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Author Topic: Carl Wilson and Smile  (Read 7043 times)
silodweller
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« on: February 14, 2014, 06:56:15 AM »

Hi all,
I understand that in the early seventies Carl and Stephen Desper were working with some of the Smile sessions for a possible release of the album by Warner Brothers.  Is that correct?  If so, did they reach the point of assembling a possible list of tracks that could be worked on?  Was that list documented?  Just interested.   Grin
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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2014, 07:27:06 AM »

After Surf's Up (song) had worked so well they were encouraged to see if something similar could be done with the remaining Smile tapes, but found it to be a complete mess and Brian wasn't exactly willing to help them piece together. However, VDP was around at that time and even recorded vocals for ADITLOT so I wonder to which extent Jack and Carl consulted with him.
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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 08:09:59 AM »

What is ADITLOT?
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The Shift
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« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2014, 08:10:51 AM »

A day in the life of a tree…
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« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2014, 10:03:50 AM »

Cheers John, saved me from going and looking through the collection! Cheesy
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« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2014, 10:38:52 AM »

Has it been documented anywhere about Carl's role in finishing "Cabin Essence" and "Surf's Up" from the SMiLE sessions back in the late '60's?

Dennis helped out with the backing vocals to CE and Stephen Desper added his expertise engineering.

Without them we would never have heard these masterpieces as near to their completed form and I can't thank them enough for this even though it may have been against Brian's wishes.

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silodweller
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« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2014, 09:35:03 AM »

Hm, "a complete mess"?  That's a shame.  I'm sure I came across a little snippet of information a few years ago that gave a list of the tracks that Carl and Stephen Desper were considering for a possible future release but perhaps I'm mistaken.  Actually, I'm sure "Do You Like Worms" was on that list...   I know that Brian wasn't exactly enamoured with the idea that these tracks were even being considered, let alone worked on.  According to sources he jumped in his car and disappeared while "Surf's Up" was being worked on, but didn't he make the contribution of "A children's song, have you listened as they play..."?  Anyway, I honestly feel that (I am taking a chance here!) Brian never got round to finishing "Smile" simply because the task of piecing it all together seemed impossible to him, (Hell, I know making edits to a few tracks can be a frigthening thing!) and also, I believe he might've been just a tad lazy with regard to that aformentioned task.  Think about it, he was in a complete creative streak long before "Pet Sounds".  His musical output is EXTRAORDINARY for such a short space of time!  He moves into "Smile" territory, still feeling that great impetus but then it starts to dwindle.  It happens to most people who are creative, doesn't it?  Either you just get down to the task and FINISH or you move on to something else.  I know I've done that with music I've composed.  I once junked an entire album's worth of material.  The very material that I considered "wonderful" when I first started working on it!  Anyway, it's certainly not a slur on Brian's character, and I have strayed somewhat from the original post topic but these are the ramblings of someone who has had a few to drink this evening, so I do apologize!  That list still intrigues me though...   Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 09:37:00 AM by silodweller » Logged

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Cam Mott
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« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2014, 11:48:08 AM »

Think about it, he was in a complete creative streak long before "Pet Sounds".  His musical output is EXTRAORDINARY for such a short space of time!  He moves into "Smile" territory, still feeling that great impetus but then it starts to dwindle.  It happens to most people who are creative, doesn't it?  Either you just get down to the task and FINISH or you move on to something else.  I know I've done that with music I've composed.  I once junked an entire album's worth of material.  The very material that I considered "wonderful" when I first started working on it!  Anyway, it's certainly not a slur on Brian's character, and I have strayed somewhat from the original post topic but these are the ramblings of someone who has had a few to drink this evening, so I do apologize!  That list still intrigues me though...   Roll Eyes

This is also my interpretation except I think the record shows Brian always knew what he was doing and what it was for when he got to the studio. He was not obsessively or speculatively recording and hoping he would find a place for or a way to put it together.  My interpretation is he was possibly trying to impress some people and went out of what was satisfying to his Muse and as he lost interest in the people he lost interest in make something to impress them. Either that or, as he has said, they did a lot of stuff that seemed great to him when high but not when he was sober. Either way his head was creating stuff his heart was not that into imo.
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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2014, 12:50:57 PM »

The editing technique that went into making GV so excited Brian that we wanted to make a whole double album song-suite using that technique -- and found out that it couldn't be done. It was just too complicated for the studio tools that they had at their disposal in those days. His failure had nothing to do with drugs or mental instability or Mike Love.

