Dennis 1983 unseen pics on Facebook

[SMiLE Brian]

A few years ago, I did one of those "how long will you live ?" quizzes, based on health, lifestyle and such. Apparently I died when I was 37. 

Thats when your old-self of bad living died.

[Moon Dawg]

   Dennis doesn't look great here by any means, but I've seen people in similar straits looking far worse.

   OCD personality traits can definitely go hand in hand with use of substances. The obsessive element can lead to both positive and negative pursuits. 

   

[Micha]

A few years ago, I did one of those "how long will you live ?" quizzes, based on health, lifestyle and such. Apparently I died when I was 37. 

Reminds me of a 1950s TV clip where Johnny Cash introduces his guitarist Luther Perkins to the audience with the words, "We haven't had the heart to tell him yet, but he's been dead for two years now."

[Gohi]

What exactly were Dennis' "problems"? He had a dad who communicated best with his fists, I was also lucky enough to grow up with a dad who thought nothing of punching the sh*t out of his sons and that has given me very mixed feelings about my childhood. It hasn't however gave me a free pass to become a drug addict. OK so he was unlucky enough to get hooked on the vices of Rock & Roll, however he was given chance after chance to clear up his life and he threw it all away. Sorry if that sounds harsh but there are a lot of people out there who have been given less breaks in life than Dennis Wilson.

Not only harsh but also ignorant. Cheers, mate.

[Micha]

What exactly were Dennis' "problems"? He had a dad who communicated best with his fists, I was also lucky enough to grow up with a dad who thought nothing of punching the sh*t out of his sons and that has given me very mixed feelings about my childhood. It hasn't however gave me a free pass to become a drug addict. OK so he was unlucky enough to get hooked on the vices of Rock & Roll, however he was given chance after chance to clear up his life and he threw it all away. Sorry if that sounds harsh but there are a lot of people out there who have been given less breaks in life than Dennis Wilson.

Not only harsh but also ignorant. Cheers, mate.

I hereby grant you a free pass to become a drug addict.

[pobfan]

So if I read one more piece about Dennis "dying before he was dead" and so on -- that's all nonsense.

The original quote regarding Dennis being "dead" a couple of years before his body actually was deceased...  came from Barbara Wilson...it's in the Endless Harmony documentary. I'd never tell her that her perspective is nonsense. I've spoken to her about this in person and she saw the essence of him completely disappear prior to his actual death...and that's how she could best describe it.

Jon - I've always wondered which relationship had more of an effect on Dennis's personal and professional life, for better or for worse...Barbara's or Karen's? Sure, a good portion of POB was influenced by his relationship with Karen, but Dennis was really coming into his own with lots of emotional tunes while he was still with Barbara (Barbara, Forever, Cuddle Up, WIBNTLA, etc).
What are your thoughts on this?

[Mike's Beard]

What exactly were Dennis' "problems"? He had a dad who communicated best with his fists, I was also lucky enough to grow up with a dad who thought nothing of punching the sh*t out of his sons and that has given me very mixed feelings about my childhood. It hasn't however gave me a free pass to become a drug addict. OK so he was unlucky enough to get hooked on the vices of Rock & Roll, however he was given chance after chance to clear up his life and he threw it all away. Sorry if that sounds harsh but there are a lot of people out there who have been given less breaks in life than Dennis Wilson.

Not only harsh but also ignorant. Cheers, mate.

Ignorant of what exactly? He wasn't mentally ill like Brian, he wasn't locked in his room afraid to wash because he thought the taps were full of acid, he wasn't hearing his dead fathers voice in his head telling him he was going to die. The fact is Dennis had full control of his mental facilities and was in charge of every decision he chose to make. He and he alone chose to keep pumping the booze and drugs into his system rather than get clean and be around to watch his kids grow up. Stop making excuses for the guy just because he wrote some great music, mate.

[Micha]

The fact is Dennis had full control of his mental facilities and was in charge of every decision he chose to make.

