think it's just "imitation"?

No, they are fine but would be better with both authentic imitations of music and lyrics.

They are both the best they can be now but not the best of their glory days. I'm not knocking it from them, it's the way it is imo and lucky to have. I'd rather have what they come up with together and I think they both would rise to the occasion and then we would have world peace.

But what are they an imitation of? If anything, I suppose one could say "Summer's Gone" takes after "Caroline No" which was not written by Mike Love. So how does it make it "inauthentic" if it's taking after a song that Mike had nothing to do with.

And anyways, by your standards, isn't most of Pet Sounds and SMiLE inauthentic Beach Boys material? Shoot, I guess even stuff like "Little Deuce Coupe" and "Lonely Sea" wouldn't qualify as authentic material. And while we're at it, I'd say That's Why God Made The Radio was a much more authentic Beach Boys album than the largely Terry Melcher written Summer In Paradise, but I never heard you voice complaints about that one.

It seems like you just feel that Mike isn't getting a fair shake from the fanbase and therefore are making up reasons to diss TWGMTR, kinda like Mike himself has.

[Cam Mott]

You're free to imagine whatever you wish about me. It's not my favorite album, I'm glad it exist anyway.

[Jim V.]

You're free to imagine whatever you wish about me. It's not my favorite album, I'm glad it exist anyway.

I was assuming you would actually respond to my post rather than that deflection.

Do you feel that Beach Boys material that isn't cowritten by Mike Love is inauthentic? Because that's the way you made it seem, just because Brian didn't ask him to write the lyrics to some of the best material he's written in years.

[KittyKat]

Yes, but Brian didn't write that material by himself. Joe made substantial contributions to the music, including on the life suite. It's hard to know how substantial, but it was admitted to. So, Joe was channeling Brian for some musical parts, and channeling Mike for some lyrics.

[Jonathan Blum]

I would have preferred real Mike lyrics because it sounds like imitation Mike lyrics anyway.

Can you point to a single actual Mike Love song ever with lyrics as thoroughly downbeat as "Summer's Gone"?

Mike Love moodiness is "Please Let Me Wonder" or "Kiss Me Baby".  "Summer's Gone" is not coming from anywhere near that place, and it seems hard to justify a case that it was aiming for Mike Love moodiness and missing...

Regards,
Jon Blum

[Jim V.]

I would have preferred real Mike lyrics because it sounds like imitation Mike lyrics anyway.

Can you point to a single actual Mike Love song ever with lyrics as thoroughly downbeat as "Summer's Gone"?

Mike Love moodiness is "Please Let Me Wonder" or "Kiss Me Baby".  "Summer's Gone" is not coming from anywhere near that place, and it seems hard to justify a case that it was aiming for Mike Love moodiness and missing...

Regards,
Jon Blum

Jon, don't bother, Cam's just trying to convince himself that the album would've been better if it had more lyrics like "Hare Krishna, gonna miss ya"!

[CenturyDeprived]

I would have preferred real Mike lyrics because it sounds like imitation Mike lyrics anyway.

Can you point to a single actual Mike Love song ever with lyrics as thoroughly downbeat as "Summer's Gone"?

Mike Love moodiness is "Please Let Me Wonder" or "Kiss Me Baby".  "Summer's Gone" is not coming from anywhere near that place, and it seems hard to justify a case that it was aiming for Mike Love moodiness and missing...

Regards,
Jon Blum

I don't know why there even has to be a question of whether or not some (and maybe lots, depending on ones' personal taste) of Brian's best BB work has happened with lyricists other than Mike. That statement should be able to be considered a matter of historical fact, without it being thought of as any kind of put down to Mike (it isn't).

Even if a given fan loves loves LOVES Mike - and thinks that he and Brian are capable of making magic together - why is it a problem/issue if some (or maybe, a lot of) great art under the BB name is made with a non-Mike lyricist?  Even for uber Mike defenders who think that Mike has been "wronged" and historically "shortchanged creatively" or something.  

Unquestionably, Brian sometimes just *wants* to work with other people, and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that... the problem IMO, of course, is that Mike thinks he is "owed" something. Based on some of Mike's statements, it's fair to surmise that he roughly thinks he's Paul McCartney to Brian's John Lennon - but let's face it, that's not really reality. And Brian probably realizes this is how Mike's felt for decades, but doesn't have the heart to outright tell Mike that this isn't reality either.

And you know the way Brian had to be told by Andy Paley (and others) to stop recycling previously-used riffs? The way Brian had to be watched and told to stop rewriting Shortening Bread 249 times? Well, maybe Mike also needs to be told to stop ever referencing old song lyrics/titles again.  I mean, he seriously needs an intervention - not kidding. It's clearly a problem on the scale of Brian's Shortening Bread obsession, only far more publicly embarrassing, IMO.

I get the idea that some fans in their hearts "want" Brian/Mike to write great art together - to write legitimately good music. And these fans are emotionally attached to that idea, and cannot comprehend that this may be an impossibility at this point. Well, consider that maybe, just maybe, Brian in his heart at this point in his life doesn't really truly desire to ever again work with Mike in a songwriting capacity, and would prefer Mike to just be utilized as a BB vocalist, like the majority of the Pet Sounds era.

I don't know if that's the case... but *if* it were proven that this were Brian's true desire... what would Mike do/say in response? Well, Mike would probably walk away and feel very hurt. What would the uber Mike fans say? That Mike should assert himself and never sing on a BB song again?  I would say after weighing the options, and realizing that the age clock is a tickin', Mike should just go with the flow, check his ego at the door, and go sing his heart out. Mike's done it before in the past (with great final results still coming out of the studio)... and there shouldn't be any reason he can't do the same now (if that's what's being asked of him) - other than the hypothetical, remote possibility that this is all actually about ego. Which is why this is so infuriating.

[Ron]

I'll never understand why people feel the need to ignore the things they don't like about their favorite superstars. 

Brian is like GOD to music, I agree with that... I also love the guy, he's great, I wish he were my next door neighbor.

To act like he's this harmed, hurt, beaten down good guy who Mike Love stole the Beach Boys name from is a little rich, though.

Just a couple facts that I'm sure Andrew will chime in and dispute, in his smarmy way

1. Brian knowingly, purposefully, intently f***ed Mike out of millions of dollars in song writing credits
2. Brian voted to let Mike use the Beach Boys name
3. Brian makes money every time Mike hobbles out onto stage at the Mohecan Sun Casino in South Dakota or wherever the f*** he is tonight
4. Brian cound not, and would not, support even half the tour dates that Mike does
5. Brian has made a lot of money off the beach boys doing a lot of nothing for a lot of years
6. For as hard as Mike is to work with, when you work with Brian you first must work with the dozen sycophants that coddle him
7. Brian makes more money, and wants more money, deservedly so, than Mike does

I love the guy to death but Mike's not the only hard one to work with here, folks.


My point?  The Brianista revisionist history thing gets a little old.  The guy is stlil just as great at everything if you'll admit he has shortcomings, and don't automatically assume that every business deal he has that goes sour has nothing to do with his sweet, innocent, never harmed a butterfly self. 

[Cam Mott]

We don't all have to share the same opinions.