Carl couldn't put it together either. We had to wait until computers.
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silodweller
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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2014, 03:49:01 PM »

No doubt his technique of modular recording was something else!  It's what makes listening to the Smile sessions as exciting as they are.  I also don't doubt that he had a clear idea of "what went where" but by golly, whether it had anything to do with the equipment available at the time or not, I'm still convinced he decided to drop it out of lack of any real interest, and not because of drugs or cousin Mike, as a previous member of this board posted.  I agree with that poster.  So much music, so much pressure, then the Beatles, blah blah blah...  Carl did a damn good job with "Cabin Essence" but didn't Brian have a few acetates made during the recording of "Smile"?  Surely Carl had heard those acetates and worked from them in order to construct a finished product?  These are just airy-fairy thoughts from someone who continues to obsess over that great time in music history when anything seemed possible and Brian was the man leading the entire pack. 
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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2014, 05:44:53 AM »

The editing technique that went into making GV so excited Brian that we wanted to make a whole double album song-suite using that technique -- and found out that it couldn't be done. It was just too complicated for the studio tools that they had at their disposal in those days. His failure had nothing to do with drugs or mental instability or Mike Love.

Carl couldn't put it together either. We had to wait until computers.

It could be done.  You can hear it on We're Only in it for the Money, done around the same time.

I think Cam is on the right path.  In the end, Brian chose to emphasize the minimalism he toyed with for his solo version of "Surf's Up" and the first version of "Vegetables," and gave us Smiley Smile, which is essentially Party! meets Pet Sounds, satisfying both aspects of his muse.  While Brian has a serious side, I think the humorous side is dominant, and something like Smiley Smile was probably way more of an inevitability than Smile.  Part of that inevitability is Smile stemming from so much outside influence, as Cam said.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 05:50:18 AM by The Demon » Logged
lee
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« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2014, 06:26:47 AM »

I think Brian's lack of interest/direction left the building when his collaborator, Van Dyke Parks, left.
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filledeplage
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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2014, 08:25:16 AM »

The editing technique that went into making GV so excited Brian that we wanted to make a whole double album song-suite using that technique -- and found out that it couldn't be done. It was just too complicated for the studio tools that they had at their disposal in those days. His failure had nothing to do with drugs or mental instability or Mike Love.

Carl couldn't put it together either. We had to wait until computers.
Best explanation I've read. But, it was preceded by Pet Sounds, which was only lukewarmly promoted. Smile must have sent the record company off the deep end.  My sense is that they only had "so much room" (or direction of resources) for "high profile experimental music" and they went with the Fab Four.  It is amazing how they selected the 11 tracks for the LP.  

The green (however lovely) artwork, didn't make it "pop" among the hundreds of LP's competing for the $3.00 (US) price tag, in the record stores. The second "green" album in a row.  The original storefront with red (to which the eye is always drawn) might have fared better.  Maybe as "Smile Vol.1" to be worked on in a sequence, interspersed with such stuff as Wild Honey, etc.  Smile was a huge undertaking, but it turned out fine, in the end by evolving as a much-anticipated work. And, with the originals' vocals. But, I would never consider this a "failure" on any level. It was just too big and likely ahead of its time.

Fresh eyes (Darian!) and computer assistance, did seem to make the job more manageable, from all I've read.  Carl had the weight of the world on his young shoulders at that time, with his CO draft status.  And, clearly they had great committed sound people.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 08:28:14 AM by filledeplage » Logged
Micha
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« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2014, 09:34:09 AM »

Brian never got round to finishing "Smile" simply because the task of piecing it all together seemed impossible to him

I may be interpreting your words wrong, but it is a misconception that Brian just had to choose how to put all those pieces together and then do it. Look at the way Good Vibrations was created: Brian recording and rerecording and rererecording and producing lots of ultimately discarded versions.

Unlike Pet Sounds, where he recorded each song more or less in one day with great results, he was unable to do that during the SMiLE era. During SMiLE he was very undecisive about the things he had recorded, and his new producing technique of recording sections instead of whole songs made everything more complicated.

It would have been possible to edit a whole album out of those shorter pieces, but you would need to exactly know what you want. During the sessions Brian seemed to know what he wanted, but he seems to have been very insecure about the results of those sessions.

The April Vega-Tables show the most how Brian's shape had deteriorated. 2 weeks of recording for a track lightyears from the Pet Sounds sophistication and not even producing a finished version? He was NOT in great shape!