Give me proof of that before I condemn Dennis. I assume you knew him personally very well to make that statement?

[Mike's Beard]

Show me proof where he showed signs of obvious mental disorders before he started hitting the booze too much. Was Dennis suffering breakdown after breakdown? Was he committed to mental hospitals ever?

[Gohi]

What exactly were Dennis' "problems"? He had a dad who communicated best with his fists, I was also lucky enough to grow up with a dad who thought nothing of punching the sh*t out of his sons and that has given me very mixed feelings about my childhood. It hasn't however gave me a free pass to become a drug addict. OK so he was unlucky enough to get hooked on the vices of Rock & Roll, however he was given chance after chance to clear up his life and he threw it all away. Sorry if that sounds harsh but there are a lot of people out there who have been given less breaks in life than Dennis Wilson.

Not only harsh but also ignorant. Cheers, mate.

Ignorant of what exactly? He wasn't mentally ill like Brian, he wasn't locked in his room afraid to wash because he thought the taps were full of acid, he wasn't hearing his dead fathers voice in his head telling him he was going to die. The fact is Dennis had full control of his mental facilities and was in charge of every decision he chose to make. He and he alone chose to keep pumping the booze and drugs into his system rather than get clean and be around to watch his kids grow up. Stop making excuses for the guy just because he wrote some great music, mate.

"I got abused and I'm not a rockstar, why is this guy more depressed than me?"

Mental health and addiction aren't things that people only succumb to because their problems are bigger than yours. Everybody's different and you have no idea what else Dennis might have felt or been going through in his life. Just because he didn't go to a mental hospital didn't mean he wasn't suffering. It doesn't excuse what he did but it provides some background. You generalize and use such iron-clad statements in your descriptions of Dennis. The man had demons, some of which we'll never know about (nor should we.)

[Mike's Beard]

People talk about the guy as if he went through life with this huge fucking crucifix strapped to his back. 

[Jon Stebbins]

What exactly were Dennis' "problems"? He had a dad who communicated best with his fists, I was also lucky enough to grow up with a dad who thought nothing of punching the sh*t out of his sons and that has given me very mixed feelings about my childhood. It hasn't however gave me a free pass to become a drug addict. OK so he was unlucky enough to get hooked on the vices of Rock & Roll, however he was given chance after chance to clear up his life and he threw it all away. Sorry if that sounds harsh but there are a lot of people out there who have been given less breaks in life than Dennis Wilson.

Not only harsh but also ignorant. Cheers, mate.

Ignorant of what exactly? He wasn't mentally ill like Brian, he wasn't locked in his room afraid to wash because he thought the taps were full of acid, he wasn't hearing his dead fathers voice in his head telling him he was going to die. The fact is Dennis had full control of his mental facilities and was in charge of every decision he chose to make. He and he alone chose to keep pumping the booze and drugs into his system rather than get clean and be around to watch his kids grow up. Stop making excuses for the guy just because he wrote some great music, mate.

Actually he did have a foundation of emotional issues that were very similar to Brian's and were generated by many of the same things. Dennis' earliest memory was of being punched and thrown across the room by his dad, so he was probably 3 or 4 years old when that memory imprinted. He lived in fear...like Brian. Unlike Brian he challenged the fear with a tough exterior. But he was also prone to crying fits. I've had family members tell me DW would wake up in a cold sweat in a panic thinking his dad was going to kill him. He handled his mental issues differently than Brian, more of a confrontational type, take it head on kind of a guy...but that made him often violent and edgy, even paranoid at times. There was other baggage. He had a stuttering problem when he was young. He had giant inadequacy issues that never went away. Again mostly due to his father. He was an outsider within his own family. He was pre-disposed to addiction, alcoholism. That started earlier than most people know. He may have had some motor damage from a narcotic overdose and/or a concussion when he was a young teen. Part of how he masked his problems was to get buzzed on whatever...cigarettes, booze, pills, and on and on....but that became an ever increasing hole that got harder and harder to climb out of. No he didn't lock himself in a room and sleep and eat all day. He put on the persona of cool, and tough, and flippant...but inside he was being eaten alive just like his brother. And he did have his dead father's voice in his ear pretty much 24/7.