In the end, Brian chose to emphasize the minimalism he toyed with for his solo version of "Surf's Up" and the first version of "Vegetables," and gave us Smiley Smile, which is essentially Party! meets Pet Sounds,

Party! meets SMiLE rather, but it seems to me to like Brian wanted to recapture some of that Party! easiness.
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2014, 12:11:09 PM »

I think Brian's lack of interest/direction left the building when his collaborator, Van Dyke Parks, left.

I think it was kind of vice versa, although once the lyrics were written VDP's job was already done and he didn't have anymore influence over what Brian ultimately did or thought than the Boys did. "History" has tried to make the Boys out as a problem when it didn't really exist. The overlooked situation is reflected between the collaborators, Brian falling out of sync with Van Dyke. Brian eventually feeling the words and music were too arty/sophisticated and overly elaborate and Van Dyke feeling the music wasn't sophisticated enough and resenting Brian's dominance. Imo, SMiLE didn't happen because Brian and Brian alone ultimately didn't feel it in his muse.

I also think the inadequate technology angle is a red herring. Brian bragged about knowing what their physical limitations were and how to take them to the limit of possibility. Brian planned out and notated the what and where of ever bit of what he did as he did it and he did not plan something he could not physically produce. Computers and software weren't needed for butt cut editing together 3 to 6 pieces of tape that you had noted as you recorded them the places they would have in the track assembly. Imo.
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« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2014, 12:16:27 PM »

Party! meets SMiLE rather, but it seems to me to like Brian wanted to recapture some of that Party! easiness.

Thanks, Smile is what I meant to write, not Pet Sounds.
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adamghost
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« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2014, 12:21:36 PM »

I think the Zappa analogy is interesting, because from what I understand, FZ was extremely focused and a workaholic, not to mention mostly an abstainer.  He might have been the ONLY guy in the pop scene in the late '60s who could have had the skills to edit something like that together.
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clack
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« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2014, 03:17:34 PM »

I think the Zappa analogy is interesting, because from what I understand, FZ was extremely focused and a workaholic, not to mention mostly an abstainer.  He might have been the ONLY guy in the pop scene in the late '60s who could have had the skills to edit something like that together.
Zappa had an analytical mind, with a classical composer's control of large-scale structure. Brian was more of a "feel", intuitive guy. I don't think he had the whole of 'Smile' in his head before he began recording. He had an overall, general idea of what he wanted, and trusted he could get there in the end through the process of trial-and-error recording, just like he had so successfully with GV.

George RR Martin the writer has this theory of there being 2 kinds of writers -- architects and gardeners. Architects have the whole thing blueprinted before they nail up the 1st board. The gardeners dig a hole and drop in a seed. As the plant comes up and they water it, they don't know before hand how many branches the plant will have and what shape it will take, they find out as it grows.

Brian was a gardener without a blueprint, and he got lost in the details. That's my take on it, anyway.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 08:34:59 AM by clack » Logged
Micha
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« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2014, 12:36:51 AM »

Party! meets SMiLE rather, but it seems to me to like Brian wanted to recapture some of that Party! easiness.

Thanks, Smile is what I meant to write, not Pet Sounds.

So we totally agree about the feel of Smiley Smile. Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2014, 01:13:01 AM »

Brian was a gardener without a blueprint, and he got lost in the details. That's my take on it, anyway.

Totally.  Add in a lot of dope smoking, etc. and it gets tough impossible to figure out if one great arrangement of the pieces sounds better than the next.  THAT is why Smile fell apart.
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« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2014, 06:28:22 AM »

Put in another way, had Brian recorded complete songs only instead of sections, he would not have had to come up with lots of transition sections as in the case of H&V. But then still, he rerecorded Wonderful as a whole song despite having a perfect track and vocals, with inferior results. Who knows how often he would have had to record both movements of Surf's Up until he would have come up with a result that satisfied him! It would have taken him about half a year for each song...
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« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2014, 08:59:52 AM »

I think that is probably true for Carl because he didn't know the plan for the songs.

Brian did know the plan for the songs and when he changed the plan he knew the new plan for the song. He prided himself and bragged in the press how he thought about the songs and the albums before he went into the studio. And Britz and the players say he came to the studio knowing what he wanted. And sure enough he documents what each section is for each song and where they fit in the song as he recorded them and as he made changes he documented what song the new section was for where it belonged in the new version of the song. Brian was actually very focused and deliberate and organized even in his changes.