I'm sure some people will look at the above comments as an apologist attempt. But these things are part of Dennis' makeup. There was another side...sometimes he was sober, and happy, and in control of his demons...but that was always fleeting. the dark side always cycled back around. very similar to brian, who had periods of "normalcy"...people use those as examples that Brian must  be exaggerating or faking his problems. Not the case. Mental illness is not a constant flow...it pulsates, and ebbs, and when you least expect it it comes crashing down on you and kicks your ass. It wears you down. Both guys were sick, probably from nearly the same thing, but it lived in them in different ways.

[Mike's Beard]

I don't dispute what you have written Jon but I think there is a rather wide mark between personality problems and full blown mental illness. Dennis had a shitty childhood but was also lucky enough to have a genius for a brother who made music that in time whisked him far away from the root cause and enabled him to live the kind of life most people only get to dream about. Most old school music stars had drug/drink problems in the 70's and 80's; Dennis was hardly unique in that respect - in fact it's probably quicker to list rock stars of that era who didn't succumb to addiction of some sort. Do they all blame it on some unresolved childhood trauma or do most of them just admit that they were too stupid/wasted to notice when the party was over? Dennis needed to take a good look in the mirror, admit that he was the problem and deal with it or reach out to those that could help him. He did neither and to constantly paint him as some kind of martyr I find is rather grandiose and a disservice to people that have made the effort to overcome obstacles in their lives.

[CenturyDeprived]

I don't dispute what you have written Jon but I think there is a rather wide mark between personality problems and full blown mental illness. Dennis had a shitty childhood but was also lucky enough to have a genius for a brother who made music that in time whisked him far away from the root cause and enabled him to live the kind of life most people only get to dream about. Most old school music stars had drug/drink problems in the 70's and 80's; Dennis was hardly unique in that respect - in fact it's probably quicker to list rock stars of that era who didn't succumb to addiction of some sort. Do they all blame it on some unresolved childhood trauma or do most of them just admit that they were too stupid/wasted to notice when the party was over? Dennis needed to take a good look in the mirror, admit that he was the problem and deal with it or reach out to those that could help him. He did neither and to constantly paint him as some kind of martyr I find is rather grandiose and a disservice to people that have made the effort to overcome obstacles in their lives.

IMHO... I truly, sincerely applaud those who have gone through hellish childhoods and have come out on top in the end. People who have done so deserve to be lauded and respected for triumphing over adversity. Absolutely. But is it really necessary to put down others (who also had hellish childhoods, and unfortunately later succumbed to demons) in order to make those who have triumphed feel better about what they themselves have achieved? Yes, sadly, Dennis did squander significant amount of good fortune that he came across in his life. But it’s not as simple as just viewing his eventual plight in solely that way.

I think it’s important to have sincere empathy and a deep understanding of the fact that neither you, I or anyone else will ever know the true stories of what other people (like Dennis, and countless others who were victims of abuse) experienced in their lives which could effect them in different ways. No matter how much research or stories we can hear about his life, only Dennis knew the true story. Everyone's story is unique. The eventual negative effects of abuse can differ from person to person, and some people aren’t able to pick up the pieces and overcome the resulting trauma in their lifetimes.

A person like Dennis’ emotional support system (or lack thereof) from family, friends, etc, as it pertained to the specific abuse (and acknowledgement of his feelings, or lack thereof) is an important factor to consider. Some people are more sensitive, scar deeply on an emotional level more easier than others, and these factors are related to both environment and their own predetermined chemical makeup of their brains. Ultimately, I don’t think anyone should be putting Dennis down by judgmentally proclaiming “He should’ve done this” to have cleaned up… it’s far more complicated (in ways that could only be understood by Dennis himself) than something which can be summed up in a sweeping statement about what he woulda/shoulda/coulda done.