I would point out that the songs he spent the most time on and made the most changes to are songs that he actually finished. The songs he didn't finish only had a few parts that were well identified from a single session or few requiring just a few edit. I'm just saying, to me it is a fiction that Brian couldn't finish SMiLE because he didn't know how to or technology or disorganization or drugs or mental illness especially since he did finish many of the most complicated songs. To me that leaves what Brian said all along, he finished it the way he did or didn't finish because he didn't like the SMiLE version.
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« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2014, 09:08:35 AM »

The argument that Brian was pushing studio limits too far, and that the technology to pull off Smile wasn't available yet and wouldn't be until computers is, frankly, absurd. I think ever since Boyd and Linett said this in interviews after the release of the box set this argument seems to have picked up a lot of steam and is now being repeated. I don't necessarily think that they believe in that reason, rather, i suspect that explanation, as with almost anything in the world of the Beach Boys, involves politics, and the intent of presenting the BB story in either the most marketable or least thorny way.    

As Cam mentioned above, it's really just a matter of a few butt edits per song. And if the composer/arranger/producer knows what he wants and has a detailed plan mapped out, there's nothing that radically different from the technology of completing a Smile song than, say, editing in the intro of You Still Believe in Me, or the outro of I'm Waiting for the Day.

I think anyone who buys this argument must not be acquainted with the whole of Musique concrète, or what the creators of early popular electronic tape music and library music were doing at the BBC Radiophonic Workshop in London and at the Dutch Philips Research Lab close to a decade before Smile. Those methods involved hundreds of tape edits per 1-4 minute song, and this was before multi-tracking (not even 2 track), so they had to sync up several tape machines, sometimes up to eight of them (!), on top of the insane amount of editing that was required. It's a process that would sometimes take weeks to complete just one song. Listen to John Baker's stuff for the BBC Radiophonic Workshop where he would record (or, as we now call it, "sample") one sound (ex: tapping on a glass bottle) and then create an entire pop song where, by using variable tape speed, every note in the song (the notes of the melodies, harmony, and rhythm loop) was a small piece of cut tape, each note sticky-taped to the next in the sequence. This isn't just sequencing the structure of a song (verse/chorus/bridge, etc.)...it's sequencing the actual musical phrases that make up every part of a song. It's Smile on the micro level. Just look at pictures of the Philips Lab from the late '50s and the BBC Radiophonic Workshop in the early '60s and look at the sheer amount of tape hanging everywhere. Read about these methods and listen to this music (which, by the way, was popular music, not academic) and then tell me that the technology wasn't available to Brian to complete Smile in 1966/67.

There's also, as it's been mentioned, Frank Zappa, who in 1967 did something very similar (and maybe more complex?) with Lumpy Gravy to what Brian was attempting with Smile. Actually, one doesn't even have to look to outside examples because the Good Vibrations 45 happened half a year earlier. That alone is enough evidence to refute the bogus "technology" argument, which is just another Smile red herring. The story is often told that with Smile Brian was trying to do a whole album of what he had accomplished with GV but because GV took 6 months, Smile wasn't feasible. But it didn't have to take 6 months to complete GV because of technological limitations. Brian was just endlessly chasing a muse, which would take him even further down the rabbit hole with the Smile album. In '66/'67 Brian's limitations were he himself.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 12:15:54 PM by monicker » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2014, 09:28:55 AM »

Here is the song "Syncopation" from Tom Dissevelt's 1962 EP, Electronic Movements. This track was recorded in 1958 and has hundreds of edits in it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMqljWWM0jM

Listen to pretty much any early '60s stuff by John Baker, who was a wizard at this stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh4awCSSwCs

And Delia Derbyshire, who was the one who realized Ron Grainer's score to the Doctor Who theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM8uBGANASc
It's been said that while working on the Doctor Who theme, Delia would unwind the entire edited comp tape down the corridors of the BBC to see where the edits were, measuring the splices and taking notes, when she had to recut to make readjustments.

This stuff is all, from an editing and sequence standpoint, i.e. the "technology" of it, infinitely more complex than Smile.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 11:53:06 AM by monicker » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2014, 09:29:24 AM »

BWPS shows that just about every Smile song was finished, bar a couple of master vocals on a few songs. Some people say Brian didn't know how to finish Smile but I'd say the opposite - the guy was practically done and realised that the finished article just wasn't that much to his liking anymore.
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