[rab2591]

I don't dispute what you have written Jon but I think there is a rather wide mark between personality problems and full blown mental illness. Dennis had a shitty childhood but was also lucky enough to have a genius for a brother who made music that in time whisked him far away from the root cause and enabled him to live the kind of life most people only get to dream about. Most old school music stars had drug/drink problems in the 70's and 80's; Dennis was hardly unique in that respect - in fact it's probably quicker to list rock stars of that era who didn't succumb to addiction of some sort. Do they all blame it on some unresolved childhood trauma or do most of them just admit that they were too stupid/wasted to notice when the party was over? Dennis needed to take a good look in the mirror, admit that he was the problem and deal with it or reach out to those that could help him. He did neither and to constantly paint him as some kind of martyr I find is rather grandiose and a disservice to people that have made the effort to overcome obstacles in their lives.

I think it bears stating that drinking heavy amounts of alcohol does actually rewire the brain...which is why it's considered an illness, both medically and psychologically. To whitewash such addiction is asinine. And sometimes it's not as simple as taking "a good look in the mirror". If Dennis had the psychological power to overcome his addiction, he would probably be with us today. But, obviously, that didn't happen.

[Sound of Free]

Even as completely addicted to alcohol as Dennis was at the end, I think he could have been detoxed under proper medical supervision. I also think he would have rebounded physically. Seeing some episodes of "Intervention" on TV, it amazes me how quickly you can improve physically once you get clean.

The key with Dennis would have been staying clean. I think the only way he could have stayed clean was to deal with his issues with Murry and any others causing his "empty" feeling inside through therapy. He was self-medicating with booze and drugs. He never actually dealt with the cause.

Dennis was reconciling with Murry when Murry died. Maybe if Murry had lived a little longer and Dennis had been able to get to a better place with Murry, then Dennis could have put his biggest demon behind him. But his skipping Murry's funeral showed that he never made his peace, and it affected him the rest of his life.

[retrokid67]

I wonder what made him want to start drinking again and when because I read (somewhere around 1965/66) that he said he can't afford to drink cuz he had too many problems already.  I also heard an interview when they were in Japan back in '66 and he said "I think it's the kids that are the troublemakers, the ones that drink and carry on that make it bad for everybody." 

[rab2591]

I wonder what made him want to start drinking again and when because I read (somewhere around 1965/66) that he said he can't afford to drink cuz he had too many problems already.  I also heard an interview when they were in Japan back in '66 and he said "I think it's the kids that are the troublemakers, the ones that drink and carry on that make it bad for everybody."  

I suspect the truth behind these type of quotes from the mid-60s. There is a quote from Brian during that era where he says something like "Drinking isn't cool and isn't fun" yet he had been known to sneak beers at the drive-ins during his youth (though the only drugs you hear about Brian doing in the mid-60s are marijuana and LSD). Could someone more knowledgeable comment on Brian's and Dennis's drinking habits during the mid 60s?

[Lonely Summer]

At first I thought "that date has to be wrong, Brian was thin in 1983"! And agreed, Dennis looks pretty good here, although in '83 I'd say Carl looked the best of the group.

[Micha]

But is it really necessary to put down others (who also had hellish childhoods, and unfortunately later succumbed to demons) in order to make those who have triumphed feel better about what they themselves have achieved?

...

I think it’s important to have sincere empathy and a deep understanding of the fact that neither you, I or anyone else will ever know the true stories of what other people (like Dennis, and countless others who were victims of abuse) experienced in their lives which could effect them in different ways. No matter how much research or stories we can hear about his life, only Dennis knew the true story.

...

Ultimately, I don’t think anyone should be putting Dennis down by judgmentally proclaiming “He should’ve done this” to have cleaned up… it’s far more complicated (in ways that could only be understood by Dennis himself) than something which can be summed up in a sweeping statement about what he woulda/shoulda/coulda done.

Absolutely. Yes.

Show me proof where he showed signs of obvious mental disorders before he started hitting the booze too much. Was Dennis suffering breakdown after breakdown? Was he committed to mental hospitals ever?

Ever heard of "presumption of innocence"? I hope you don't work as a judge or a teacher. You'd make a good executioner though. I'm not happy that you had a very tough childhood, quite the contrary, as it seems to have made you bitter and cope with it by looking down at people who you rate as inferior to you in terms of moral or will-power. That seems to me the "huge fucking crucifix strapped to your back". You need to take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are in a position to judge someone you don't know more about than his public image. Didn't someone who is pretty well respected say don't condemn so you don't get condemned yourself or something like that?

I need to remember I have to look at the mirror some time today and think about how I can improve on my own faults.

[Andrew G. Doe]

FWIW, I had the happiest of childhoods: only child from father's second marriage, loving (if slightly older) parents who instilled in me a huge love of books and nature as well as good manners*, due respect for my elders and authority and a general sense of my own self-worth. Neither of them drank although the both smoked like chimneys (which is why I never have). I was never beaten or abused in any way whatsoever and, if not strictly speaking spoilt, then certainly indulged. Then in my late teens, I managed to go spectacularly off the rails and dove head-first into the social scene of my hometown, with the results as posted below. It's much more complex than "shitty childhood = addict". Nature, not nurture, to some extent. I loved my folks, and hated the pain and shame I brought them... but I couldn't stop, whatever they - or anyone else - said, at least until the doctor pointed out I was headed for the exit door on the high-speed Handbasket Express. I'd like to think that in later days, they were proud of me.

Mind, they never did get me to eat liver or anything green that wasn't lettuce.  

[* no, really...]

[Mike's Beard]

Ever heard of "presumption of innocence"? I hope you don't work as a judge or a teacher. You'd make a good executioner though. I'm not happy that you had a very tough childhood, quite the contrary, as it seems to have made you bitter and cope with it by looking down at people who you rate as inferior to you in terms of moral or will-power. That seems to me the "huge fucking crucifix strapped to your back". You need to take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are in a position to judge someone you don't know more about than his public image. Didn't someone who is pretty well respected say don't condemn so you don't get condemned yourself or something like that?

I need to remember I have to look at the mirror some time today and think about how I can improve on my own faults.

I have faults Micha, the same as the next guy and freely admit it. Nowhere am I looking down on anybody, but I think it is fair enough to ask does personal responsibility and accountability factor into the equation anywhere here? There is just zero hard evidence that Dennis' drink/drug problems materialised because of father issues and to automatically give him a free pass because of them is a cop out to me.

[Gohi]

Ever heard of "presumption of innocence"? I hope you don't work as a judge or a teacher. You'd make a good executioner though. I'm not happy that you had a very tough childhood, quite the contrary, as it seems to have made you bitter and cope with it by looking down at people who you rate as inferior to you in terms of moral or will-power. That seems to me the "huge fucking crucifix strapped to your back". You need to take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are in a position to judge someone you don't know more about than his public image. Didn't someone who is pretty well respected say don't condemn so you don't get condemned yourself or something like that?

I need to remember I have to look at the mirror some time today and think about how I can improve on my own faults.

I have faults Micha, the same as the next guy and freely admit it. Nowhere am I looking down on anybody, but I think it is fair enough to ask does personal responsibility and accountability factor into the equation anywhere here? There is just zero hard evidence that Dennis' drink/drug problems materialised because of father issues and to automatically give him a free pass because of them is a cop out to me.

Maybe stop worrying so much about how people remember a man who died 30 years ago.

[mikeddonn]

I agree with Andrew.  A good childhood doesn't mean you won't go off the rails or vice versa!  Dennis wasn't the first or last rock star to die young.  They all had differing childhoods I would imagine.  When he was here he made a big impact and left a wonderful legacy, but unfortunately couldn't turn it around at the end.

[lostbeachboy]

Very haunting pics...

Man that guy is big!